Next Strawhat Crewmate (Vol. 6)

[Monkey King]

@P1nk:

You could say the most powerful Yonkou is the one without a devil fruit Shanks. I say the most powerful because he
dispatched Kaidou, came to the war, ran off Blackbeard and had the marines stop fighting by his presence.
However I do agrees with you, that many view it in the one piece world as a risk worth taking.

He didn't "dispatch" Kaidou. He managed to get to where he wanted to go in spite of Kaidou trying to stop him.
You're mad if you think that means Shanks defeated Kaidou or otherwise displayed some huge level of superiority.
Nor did he run off Blackbeard lol, or stop the Marines.
He stopped the battle when it was out of control. The threat of another player in the game sobered everyone up.
Again, you're mad if you think it was "OH NO SHANKS WILL KICK OUR ASSES".

[Cymelion]

It would be poetic - Jinbei being the one to bring Luffy back from the brink after his loss of Ace only to be the next one he loses. All the training in the world doesn't matter sometimes - sacrifices need to be made at times and that is something Luffy understands. He puts himself in harms way to save his crew throughout all arcs it's only logical that a member of his crew would in turn sacrifice themselves for him. Zoro was close but that was part of Zoro's growth - Merry was emotional of course but it's like comparing the sadness of losing a family member you love vs losing your house - Both sad for different reasons and not comparable.

@Monkey:

This is a thing that won't happened.

I don't have your conviction on that but I concede it is highly unlikely to happen regardless of why I wrote above. (Lets see who reads this part).
Reading the posts of people I have come to trust on the matter of One Piece I can see their arguments have merits - but I can't shake the feeling this trope is going to be used and Ace wasn't it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Palpitoad93:

Nobody in the current crew is going to leave, especially not with how easily Oda gets attached to characters coughPellcough.

Can I Off Topic this briefly please.

Pell was a Falcon Zoan - the Peregrine Falcon is the Fastest Animal on earth right now with the ability to fly at speeds recorded at 389kph or 242mph - average terminal velocity is 195kph or 122mph. Pell survived because he could essentially outrun the falling bomb - but still got hit by the after effects of the explosion. Oda chose a Falcon Zoan for a reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_speed

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Honestly, if it actually were poetic, i would not have a problem with it, as much as i like Jinbe´s character but it´s actually not and is totally missing the point of Ace´s death and the timeskip, not to forget that it would not bring anything new to the table in terms of character development for Luffy.

More than the reason for his death, that particular character flaw of Jinbe, namely shouldering everything by himself without relying on others , is gonna be the one that´s gonna be changed by Luffy. Just like the emotional distance of Nami and Robin to other people (expressed differently), for different reasons of course, Franky´s guilt about the past, Chopper´s fear of interaction with humans and of being called a monster, Sanji´s sense of duty towards Zeff and thus his give-up of his dream, Brook´s solitude and guilt towards Laboon and so forth.
Even though the flashback in the FI arc was somewhat personal for Jinbe, the priority was the history of Fishman Island, mostly focused on Otohime and Fisher Tiger, so Jinbe´s joining arc should feature a much more personal flashback and of course his dream that he had to give up in order to shoulder the heavy responsibility of helping Fishman Island and leading the remnants of the Sun Pirates, just like Neptune said

[Robby]

@Cymelion:

It would be poetic - Jinbei being the one to bring Luffy back from the brink after his loss of Ace only to be the next one he loses.

No it wouldn't be. And would defeat the entire point of Ace's death and the timeskip.

All the training in the world doesn't matter sometimes - sacrifices need to be made at times and that is something Luffy understands.

Not in One Piece. Not with named characters. There's been one, and that's all Luffy needed to have thepoint hammered in. Especially after Shabondy causing him to lose everyone he cared about and show his weakness before that. That lesson was hammered in for two years of time, both in the story and in the real world, it does not need repeating.

He puts himself in harms way to save his crew throughout all arcs it's only logical that a member of his crew would in turn sacrifice themselves for him.

Luffy has never actually died to save his crew, it would not be equivalent to have someone else do so. Sacrifice some physical effort, some pain, a bit of a dream, sure, they've all done that. Bu no one needs to die for Luffy's cause to prove some sort of point.

Zoro was close but that was part of Zoro's growth -

And Jinbe dying would be part of who's growth exactly? It would serve what point in the story?

Even Merry's death worked on multiple fronts. It was a major thing for Usopp, AND allowed Franky's dream to start.

Merry was emotional of course but it's like comparing the sadness of losing a family member you love vs losing your house - Both sad for different reasons and not comparable.

Oda-san felt Merry was a part of the crew, to the point when he teased it at Jump Festa, he referred to her as "one of the strawhats", and had a very hard time killing her.

Does your house talk to you and move around on its own? Merry was alive.

The emotional attachment and sense of loss was strong even before that reveal, but especially after.

I don't have your conviction on that but I concede it is highly unlikely to happen regardless of why I wrote above. (Lets see who reads this part).

Then why do you write it when you know and admit up front that you know it's wrong?

[Mikan]

@Cymelion:

It would be poetic - Jinbei being the one to bring Luffy back from the brink after his loss of Ace only to be the next one he loses. All the training in the world doesn't matter sometimes - sacrifices need to be made at times and that is something Luffy understands. He puts himself in harms way to save his crew throughout all arcs it's only logical that a member of his crew would in turn sacrifice themselves for him. Zoro was close but that was part of Zoro's growth - Merry was emotional of course but it's like comparing the sadness of losing a family member you love vs losing your house - Both sad for different reasons and not comparable.

Yes, Luffy is willing to sacrifice himself all the time. But when Ace sacrificed himself for him, he didn't accept it - his lesson wasn't "well, sometimes people have to die", but "I still have my crewmates" and "I'll become stronger to protect them." Both which would be violated by Jinbe dying again, and Luffy would be put back into the same funk, stagnating the storyline.

When it comes down to it, Oda doesn't like killing characters. Whitebeard and Ace's deaths were extremely important to the storyline (symbolically ending an era, making Luffy wake up and realize the dangers, the timeskip, etc.) Ace's death was treated extremely seriously, and is still being brought up in the present storyline (with Luffy so dead set on getting his fruit.) His death was important and symbolic on several levels. So no, I don't see Oda killing off another character so soon after. And for what reason? To show sacrifice? That is brought up constantly on it's own - Jinbe dying wouldn't make any point that hasn't been hit home a thousand times already. I really can't think of a good reason - a reason like the ones for Ace's death - for Jinbe to die.

Not that I can't see a character ever dying again in One Piece (I've had a bad feeling about Shanks since Makino had a baby), but not so soon, and not a crewmate, when Luffy's big goal has really become "protect my crew", which has been driven home many, many times. And for not such a dumb reason as "to show sacrifice" or "it's a trope."

@Superbear:

(Looks at the numerous pirate orginazation who's highest rankings consist of devil fruit users. Looks at Kaido who's raising an army of artifical devil fruit users) Umm. Excuse me. Common sense would say that what you said makes sense but given that, in a world that is dominated by sea the most sought after and plentiful superpowers cause users to be very subceptible to drowning. Every powerful pirate orginzation is either lead by or has many Devil fruit users, this goes for non-pirate orginzations as well. Therefore I'm a little jaded when one says "swimming is important in One Piece".

Obviously Oda focuses more on fruit users, since they make for more interesting fights. My point was just that swimming really isn't such a unique, rare skill that two members can't have it, or that it would be unnecessary overlap.

[Static]

@Hitotsumami:

In my opinion, I do not think any character revealed thus far is going to joint he crew. However, if I was forced to choose one, I'd vote for Jinbei, or, in my world of delusion, Barto.

Come to think of it, there is only one spot left on the crew, if we're basing the number of people in the crew to be 10 total. In my opinion, I think whoever is the last person to join the crew is going to have an entire arc dedicated to that person, as every previous member (to some degree). As of yet, I haven't seen that. Perhaps we will see someone in the Wano country join the crew, but I have my doubts about that too, since it's all about samurai there, and we already have two swordsman. I'd like to see something more original.

It's pretty clear if you think about it right that, Jinbei will be joining during the Big Mam arc.
Oda, had Luffy say he wanted 10 Crew Members not including himself but that was at the start of the series. Oda made many changes to the Manga since then. He also said in an interview that Luffy will get as many crew-mates that his heart desires. Basically that means he might have more than 10 crew mates. We never know what can happen. We're halfway through the series so there's a chance that 2-4 more crew-mates will join.

[Cymelion]

@RobbyBevard:

No it wouldn't be. And would defeat the entire point of Ace's death and the timeskip.
Not in One Piece. Not with named characters. There's been one, and that's all Luffy needed to have thepoint hammered in. especially after Shabondy before that.
Luffy has never actually died to save his crew, it would not be equivalent to have someone else do so for no reason.
And Jinbe dying would be part of who's growth exactly? It would serve what point in the story?
Even Merry's death worked on multiple fronts. It was a major thing for Usopp, AND allowed Franky's dream to start.
Oda-san felt Merry was a part of the crew, to the point when he teased it at Jump Festa, he referred to her as "one of the strawhats", and had a very hard time killing her.
Does your house talk to you and move around on its own? Merry was alive.
The emotional attachment and sense of loss was strong even before that reveal, but especially after.
Then why do you write it when you know and admit up front that you know it's wrong?

.< I know the reasons you separate the quotes to argue each line is to create bigger and bigger posts that eventually the weaker side gives up and also stops others from weighing into it. Lets not play that game? I'm not unreasonable and I will concede times when I am wrong you don't need to resort to that type of behavior.

Luffy's come damn close to dying for his crew - a lot of times its blind luck that has saved. But not enough to be a deus ex machina each time but significant. While comparing Jinbei sacrificing himself to Zoro's attempt is inaccurate as well it wouldn't be about Growth it would be about fulfilling a debt and in some cases a forshadowing if indeed he did Die in order to save Luffy. Ace - Whitebeard - Shanks have all bet in someway that Luffy will achieve greatness and Jinbei is aware of that I am sure. What point would it serve the story? It's about loss - you write stories as well, are you saying that Ace and WB are it for the story no more loss from now till Raftel no more tension, no more will they wont they survive moments? We should all just relax Strawhats are going to simply walk into Raftel as a whole and out again no one's life is at risk at all.

I know Merry was alive and important and emotional but still it's a different level of loss. If I had inherited my parents home and raised my family in it and lost it in a fire I know I would be devastated all those memories gone. But it wouldn't be the same type of loss I would feel to losing a member of my family. And you damn well bet I teared up both in the Manga and when Watching it in the anime so I'm not denying it was moving I'm saying losing a SH would be a different type of loss.

I said I don't have Zephos's conviction that it absolutely wont happen - But I have learnt that in the matters that he along with you, Brennan, Aohigi and countless others are often more right in these matters then I am. But I am sorry I'm always going to be a firm believer that Jinbei will be the Strawhat that dies. Even though you guys might convince me briefly at times it's unlikely to happen I can't explain it better then that though.

[Robby]

@Cymelion:

are you saying that Ace and WB are it for the story no more loss from now till Raftel no more tension, no more will they wont they survive moments? We should all just relax Strawhats are going to simply walk into Raftel as a whole and out again no one's life is at risk at all.

That the main characters will make it through just fine is an agreement you going into a shonen with anyway.

But Oda-san can't even harm one panel background characters.
Sure, Oda-san will play the tension card, but he's not killing anybody.

It's one of his weaknesses. It's been hurting the story since Skypeia, and devalues the threat of the villains and the accomplishments of the heroes, but it is how it is.

@Cymelion:

I said I don't have Zephos's conviction that it absolutely wont happen - But I have learnt that in the matters that he along with you, Brennan, Aohigi and countless others are often more right in these matters then I am. But I am sorry I'm always going to be a firm believer that Jinbei will be the Strawhat that dies. Even though you guys might convince me briefly at times it's unlikely to happen I can't explain it better then that though.

That's because we go by how the author and the story work, not gut feeling.

[Cymelion]

@RobbyBevard:

That the main characters will make it through just fine is an agreement you going into a shonen with anyway.
But Oda-san can't even harm one panel background characters.
Sure, Oda-san will play the tension card, but he's not killing anybody.
It's one of his weaknesses. It's been hurting the story since Skypeia, and devalues the threat of the villains and the accomplishments of the heroes, but it is how it is.
That's because we go by how the author and the story work, not gut feeling.

That's a fair call - especially Skypeia. I think nowadays people are more frustrated by the tension build up rather than buying into it.

And I would hardly call an established trope a "gut feeling" it's even the 11th stage of the Heroes Journey - BUT I assume you're in the camp that stage could refer to Shanks rather then the SH crew which is also a fair call. Oda seems to be braving dark matter a lot more these days and his own reminders about mortality might be worked through his writing in the future.

[Monkey King]

@Cymelion:

And I would hardly call an established trope a "gut feeling" it's even the 11th stage of the Heroes Journey - BUT I assume you're in the camp that stage could refer to Shanks rather then the SH crew which is also a fair call.

The established tropes you should be paying attention to are Oda tropes. And an Oda trope is not killing people.

Also

Oda seems to be braving dark matter a lot more these days and his own reminders about mortality might be worked through his writing in the future.

This is not true. Completely not true. Why on earth are people saying this lol.

[Cymelion]

@Monkey:

The established tropes you should be paying attention to are Oda tropes. And an Oda trope is not killing people.
Also
This is not true. Completely not true. Why on earth are people saying this lol.

He is still following the Heroes Journey template - with his own flare - Oda trope about not killing people is established but therefore any time he does introduce mortality into the manga it would be especially jarring - not many thought we'd get a 2 for 1 deal at Marineford and a ton thought Oda would have a happy ending with Ace sailing off winking at Luffy. No not you Zeph you predicted it pretty damn well.

Whats not true the darkness or the mortality?
Kids being fed drugs and being killed is pretty damn dark man - granted not Nolan dark or even Michael Bay dark but still.
His mortality? He got pretty sick there and that can scare people, being an artist means he will probably work through it in his art either consciously or subconsciously.

[Robby]

@Cymelion:

Whats not true the darkness or the mortality?
Kids being fed drugs and being killed is pretty damn dark man - granted not Nolan dark or even Michael Bay dark but still.
His mortality? He got pretty sick there and that can scare people, being an artist means he will probably work through it in his art either consciously or subconsciously.

It's nothing new. He had guys eating their own legs, and mothers having their brains blown out in front of their daughters, pretty early on, and there have been big political and social issues all along. The darkest period in OP is at W7, right when Usopp leaves, thats one of the few times hopelessness and despair and true betrayal really sank in.

Darkness in OP is nothing new, thinking Sabondy or Fishman Island or Punk Hazard is the first time it showed up is just not the case.

And yes, there's room for Shanks to die, for most of the same reasons Ace did… hes a security blanket. And because Luffy ordering him around in the final war would be weird and because Blackbeard needs to do something personal to become more credible, and he and BB have history, and built up promises, because oh sadness when Luffy returns the hat in a way you didn't expect, but that's not an event happening anytime soon, not till Luffy's already at Yonkou level anyway.

Shanks is going to acknowledge Luffy as a greater pirate than himself before anything happens to him. That's the promise that's been binding Luffy since chapter one, and there's no way Oda is playing up that 25+ year promised reunion and return of a hat at a gravestone, same way he didn't count it at the war... and the same way Zoro and Mihawk are definitely going to fight in a crazy big battle, despite their new teacher/student status.

AFTER Luffy is Yonkou level, AFTER Shanks has verbally acknowledged him, after two of the big threats are taken care of and we need a way to hype up the last one some more after kaido and Big Mom have fallen and things are in crazy chaos and the government is crashing down on them all and Raftel is close... then things can go down. But that's a very long ways off with no real buildup yet, and it doesn't actually need to happen for any story reason at this point, and would be very close to the end of the series rather than the middle we're at now. Later, BB might specifically attempt to target Luffy and Shanks steps in then... but thats kind of identical to what happened with Ace already?

[Monkey King]

@Cymelion:

He is still following the Heroes Journey template - with his own flare - Oda trope about not killing people is established but therefore any time he does introduce mortality into the manga it would be especially jarring -

Yes, with really huge characters at really huge moments like the finale of the first half.

not many thought we'd get a 2 for 1 deal at Marineford and a ton thought Oda would have a happy ending with Ace sailing off winking at Luffy. No not you Zeph you predicted it pretty damn well.

Which kind of makes this a problematic argument against me lol.

Whats not true the darkness or the mortality?
Kids being fed drugs and being killed is pretty damn dark man - granted not Nolan dark or even Michael Bay dark but still.
His mortality? He got pretty sick there and that can scare people, being an artist means he will probably work through it in his art either consciously or subconsciously.

sigh I've done this twice now for other people. But it's on you this time.
I see you described the Punk Hazard plot there.
Please do so for the other arcs in the series.

Also having a friggin' Tonsil infection isn't going to make him consider his mortality lol.

@Robby:

The darkest period in OP is at W7, right when Usopp leaves, thats one of the few times hopelessness and despair and true betrayal really sank in.

One of them anyway.
The end of Shabondy, and Luffy's awakening after Ace is dead are comparable.

But yeah, that period in W7 between Galley La saying Merry was doomed, and when CP9 left Iceberg and Paulie tied up in the burning mansion is REALLY dark.
Rereading W7 as I am now, I'm recognizing it was Oda deciding to give the crew it's first real existential crisis.

[Cymelion]

@RobbyBevard:

It's nothing new. He had guys eating their own legs, and mothers having their brains blown out in front of their daughters, pretty early on, and there have been big political and social issues all along. The darkest period in OP is at W7, right when Usopp leaves, thats one of the few times hopelessness and despair and true betrayal really sank in.
Darkness in OP is nothing new, thinking Sabondy or Fishman Island or Punk Hazard is the first time it showed up is just not the case.

And yes, there's room for Shanks to die, for most of the same reasons Ace did… hes a security blanket. And because Luffy ordering him around in the final war would be weird and because Blackbeard needs to do something personal to become more credible, and he and BB have history, and built up promises, because oh sadness when Luffy returns the hat in a way you didn't expect, but that's not an event happening anytime soon, not till Luffy's already at Yonkou level anyway.

Shanks is going to acknowledge Luffy as a greater pirate than himself before anything happens to him. That's the promise that's been binding Luffy since chapter one, and there's no way Oda is playing up that 25+ year promised reunion and return of a hat at a gravestone, same way he didn't count it at the war... and the same way Zoro and Mihawk are definitely going to fight in a crazy big battle, despite their new teacher/student status.

AFTER Luffy is Yonkou level, AFTER Shanks has verbally acknowledged him, after two of the big threats are taken care of and we need a way to hype up the last one some more after kaido and Big Mom have fallen and things are in crazy chaos and the government is crashing down on them all and Raftel is close... then things can go down. But that's a very long ways off with no real buildup yet, and it doesn't actually need to happen for any story reason at this point, and would be very close to the end of the series rather than the middle we're at now. Later, BB might specifically attempt to target Luffy and Shanks steps in then... but thats kind of identical to what happened with Ace already?

The earlier stories seem to be flashes in a pan though …. although that's not the right metaphor.
Oda is far more comfortable in his storytelling now to be able to delve into the darkness a lot more sustained and not have it come off preachy or depressing where as earlier there was a lot of break the tension humour when things got too serious if not in that chapter then at least the very next one.

I too am comfortable with Shanks being written off this early - the exact way how I couldn't even imagine although its certainly going to be something to do with Blackbeard. But Jinbei has said a few key times that he will risk a lot including his life to support Luffy - he took the majority of a blow from Sakazuki (IIRC?!) and he is going to piss off Big Mam and the marines even more to join the Strawhats. He is also the greatest link on the crew to the previous age of Great Pirates the age that is over this now being a new age of Pirates. I don't doubt he will make it to Raftel but after that I think all bets are off.

[Monkey King]

@Cymelion:

there was a lot of break the tension humour when things got too serious if not in that chapter then at least the very next one.

So how is this different from now exactly?

[Robby]

@Cymelion:

The earlier stories seem to be flashes in a pan though …. although that's not the right metaphor.
Oda is far more comfortable in his storytelling now to be able to delve into the darkness a lot more sustained and not have it come off preachy or depressing where as earlier there was a lot of break the tension humour when things got too serious if not in that chapter then at least the very next one.

There's been darkness in most of the arcs. It's NOT a new thing he just started doing in the last year.

I too am comfortable with Shanks being written off this early - the exact way how I couldn't even imagine although its certainly going to be something to do with Blackbeard.

It won't happen till near the end of the series, if at all… and ONLY to escalate the threat of BB past that of by then defeated Kaidou and Big Mom and whatever world threatening power BB gets ahold of. But given that BB already directly led to the death of Ace (who also tried to stop him from messing with Luffy) it's a bit redundant.

Either way. Not happening till after Luffy gives the hat back, and is told to keep it, as he is now a greater pirate than Shanks... and that seems like something that has to wait till he's Pirate King... at which point it should all launch into the great world war.

(Also, Luffy needs some old friends to brag to and be his reward after becoming King. The treasure is unimportant to him, and the title is only important in relation to Shanks. He's going to get Sabo back, but that's not quite the same.)

But Jinbei has said a few key times that he will risk a lot including his life to support Luffy - he took the majority of a blow from Sakazuki (IIRC?!) and he is going to piss off Big Mam and the marines even more to join the Strawhats. He is also the greatest link on the crew to the previous age of Great Pirates the age that is over this now being a new age of Pirates. I don't doubt he will make it to Raftel but after that I think all bets are off.

1)Jinbe's big burden IS that he carries too many burdens and tries to protect everyone. Luffy will free him from that one inescapable thing that's keeping him from being happy, just like EVERY OTHER STRAWHAT.
2)Brook is decades older than Jinbe, and he's only a couple years older than Franky.
3)Jinbe isn't from Roger and Whitebeard's era, he's from Shank's… just like Franky and Robin... (Shanks is only two years older than Franky.) and he wasn't really a hugely active pirate for most of that, nor was he inspired or influenced by Roger.

[Cymelion]

@Monkey:

Yes, with really huge characters at really huge moments like the finale of the first half.
Which kind of makes this a problematic argument against me lol.

Hence why I am not being a douche about this - I know my position is about as stable as rice paper and if I were some of our forums more unique characters this conversation would be immensely different.

! 1. THE ORDINARY WORLD. The hero, uneasy, uncomfortable or unaware, is introduced sympathetically so the audience can identify with the situation or dilemma. The hero is shown against a background of environment, heredity, and personal history. Some kind of polarity in the hero’s life is pulling in different directions and causing stress.
2. THE CALL TO ADVENTURE. Something shakes up the situation, either from external pressures or from something rising up from deep within, so the hero must face the beginnings of change.
3. REFUSAL OF THE CALL. The hero feels the fear of the unknown and tries to turn away from the adventure, however briefly. Alternately, another character may express the uncertainty and danger ahead.
4. MEETING WITH THE MENTOR. The hero comes across a seasoned traveler of the worlds who gives him or her training, equipment, or advice that will help on the journey. Or the hero reaches within to a source of courage and wisdom.
5. CROSSING THE THRESHOLD. At the end of Act One, the hero commits to leaving the Ordinary World and entering a new region or condition with unfamiliar rules and values.
6. TESTS, ALLIES AND ENEMIES. The hero is tested and sorts out allegiances in the Special World.
7. APPROACH. The hero and newfound allies prepare for the major challenge in the Special world.
8. THE ORDEAL. Near the middle of the story, the hero enters a central space in the Special World and confronts death or faces his or her greatest fear. Out of the moment of death comes a new life.
9. THE REWARD. The hero takes possession of the treasure won by facing death. There may be celebration, but there is also danger of losing the treasure again.
10. THE ROAD BACK. About three-fourths of the way through the story, the hero is driven to complete the adventure, leaving the Special World to be sure the treasure is brought home. Often a chase scene signals the urgency and danger of the mission.
11. THE RESURRECTION. At the climax, the hero is severely tested once more on the threshold of home. He or she is purified by a last sacrifice, another moment of death and rebirth, but on a higher and more complete level. By the hero’s action, the polarities that were in conflict at the beginning are finally resolved.
12. RETURN WITH THE ELIXIR. The hero returns home or continues the journey, bearing some element of the treasure that has the power to transform the world as the hero has been transformed.

We expect the 11th to be Shanks but nothing says it only has to be 1 person - other then of course the emotional fracturing that Luffy could suffer losing 2 close people in his life one a lifelong mentor the other a crewmate - but this of course doesn't help my argument so should be ignored for now.

sigh I've done this twice now for other people. But it's on you this time.
I see you described the Punk Hazard plot there.
Please do so for the other arcs in the series.
Also having a friggin' Tonsil infection isn't going to make him consider his mortality lol.

Tell you what - I'm on days off after tonights Night Shift I'll re-read as far as I can in and then compare earlier arcs to later ones as best I can in regards to plots or you can just beat me over the head with it now I'm fine with either. - But on the tonsil infection I was positive I read that his Doctor was advising him to slow down in the forums from someone like Greg or Stephen but I can't seem to find it I'm possibly mistaking it for someone else saying his doctor should tell him to.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Monkey:

So how is this different from now exactly?

It's not - its just the flow is better and it isn't as noticeable - it's not Zoro decimating the entire Whisky Peak with the look of joy in his eyes being interrupted by Luffy taking a leak.

@RobbyBevard:

There's been darkness in most of the arcs. It's NOT a new thing he just started doing in the last year.
It won't happen till near the end of the series, if at all… and ONLY to escalate the threat of BB past that of by then defeated Kaidou and Big Mom and whatever world threatening power BB gets ahold of. But given that BB already directly led to the death of Ace (who also tried to stop him from messing with Luffy) it's a bit redundant.
Either way. Not happening till after Luffy gives the hat back, and is told to keep it, as he is now a greater pirate than Shanks... and that seems like something that has to wait till he's Pirate King... at which point it should all launch into the great world war.
(Also, Luffy needs some old friends to brag to and be his reward after becoming King. The treasure is unimportant to him, and the title is only important in relation to Shanks. He's going to get Sabo back, but that's not quite the same.)
1)Jinbe's big burden IS that he carries too many burdens and tries to protect everyone. Luffy will free him from that one inescapable thing that's keeping him from being happy, just like EVERY OTHER STRAWHAT.
2)Brook is decades older than Jinbe, and he's only a couple years older than Franky.
3)Jinbe isn't from Roger and Whitebeard's era, he's from Shank's... just like Franky and Robin... (Shanks is only two years older than Franky.) and he wasn't really a hugely active pirate for most of that, nor was he inspired or influenced by Roger.

I know that its not a new thing - I'm just saying the subject matter is being handled differently.
Nami being effectively a slave/beaten child with the threat of her entire village's lives resting on her shoulders is horrific to contemplate - a caretaker who raised a child and looked after them able to show the intention of killing that person shows a darkness if not on par with CC then at least on the path to it.

Brook is from the Age before Roger though - Luffy taking Jinbei's burdens is something that would be great to see - but once he is released from those burdens … maybe I've been reading too much G.R.R Martin and my brain is rejecting the notion that tortured characters can be allowed happiness.

[Robby]

Oda-san's writing habits are like, the exact opposite of George R.R. Martin's.

Oda-san always gives happy endings and chances at redemption and true dreams. Martin just makes everyone suffer.

[Cymelion]

@RobbyBevard:

Oda-san's writing habits are like, the exact opposite of George R.R. Martin's.

Oda-san always gives happy endings and chances at redemption and true dreams. Martin just makes everyone suffer.

I know they are, look I'm more then happy to leave well enough alone with the whole Jinbei is Rufio from Hook. I'll probably still bring it up in the future or agree with others who also believe he is a dead man walking - but I concede we're more likely to be the fools here.

[Monkey King]

@Cymelion:

1. THE ORDINARY WORLD. etc

Yeah I've owned that book too, twice. I think I've had like three classes with it assigned.
Stories are not fill in the blanks. That book covers tropes, and you don't really understand tropes if you think authors just go down lists and fulfill them.
You also don't understand the 11th trope if you think it refers to mentor characters or whatever you would consider Jimbei. It refers to the protagonist strictly.

Tell you what - I'm on days off after tonights Night Shift I'll re-read as far as I can in and then compare earlier arcs to later ones as best I can in regards to plots or you can just beat me over the head with it now I'm fine with either.

Do you not remember them that badly? Just draw up a quick description of the conflict and evils commited in them by the baddie.
I mean I've done it so I can just link you to one of them if I can remember where exactly. This shouldn't be so hard for you.
And to be frank, if it is, you probably shouldn't be talking about now in the manga compared to back then.
Speed reading sucks for all purposes.

• But on the tonsil infection I was positive I read that his Doctor was advising him to slow down in the forums from someone like Greg or Stephen but I can't seem to find it I'm possibly mistaking it for someone else saying his doctor should tell him to.

That would be normal doctor advice, Oda is usually noted as a workaholic with manga, so resting with an infection is like…normal.

It's not - its just the flow is better and it isn't as noticeable - it's not Zoro decimating the entire Whisky Peak with the look of joy in his eyes being interrupted by Luffy taking a leak.

The fight with the 100 bounty hunters wasn't a very serious fight. Nor was it interrupted by Luffy peeing. Nor ruined.
And no, I don't think you're right here.
Also you're talking about like…SIXTY volumes of past here. If Oda was awkward about stuff in Whiskey Peak he damn sure wasn't by Alabasta, which was by Vol.18 soooo...about that "now things are darker" thing.

I know that its not a new thing - I'm just saying the subject matter is being handled differently.
Nami being effectively a slave/beaten child with the threat of her entire village's lives resting on her shoulders is horrific to contemplate - a caretaker who raised a child and looked after them able to show the intention of killing that person shows a darkness if not on par with CC then at least on the path to it.

Arlong was ten times more vicious as CC.
It's inarguable. I mean seriously. Imagine a scenario like we have now with Arlong being towed around by our heroes as some goofy captive right after AP.

What on earth is it about Punk Hazard that makes people go crazy? People call it a great great arc that rehabilitated the series when it was painfully mediocre, people talk up Monet like she's the second coming, and CC is treated as some sort of new grounds breaking villain when he was a wussy Spandam esque cackling coward who is way more enjoyable as a hostage than as a villain.

[Gliblord]

@Monkey:

Yeah I've owned that book too, twice. I think I've had like three classes with it assigned.
Stories are not fill in the blanks. That book covers tropes, and you don't really understand tropes if you think authors just go down lists and fulfill them.
You also don't understand the 11th trope if you think it refers to mentor characters or whatever you would consider Jimbei. It refers to the protagonist strictly.

Do you not remember them that badly? Just draw up a quick description of the conflict and evils commited in them by the baddie.
I mean I've done it so I can just link you to one of them if I can remember where exactly. This shouldn't be so hard for you.
And to be frank, if it is, you probably shouldn't be talking about now in the manga compared to back then.
Speed reading sucks for all purposes.

That would be normal doctor advice, Oda is usually noted as a workaholic with manga, so resting with an infection is like…normal.

The fight with the 100 bounty hunters wasn't a very serious fight. Nor was it interrupted by Luffy peeing. Nor ruined.
And no, I don't think you're right here.
Also you're talking about like...SIXTY volumes of past here. If Oda was awkward about stuff in Whiskey Peak he damn sure wasn't by Alabasta, which was by Vol.18 soooo...about that "now things are darker" thing.

Arlong was ten times more vicious as CC.
It's inarguable. I mean seriously. Imagine a scenario like we have now with Arlong being towed around by our heroes as some goofy captive right after AP.

What on earth is it about Punk Hazard that makes people go crazy? People call it a great great arc that rehabilitated the series when it was painfully mediocre, people talk up Monet like she's the second coming, and CC is treated as some sort of new grounds breaking villain when he was a wussy Spandam esque cackling coward who is way more enjoyable as a hostage than as a villain.

CC was no groundbreaker but he was pretty entertaining as a villain, too

His sheer callousness (deliberately doping kids on narcotics so he can keep them around as his side-experiment for the data until they inevitably die, stringing his minions along as their "savior," and wanting to stick it to Vegapunk by changing the world and selling his weapon of mass destruction [the vat of poison from the bomb he set off 4 years ago given form as an axolotl he loves–and mistakenly believes loves him back]), and his AMAZING expressions

And I liked (not loved) Monet BECAUSE she was just another thug–too often women are relegated to the "there has to be some extenuating circumstances" category of minions that are really good. Though she did have some depth in that she was willing to give her life for Young Master.

As for what I liked about Punk Hazard, it was the sheer creativity of the setting and world-building I enjoyed, and the typical OP craziness dialed up even more with even more plot threads than FI

[Monkey King]

@Gliblord:

CC was no groundbreaker but he was pretty entertaining as a villain, too

His sheer callousness

What OP villain hasn't been callous though lol. They almost always wacky sadists to some extent or another.

And I liked (not loved) Monet BECAUSE she was just another thug–too often women are relegated to the "there has to be some extenuating circumstances" category of minions that are really good. Though she did have some depth in that she was willing to give her life for Young Master.

I would be able to say that about Monet, that it was nice to have a female villain who was just like a villain. But people have very quickly ruined that.

As for what I liked about Punk Hazard, it was the sheer creativity of the setting and world-building I enjoyed, and the typical OP craziness dialed up even more with even more plot threads than FI

I like you, so don't take the tone wrong…
But WHAT world building!!!
It was as vacant of world building as an arc has been since the last similar arc with TB. And before that the DBF.

[Gliblord]

@Monkey:

What OP villain hasn't been callous though lol. They almost always wacky sadists to some extent or another.

I would be able to say that about Monet, that it was nice to have a female villain who was just like a villain. But people have very quickly ruined that.

I like you, so don't take the tone wrong…
But WHAT world building!!!
It was as vacant of world building as an arc has been since the last similar arc with TB. And before that the DBF.

????

Lack of world building???

*Island cordoned off by WG due to poison nuke, then turned into half fire and half ice by the epic battle between admirals
*Underworld brokers and Dofla having his hand in yet another illicit dark market
*Expansion of the world of science (including centaurification)
+Artificial devil fruits strengthening the fleet of an emperor
*More treachery in Marine ranks (with the hilarious and awesome Vergo), yet MORE warlords who are secretly capitalizing on their position to undermine the WG
*Multiple new pirate alliances + THE VILEST GENERATION
*Glimpse at Wano Country + the attitudes of a modern samurai
*YETIS EXIST lol <–-- a joke inclusion

[Monkey King]

@Gliblord:

????

Lack of world building???

*Island cordoned off by WG due to poison nuke, then turned into half fire and half ice by the epic battle between admirals
*Underworld brokers and Dofla having his hand in yet another illicit dark market
*Expansion of the world of science (including centaurification)
+Artificial devil fruits strengthening the fleet of an emperor
*More treachery in Marine ranks (with the hilarious and awesome Vergo), yet MORE warlords who are secretly capitalizing on their position to undermine the WG
*Multiple new pirate alliances + THE VILEST GENERATION
*Glimpse at Wano Country + the attitudes of a modern samurai
*YETIS EXIST lol <–-- a joke inclusion

Wano is really the only one there that I would count as world building, that and the glimpse of the brokers.
World building isn't devil fruit powers, and plot ideas like "FORBIDDEN ISLAND" and stuff like that.
It's things that contribute to the travel documentary side of things, that make the OP world breathe and feel more like a real universe. It's little things.
Skypiea's early chapters are probably the absolute best example Oda's ever done. If you wanna know what me and most people mean by world building go read those chapters again, till about the time when Nami rides the waver near Upperyard.

Punk Hazard was a very specialized isolated location, that felt more like some kind of Smash Bros arena than a real island.
Like instead of visiting something that felt like either a fictional country, or a fictional natural park, the strawhats were visiting some abandoned rock with a base on it. I understand why it had to be that way, but it compounded on top of other issues I had.

[Gliblord]

@Monkey:

Wano is really the only one there that I would count as world building, that and the glimpse of the brokers.
World building isn't devil fruit powers, and plot ideas like "FORBIDDEN ISLAND" and stuff like that.
It's things that contribute to the travel documentary side of things, that make the OP world breathe and feel more like a real universe. It's little things.
Skypiea's early chapters are probably the absolute best example Oda's ever done. If you wanna know what me and most people mean by world building go read those chapters again, till about the time when Nami rides the waver near Upperyard.

Punk Hazard was a very specialized isolated location, that felt more like some kind of Smash Bros arena than a real island.
Like instead of visiting something that felt like either a fictional country, or a fictional natural park, the strawhats were visiting some abandoned rock with a base on it. I understand why it had to be that way, but it compounded on top of other issues I had.

Ah, I see what you're saying. You mean daily life stuff for inhabitants and neat environmental/cultural workings and stuff. Yeah, PH was basically just a restricted science zoo that didn't even have a population, but I guess it all boils down to personal taste because I didn't mind it. Some islands aren't really going to have a culture and as you said, that does make sense. As long as Oda continues bursting with creativity I won't mind it; in fact it's better (for me) when he switches things up now and again, since not every locale can or even should be Skypiea-level rich (which btw I also love Skypiea, but then I love every arc except Morgan's lol)

[Robby]

Punk Hazard really didn't too much that Thriller Bark didn't already do.

-Secret government facility
-being run by a guy that has a hated rivalry against someone in the higher ranks (Kaido or vegapunk)
-whose minions include an intangible girl, a giant monster, a doctor, and a lot of fodder
-who is building an artificial army of animal people with devil fruits (that Chopper will get pissed at but not really do anything to)
-that wants to capture a strawhat to use them to power up their army
-that has captured a lot innocent test subjects that are still living on the island and
-one swordman guy the strawhats are interacting with that keeps running off to do his own thing
-with a surprise Shichibukai showing up
-and a counting clock as a force of nature will kill them all in 5 minutes. (sunrise, smoke monster)

I mean, there's a lot of overlap in OP arcs and stories if you cut it down to the most basic level, because you can always break it down to "Luffy arrives on island, befriends civilians, beats the badguy, makes lives better" at the core of any arc… but there was a TON of overlap here in terms of execution and themes.

@Monkey:

What on earth is it about Punk Hazard that makes people go crazy?

I think its the first 3 or so chapters, where it had things like the ice/fire island, the dragons, the body parts man, giant children, and the reappearance of Smoker, all in fast order, that it felt like Oda was back in top creative form with weird wacky creative stuff and unpredictablity, which was really promising after the lackluster FI, and folks apply that feel to the whole arc… when it really didn't keep that pace or level of promise for long.

[Monkey King]

I didn't even like that early stuff much. It seemed too randomly thrown together, like Hiro Mashima style creativity rather than the usual Oda.

CENTAURS, SAMURAIS, DRAGONS, FIREICE LEVEL FROM MARIO GALAXY etc.

[valiantt]

Considering how it felt like the "run" from the gas lasted FOREVER (only to show in the end that the gas in itself is not at all THAT threatening since there is a supposed cure). However, it managed to maintain some of it's intrigue by adding in Vergo, Law's background and Doflamingo's relevance to the work.

Speaking of random thrown-togetherness: Rock and Scotch anyone? Oda certainly could have utilized these two better.

[Monkey King]

I also really fucking hate Tashigi's post timeskip design.

[valiantt]

@Monkey:

I also really fucking hate Tashigi's post timeskip design.

Is it the boobs?

[Gliblord]

@Monkey:

I didn't even like that early stuff much. It seemed too randomly thrown together, like Hiro Mashima style creativity rather than the usual Oda.

CENTAURS, SAMURAIS, DRAGONS, FIREICE LEVEL FROM MARIO GALAXY etc.

I'm a sucker for that stuff though

And Mashima "creativity" is having something suspenseful happen and then relieving that suspense immediately afterwards. So Mashima would have body parts samurai and then resolve that mystery in page 4 of the next chapter, leaving all readers everywhere underwhelmed

[Monkey King]

@valiantt:

Is it the boobs?

Really everything about her now sucks.
What happened to the Tashigi we saw in Alabasta who was plausibly dressed and haired, was more of a clutz than a bimbo with swords, and had this really cool action sequence and internal struggle scene or two regarding Crocodile.

[Gliblord]

Confession: I didn't even really like the Zoro and Tashigi thing when it first popped up

[Daz]

@Monkey:

Really everything about her now sucks.
What happened to the Tashigi we saw in Alabasta who was plausibly dressed and haired, was more of a clutz than a bimbo with swords, and had this really cool action sequence and internal struggle scene or two regarding Crocodile.

I'm still amazed that neither Tashigi nor Robin had any reaction to being shoved in a cage together.

Considering the former was left a bloody, broken mess on the ground last time they met.

[valiantt]

@The:

I'm still amazed that neither Tashigi nor Robin had any reaction to being shoved in a cage together.

Considering the former was left a bloody, broken mess on the ground last time they met.

Just like the audience, and Oda. I'm sure most forgot that these two actually met before in rather violent terms (PS: Or she probably forgot how Robin looked considering her TS design…bleh).

[Noqanky]

I always felt Smoker and Tashigi were rather poorly served by the time-skip, both in design and ability given both of them had already had their wake up call about their ambitions at Alabasta. Them getting constantly owned by everyone in the arc completely diminished the fact they've been for two years in the new world getting stronger.

Regarding Punk Hazard, I enjoyed the fast pace and mystery at the beginning, but it fell quickly. What kept it alive for me, and what has lasted to this point, was the ongoing story arc of Joker. Made it more about the world itself and not just what was happening in the lab.

[Sereques]

@Monkey:

Really everything about her now sucks.
What happened to the Tashigi we saw in Alabasta who was plausibly dressed and haired, was more of a clutz than a bimbo with swords, and had this really cool action sequence and internal struggle scene or two regarding Crocodile.

She's still reserved, we only saw the boobs thing when she was switched with Smoker. She's a Captain now, and she's more sure of herself. Surely those clumsiness should go away.

[Katzztar]

I agree, Tashigi wasn't the bimbo - it was Smoker in her body that acted like a bimbo - the perv :ninja:
Unlike Nami or Robin who are comfortable showing that much skin, Tashigi was embarrassed that Smoker opened up her shirt, yelling at him when he first exposed her body, then still glare at him when they got returned to their own bodies and she was able to quickly re-button up

[Monkey King]

@Sereques:

She's still reserved, we only saw the boobs thing when she was switched with Smoker. She's a Captain now, and she's more sure of herself. Surely those clumsiness should go away.

Yeah except she's not at all.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Katzztar:

I agree, Tashigi wasn't the bimbo - it was Smoker in her body that acted like a bimbo - the perv :ninja:
Unlike Nami or Robin who are comfortable showing that much skin, Tashigi was embarrassed that Smoker opened up her shirt, yelling at him when he first exposed her body, then still glare at him when they got returned to their own bodies and she was able to quickly re-button up

So you have no idea what bimbo means. Cool.

[Katzztar]

Cool, people have different meanings of Bimbo, how wonderful life is that we don't agree.

Perhaps I misunderstood where you came from calling Tashigi a bimbo. I had presumed you were talking about her going around with an opened shirt. I do appologieze for making an assumption and will correct that now by asking WHY do you think Tashigi is a bimbo?

As for 'not knowing what a bimbo is', well as I joked at the top, people have different meanings, it doesn't mean "they don't know".
Some people see bimbo as a girl who is
A- dresses provocatively (such as going around with an open shirt and no bra)
B- flirts shamelessly (some -though not I- consider Sanji a male bimbo)
C- has promiscuous sex
D- Pretty face, great bod but an idiot ( I admit I forgot this one when responding earlier)
E - any combo or all of above

Pease take note of the words "SOME PEOPLE", this means that we can have different meanings and neither of us are wrong or better than the other's definition.

[Palpitoad93]

In this context, no you have the wrong definition of a bimbo.

[auem]

@Mikan:

That would be a ridiculous trope to use at this point, after such a big deal was made of Luffy losing Ace (to the point that it has come up again as a plot point with the mera mera fruit). Luffy (and the others) trained so hard for two years … only to be unable to protect another person? That wouldn't push the story forward, but stagnate it.

Training made them good enough to survive in the NW…not invincible....i have no doubt not a single crewmate will die in this adventure...but failing to save a friend is not out of bound...just to show Luffy is only humane in the end....

I think Oda held up Jinbei for bigger purpose than just being a crewmate...

[T]

@auem:

Training made them good enough to survive in the NW…not invincible....i have no doubt not a single crewmate will die in this adventure...but failing to save a friend is not out of bound...just to show Luffy is only humane in the end....

I think Oda held up Jinbei for bigger purpose than just being a crewmate...

If Jinbe is bound to die then he would have joined earlier because the chances of Luffy failing to protect his friends decreases as his strength increases which is happening right now and the only reason i think Jinbe joining has been postponed is to make Luffy and his crew more infamous and noticeably more powerful than an Ex-Shichibukai.

[auem]

@tejas,

Jinbei's death is not the only solution in my mind….but aside from that chances of Luffy failing to protect somebody only increases as time goes by...not the other way round...he lost Ace,you can't expect him to lose another person near and dear to him so early in the NW....

[T]

not losing any of his nakama is the whole point of timeskip and jinbe is going to join quite early in the NW. I think there will be no more timeskips just improvising and growing arc by arc.

[Palpitoad93]

No, not losing any more friends is not the point of the timeskip. Ensuring Chopper/Usopp/Nami don't get fodderized by everyone and Luffy goes in with Haki is the point of the timeskip. You have to keep in mind that Jimbe is about 15 years older than every Strawhat besides Brook. I would not be surprised one bit if Jimbe kicks the bucket and we get a younger fishman joining. There's a very good chance that Jimbe gets killed to hype up someone like BB/Kidd/Drake/Hawkins. It would certainly put a lot more value into a fight with them.

[T]

Then there is a better chance that Jinbe joins and stays alive becuase there are no hints in the manga so far to support what the above poster said and even less likely to get a fishman nakama out of the blue. But Jinbe dying is a reason commonly used by Jinbe haters who get confused between what's likely to happen and what they'd like to happen.

[Robby]

@Palpitoad93:

No, not losing any more friends is not the point of the timeskip.

Yes. Yes it was.

Ensuring Chopper/Usopp/Nami don't get fodderized by everyone and Luffy goes in with Haki is the point of the timeskip.

The entire crew trained to be able to hold up to the standards of the enw world and not be a burden and be able to support their captain, putting their own dreams and humility aside. The entire crew.

That includes Zoro throwing away his pride to beg Mihawk for training and Sanji going without women.

You have to keep in mind that Jimbe is about 15 years older than every Strawhat besides Brook.

He's only a couple years older than Franky. And yes, fifty years younger than Brook. And Chopper is younger than all of them. Age isn't a factor. (And most of Jinbe's life thus far has been in service to others, its not much of a lived life.)

I would not be surprised one bit if Jimbe kicks the bucket and we get a younger fishman joining.

So after having Jinbe hang around for nearly 200 chapters, being the only crewmate with Luffy during his time of need, someone who knew him before the time skip, that has a ton of built up history with him now including having known his brother, plus a multi year wait in real life for a couple hundred more chapters, he's going to be randomly killed to be replaced with a fresh face?

There's a very good chance that Jimbe gets killed to hype up someone like BB/Kidd/Drake/Hawkins. It would certainly put a lot more value into a fight with them.

Oda-san doesn't hype characters by having them dish out death at random. He can't even kill nameless background characters. Arlong and Aikanu aside, when was the last time a villain actually killed someone?

[Aaronrules380]

So, what would be the point of Luffy inviting Jinbe to join his crew and Jinbe ACCEPTING if he was just going to kill Jinbe a few hundred chapters later. It makes no sense and would be bad writing on Oda's part. Even if he wanted someone to be killed like that (and it's Oda so he clearly doesn't), he'd do it pretty immediately after acceptance so the shock and drama is greater, not a few hundred chapters after Jinbe decided to join. If Oda wanted Jinbe to be just an ally, that scene need never have existed and would actually be awful writing

[Cymelion]

You know we could always poll people to see how many think he will die vs those who don't - if you do make it anon though. I know the first instinct is to name and shame those who might feel this way but if it's anon then people would be more willing to vote without being judged at least then you'd have a fair understanding of how many people feel this way.