Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

[Robby]

@Jaime:

You don't see Oda spending a little more time on some other fight this arc?

Not really. Katakuri is the opponent for Luffy and they've been going full on. If anyone else was going to get an opponent they would have been paired up by now.

More complications for the cake and providing a time for Sanji to shine are still possible though.
@Seafarer33:

Maybe there's been a change of plans on Oda's side and additional adventure(s) will unravel before the crew reunites in Wano. Carefree exploration of some New World island to relax in between tension-heavy arcs, additional focus on the Zou team before they make it to Wano, Weevil tailing Luffy's group, catching up with whatever Fujitora is up to, … Even without Reverie, there are many ways the story can go before Wano officially starts that wouldn't feel like a complete detour and would still help build up the upcoming events.

A short mini arc is perfectly possible, but Oda's been pushing the Wano and Kaidou buildup pretty hard. A little subversion aside from Reverie is possible, but I don't forsee us getting Fishman Island style delays again.
@Koliber:

On one hand you're right, and that's exactly why cake battle would be better. But on the other, everything SHs did for the last 10 chapters was to endure until the cake is done. If Sanji manages to do it mid-battle in, I don't know, half an hour, wouldn't that make them look like complete fools? Especially in the situation The Human Typhoon described, so Sanji fighting against BMP and not allying with them like in the original Greg's theory. And while I'm not the biggest fan of Luffy escaping the mirrorland, it's only been pointless if he doesn't beat him in the end, since he managed to get something out of this battle already.

If there's been any major pressure or dramatics on Sanji's end, you'd be right. But it's been completely off camera-ed. In fiction, sometimes the best way to make a story exciting is to take the cast's only hope, the thing they were counting on to save the day, and then completely killing that, which creates a sense of "Oh shit, now what?"

In this case there'd be no time to make a proper giant cake again, but to make a small thing, or even a slice? There's time for that… and it'd be a much more desperate thing. Honestly, it's been going too smoothly on Sanji's end, there's gotta be some sort of hiccup for his part of the story before it's done.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Long:

Ive never heard aything about the king bull being shot in the heart, he was just shot, and that was survivable for quite some time in one piece

It was in the scanlations at the time. I don't recall if that was in the official translations, it's been a few years.

@Long:

She still deliberately beat her kid for looking like someone she didnt like, thats pretty fucked up and I dont think goes with oda's general theme of mothers.

Exactly. She's been on the WRONG PATH. She's making her children hate her and betray her. But that's not how Oda treats mothers, and not what she'll be in the end after learning her lesson.

[ARTEMlS]

My guess is whatever the final outcome of the cooking is Big Mom will be so completely deprived of any remaining sanity that she just will not recognize it as the cake. Therefore, it has to be fed forcefully which leads to Luffy and Katakuri teaming up.

[Robby]

@Koliber:

It being a "full fight" is exactly why I thin it won't end like this. You're thinking about rematch, but according to Luffy the fight is still underway. There's no way we're ever getting them seriously fight after the arc ends, this arc fleshed Katakuri and BMP too much, they're not coming back as villains anymore if previous 20 years of manga are anything to go by. So it's either now or never. And if I was to guess, I'd say it's now. Teaming up to stop Mama would have been great, but we've reached the point after which it won't be satisfying conclusion (even if I'd probably like it more that way).

Katakuri doesn't need to be knocked unconcious for Luffy to win. Think back to Magellan, that had a different win condition. Luffy getting him onto his back and showing his superiority before they're forced to team up to stop BM would also work. Oda has driven the "never been on his back" and "never lost a fight" thing so hard that it doesn't have to be a full defeat to be a win.

[Count Mario]

@Seafarer33:

They certainly can and I wouldn't mind either possibility, but it doesn't change much to the core argument that a lot of things - 2 years' worth of chapters - can happen before any of the Straw Hats set foot on Wano. Maybe that's even for the better, because if part of the Wano Setup is taken care of on separate islands that each contain their mini-arc, then this may help avoiding a Dressrosian plot overload.

I'm tempted to say we're looking at a possible beginning of that. In Dressrosa a completely exhausted Luffy had to be carried at arm's length by other people while this time he's casually dodging Big Mom's rampage and some of her top dogs while using gear 3 (I'm going to assume he can do gear 2 as well). The 10 minutes down still stands, but there's some progress taking place. And maybe the repetition of this awkward running away is precisely what will make him look for a new way out.

That can work too. There can even be prior to that an intense pursuit where Luffy is trying to evade Big Mom by jumping back into the mirror world, only to find out that Katakuri is right on the other side each time which forces him to keep running until he eventually makes a mistake. But however it happens, I think there's been too much hype and focus on their fight for it not to reach a conclusion of sorts before the arc's over. Not necessarily the trademark pulverizing final blow since this fight isn't where the arc's main stakes are, but something that shows Luffy's evolved.

I get what you mean. But I am with Robby where I can't see Wano Country getting delayed by TWO whole years no matter how much Oda wants to focus on other things. I can't really see this arc lasting past Chapter 900, the Reverie being more than five chapters without Luffy present, or a mini-arc before Wano Country lasting any longer than Zou (and certainly not more than one mini-arc either).

Being able to still run is a bit of progress, but I still expect more. Especially since he only got away because of Brulee.

I agree and would actually love to see that since it advances the fight rather than go back to square one with a recharge provided by a cheat code.

[K. Kira XXIII]

I mentioned before that the cake being similar in appearance to the one his brothers trashed when he was a kid would be nice to close this arc.

If the other cake does not get destroyed, then I can imagine Big Mom eating and being super happy and then everyone spots Luffy eating too.

Well if he does two arcs like Whole Cake Island and Zou that would be 100 chapters that is roughly two years.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

@Robby:

Katakuri doesn't need to be knocked unconcious for Luffy to win. Think back to Magellan, that had a different win condition. Luffy getting him onto his back and showing his superiority before they're forced to team up to stop BM would also work. Oda has driven the "never been on his back" and "never lost a fight" thing so hard that it doesn't have to be a full defeat to be a win.

Same i dont think the fight wont stop solely because "my back!" of course but big mom is gonna kill everyone if we dont stop this and help protect the cake / our pals from big mom

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@Greg:

Wait… when did I say Katakuri isn't special?

I think this is an issue that's persisted throughout the years.

I say something and ESL posters (not a sleight, you're all rockstars to me) misinterpret what I'm saying.

Katakuri....is.....awesome.

When I say 'special' I mean 'special paramecia' those are Jinbei's words not mine.

And I'm not disagreeing that he is a special paramecia b/c that point is irrefutable.

But.... I'm simply saying that there's no way Oda changed his fruit type due to fan response.

Totally dig Katakuri. I like him as a villain's villain more than anyone in the New World so far I think!

Good, good, good choice!
It's just that for One Piece to have a truly formidable villain to be defeated, it can't have a ounces of comedy, if you ask me. Least if Luffy is the one chosen to defeat it, because there it appears the special attribute that Oda gives to villains like Buggy and Caesar, and note that in both fights, Luffy was helped.

So my point to start the quarrel was because you were indicating the purpose of Luffy to provoke Katakuri's defeat, which is quite different from Luffy's victory, surely not for readers, but for Oda and me, it's important.
I precisely saw it in Impel Down with Magellan and Hannyabal's fall, both comedy resource, were taken by the ID's wickest floor and the great antagonist respectively… so there's characters that are special, despite what dialogues might state, because with comedy and recent interviews and info from Oda, the man cherishes comedy more than anything.

So, if Katakuri got the comedy side, the creepy side, the serious side and completely takes the position from the madness coming from the strongest character of the arc, in order to deliver an unpredictable and impressive conclusion, therefore infusing a character with more than could others receive from Oda, is because he is putting the intermezzo in charge of Katakuri, and that makes him special, to the level of portraying Luffy's victory rather than his defeat, because you know very well that there's plenty of ways to take down someone in One Piece.

I'd still think that the fans are the main point of that change of taxonomy, but not exactly for their responses, but for the plot to be great for them, as i said Katakuri holds a huge responsability, the change from serious clairvoyance to the relentless terminator is too forced, and i love it thought. It was a amazing gamble, and the man has the tools to exactly not understimate Luffy, thing that sadly Doflamingo did.

[MasterKingJC]

Shobu, I really can't tell if you're being overly verbose on purpose or by accident.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@MasterKingJC:

Shobu, I really can't tell if you're being overly verbose on purpose or by accident.

It is on purpose D:
When I talk seriously, i like to stretch and repeat my ideas to be understood and maybe putting you in the same wavelength that me.

[MasterKingJC]

@Shobu:

It is on purpose D:
When I talk seriously, i like to stretch and repeat my ideas to be understood and maybe putting you in the same wavelength that me.

It's having the complete opposite effect on me. lol

[uniaka ikuzakas]

This post is deleted!

[Greg]

Thanks for asking my thoughts!
I tweeted my basic thoughts and livestreamed about it for an hour and a half. (Not archived)

Highly suggest you follow me on those mediums if you don't already.

[Don Quichotte De Flamingo]

@K.:

I mentioned before that the cake being similar in appearance to the one his brothers trashed when he was a kid would be nice to close this arc.

If the other cake does not get destroyed, then I can imagine Big Mom eating and being super happy and then everyone spots Luffy eating too.

While BM definitely has to get out of her rage, i also think Sanji deciding to give his capt´n such a delicious cake, especially after Luffy comes back beat up, would be a great gesture.
Maybe Sanji gives it to BM, but also giving Luffy a good piece of it to demonstrate, my capt´n has the right to eat YOUR wedding cake.
Wouldn´t surprise me, when Luffy demands even a bigger share of the cake from BM and "orders" that everyone should have a taste, which makes BM snap out of her tantrum and make her remember her dream and what she has done.
By that BM´s dream comes true of everyone sharing a meal with her, while also making her accept Luffy as a capt´n she respects now.

[K. Kira XXIII]

@Don:

While BM definitely has to get out of her rage, i also think Sanji deciding to give his capt´n such a delicious cake, especially after Luffy comes back beat up, would be a great gesture.

I am not denying Big Mom from getting out of her rage. But since the arc started, I always thought that it was important for Sanji to cook for Luffy. He kind of did it with the bento box. Considering how damaged it was, it barely suffices. The great celebratory cooking can be done after the arc, but it will still not be as outstanding in my opinion.

Maybe Sanji gives it to BM, but also giving Luffy a good piece of it to demonstrate, my capt´n has the right to eat YOUR wedding cake.

That works as well, but if Luffy is going to get in that cake action, I expect him to just show up eating and everyone freaks out about it.

Wouldn´t surprise me, when Luffy demands even a bigger share of the cake from BM and "orders" that everyone should have a taste, which makes BM snap out of her tantrum and make her remember her dream and what she has done.

We have still to see how Big Mom will find out about Caramel, even with Streussen's memories, Caramel did not reveal her true nature to any of them. Stussy is a factor, but it is harder to believe that they would capture her, unlike the knocked out Streussen. It wouldn't be surprising that CP0 double crossed Caramel because she was demanding too much. And the tragedy Streussen and the giant saw were CP0 taking Caramel and the kids, while Big Mom just ate. The part with Streussen asking Big Mom not to get close could also be because when they tried taking her, they got destroyed in one punch.

By that BM´s dream comes true of everyone sharing a meal with her, while also making her accept Luffy as a capt´n she respects now.

Personally, I'd rather not, or if it comes to be, to be after the Straw Hats leave. I would rather the Straw Hats escape the blockade and Luffy beating Katakuri while they leave the cake behind.

[imperioonepiece]

@Greg:

Thanks for asking my thoughts!
I tweeted my basic thoughts and livestreamed about it for an hour and a half. (Not archived)

Highly suggest you follow me on those mediums if you don't already.

What is your opinion about Oda's recent interview about Wano starting in 1 or 2 years?

[Roronoa Zacho]

@Greg:

(…)

The majority of evil things the Charlotte Family has knowingly done were in the realm of being reasonably understandable.

This is because:

• They were being done to evil people/organizations.
• They were being done to people/organizations that invaded, double-crossed her or broke agreements with her and knew the consequences.
• They were under orders from Mom that were related to above reasons.

If anyone takes issue with that sentiment please note my choice of words there ;)

But Katakuri attacking the patissiers was a purely sadistic and evil act.

It's hard to explain that away and make him a redeemable character after that. Even if they wind up being 'okay' that act is still very difficult to sweep under the rug.

SO.

THAT SAID.

I'm not entirely sure whether things can end well with Mom in this arc. It's still possible, but Katakuri has basically pissed in the milkshake of any festivities that might accompany a happy ending with the Charlottes.

Not impossible! I still think it can happen! But…it's a little bit more difficult now...

Hm, Luffy could be mad at Katakuri for attacking those Patissiers, but maybe just because they can make Food. I remember the Boa sisters not being any nicer than Katakuri, before Luffy covered Sonia's back. Luffy's Intentions go odd ways sometimes. He could end up covering Katakuri's mouth, so Katakuri owes one to Luffy (JK). Aside from the Patissiers, Katakuri protected his younger siblings. He really has a lot in common with Luffy.

I see less potential redemption from Perospero than I see from Katakuri. He lost an arm during the fight with the SHs. Carrot and/or Jinbe maybe Needs to knock him down.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

And one other Thing I already posted a few days ago. If Sanji's cream is really that good, what prevents BM from keeping Sanji for herself? Pudding will have to erase a lot of BM's memories so the SHs can leave peacefully. All her memories from the wedding, and maybe even the Lola-Chiffon-Loki-stuff.

[Greg]

While the gorgon sisters are a good point to bring up, please remember that what they did was reversible.
Now, I'm not saying those patisseries are dead.

*But the attack was a vicious and easily potentially deadly one that caused great suffering if they're human.

Boa's stone art, while a d*ck move, was not the same league.

Good point to bring up though!!!

[Shift]

Speaking of deaths, Greg, do you think Pedro's sacrifice might actually be the real deal this time? We still have his possible Homie to think about, but for his actual body, it seems like a lot of the characters have all implied it to be true.

[andre]

@Shift:

Speaking of deaths, Greg, do you think Pedro's sacrifice might actually be the real deal this time? We still have his possible Homie to think about, but for his actual body, it seems like a lot of the characters have all implied it to be true.

I really hope so. It's funny to consider the effect the no-death policy has had on Oda's readers. I never remember wanting so many characters I liked to die so much before this.

[Roronoa Zacho]

@Greg:

While the gorgon sisters are a good point to bring up, please remember that what they did was reversible.
Now, I'm not saying those patisseries are dead.

*But the attack was a vicious and easily potentially deadly one that caused great suffering if they're human.

Boa's stone art, while a d*ck move, was not the same league.

Good point to bring up though!!!

Thanks, man. Until Luffy covered Sonia's back, the Boa Sisters have been pretty villainous. They even would have smashed the statutes of Margaret and co if Luffy wouldn't have used his CoC (unintentional). I remember one line well (Luffy to Hancock):"You disgust me!" Oda showed us that no matter how pretty you are, if you act like a dck, you ARE a dck in Luffy's eyes.

What Oda didn't Show us is Luffy's reaction to Katakuri's d*ck-move. Maybe Luffy was busy figuring out how to beat that guy.

Trying to speak Katakuri free from any guilt: Katakuri also completely lost it during this Moment. He went from the most badass, super-cool Yonkou-commander to a Buggy-esque behavior ("who has a big red round nose!?").

But I'm not really seeing Luffy covering Katakuri's mouth like he covered Sonia's back just to save Kata's "Reputation". Nevertheless, Luffy could pull it off, because his Actions (rarely) seem pretty odd. At least covering Sonia's back did back then.

It's a real Pity, that Zoro isn't fighting Katakuri. He tends to almost make friends with his defeated enemies. Except for Aum (or Ohm), the Guy with the dial sword.

I'd say the ones unredeemable in this arc are Perospero, Katakuri and maybe the likes of Mon't dor and Smoothie. The Kids concerned about BM's yonkou-pride, which is at stake right now. But those are ironically quite the same, who should be happy, that Sanji stopped BM's tantrum. Otherwise she would destroy all of Tottoland.

I really wonder if the clash with BM gets delayed until Elbaf or things resolve themselves within Tottoland.

[Jaime]

Greg commented on the death in his past live stream.

Basically he can go either way, Oda spent a lot more time on it making it possible, but Oda is Oda.

At the end of the day only Oda knows if he's really dead or not, not the characters.

[auem]

Greg,how seriously do you take the comment of Oda about Akainu being so strong that he could easily conclude the story/found One Piece in a year if he was to be the protagonist? Since it put his power level completely on a different scale to the rest…..

[Razh]

I think Akainu was just an example. It could have been any of the admirals or emperors.

Since he's among top 10 or maybe even top 5 fighters in the world, it's only natural he could force his way through obstacles a lot easier.

[uniaka ikuzakas]

Yes,but he would only force his way through SOME obstacles, the yonkous would be as hard to defeat. And since yonkous are equal, none managed to beat other, then he was talking about akainu in particular. Other yonkous would still get stuck where they are now.

Anyway, I just Wonder how akainu would recruit robin in his crew, because he would need her to finish the story for the poneglyphs.

I would sure read a spin off story with – lava cap pirates//

[andre]

@uniaka:

Yes,but he would only force his way through SOME obstacles, the yonkous would be as hard to defeat. And since yonkous are equal, none managed to beat other, then he was talking about akainu in particular. Other yonkous would still get stuck where they are now.

Anyway, I just Wonder how akainu would recruit robin in his crew, because he would need her to finish the story for the poneglyphs.

I would sure read a spin off story with – lava cap pirates//

I interpret it more as if a character like Akainu got protagonist treatment and was at the same relative strength, then it would be easy. The only other way I could see it happening is an Akainu with his current view of justice knowing all the secrets of the world government he's bound to, decides to do it.

[No swords style best style]

If the story followed someone with the strength of an admiral or emperor, they would just one-shot all the enemies the SHs faced until the New World. Well, some of the warlords/warlord level guys like Enel might put up a bit of a fight, but would still likely be curbstomped. Also, Akainu in particular would just skip over helping people if he was a pirate without any sense of justice, or take the most "straightforward" approach if he acted as he did now. Like, perhaps lava-bombing all of Rainbase after Vivi tells him where Crocodile is, which would still take less time.

[Roronoa Zacho]

@No:

If the story followed someone with the strength of an admiral or emperor, they would just one-shot all the enemies the SHs faced until the New World. Well, some of the warlords/warlord level guys like Enel might put up a bit of a fight, but would still likely be curbstomped. Also, Akainu in particular would just skip over helping people if he was a pirate without any sense of justice, or take the most "straightforward" approach if he acted as he did now. Like, perhaps lava-bombing all of Rainbase after Vivi tells him where Crocodile is, which would still take less time.

This is exactly what i would draw in a fanfiction, if i were to draw OP with Akainu as Protagonist. Vivi would cry about the casualties and the collateral damage and Akainu would be like "stop whining! I defeated that Guy in the Most efficient way."

[Shobu Yoruichi]

Oda trolling the fandom??
Nice! If Luffy swaps places with Akainu, then Luffy would take the job of killing Ace…

Oh boy shut up and take my money i'd love to see that.

[Greg]

@Roronoa:

Thanks, man. Until Luffy covered Sonia's back, the Boa Sisters have been pretty villainous. They even would have smashed the statutes of Margaret and co if Luffy wouldn't have used his CoC (unintentional). I remember one line well (Luffy to Hancock):"You disgust me!" Oda showed us that no matter how pretty you are, if you act like a dck, you ARE a dck in Luffy's eyes.

What Oda didn't Show us is Luffy's reaction to Katakuri's d*ck-move. Maybe Luffy was busy figuring out how to beat that guy.

Trying to speak Katakuri free from any guilt: Katakuri also completely lost it during this Moment. He went from the most badass, super-cool Yonkou-commander to a Buggy-esque behavior ("who has a big red round nose!?").

But I'm not really seeing Luffy covering Katakuri's mouth like he covered Sonia's back just to save Kata's "Reputation". Nevertheless, Luffy could pull it off, because his Actions (rarely) seem pretty odd. At least covering Sonia's back did back then.

It's a real Pity, that Zoro isn't fighting Katakuri. He tends to almost make friends with his defeated enemies. Except for Aum (or Ohm), the Guy with the dial sword.

I'd say the ones unredeemable in this arc are Perospero, Katakuri and maybe the likes of Mon't dor and Smoothie. The Kids concerned about BM's yonkou-pride, which is at stake right now. But those are ironically quite the same, who should be happy, that Sanji stopped BM's tantrum. Otherwise she would destroy all of Tottoland.

I really wonder if the clash with BM gets delayed until Elbaf or things resolve themselves within Tottoland.

The important part is that she stated an intention to smash the statues.

Would she really have done that?

A few posts ago I talked about the importance of intentions.

They can easily be erased, shaded over, or explained.

Katakuri's instance was pure action and is therefore slightly more tricky to deal with. The easiest would to next see them bandaged up by Katakuri but even so, dark Oda, dark. (That is, if he will end up friendly to the strawhats)

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@auem:

Greg,how seriously do you take the comment of Oda about Akainu being so strong that he could easily conclude the story/found One Piece in a year if he was to be the protagonist? Since it put his power level completely on a different scale to the rest…..

I don't think it's something that could be interpreted any other way.

If any antagonist with influence, ambition and motivation had the physical prowess and facilities to do so, sure, it's totally possible… and uninteresting.

Hell, I could tell you how he could potentially end OP in a single chapter while still delivering on the promise of the title. It's not an interesting ending though.

[andre]

@Greg:

The important part is that she stated an intention to smash the statues.

Would she really have done that?

A few posts ago I talked about the importance of intentions.

They can easily be erased, shaded over, or explained.

Katakuri's instance was pure action and is therefore slightly more tricky to deal with. The easiest would to next see them bandaged up by Katakuri but even so, dark Oda, dark. (That is, if he will end up friendly to the strawhats)

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I don't think it's something that could be interpreted any other way.

If any antagonist with influence, ambition and motivation had the physical prowess and facilities to do so, sure, it's totally possible... and uninteresting.

Hell, I could tell you how he could potentially end OP in a single chapter while still delivering on the promise of the title. It's not an interesting ending though.

I'm interested in this, unless it's giving away something gthat we'd all much rather not know.

[ARTEMlS]

@Greg:

Would she really have done that?

However, while it wasn't fully executed, it definitely was more than just mere intention. It was a partial execution which got stopped solely by an outside force. Looked for me that she actually started the downwards movements in order to smash her.

The main difference between her and Kata is that a strong enough outside force interferred.

[Greg]

@ARTEMlS:

However, while it wasn't fully executed, it definitely was more than just mere intention. It was a partial execution which got stopped solely by an outside force. Looked for me that she actually started the downwards movements in order to smash her.

The main difference between her and Kata is that a strong enough outside force interferred.

Nah mate.

As long as its intention we never know how it might have gone.

She could have changed them back just before they were smashed, etc.

My point is, because those intentions were never fully carried out, we'll never know how it might have carried through and emotions that might have mistakenly lead characters to those conclusions can, in hindsight, inform characters performing potentially villainous actions of the error of what they were doing.

This is precisely why I've been so trusting of Mom and her family turning into (sooner or later) non-threatening characters. They talk the talk but rarely do they walk the walk. Even when they do, it can usually be explained.

But not in this case.

I'm not sure if I'm not properly putting my thoughts down but as an author, making a character sympathetic is much more difficult to do once violent actions have been carried out to fruition rather than simply threatened.

If Katakuri knew those patisseries were ultra tough I get that but there's no suggestion of that and Oda is always very careful to include that kind of info.

Again, nowhere am I saying Katakuri cannot be sympathetic. If you go back to my first post on the matter I'm just saying, it's much more difficult for Oda to portray him that way now.

[Brainyz]

Maybe Katakuro used COO to avoid their vital organs, and had the intention of having Pudding alter their memories later. But that will suggest Pudding actually knowing about his secret.

[Greg]

There are any number of explanations along that line Oda could use.

Either way you slice it though, damn. He just stabbed the f*** outta fodder NPCs for a very poor reason.

Also….

It's pretty funny that for over a year I was arguing vehemently that Mom and her family's actions could be rationalized but the one time I'm suggesting a member did something that can't easily be taken back, there are a lot of arguments against it.

Not complaining just a funny juxtaposition to find myself in.

[Long John Silvers Rayleigh]

Most importantly IMO if oda really wanted katakuri seen as a villain I think he would have brought attention to it by luffy, a more definite facial reaction or even (the honestly it's a been awhile) "those men were your crewmates, I hate people like you the most" shonen MC speeches

Im thinking the point of the scene might have been to so heavily contrast with his previous behavior so we could see the change and notice his behavior was off. Then that behavior continues of him being so upset he cant focus and luffy hits him hard a few times. It was supposed to seem out of nowhere because his calm and collectedness was off, without the chefs that'd be harder to show

[Greg]

That's precisely the point LJSR.

It's essential to Luffy recognizing Katakuri's 'weakness' due to his temperament change.

But despite his change, it was still a terrible thing to do. Do we agree?

Now that Katakuri has some down time I do wonder if we'll see him tend to them but whew! Whatta dark turn there!

[.access timeco.]

I think that scene could be easily explained if Oda really wants to end up having the BMP as "not bad people". Katakuri attacked the pâtissères out of despair, because in that moment all he could think about was not letting the truth about him leak out. It would be a different thing if he attacked them because he got mad and was just lashing his frustration on his underlings.

Oda could put that on "sheer despair" and actually use it to make Katakuri more relatable if he regrets it later. Actually, we could find out he tended to their wounds after Luffy left Mirro-world and in the end this scene would make him look more sympathetic than otherwise.

Either way, this is a weird arc for Luffy and the SH when it comes to their behavior as protagonists.

! They were ok with plotting BM's assassination in front of her family and using her only good memory of the past to make sure she would be killed as she was heartbroken. Luffy tried again and again to make sure it would work. That including Luffy "good allies" (in opposition to the "bad allies", the Firetank Pirates), the Sun Pirates, tying up Pekoms - Luffy's friend in the BMP - to make sure he wouldn't warn his "mama" she was going to be murdered. Plus, the SH didn't even gave a second thought about the whole family and thousands of civilians dying when the chateau fell, all we got was Bege celebrating the turn of events.
All of that just to say that Oda is depicting the SH more as "the good pirates" instead of just "good people" in this arc, so if he ever wants to make Luffy ignore the bad deeds of his allies, this seem to be the perfect time.
If Oda thinks the reader is going to accept Luffy allying with Bege after he actively tried to murder Pekoms twice (and we did accept that without much problem and even bought the notion of Bege being a caring father and husband after that), Katakuri's attack shouldn't carry much weigh.

[Greg]

Oda could put that on "sheer despair" and actually use it to make Katakuri more relatable if he regrets it later. Actually, we could find out he tended to their wounds after Luffy left Mirro-world and in the end this scene would make him look more sympathetic than otherwise.

Yup, I suggested these in an earlier post.

[desa]

@Greg:

There are any number of explanations along that line Oda could use.

Either way you slice it though, damn. He just stabbed the f*** outta fodder NPCs for a very poor reason.

Also….

It's pretty funny that for over a year I was arguing vehemently that Mom and her family's actions could be rationalized but the one time I'm suggesting a member did something that can't easily be taken back, there are a lot of arguments against it.

Not complaining just a funny juxtaposition to find myself in.

In the case of Kata I agree that Oda would do such a gruesome scene if not to make Kata an actual threat. But I could see it as a way to signify how he deserves to be defeat by Luffy. I don't think the scene has to turn Kata into someone with an awful relationship with the strawhats at the end but I also don't see Oda doing such scene without Kata receiving payback for such actions so it could simply be to justify his future beating.

As far as gruesome that turned cool I think we had Hachi and Ryuuma who has a real dick to Brook and his afro and presented as his tormenter in the past(he even broke his skull I think). By the end of the arc the incident could be water under the bridge or with some minor actions from Kata proving he care. I don't see them tending their wounds but maybe sharing his sweets or inviting them to his house or another llittle thing indicating the dynamic have changed.

[Greg]

As far as gruesome that turned cool I think we had Hachi and Ryuuma who has a real dick to Brook and his afro and presented as his tormenter in the past

Those two were particularly easy to explain away.

Hachi is a bit slow and was preeeetty easy to control/be influenced.

As for Ryuuma, the shadow controlling him completely eliminates any reason for doubt there.

Look, folks, the purpose of the scene was to serve as a major hint to his change in temperament.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have done it.

Not saying it was a poor choice.

Not saying I don't like it.

I'm saying it's a very cruel action by the character, one of the first from the family outside clear antagonists like Pudding, one that is not easily explained away and makes it difficult for the crew/reader to rationalize his actions.

Not impossible.

Can we please move on to a different topic? There's really nobody suggesting anything new or that technically doesn't gel with what I've suggested. It feels like we're retreading ground when I'm either saying the same thing every post or stating that I said the same thing earlier.

[Roronoa Zacho]

It's pretty hard to say wether or not BM and her family end up being good or non-threatening.
She took away 50 yrs from Pedro (and "passively" made him rip out his own eye).
Then she has this collecting Thing going on (ok, this fact saved Brook's boney ass though). And while Jinbe burnt the book with Luffy and Nami in it, there are still pleeenty of books in that library. If Mon't dor eats the cake as well and faints, you can cross this Point out, I guess.

Oh, and speaking of Jinbe:
Jinbe left BM and joins Luffy. A guy who brought BM a poneglyph as a gift.

Luckily the way HOW the tamatebako went off, FI should be save from BM.

Then she has this wheel (which wasn't shown "playing" yet). Is it just Darts or roulette? My best guess it is those 2 combined. One spins the wheel and then he has to throw a dart (or sth else) at this Spinning wheel. The area hit by then makes the Penalty.

On the other side, there is Pekoms, who is sometimes more on BM's side and sometimes more on Zou's side.
And we can thank Tamago, that all the Tarte-Ships and the flag ship are at sea now.

I wonder if one cake can make up for that. Right now, I assume Sanji's whipped cream will make BM faint and I hope Pudding is gonna Change some of BM's memories.
If BM turns neutral in the end I also cannot imagine how Oda will solve the mystery around Lola, Loki and Chiffon, unless Pudding just screwed with Lola's memories.

[Big Black Hole]

Neither the Shichibukai nor the Marines were presented as universally filled with evil figures, we had more of a balance in both groups of (anti)-herous and evildoers. And with the Yonko, we of course have Shanks. But we also have Blackbeard and Kaido, who are definitely set up as great villains. I would find it rather interesting if the whole situation with Big Mom would end up less threatening than it seems (compare it with Hancock's characterization without the "Falling-in-love"-thing). I think the author has a pretty rewarding opportunity there.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@Greg:

I'm saying it's a very cruel action by the character, one of the first from the family outside clear antagonists like Pudding, one that is not easily explained away and makes it difficult for the crew/reader to rationalize his actions.

So, along with the examples of Zacho, it means that Pudding has lost that attribute of antagonist, right?
She was pure evil, Oda put the tsundere status at the degree of bipolar personality, thus giving her a credit of being half good, only because one of her personalities is helping Sanji.
Explaining the true change of Oda to allow reasoning in Big Mom's eating disorder now, to truly become her an antagonist through and through.

[Greg]

So, along with the examples of Zacho, it means that Pudding has lost that attribute of antagonist, right?

Nope!
I wrote an entire article about how she's still not a good person and needs to atone for what she's done/pay for her crimes. She's gotta work to get rid of that villain status.

Just because she's going loopy over Sanji and is helping save her family doesn't account for all she's done.

And while Jinbe burnt the book with Luffy and Nami in it, there are still pleeenty of books in that library.

Oooh! This is pretty interesting. SO check this out! The prison and library are two completely separate locations.

The library is located high up on WCC while the prison is below. It was just a coincidence that two book locations were shown at once in that chapter.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@Greg:

Nope!
I wrote an entire article about how she's still not a good person and needs to atone for what she's done/pay for her crimes. She's gotta work to get rid of that villain status.

Just because she's going loopy over Sanji and is helping save her family doesn't account for all she's done.

I understand your point, but… there's one thing that will happen to Pudding, if she starts the way of atonement, and it would be very cliché. I'm going to the position of self-sacrifice against the very Big Mom for sake of Sanji, just as we know that in OP no antagonist really dies, she will fulfill her life thanks to that, and it will be very probable for her to awaken her third eye.

I really wouldn't want that, i just hope that Oda pulls a Hancock for Pudding, he can perfectly state that only for 'feeling love' is redeemable, and it would fit that sentence of 'Year of Sanji' to finally join the group of woman waiting for him, after his adventure (MAYBE) like Usopp and Luffy.

Now, i'd truly see your antagonist punishment to come at Judge, that man to me is really the worst human being there. Still, i think it won't happen because he's now outclassed by Mom, but it would be nice to see more divine retribution.

[Greg]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'antagonist punishment'.

Every villain will be punished, just in different ways (some physical, some emotional and some material) that involves the breaking of their spirit and acceptance of defeat.

I don't think Pudding will be 'punished' any more than any other villain. There simply needs to be an explanation for why her past actions can be forgiven.

[Nupas2312]

@Greg:

Watching those videos is bad for your brain. Would not suggest it.

Not to mention their illegality.

You'll get more out of a paragraph from Count Mario than from 30 mins of a YouTuber.

So, I didn't say I believe the theory (which I originally proposed a decade ago) but rather i said it depends whether or not they came from the moon or not.

Like most developments in the series, unless I feel strongly about a theory, I try to stay open to pretty much anything.

I believe the moon link is a strong one. But I'm not putting my foot down like I did with Sanji cake, the Mink/Wano connection, or Wano being Momotarou.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Kano?
It's totally China. Has that not been recognized by the English community? No question whatsoever. The 'flower' kanji used is a 花 (ka) but 華 (ka) also means 'flower' but also means 'Chinese'.

so your not a fan of youtuber theories?

im not either but I did like that one that Joy boy did.

Btw with Reverie coming after this WCI arc, do you believe that Luffy will be in it or that Reverie will be a small arc(and the first not counting the first) without Luffy in it?

if its the latter its gon be interesting to witness a Politically focused arc without Luffy, its gon prolly feel like those post Marinford chapters where we were showed what was going on with everyone else and no showing off luffy. But this time its gon focus on one location.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@The:

I really really really want the cake to get destroyed and Sanji to cake it again with battle against Oven but with the current'sarc standards looks unrealistic. Otherwise it would be they standard one piece way things are going

I remember reading one person's post that its likely that oven is there to mess up the food and everything planned causing Sanji and the chefs to make everything over again but instead of a whole cake just a slice.(But that slice is so good it knocks BM off her feet)

what do you mean by "Standard one piece way things are going" ?

[MasterKingJC]

Greg, I mentioned this briefly during your stream so now I'll go into more detail about Dragon Dragon Fruit: Model- Yamata no Orochi theory. I think there's enough evidence to suggest that Kaido might have this variation of the Dragon Dragon fruit.

• The symbol behind the skull of the Animal Kingdom Pirates' jolly roger looks similar to the kanji "八" eight.
• We know Kaido has been captured eighteen times.
• We know that he's been defeated seven times (being defeated on Wano would be the eighth time).
• In the legend, Orochi became drunk after drinking eight cups of sake. We see Kaido in a drunken stupor from drinking sake. There's even a kind of liquor named Kaido.

You mentioned that "orochi" translates into "serpent", but serpents and dragons are arguably interchangeable and most dragon myths are based on the likeness of reptiles/serpents. All the artwork of Yamata no Orochi also looks a lot like the Shenlong wavy dragon a lot of people expect Kaido to look like.

But then I recalled your statements about the creatures that Oda considers the coolest, a dragon and a lion. The solution to this that came to my mind was that each of Kaido's heads would take the form of a really strong animal.
This would be a way for Oda to have his cake and eat it too.
Each head would take the form of the strongest creatures in history, even fitting the theme of the Color Walks. A lion, an eagle, a shark….okay maybe not a shark, but you get the idea.
On top of the Oni resemblance, it seems like Kaido could be an amalgamation of the coolest mythological icons from Japanese mythos.

[Count Mario]

Didn't Sandersonia have a technique based on the Yamata no Orochi where she transforms her hair into seven extra snake heads? Not that this in any way decreases the chance that Kaido can have an Orochi Mythical Zoan Devil Fruit since Oda will often reuse the themes of his powers whenever he sees fit given how large the series is.

Even though I'm still thinking that Kaido is going to have a simple Shenron-esque eastern dragon Devil Fruit, the idea that JC presents with the recurring usage of "eight" and the multiple animal heads fitting the "Hundred Beasts" epithet sounds quite cool.

[KageKageKing]

I think Kaido turning into a giant snake with eight heads is too much for even Oda to put in. Kinda looks too hard to draw.