I have got an "Elf arc in Black Clover" vibe coming from that last page.
By that I mean that Joy Boy will take over his body, display new uses of the Gomu DF and then Luffy will fight back to regain control and keep the new skills(=Gear 5? ).
I have got an "Elf arc in Black Clover" vibe coming from that last page.
By that I mean that Joy Boy will take over his body, display new uses of the Gomu DF and then Luffy will fight back to regain control and keep the new skills(=Gear 5? ).
Oda's statements below make sense now. Looking forward to Wano's "surprising" ending confirmed by Toei staff.:wub:
Oda: Pay attention to Luffy. (2021)
Next time Nika appears, he'll show his face. (2021)
Audience won't be satisfied if Luffy beats Kaido with just a strong punch. (2016)
Skypiea party is his 3rd favorite in the series, where the same SFX was used as "drums of liberation"(2020)
!
Oda's statements below make sense now. Looking forward to Wano's "surprising" ending confirmed by Toei staff.:wub:
Oda: Pay attention to Luffy. (2021)
Next time Nika appears, he'll show his face. (2021)
Audience won't be satisfied if Luffy beats Kaido with just a strong punch. (2016)
Skypiea party is his 3rd favorite in the series, where the same SFX was used as "drums of liberation"(2020)! [qimg]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNvRwmjVsAEbtA2.jpg[/qimg]
Yep, this stuff has been foreshadowed many times. Despite this however many people are still upset.
Becoming a reincarnation of Joyboy with the memories of the guy would be the ultimate spoiler and we know Luffy doesn't want to be spoiled. So for me, it is very doubtful Oda goes this way.
I understand Joy Boy being a title like Shiraoshi is the reincarnation of Poseidon. Maybe this is the name of the devil fruit the gorosei was talking about. Nika Nika is also suggested by the last panel sound effect. But we have to know what are the difference between Nika and Joyboy
I'm going for monkey king mythical zoan. I Guess the Best name would be: mythical zoan human human model king of monkeys. Sounds better then mythical zoan monkey monkey no mi model king.
Becoming a reincarnation of Joyboy with the memories of the guy would be the ultimate spoiler and we know Luffy doesn't want to be spoiled. So for me, it is very doubtful Oda goes this way.
I understand Joy Boy being a title like Shiraoshi is the reincarnation of Poseidon. Maybe this is the name of the devil fruit the gorosei was talking about. Nika Nika is also suggested by the last panel sound effect. But we have to know what are the difference between Nika and Joyboy
Good point about the spoiler.
As far as the Nika/Joy Boy connection is concerned, I would that Nika is the name and Joy Boy the nickname. Joy Boy sounds like a bad given name if we're honest.
While I don't know for sure if Luffy will have a personality change, I can say that there have been at least two 'crisis' modes in the past where a chapter ended and people thought Luffy's personality would permanently change…it never did.
If none of this pans out to be what people are chicken littleing themselves over, it's going to be a lot of stress and fear over, nothing. The panic mode is really off the charts for some reason.
Lots of crazy speculation going on about foreshadowing etc.
It's as if red string was on sale.
Paying attention to Luffy is something we always do.
The struggle was never going to end with just Luffy punching alone because it's Momotarou.
Oda liked the Skypiea party because it was one of his greatest party scenes and I can tell you not only past interviews but also personal discussion, Oda's absolute favorite scenes are parties and Skypiea is easily one of the grandest.
But if you really wanna pay attention to a party scene for foreshadowing, it's that one.
It'd be pretty underwhelming if it is all just a plain fakeout death, where Luffy just awakens a new power and the plot elephant was either mistaken about joy boy or it was some this is technically true thing. I hate the idea of there being a literal joy boy in this mess, but i also believe that doing nothing more than just giving him a power up would feel like a complete waste of time. Feels a little Mortons fork-y
While I don't know for sure if Luffy will have a personality change, I can say that there have been at least two 'crisis' modes in the past where a chapter ended and people thought Luffy's personality would permanently change…it never did.
While I can't seem to remember a scene where this might have happened I'm quite sure they had nothing to do with Joy Boy returning and having Luffy's forehead or his Strawhat going Venom symbiote (which is a term I'm using super loosely).
I know what you are trying to say mate. But I don't think the situations can be compared. And there will always be all kinds of reactions with a series that has many followers. I mean basically every character that appeared in One Piece at some point has had some throw the label "next crewmate" after them. Didn't mean that it happened though.
Anyways, one thing I can say for certain though. In all my years of reading One Piece this has to be the worst point to have a break.XD
Regardless of how this thing shakes out next, week, it still suffers this week from the fact that whatever this powerup is isn't unlocked through some burst of emotion or new transcendent insight or something, Its just booted up after Luffy has been fully KO'd (…a short while after the exact same thing already happened). It doesn't feel like something Luffy has actively earned when it happens like that, it really is just shonen manga trope 101 - but that doesn't mean people should like it. Getting an emotional and rousing last surge of strength where you exhaust all your reserves is one thing, unlocking a whole new tier of power while left for dead in a ditch is something else.
And of course this being the fourth time Luffy has bounced back from being totally spent and/or unconscious in the same fight doesn't help.
and the plot elephant was either mistaken about joy boy
It's definitely not mistaken.
I guess I'm curious as why there's so much assigning Luffy being a different person over, Luffy carrying the same kind of conviction. The kind that will create change.
While I can't seem to remember a scene where this might have happened I'm quite sure they had nothing to do with Joy Boy returning and having Luffy's forehead or his Strawhat going Venom symbiote (which is a term I'm using super loosely).
That's the thing. Joyboy wasn't even in people's vocab then. It was a lot of hubbub over something that was ultimately…nothing.
I suppose I'm not sure why people are convinced this is a 'take-over' and not just Luffy.
Nika was Nika. Nika was called Joy Boy.
Luffy is Luffy. Luffy will probably be called Joy Boy.
And the similarities aren't gonna end with a fruit, that's for sure.
And if I'm right about Nika Nika Fruit, it has nothing to do with insane crazy new resin/oil/vulcanized abilities, just...he can essentially make the world (and people?!) a bounce house at will. Might be useful when there's an island about to fall.
Remember, by rule of Shonen, whatever crazy shit Luffy pulls off, it has to be close to(if not exceed) whatever Kaido has done, so what he does has to be on the same level as the clouds.
Ultimately it's not that I'm complaining about theorization has momentum. Discussion is the lifeblood of manga. Just, it seems to be going very negative based on very little info.
Anime opportunity: The instant Joyffy does his little Nika grin, the 4kids rap kicks in as the theme music power up "He's made of ____" "How did that happen?" "Yohoho he took a bite of ___ ____"
Would give toei a kidney
Hahahaha !
It's definitely not mistaken.
I guess I'm curious as why there's so much assigning Luffy being a different person over, Luffy carrying the same kind of conviction. The kind that will create change.
That's the thing. Joyboy wasn't even in people's vocab then. It was a lot of hubbub over something that was ultimately…nothing.
I guess I'm not sure why people are convinced this is a 'take-over' and not just Luffy.
Maybe there is some linguistic quirk i'm not picking up on, because if the elephant said i can hear the drums of liberation again i would be on board in thinking he is just feeling a similar power aura whatever. But when he says joy boy has returned, then walking it back feels like if i walked into a room and your friends all said hey Greg is back and then go oh yeah no that's just wolfwood with same aura. Which could very well be true, that joy boy isn't back and this is all down to some semantical and overly dramatic fake out. But i just find the idea of it being nothing more than click-bait and a way to give Luffy a skill to beat Kaido to be a waste of my time. Either shit or get of the pot don't turtlehead while hovering above the rim
It's definitely not mistaken.
I guess I'm curious as why there's so much assigning Luffy being a different person over, Luffy carrying the same kind of conviction. The kind that will create change.
That's the thing. Joyboy wasn't even in people's vocab then. It was a lot of hubbub over something that was ultimately…nothing.
I guess I'm not sure why people are convinced this is a 'take-over' and not just Luffy.
Nika was Nika. Nika was called Joy Boy.
Luffy is Luffy. Luffy will probably be called Joy Boy.
And the similarities aren't gonna end with a fruit, that's for sure.
And if I'm right about Nika Nika Fruit, it has nothing to do with insane crazy new resin/oil/vulcanized abilities, just...he can essentially make the world (and people?!) a bounce house at will. Might be useful when there's an island about to fall.
Remember, by rule of Shonen, whatever crazy shit Luffy pulls off, it has to be close (if not exceed) Kaido, so whatever he does has to be on the same level as the clouds.
Ultimately it's not that I'm complaining about the direction theorization is going, just it seems to be going very negative based on very little info.
Nice points there, Greg.
I have expressed my concerns in the spoiler thread, but I really really really REALLY hope that I am wrong about this whole "transformation" thing in the end.
Luffy doesn't need some other person, personality, entity inside his head/take over his thoughts/etc., who ultimately will do his job for him.
I don't care if others call Luffy Nika, Joy Boy, Chosen One or whatever.
That's how others see him, they project their hopes and dreams on him, because they see him in action.
We will have to wait 2 or 3 weeks to find out the complete answer for our questions, doubts…
It's definitely not mistaken.
I guess I'm curious as why there's so much assigning Luffy being a different person over, Luffy carrying the same kind of conviction. The kind that will create change.
That's the thing. Joyboy wasn't even in people's vocab then. It was a lot of hubbub over something that was ultimately…nothing.
I suppose I'm not sure why people are convinced this is a 'take-over' and not just Luffy.
Nika was Nika. Nika was called Joy Boy.
Luffy is Luffy. Luffy will probably be called Joy Boy.
And the similarities aren't gonna end with a fruit, that's for sure.
And if I'm right about Nika Nika Fruit, it has nothing to do with insane crazy new resin/oil/vulcanized abilities, just...he can essentially make the world (and people?!) a bounce house at will. Might be useful when there's an island about to fall.
Remember, by rule of Shonen, whatever crazy shit Luffy pulls off, it has to be close to(if not exceed) whatever Kaido has done, so what he does has to be on the same level as the clouds.
But like, Luffy was there at Zou too - its not the first time Zuneisha has been exposed to him. And he was still the same guy back then, its not as if Luffys character has changed in the time since - the main difference is that Luffy has been concussed a few times, and is only now, with this sponteneous powerup, manifesting proper Joy Boy vibes for the elephant to remark on. So its not so much about Luffys convictions/character, which was always present, but specifically whatever this new "mode" is.
Most theories about what the real fruit really is are complete shit, it aint no questioning that.
It'll be plain and simple if Luffy's awakening just turns his surroundings into rubber, but then the Gorosei talk about its real name would go nowhere(but tbh honest I like this development).
I remember myself claiming turning Onigashima into rubber to make it bounce solves nothing because it's still too massive and it would easily kill people anyways, but eeey, if anything, Onigashima is constantly losing mass, the final chunk of it actually reaching Flower Capital might not be that big, and it'll be extra points if Joyffy can shape it whatever way he wishes to.
Make it fit into the tip of Mount Fuji, that'll piss Kaido off for sure.
Paying attention to Luffy is something we always do.
The struggle was never going to end with just Luffy punching alone because it's Momotarou.
Oda liked the Skypiea party because it was one of his greatest party scenes and I can tell you not only past interviews but also personal discussion, Oda's absolute favorite scenes are parties and Skypiea is easily one of the grandest.But if you really wanna pay attention to a party scene for foreshadowing, it's that one.
I see. Thank you for enlighten me, Greg-sensei!
It'd be pretty underwhelming if it is all just a plain fakeout death, where Luffy just awakens a new power and the plot elephant was either mistaken about joy boy or it was some this is technically true thing. I hate the idea of there being a literal joy boy in this mess, but i also believe that doing nothing more than just giving him a power up would feel like a complete waste of time. Feels a little Mortons fork-y
I dont think Luffy need to be the have been invaded by the old joyboy spirit for it to mean something. It can just your classic you're exactly like that person from 100 years or I can feel their aura in you stuff. When Naruto turned out he was a reincarnation he didnt change personality or anything. He just was revealed to be a reincarnation and had a new mode.
Who's ready?
Oda about to make that fire punch make more sense. Nika's hair looked like it was on fire too. Bad observation over
I dont think Luffy need to be the have been invaded by the old joyboy spirit for it to mean something. It can just your classic you're exactly like that person from 100 years or I can feel their aura in you stuff. When Naruto turned out he was a reincarnation he didnt change personality or anything. He just was revealed to be a reincarnation and had a new mode.
But like, in this case the new mode specifically is what makes Zuneisha go "JOY BOY IS HERE!". If it was all about vibes, the elephant should have been clued in at Zou
I find it frustrating that some people just hang around commenting about how they don't want this or they don't want that as if all is written in stone. As if there's a 100% probability that this is going to ruin the series although we literally know nothing yet. I understand the excitement or wanting to theorize about something but maybe you can try and see if you can find a possitive way this can play out instead of only focussing on the negative stuff.
What, to you, could make this an interesting turn of events?
@Daz:
But like, in this case the new mode specifically is what makes Zuneisha go "JOY BOY IS HERE!". If it was all about vibes, the elephant should have been clued in at Zou
Not if the awakening of the fruit or a fight of this level (which the Gorosei were talking about) is the actual trigger. Zou dit not really have any high level fights nor a fruit awakening.
I will reserve judgement over the Joy Boy takeover situation once I learn which one of the 10 different doomsday scenarios people are claiming is guaranteed to happen is the one we will get.
In other words, complaining about plot developments in a serial story that haven't happened yet makes no sense and I'm disappointed people still do it in 2022.
Not if the awakening of the fruit or a fight of this level (which the Gorosei were talking about) is the actual trigger. Zou dit not really have any high level fights nor a fruit awakening.
Well yeah, thats what I'm saying. That the idea that "this is all about Luffys PERSONALITY, he's LIKE Joyboy" doesn't hold water, because the deciding factor is whatever this happening-outside-of-Luffys-control-while-KOd powerup is.
I will reserve judgement over the Joy Boy takeover situation once I learn which one of the 10 different doomsday scenarios people are claiming is guaranteed to happen is the one we will get.
In other words, complaining about plot developments in a serial story that haven't happened yet makes no sense and I'm disappointed people still do it in 2022.
I thought we were discussing alternatives?
I thought we were discussing alternatives?
Discussing alternatives makes sense. Declaring the manga ruined forever because of one alternative you think is more likely than the others is massively jumping the gun.
It's definitely not mistaken.
I guess I'm curious as why there's so much assigning Luffy being a different person over, Luffy carrying the same kind of conviction. The kind that will create change.
Because Luffy´s awe-inspiring joyful personality was there since day one and the elephant only acknowledged his "conviction" after Luffy experienced a clinical death.
The whole sequence in the chapter 1. silence, no heartbeat, empty eyes -> 2. pronounced "dead" by 3 separate characters -> 3. heartbeat back on, large grin -> 4. elephant proclaiming Joy Boy has returned implies something has changed. Here we are trying to figure out what exactly that is.
If it´s just his life beliefs solidifying to a Joy Boy vibe like you say, it makes me wonder if Oda believes a near death experience is needed for a human to upgrade his life enjoyment and happines inspiration to an ultimate level. I´m sure it does make you reconsider your life goals and all, but IMO it´s not an inspirational thing like standing up and saying "I can do this all day" if you understand what I mean.
Me as a reader can´t sympathise with something like a clinical death, it´s very rare, it´s not "aspirational content", dunno how else to describe it.
Luffy: "Oh, I died for a second there, now I´m back and figured it all out shishishi, let´s party like there´s no tomorrow, even harder than before, until the end of times! Even if you don´t wanna, I´ll make you bounce baby! It´s gonna be legendary!"
Elephant: "Now THAT´s what I´m talking about, welcome back brother!"
It makes me honestly a tiny bit sad that a large party is among the favorite scenes of the author, because at the end of the day, parties are just meaningless.
I personally love Luffy because he´s straightforward, carefree and brave (which I sometimes struggle with), not because he likes to party…and this whole Nika dance god business is going in a more hedonistic direction than I might personally be able to digest.
Take away the elephant Joy Boy reappearing talk and the awakening scene works alright for me.
I find it frustrating that some people just hang around commenting about how they don't want this or they don't want that as if all is written in stone. As if there's a 100% probability that this is going to ruin the series although we literally know nothing yet. I understand the excitement or wanting to theorize about something but maybe you can try and see if you can find a possitive way this can play out instead of only focussing on the negative stuff.
What, to you, could make this an interesting turn of events?
I read a theory about Luffy´s restarted heart beating extremely fast now and causing and upgraded G2 effect, where his body heats up much more up to a point where his gum gum melts.
I would then like to see him having a red fire skin / glowing aura like awakened effect with the ability to manipulate the state of his rubber creatively as always.
Remember how happy he was in Impel Down when Mr. 3 gave him wax armour?
This reminds me of the Oden flashback situation, where after the scene where Oden started dancing naked, a good chunk of the fandom decided Oden was doing that for no reason other than that he was a coward and felt like doing it, and there weren't any other hidden reasons for it. Because if Oda hasn't shown it yet, it doesn't exist.
Then a few weeks later it was - GASP! - revealed Oden had a reason to dance naked. The fandom made a collective surprised Pikachu face and started praising the story again.
@Daz:
Well yeah, thats what I'm saying. That the idea that "this is all about Luffys PERSONALITY, he's LIKE Joyboy" doesn't hold water, because the deciding factor is whatever this happening-outside-of-Luffys-control-while-KOd powerup is.
Well, that's what I mean. You claim to know that "happening-outside-of-Luffys-control-while-KOd" is a matter of fact while it isn't or that it "can't" be Luffy's personality being similar to Joyboy. You even use the second non-factual thing to validate the first non-factual thing you said.
The point is that the story takes un unexpected turn and Oda has always been one to throw a curve ball. It is however nonsensical (although not a fact) to think that Oda would throw out all the themes he has shown Luffy to be heavily invested in like freedom of choice (or freedom in general), adventure, happy-go-lucky lifestyle, ambition, … and just his personality in generaly and changes it in the end-stretch of the series. Oda would not have brought these things to the forefront if they would be thrown out of the window in the end.
This reminds me of the Oden flashback situation, where after the scene where Oden started dancing naked, a good chunk of the fandom decided Oden was doing that for no reason other than that he was a coward and felt like doing it, and there weren't any other hidden reasons for it. Because if Oda hasn't shown it yet, it doesn't exist.
Then a few weeks later it was - GASP! - revealed Oden had a reason to dance naked. The fandom made a collective surprised Pikachu face and started praising the story again.
I feel like the majority of those that had a problem with Oden still had a problem with Oden by the end.
I feel like the majority of those that had a problem with Oden still had a problem with Oden by the end.
Sure, it doesn't change the fact I had to spend weeks arguing with people who honestly thought Oden had just suddenly done a 180 turn out of Orochi's castle and started dancing naked because he felt like it.
Because there is some rule saying you have to believe the thing you saw in the latest chapter is the only thing that could possibly happened and any hidden twists are impossible.
By the same logic, one shouldn't praise anything they liked from any given chapter, beacuse a following development could potentially turn that to shit.
Like, imagine what a fool looks now someone who back during Enies Lobby said something like "i like that the most valuable treasure for our hero is a completely worthless piece of garment which has no particular meaning to anybody but him in the world"
What if Joy Boy is still just a title and Zunisha is having that reaction because Luffy is doing something the last Joy Boy also did (awaken the Gomu Gomu no Mi)? And for some reason I don't know, the fruit only awakens after the user dies, and then revives the user while making a heartbeat sound that Zunisha eventually associated as "drums of liberty" due to Joy Boy being a rebel leader of sorts?
Here, simple explanation that kills the whole reincarnation/chosen one angle and is equally possible.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
By the same logic, one shouldn't praise anything they liked from any given chapter, beacuse a following development could potentially turn that to shit.
You can praise/criticize what you just saw.
Praising/criticizing what you think will happen next week is shortsighted.
If the condition for joyboy's "awakening" is 1.death 2.devil fruit pushed to the limits 3.user pushed to the limits, I would have been fine. But if it is just 1.death, then it does feel undeserved. All I want is a mention that this power is only unlocked because luffy has pushed his df to its limits and dying was also a condition. It could be a parallel to Kaido's fish fish fruit turning him into a dragon and a flashback could show that Kaido has died to awaken his dragon form. The problem then is Luffy has not awaken his fruit and awakening has always been, imo, a criteria of pushing your fruit to its limits. If this is linked to awakening, then Law and Kidd and other awaken users would have to "died" once but when you consider the number of awakening users, this doesn't make sense for all of them to have faced this situation. All this is just to say I only find it reasonable if death is NOT the only criteria and Luffy only unlocked this new power up through hard work and is a selected few (like Kaido) to have pushed the devil fruit to its creative/physical limits.
Well, that's what I mean. You claim to know that "happening-outside-of-Luffys-control-while-KOd" is a matter of fact while it isn't or that it "can't" be Luffy's personality being similar to Joyboy. You even use the second non-factual thing to validate the first non-factual thing you said.
…but it literally is happening while Luffy is KO'd? You say that it is "not a fact" but like, Kaidou beat Luffy unconscious. That happened. You can't argue it didn't. And now, Luffy is resurging from his coma with some sort of newfound ability, which he literally cannot have actively learnt or acquired because, again, he was unconscious. Its not a result of some insight or breakthrough on Luffys part because theres nothing substantially different about his present encounter with Kaidou prior to the last to trigger it, and also an active breakthrough on Luffys part would require him being...conscious. Unless you're going "Maybe Luffy underwent time-compressed inner-world training while in his coma, you don't know that"
As for the second part, the personality thing: Luffy was at Zou. The elephant was here while Luffy was conscious and fighting Kaidou. With his same personality and goals at either time. Yet it is ONLY at this time of literal "awakening" that Zuneisha goes "Oh! Its Joyboy!". I am struglling heavily to see how that is not a ""fact"". Like, you tell me then why if it is solely down to Luffys personality why is it tied to THIS specific moment and not literally any time Zuneisha has been exposed to Luffy prior? Oda put the elements statement at this point for a reason - occams razor is that Luffy has gone from being not Joyboy to Joyboy in the elephants mind as of this moment, as opposed to "Maybe the elephant is just slow on the uptake or whatever, we don't know, he could've realized this at any point and it has no significance being at this moment"
Praising/criticizing what you think will happen next week is shortsighted.
There are exceptions though. This is going to be a power-up and many have mentioned that it might feel unearned. Even if literally dying is a way to unlock it, this still feels unearned. This feels like a cheap comparison but Super Saiyan and Ichigo's hollow form are great popular examples that is part of this trope. The user is not "aware" and has not "prepared" this power but has gained access to it in the middle of a fight he was clearing losing. The execution changes how it is delivered and how we feel about it but the core of it is still a power-up that is executed not by the protag's own willpower and decisions but through "fate" aka writing aka plot necessity. I'm confident Oda will handle it well but people calling it out is a reasonable reaction. There are several things in One Piece that can be criticized ahead of chapters release because this series have been running for years and there are patterns that is observed. E.g: no one will die because there needs to be a happy party at the end, luffy's first encounter with the arc villain will enroute him somewhere else where he spends a year in before the climax fight, a time bomb happening every arc and in recent chapters, Zoro's senzu pill has more possibility of having zero real consequences than really impairing him. It's mostly educated guesses based on previous observations from writing patterns of Oda, there's little short sightedness to be found in such cases. I do agree with instances such as the Oden's case though but Oden is still, in my opinion, of the worst written characters in the series in recent history.
You can praise/criticize what you just saw.
Praising/criticizing what you think will happen next week is shortsighted.
I agree, except what happens next has to make sense, so trying to guess/speculate of what the most likely and "plausible" outcomes will be is completely fair and really the same thing as commenting on what we just saw.
clearlyt comments like "this completely ruins everything because now it's about reincarnation" are exagerated and jumping to conclusions too hastly, but those are like, what, 1 out of 20 criticisms about a general trend in the story that people have not been fine with for quite some time now?
We have a litteral elephant in the room saying "My friend, who i personally knew 800 years ago, is back". He doesn't say "it's just like him". It's like, sticking to your example, the narrator box said "Oden started dancing naked for no particular reason". If a realiable source give you such crucial information, you should be allowed to draw conclusions from that information.
I'm not really looking to praise or criticize. I'm just trying to put together a puzzle with the pieces i have in front of me.
if the elephant said i can hear the drums of liberation again i would be on board in thinking he is just feeling a similar power aura whatever. But when he says joy boy has returned
He can hear his heartbeat. It’s the heartbeat of the chosen one… it’s unique… the greatest hit ever… :ninja:
I'm not really looking to praise or criticize. I'm just trying to put together a puzzle with the pieces i have in front of me.
Just make sure you're not trying to build a gun when you have the parts to a nutcracker
I dont think Luffy need to be the have been invaded by the old joyboy spirit for it to mean something. It can just your classic you're exactly like that person from 100 years or I can feel their aura in you stuff. When Naruto turned out he was a reincarnation he didnt change personality or anything. He just was revealed to be a reincarnation and had a new mode.
'Reincarnation' in Naruto ended with just fate/spirit thingy. Naruto wasn't possessed by Asura, but carried his spirit(literal). Same for Sasuke. But Naruto always had some other entity remaining inside the host. OP till now hasn't officially gone to that route. DF is sole power, not living entity even if it can make inanimate object alive.
At the end of the day, I can't read the flow of events as anything but Kaidou beats Luffy unconscious–> some sort of powerup is triggered in Luffy-->Zuneisha goes "Joyboy is back". Thats the most straightforward read, and means that Zuneisha goes "Joyboy is back" in response to this specific transformation which happens because Kaidou beat Luffy unconscíous.
Saying this isn't the case feels like putting the cart before the horse, of going "Its not like that because that seems bad, and Oda wouldn't let it be bad, so its not like that"
This reminds me of the Oden flashback situation, where after the scene where Oden started dancing naked, a good chunk of the fandom decided Oden was doing that for no reason other than that he was a coward and felt like doing it, and there weren't any other hidden reasons for it. Because if Oda hasn't shown it yet, it doesn't exist.
Then a few weeks later it was - GASP! - revealed Oden had a reason to dance naked. The fandom made a collective surprised Pikachu face and started praising the story again.
You only read stupid fandom then. For a serious reader it was pretty clear that there was a reason. Many didn't accept it because it was stupid to do so no matter the circumstances and they were proven right with the kind of ending Oden achieved.He saved nobody and left everything to Momo and JoyBoy's hand.
But when he says joy boy has returned, then walking it back feels like
if i walked into a room and your friends all said hey Greg is back and
then go oh yeah no that's just wolfwood with same aura.
But if you said, "Hey that One Piece freak from Japan is back!" you wouldn't be wrong, right? Joy Boy has always felt like a title. When Nika appeared I immediately went, "Ah, okay. Here's our Joy Boy….or one of them at least."
That's kinda what I mean about being careful to attributing meaning to some of this stuff. I mean....we all do it. It's not wrong by any stretch. But if we assume too long too hard in one direction, it can really mess up enjoyment.
THAT SAID
This is all in the context of being someone who has had the opportunity to have my ass absolutely served to me on a silver platter by the editors. So many times I talked matter-of-factly about the series with them and they always pause for a second and go, "Well, actually, he never stated/showed/explained XYZ explicitly." Causing me to leave my mouth on the floor ^o^
But like, Luffy was there at Zou too
Great point! But Luffy was still exercising some of his strengths. For instance, he was still on the same level as Roger, being able to hear Zunisha but this is the first time he may have actually gone above and beyond.
I think, ultimately the difference is….
A lot of this may have to do with the soul aspect and death.
I'm still not crazy about the reaper actually being a real reaper but I've talked about how that may be a way for Oda to give us a soft entry into the concept of souls in the world. There's a reason that while on the verge of death: Roger, Oden, Luffy, Ace, and others have all shown smiles. Maybe Luffy didn't permadeath, but he was pretty darn close to it (or at least it's been presented to us that way so we're supposed to think so, though I'd say he was in bad shape at Impel Down ^o^) whatever happened in the inbetwixt is what's different about Luffy just tromping around on Zunisha's back. That doesn't necessarily mean being reborn or reincarnated. It could literally be an experience.
Anyway, disregarding pachyderms for a second, if the awakened-by-death path for the !gom-gom is confirmed (instead of the somewhat preferable but unlikely awakened-despite-death)… it just piles onthe apalling incompetence displayed by the WG in dealing with this whole "fruit that shall not be named" deal.
Like, after keeping it secret even to yourself, having it stolen, failing to recognize it... now you make so you do the one thing you're not supposed to do in order for it to awaken? How the hell did you manage to run the world for a millenium if you fuck up so badly with a single magic apple?
unless they actually wanted it to awaken :ninja:
unless unless Shanks tricked them into killing Luff in order to JB to be reborn :ninja::ninja:
good lord how deep does this go
Both Zoro and luffy are having the death/ near death experience this arc. So If luffy is going joyboy, then Zoro is going ryuuma? Maybe the grim reaper is ryuuma soul?
The other straw hats didn't have anything Like this arc. Sanji had the whole body change in proper vinsmoke, but other straw hats either didn't have proper battle or they won, hard but not near death.
The monster trio guys are having some change this arc, preping them for what's to come next?
Anyway, disregarding pachyderms for a second, if the awakened-by-death path for the !gom-gom is confirmed (instead of the somewhat preferable but unlikely awakened-despite-death)… it just piles onthe apalling incompetence displayed by the WG in dealing with this whole "fruit that shall not be named" deal.
Like, after keeping it secret even to yourself, having it stolen, failing to recognize it... now you make so you do the one thing you're not supposed to do in order for it to awaken? How the hell did you manage to run the world for a millenium if you fuck up so badly with a single magic apple?unless they actually wanted it to awaken :ninja:
unless unless Shanks tricked them into killing Luff in order to JB to be reborn :ninja::ninja:good lord how deep does this go
Surprise plot twist: Aizen "Shanks" Sosuke actually orchestrated Luffy eating the DF pretending it being an accident. Or did you really think that Luffy could just so easily grab and eat a fruit that everyone fought so hard for to aquire?:ninja:
I can't say I'm very interested in the type of "Luffy is the Chosen One" direction this all seems to be going, but I do feel like it's a little too early to complain yet. I'm willing to wait to see where exactly Oda is going with all of this. Fact is that we really have no idea what "becoming Joyboy" really means. Why is it happening? What does it entail? What kind of powers will it unlock? Does it even really have anything to do with Luffys goal to find the One Piece and become the Pirate King? Kaido seemed to think so, or else I don't see why exactly he was interested in becoming Joyboy himself (it's not like would care about freeing any slaves), but why?
So I can't say I'm not excited about this development (if not a little wary) or interested in what's going to happen next. It's certainly executed very well in this and the last chapter, I still really dig that twist of the CP-0 meddling with the fight and inadvertently forcing Kaido to relive his unfair win against Oden. Kaido doesn't get enough credit as a character and as a villain, I really find him pretty interesting…he's such a walking contradiction! I know people are already suffering from arc fatigue, and I'm also ready at this point to enter the post-battle phase of the arc, but some kind of Kaido flashback exploring what he is all about is still a must for me from a narrative standpoint.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, I don't think Oda will have Luffy's personality be permanently overridden by the original Joyboy or anything like that. What did Oda focus on in Chapter 1,000? Luffys character, showing him caring for his friends and then declaring that he is Monkey D Luffy, and he will become the King of the Pirates. That tells me that at it's heart, this is still what the story is all about, this character's adventure on his journey to become the Pirate King, and that is what it's about for Oda, too. He will not have Luffy be basically replaced by a different person in his body all of a sudden. Maaaaaaybe for a short amount of time, but I'm sure at the end of the day, Luffy will still be Luffy. I trust Oda more than enough in this regard.
At the end of the day, Luffy will look and speak like Oden and seeing two of them once Momo changes back to human is what will actually break Kaido. :ninja:
Because! Deep down you know it, Oden was Joyboy all along.
Personally the way it goes with OP themes I still think it's much more likely it'e a title and anyone can become Joy Boy. Because:
So it makes sense to me Joy Boy is something anyone can become, or at least anyone with a D in their name.
Sure, Oda can flush all the previous themes he's followed for two decades plus and write something completely different, but to me occam's razor says he won't, and whatever we get will fit the framework he built so far.
Another thing is that Wano arc has a theme of identity. Yamato, Momo, Sanji, Robin, Kanjuro, Kiku, Big Mom, are all characters who have had some kind of identity-related struggle in this arc. Fake identities and struggles to figure out who you are everywhere. So to me, Luffy figuring out if he is himself or Joy Boy adds another instance to that theme.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Anyway, disregarding pachyderms for a second, if the awakened-by-death path for the !gom-gom is confirmed (instead of the somewhat preferable but unlikely awakened-despite-death)… it just piles onthe apalling incompetence displayed by the WG in dealing with this whole "fruit that shall not be named" deal.
Like, after keeping it secret even to yourself, having it stolen, failing to recognize it... now you make so you do the one thing you're not supposed to do in order for it to awaken? How the hell did you manage to run the world for a millenium if you fuck up so badly with a single magic apple?unless they actually wanted it to awaken :ninja:
unless unless Shanks tricked them into killing Luff in order to JB to be reborn :ninja::ninja:good lord how deep does this go
Counterpoint: in order for the WG to know the fruit is only awakened by desth, they had to have been there the last time it happened. If it has only happened once, there is a decent chance they didn't.