Not going to lie to you guys, you're arguments are valid for why bleach and naruto are rather horrible manga with a few moments of actual interest shining through, but if you read this thread long enough… Well eventually you'll start to like the two out of pure spite
Naruto and Bleach IV- Sexy time
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Not going to lie to you guys, you're arguments are valid for why bleach and naruto are rather horrible manga with a few moments of actual interest shining through, but if you read this thread long enough… Well eventually you'll start to like the two out of pure spite
The Naruto wallbangers page on TvTropes really takes the bullshit of the story and shoves them in your face, so you really can't ignore them anymore.
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I've seen that page…it is a testament to an entire generations efforts to tell people that naruto isn't just bad, it is implausibly bad...and I agree. If there's one thing I learned from kishi is how to write a good story, just do the opposite of everything he's done.
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I've seen that page…it is a testament to an entire generations efforts to tell people that naruto isn't just bad, it is implausibly bad...and I agree. If there's one thing I learned from kishi is how to write a good story, just do the opposite of everything he's done.
Now now, let's not get carried away here. What makes Naruto remarkably bad is not just what he did in Part 2. It's that everything happened as it did in Part 2 after setting everything up in Part 1. Raised our hopes up only to dash them away. Good show, sir.
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I should have phrased that more clearly. That page is dedicated to the mistakes of part two and I do believe part one was written well except for that bit with naruto letting his 'friend' beat him when he clearly could have won had he not aimed for his headband, it set up part two for what was to be a great stage of action and drama…and then.....well you read part two, had you not you wouldn't think of naruto as it is today. I meant that as far as part two is conserned, I learned how not to give people hope and then take it away from them because I have either gotten my head so far up my ass over how popular my work is or my editor has some sort of a choke hold on my work. Or both.
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Did any of you guys ever read Kishi's one shot called "Mario"?
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It….was interesting....though after reading naruto for so long it feels as if he's sticking to what he knows....ninjas to assassins....
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it doesn't take to be killer to lose emotions
I think someone's been dipping into the Kubo quote book.
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Great. Now the sociopath discussion is leaking into the Nardo/Bleh thread.
Anyway, not to put a damper on things, but the seiyuu who voiced Yamamoto died today.
He also voiced Toto on One Piece.
It appears that the voice of Netero, Ichirô NAGAI, has passed away. He's been voice acting for decades and has done lots of different roles so this really is a shame
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@Purple:
Now now, let's not get carried away here. What makes Naruto remarkably bad is not just what he did in Part 2. It's that everything happened as it did in Part 2 after setting everything up in Part 1. Raised our hopes up only to dash them away. Good show, sir.
Naruto was already terrible way before part 2 had started but Kishi went in depth in part 2 to explain why Naruto is garbage .
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Naruto was already terrible way before part 2 had started but Kishi went in depth in part 2 to explain why Naruto is garbage .
On the downhill decline yes, but he was very swift on changing the slope to a much steeper ride to crap once part 2 got going.
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No naruto chapter this week?
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I'm surprised Rukia didn't question why Isane was the only one there to heal Kensei and Rose.
Her confrontation with As Nodt was extremely rushed, like the climax is about to occur at the start of the very next chapter…
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Great. Now the sociopath discussion is leaking into the Nardo/Bleh thread.
Anyway, not to put a damper on things, but the seiyuu who voiced Yamamoto died today.
He also voiced Toto on One Piece.
Damn, I remember reading that yesterday. It's a shame, the voice was so deep but distinguishable, perfect for grumpy ol' man like Yama. (condolences to family and wife Masako Nozawa)
No naruto chapter this week?
Nope, it's on break. Kishi had a death in the family.
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I think someone's been dipping into the Kubo quote book.
! http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz241/connormrrtt/Untitled_zps82fdcdef.jpg
I see, so Kubo have given such hint for this topic of seemingly emotonless Bleach characters.
I'm not saying that it explains everything or anything like that, because everyone have their personal opinions, but in my opinion it's suspicious for many guys there to complain about Bleach characters being emotionless, because it looks more like they're just biased for their dislike towards series. It's not like this concept of why would someone be emotionless in a fight is something hard to grasp.
Maybe most of mangas capture concept of using emotions in a fight for using them as source of motivation to keep fighting despite pain and dangers, but in Bleach shinigami's are acting out of duty, not for personal reasons, so it's not like that model of behavior is something contradicts with that other more commonly used model of behavior for defining personality of a fighter. It's not like shinigamis are emotionless anyway, it's just that they have main focus on their sense of duty, not on emotions. In story Hitsugaya once got into argue with Aizen to counter his attempts to provocate Ichigo. -
There's a difference between being "thinking about your next move" and level-headed and being a blank wall.
Like that time Ichigo just stood there while Hitsugaya skewered Momo and everyone else was unaware of it.
Well, that's among the most extreme cases, but basically the characters, when they do show emotion in fights, its just "smugness" because they think they have the upper hand. Which is just as bad as being unemotional.
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Show me a soldier in real life who can just switch off his fear without being completely broken from a very young age, then we talk.
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It's a fiction. Reason why characters appears to be like this have notion. What do you mean by asking me to show a real life soldiers or "blank walls"? I seriously don't understand why do you guys have problems accepting a fictional story having fictional character types. Being more realitic just makes that event easier to comprehend and understand.
Maybe I'm robot or something for not being able to see that something you guys see. -
Fiction is but another medium to express ideas. Of course you're going to get more exaggerated personality types. OP has them, DB has them, every series has them. But the exaggerations are not what makes us root for them necessarily. We judge prose and narration based on how well we can connect and understand the world, even if its laws vary from ours. At its best, it can deliver itself as a metaphor with symbolism to make us think about ideas, but at the minimum, there must be some sort of connection we can feel. Having zero characterization does nothing for that, and really when you distill it down, the characters in Bleach lack any sort of that thing other than "being cool" and "being an asshole"
Otherwise we can just go and say "Air Gear is fiction! Don't expect something realistic!" and be happy that it's one of the shittiest, most scatterbrained things out there.
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Air Gear is awesome, respect.
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@Purple:
Fiction is but another medium to express ideas. Of course you're going to get more exaggerated personality types. OP has them, DB has them, every series has them. But the exaggerations are not what makes us root for them necessarily. We judge prose and narration based on how well we can connect and understand the world, even if its laws vary from ours. At its best, it can deliver itself as a metaphor with symbolism to make us think about ideas, but at the minimum, there must be some sort of connection we can feel. Having zero characterization does nothing for that, and really when you distill it down, the characters in Bleach lack any sort of that thing other than "being cool" and "being an asshole"
Otherwise we can just go and say "Air Gear is fiction! Don't expect something realistic!" and be happy that it's one of the shittiest, most scatterbrained things out there.
Yeah, perhabs you can see me as alien for being able to empathise with those emotionless fictional characters or whatever.
I completely agree with you, but that's my point - just because something is harder to relate to that alone doesn't make it actual flaw. Not because it isn't, but because I don't believe in perfection and I'd prefer for artist to express his own ideas than take over socially accepted standartized and stereotypical models and methods. But well, it's your choice if you take anyone who tries to do things his own way as a flawed specimen who doesn't know how society works. Thank you for only trying to understand people whose you can relate with. -
@Purple:
Fiction is but another medium to express ideas. Of course you're going to get more exaggerated personality types. OP has them, DB has them, every series has them. But the exaggerations are not what makes us root for them necessarily. We judge prose and narration based on how well we can connect and understand the world, even if its laws vary from ours. At its best, it can deliver itself as a metaphor with symbolism to make us think about ideas, but at the minimum, there must be some sort of connection we can feel. Having zero characterization does nothing for that, and really when you distill it down, the characters in Bleach lack any sort of that thing other than "being cool" and "being an asshole"
Couldn't have said it better. Then again:
Otherwise we can just go and say "Air Gear is fiction! Don't expect something realistic!" and be happy that it's one of the shittiest, most scatterbrained things out there.
This IS what most anime fans actually do. Whether it is because they are young, inexperienced or just reject the idea of having standards in any form in regards to fiction I can't tell. However, low personal standards shouldn't be used to leash out at people who actually still abide by these standards and who want more out of a medium than simple entertainment.
Yeah, perhabs you can see me as alien for being able to empathise with those emotionless fictional characters or whatever.
I completely agree with you, but that's my point - just because something is harder to relate to that alone doesn't make it actual flaw. Not because it isn't, but because I don't believe in perfection and I'd prefer for artist to express his own ideas than take over socially accepted standartized and stereotypical models and methods. But well, it's your choice if you take anyone who tries to do things his own way as a flawed specimen who doesn't know how society works. Thank you for only trying to understand people whose you can relate with.The thing is: Kubo doesn't make anything special. He comforts to the stereotypical ideas of writing badass, cool, dickish, emotionless and stoic characters (which is about all they have as traits). His own ideas consist of having the standard of coolness of a 14-year old.
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Seriously
This isn't about doing things right or doing things his way. When you distill it down this is all stuff that is stereotypically popular and cool without any of the effort to give it depth.
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The thing is: Kubo doesn't make anything special. He comforts to the stereotypical ideas of writing badass, cool, dickish, emotionless and stoic characters (which is about all they have as traits). His own ideas consist of having the standard of coolness of a 14-year old.
Why do you assume that those characters have no depth when you can't read their thoughts?
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Why do you assume that those characters have no depth when you can't read their thoughts?
It would help if their thoughts made sense and Kubo wouldn't change them as he sees fit.
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Why do you assume that those characters have no depth when you can't read their thoughts?
There is such thing as characterization without thought bubbles you know.
Or, maybe it would be nice if they had thought bubbles. Just something so that they're not just cardboard cutouts put in battle scenes.
We can only judge by what is presented, and if you expect the audience to be able to pick up "depth" when there is none to be had, then I guess Kubo's poetry is the next best thing.
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@Purple:
There is such thing as characterization without thought bubbles you know.
Or, maybe it would be nice if they had thought bubbles. Just something so that they're not just cardboard cutouts put in battle scenes.
We can only judge by what is presented, and if you expect the audience to be able to pick up "depth" when there is none to be had, then I guess Kubo's poetry is the next best thing.
Hey, Kubo's deep poems are awesome! Look how perfectly they characterize Aizen's deep plans!
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It would help if their thoughts made sense and Kubo wouldn't change them as he sees fit.
At this point I'm more inclined to say that their thinking is actually another metaphor Kubo's trying to use for "not thinking things through but thinking you have" which is his attitude to Bleach. So meta and so ridiculously contradictory that it makes it even more meta, it's Kubo's "1 in a billion will realize it" secret he's been planting since the beginning of the series.
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@Purple:
There is such thing as characterization without thought bubbles you know.
Or, maybe it would be nice if they had thought bubbles. Just something so that they're not just cardboard cutouts put in battle scenes.
We can only judge by what is presented, and if you expect the audience to be able to pick up "depth" when there is none to be had, then I guess Kubo's poetry is the next best thing.
I see, sorry. Well, for me it ins't that case. Not going to explain how my mind works, but either way I guess I'd have to put thought bullbes if I ever drew comic to give impression that characters are capable of thinking.
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I see, sorry. Well, for me it ins't that case. Not going to explain how my mind works, but either way I guess I'd have to put thought bullbes if I ever drew comic to show that characters are capable of thinking.
Or emote. Emote. That's all we really ask. That they lack even the slightest hint of a personality ever is what separates Bleach from any other series because kids think that's "what's adult" or "cool" when it's just a sign of immaturity. Thought bubbles are just there because you complained that we don't know if they actually have thoughts or not.
Dammit I need to reread Sander's MP100 reimagining of Bleach again.
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@Purple:
Dammit I need to reread Sander's MP100 reimagining of Bleach again.
You know, I think that's exactly what I will do when I meet a fanboy of Kubo, Kishi or Oh Great! again in real life: I will tell them to read ONE's manga. Should help them to realize something about the flawed idealism the creator lets loose through his characters.
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I see, so Kubo have given such hint for this topic of seemingly emotonless Bleach characters.
You do know that wasn't the original Color Spread poem, right?
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You know, I think that's exactly what I will do when I meet a fanboy of Kubo, Kishi or Oh Great! again in real life: I will tell them to read ONE's manga. Should help them to realize something about the flawed idealism the creator lets loose through his characters.
It's funny because Garou or the Claw division would actually feel like characters created by Kubo… but actually taken seriously as opposed to story tools meant to show how stupid the characters and ideologies are
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@Purple:
It's funny because Garou or the Claw division would actually feel like characters created by Kubo… but actually taken seriously as opposed to story tools meant to show how stupid the characters and ideologies are
Claw psychics are exactly like the Fullbringers. Except that people react normally to them by laughing at their delusional shit.
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Yeah, perhabs you can see me as alien for being able to empathise with those emotionless fictional characters or whatever.
I completely agree with you, but that's my point - just because something is harder to relate to that alone doesn't make it actual flaw. Not because it isn't, but because I don't believe in perfection and I'd prefer for artist to express his own ideas than take over socially accepted standartized and stereotypical models and methods. But well, it's your choice if you take anyone who tries to do things his own way as a flawed specimen who doesn't know how society works. Thank you for only trying to understand people whose you can relate with.How does one empathize with a character void of emotion? If there is anything you would feel for that character it would be either pity for the fact that the author is unable to properly express emotion through said character or contempt for the character when ever there are in a situation and they do not respond with the appropriate emotion towards said situation. If being able to empathize with said characters makes you believe that others are somehow seeing you as an alien due to the fact that you do sympathize with said character then it seems that you may be unable to understand what it is these guys here are saying. The very fact that you believe that the inability for others to relate to an authors characters are not a flaw is a flaw. It is an authors duty to his reader to allow for his characters to be understood in some way (not completely mind you) to his audience, if he doesn't then he fails as a story teller.
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Claw psychics are exactly like the Fullbringers. Except that people react normally to them by laughing at their delusional shit.
That's not true at all.
At least we knew what the Claw psychics' motivation was. What the hell were the Fullbringers after, again?
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Has pRopaaNS seen Kubo's table yet?
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How does one empathize with a character void of emotion? If there is anything you would feel for that character it would be either pity for the fact that the author is unable to properly express emotion through said character or contempt for the character when ever there are in a situation and they do not respond with the appropriate emotion towards said situation. If being able to empathize with said characters makes you believe that others are somehow seeing you as an alien due to the fact that you do sympathize with said character then it seems that you may be unable to understand what it is these guys here are saying. The very fact that you believe that the inability for others to relate to an authors characters are not a flaw is a flaw. It is an authors duty to his reader to allow for his characters to be understood in some way (not completely mind you) to his audience, if he doesn't then he fails as a story teller.
As a guy who don't express my own emotions I can relate to them. That's what I mean't by "perhabs you can see me as alien for bing able to empathise with those emotionless fictional characters". Whatever, so in the end it's flaw because majority of society prefers emotional characters. I just dislike twhen people states their opinions as facts just because their opinions and ideas belongs to majority. Everyone is individual with their own ways of thinking, therefore someone's opinion might be a real truth for themselves, but that doesn't apply those truths to everyone.
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I don't usually show many emotions myself, but most of Kubo's characters are too bland even in doing so.
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Yeah, perhabs you can see me as alien for being able to empathise with those emotionless fictional characters or whatever.
I completely agree with you, but that's my point - just because something is harder to relate to that alone doesn't make it actual flaw. Not because it isn't, but because I don't believe in perfection and I'd prefer for artist to express his own ideas than take over socially accepted standartized and stereotypical models and methods. But well, it's your choice if you take anyone who tries to do things his own way as a flawed specimen who doesn't know how society works. Thank you for only trying to understand people whose you can relate with.You're just impressing an idea of character onto the blank canvas without knowing you're doing it and because you're naive enough to think there's anything there.
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@Monkey:
You're just impressing an idea of character onto the blank canvas without knowing you're doing it and because you're naive enough to think there's anything there.
No, for me that black canvas let's me to think through different scenarios and guesses about what those characters might be possibly thinking and what are their intentions. I as artist enjoy using my imagination when reading a story.
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So wait, do you enjoy the characters because they're blank slates, or because you feel they're hiding emotions, which you can relate to?
Because there's a world of difference between characters consciously trying to repress any display of emotions, and characters not having them.
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No, for me that black canvas let's me to think through different scenarios and guesses about what those characters might be possibly thinking and what are their intentions. I as artist enjoy using my imagination when reading a story.
So you could also just look at a blank sheet of paper instead of Bleach panels and have nearly the same effect/thoughts?! At least I sometimes really feel that way..
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Well whatever turns you guys on. I don't know for what reasons you are preassuming that my opinion is wrong and attack it with ridiculing examples, but if you enjoy looking down on other people then have it your way. It's good to know how society works.
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It's a matter of making or not making the distinction between the imagined human personality and the actual characterization of the character in question. If we treat bland characters as human beings with logical reasons for all of their actions, we can relate to them no matter what their actions are because we assume that there are natural consequences making them the way they are, but if we look at them as abstract characters in a strictly storytelling-centered sense then the only thing that matters is what we are shown.
The problem arises when the authors, the creators of the characters, bypass this and try to present the characters as human beings who act in a specific way regardless of their reactions going against all logic, usually just to make them look cool or something as silly.
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Oh god, it's been a long time since I couldn't stand someone just because he tries to explain everything with "HERP DERP your arguments about this series are invalid because I somehow don't see any of them".
You like this series? Okay. We don't. Probably all of us. We see the lack of logic in Bleach and Naruto and it bugs the hell of of us. We see the lack of different emotions, backgrounds and "stylistic" choices Kubo makes. You don't. Let's end this part of the discussion and get back to talking about how shitty these series are.
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the way i see this kind of thing is, we are readers, casuals,fans or blind-fanboys, so we have "eye of god" advantage into the story, into characters life. it doesn't matter whether its character's normal life or even his/her inner thought. sometimes, we might even now something that even character or a lot of characters doesn't know. so, even if the character or a lot of characters supposedly hiding/suppress/denied their emotion/thought or his/her basically a tsundere or supposedly mysterious character, good writer can and will give his character emotion/thought that is visible to us casual readers/fan but not not visible in the story. except blind-fanboys.
but Kubo and Bleach nowadays are not like that. before SS arc, after SS arc and Arancar arc, his character actually have all sort of emotions that were visible to us casual readers and fans.
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Well whatever turns you guys on. I don't know for what reasons you are preassuming that my opinion is wrong and attack it with ridiculing examples, but if you enjoy looking down on other people then have it your way. It's good to know how society works.
Ehm yeah, okay. If you enjoy Bleach then it's fine and I have absolutely no problem with it, but I don't see those "ridiculing examples" you mention, the points they made are completely valid.
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To me character writing involves you getting to know the characters as well as possible through what the author says. Of course, there's the death of the author, where you look at the series separately from possible author intent and just take it as whatever you want to take it as. That's fine, I just prefer the more traditional way of looking at what the author actually might have wanted to say(just to take it as what it comes across as initially), and from that also whether it actually gets across that way.
There's also the question how deep can you go into something without overanalyzing it or looking pointlessly deep into it? I could see Bleach as having a very interesting world system with moral ambiguity(the SS have done some terrible things by the reader's perspective) for example, but was that really the intention considering how little this is actually focused on/how it's brushed over? -
You know what the funny thing is?
I've actually frequently saw fanfics of Bleach that are way better than canon.
Which, btw, is a situation that doesn't occure often. Maybe it's because they are such blank slates that giving them any characterization makes them instantly better.