I been thinking there's a huge connection between Kaido asking Momo who he is, and having high expectations from children with Yamato's identity issues.
Official Wano Thread
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@Gecko:
I wonder if Kaido will have more than one hybrid transformation or if that will remain forever a Chopper-only trait.
I think part of mastering a Zoan includes control over their forms. Chopper needed a Rumble Ball initially, but eventually was able to do so without it. I bet at some point he will be able to turn Monster without it (or side effects) as well.
I like to think of Rob Lucci and Kaku. Both were able to use their mastery of Rokushiki to change their hybrid forms (Lucci had the buff and slim hybrid forms, while Kaku was even weirder in how he could mutate himself despite having his power for such a short time).
So, in short, I believe we will see more zoans with mastery over their forms. Maybe not to the extent of Chopper, who has six specialized transformations plus Monster, but maybe variant hybrids may be common.
Also, whatever an Awakened Zoan is (I think Monster Point is it), I wouldn't doubt someone like Kaido having such power.
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@Johnny:
Another thread reminded me of Gyuki/Onimaru, and we never did get a good explanation of how the little guy could transform into a human, did we?
Onimaru is one of the many questions I still have about Wano, which is why I think its barely over and Act 4 will be ridiculously long. Other questions I have:
- Hiyori, Tama, Tengu and Onimaru's roles going to the end of Wano.
- Orochi and Kanjuro's fates (I dont think their dead and tbh I think they are in Wano's mainland looking for Hiyori to do something crazy)
- The Kokeshi Dolls and why they were important to the Poneglyph location in Orochi's castle. Funny enough Tengu is a Kokeshi doll collector and we have no idea why Oda elaborated on that.
- Onigashima and why its even where it is. Its true name as Kaido hinted
Just some of the few things I remember off the top of my head. I feel like all of this has to get addressed eventually. Hell, they still have to find the Road PG in Kaido's mansion somewhere
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I think part of mastering a Zoan includes control over their forms. Chopper needed a Rumble Ball initially, but eventually was able to do so without it. I bet at some point he will be able to turn Monster without it (or side effects) as well.
I like to think of Rob Lucci and Kaku. Both were able to use their mastery of Rokushiki to change their hybrid forms (Lucci had the buff and slim hybrid forms, while Kaku was even weirder in how he could mutate himself despite having his power for such a short time).
So, in short, I believe we will see more zoans with mastery over their forms. Maybe not to the extent of Chopper, who has six specialized transformations plus Monster, but maybe variant hybrids may be common.
Also, whatever an Awakened Zoan is (I think Monster Point is it), I wouldn't doubt someone like Kaido having such power.
I think that whatever Lucci and Kaku did is not a Zoan only trait, though it I do believe that is something that is most compatible with Zoan users. Please let me explain why.
In chapter 403, page 08 and in chapter 406, page 13 & 19 Kumadori uses a technique called "seimei kikan" which was translated into life return/feedback. He uses this skill to control his hair and make it move and attack Nami respectively Chopper. Lucci uses the same name to label his beastman shapeshifting technique in chapter 423, page 13 and in chapter 427, page 09. That's a total of five times within in 24 chapters that Oda uses the name of the technique and while we know that the man is not perfect, he's not that sloppy to do this without intending for there to be a connection.
Interesting thing is that Kaku never uses the term during his shapeshifting shenanigans while Kumadori is not only not a Zoan users, he doesn't have an DF ability to begin with. So "seimei kikan" isn't really a Zoan thing. Also in chapter 520, page 04 etc. we see Boa Sandersiona make her hair change shape to attack Luffy just as Kumadori did in Enies Lobby. She might have no called it Seimei Kikan but that might be a label that only CP9 uses to begin with. I mean the Skypieans called observation Haki Mantra and right now in Wano Ryuo is pretty much what Rayleigh labeled armament Haki when he trained Luffy. So I take this to be a local/regional phenomenon.
Anyways, the point I'm trying to make here is that I think, whatever this body control skill is, it's more than just a Zoan thing. Actually I thought it was tied to Haki because it was it was shown a second time in Amazon Lily. That's where Haki has been all previous non-DF abilities have been re-introduced. We had Mantra in Skypiea and now the Boa sisters used it against Luffy to predict his incoming attacks. We had Garp actually hurting Luffy and Rayleigh touching Kizaru respectively Rayleighs sword being able to block a light sabre and then we had Kuja arrows that were imbued with Haki. Also there was the thing that Luffy and Hancock have the same highest form of Haki. Of course if everything we see before is tied to Haki one might expect that the hair/body control skill is also tied to Haki. But that leaves the question why Rayleigh hasn't explained it to Luffy and what's more, why hasn't it played a role ever since? Is it one thing that Oda has canned? Or will it be explored upon later like we expect it from awakening (which is a DF exclusive thing it seems).
One reason why I do believe we might see it at a later point though is because of the second Kuja skill we saw, that hasn't been elaborated on further. The elemantal skills. While Sandersonia was able to control her hair Mariegold was able to control fire. She might not be able to create fire herself as could be seen when she lit a match in chapter 520, page 10 but she could control the fire and didn't burn while being covered in it. One might say that the fire not hurting her is just one of the typical comic tropes where you have to ignore physical logic but on page 14 we see that Sandersonia actually starts getting burned by Mariegolds flames after the actually run into each other. A clear showing that Mariegold is able to not burn while Sandersonia does not have that skill. So each of them has a unique skill introduced before.
Remember that before Amazon Lily Sanji was actually on fire when he met fought Absalom as can be seen in chapter 463, pages 17 and 19. Back then I didn't think of this as much more than a special effect but we consider that nowadays Sanji pretty much can lit himself up on fire for Hells Memoires and Luffy using Red Hawk (also don't forget creating a road of fire when running to fight Ceasar in chapter 680, page 18-19) then I don't think of this as a special effect any but rather as an ability whatsoever. Plus there's Fossa who's lighting his sword on fire in chapter 554, page 12-13).
Why calling it an elemental ability then and not a fire ability? Well, while it's true that as far the Kuja and pre-timeskip is concerned we only see fire be used. Post-timeskip (and I'll dare to say even pre-timeskip) we saw another elemantal ability: Electro. I know that one might say that it's a Mink only ability that nobody else can pull off and it's their specific fighting skill like Fishman Karate is for the fishmen. And I honestly don't even want to deny that because it actually appears to be a valid assessment of the situation. But if you'll hear me out I'll try to give a connection as to why it could be something, I consider to be an elemental skill. Chapter 719, pages 14-15 when Luffy defeats Don Chinjao with an Elephant Gun his fist is covered in lightning. Now you can see that we see a lot of lighting when Conquerors Haki users clash and both of them are such users, so it might be that. Again, I'm not saying you might be wrong. As a matter of fact, that's the most likely scenario. Also Luffy doesn't label his attack differently from any other, non-lighting Elephant Gun so it really might be just the Haki clash. But unlike the anime the manga uses lightning sparingly and it really looked like Luffy covered his fist/arm in it, like he does cover his fist/arm in fire when doing Red Hawk. So I thought it could be a hint of yet another elemental attack. Especially since we have a character like Thunderlord McGuy who covers in lightning as can be seen in chapter 570, pages 06-07.
I might be grasping at straws here with Luffy and McGuy but at least we know that Electro is a thing. And all I'm saying is that if we consider the fire control skill elaborated on above then I at least wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of elemental abilities that are not logia powers. That and the idea that controling your body is not limited to Zoan users only. But if I'm honest, I actually am just hoping and waiting for Oda to elaborate on those skills instead of axing them. So yeah, sorry if I stole everyone's time.^^
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Yeah their is clearly other abilities in One Piece outside of "devil fruits" and "haki" but they don't get acknowledged much.
Just to give an example; "Hasshoken"used by the Chinjao family.
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I think that whatever Lucci and Kaku did is not a Zoan only trait, though it I do believe that is something that is most compatible with Zoan users.
Yeah, what I mean is that zoan users can find ways to better control their transformation. Chopper used medicine to do it, but eventually learned to do it without a Rumble Ball. Lucci used Seimei Kikan ("Life Returns" or "Biofeedback"), which is some sort of control over one's own biology. Kaku's way was left unexplained, but I guess it was related to Rokushiki (itself related to mastery of the body). It's interesting to note that Chopper was interested in seimei kikan during his fight with Kumadori and even says he had heard of it before, so his improved control post-timeskip may be related to seimei kikan's principles in some way.
Mari and Sonia's usage of haki (I assume) was a little different, I think, because they only used it to control their hair, rather than change their zoan forms, but I guess they could in theory develop partial or alternative transformations using the same method.
The point is not how one achieves this control, however, only that it's possible in more than one way, and advanced zoan users could find their own methods of mastering their forms.
As a comparison, Gear 4th is not just based solely on the Gomu Gomu No Mi, but a combination of its powers with haki.
As such, I expect Kaido to show some interesting uses of his zoan power, instead of just relying on brute force and the three basic forms.
I might be grasping at straws here with Luffy and McGuy but at least we know that Electro is a thing. And all I'm saying is that if we consider the fire control skill elaborated on above then I at least wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of elemental abilities that are not logia powers. That and the idea that controling your body is not limited to Zoan users only. But if I'm honest, I actually am just hoping and waiting for Oda to elaborate on those skills instead of axing them. So yeah, sorry if I stole everyone's time.^^
I like your way of thinking.
To me, "haki" is the essential power that fuels many of the quasi-supernatural martial skills we see in One Piece. However, most people learn only repeated, proven-and-true techniques without understanding the underlying principles behind them. I believe Rokushiki is based on haki, but focused in limited forms rather than the overall concept. Likewise, Luffy, Zoro and Sanji were using haki since the beginning, but in an instinctive way, because Haki is innate to everyone. So, when Luffy followed his "instinct" to find the real Mr. 3 in Little Garden, or when he was able to grab Kuro despite being unable to see him, we were seeing uses of Observation Haki in an innate level. Likewise, haki allowed Zoro to cut Mr. 1, or was the underlying power under Sanji's Diable Jambe, but neither of those characters were aware of it.
Rokushiki, likewise, seems to be specific uses of haki. Shigan and tekkai seems like armament haki techniques. Hankyaku, Geppou, "flying" Shigan and Rokuougan may be related to flowing armament in some way. Kami-e may be related to Observation. And Soru may also require some level of Observation, as Oda explained that Shakushi (Kuro's technique to move fast) and Soru were very alike, but Sory allowed the user to be aware of what was happening while he moved in great speeds. Maybe Rokushiki is a path of stepping stones that allow the awakening of haki.
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Yeah their is clearly other abilities in One Piece outside of "devil fruits" and "haki" but they don't get acknowledged much.
Just to give an example; "Hasshoken"used by the Chinjao family.
Like I said above, I think most martial-art skills may be "recipes" for using haki in established ways. Haki fuels them, but the user may not be aware of it, nor be able to use haki in other ways.
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Like I said above, I think most martial-art skills may be "recipes" for using haki in established ways. Haki fuels them, but the user may not be aware of it, nor be able to use haki in other ways.
I think they are their own thing that can be used in conjunction with "haki" just like "devil fruit" abilities are.
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Like I said above, I think most martial-art skills may be "recipes" for using haki in established ways. Haki fuels them, but the user may not be aware of it, nor be able to use haki in other ways.
That would be strange since all Minks are born with Electro with no exception. Even the children.
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That would be strange since all Minks are born with Electro with no exception. Even the children.
I’m talking about learned abilities, not race-related ones. A mink can use electro because it’s a mink power. But if we see a human doing electric-powered karate chops with no devil fruit behind it, it’s probably haki-related.
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Why would that be "haki" related; why can't it be it's own thing?
I seem to remember Koala can use "Fish-Man Karate". Must that be connected to "haki" too?
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Why would that be "haki" related; why can't it be it's own thing?
Because it would create an underlying consistency in the rules, while allowing diverse variations. Just because it’s based on haki wouldn’t mean anyone with haki could replicate it. It would still require knowledge and training. Haki is a talent tree rather than a simple linear level progression.
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Because it would create an underlying consistency in the rules, while allowing diverse variations. Just because it’s based on haki wouldn’t mean anyone with haki could replicate it. It would still require knowledge and training. Haki is a talent tree rather than a simple linear level progression.
What rules? Their is no rules that says "haki" must be behind every other ability.
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What rules? Their is no rules that says "haki" must be behind every other ability.
It’s a theory, not fact.
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It’s a theory, not fact.
Its a bad "theory" when "haki" has been clearly defined at this point.
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Its a bad "theory" when "haki" has been clearly defined at this point.
Haki has. All the other superhuman stuff that can be trained hasn't.
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Haki has. All the other superhuman stuff that can be trained hasn't.
Yes and those abilities are clearly different from "haki" even with the story not delving too deep into them. Their purpose is to spice the story up.
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I think that the fact we didn't see what Orochi's fruit was capable of at all, along with the non-so important but also there, fact that we know what the fruit looks like, really leads me to believe that we will recognize it instantly when(if)it respawns, and we'll get to see what its abilities are from its second user, most likely Yamato yeah.
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I'm holding onto my hopes of one of the BB pirates getting it or BB himself… At the very least it fits their theme more.
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It fits no one better than the guy called OROCHI. No one else will have that fruit if he really is dead.
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It fits no one better than the guy called OROCHI. No one else will have that fruit if he really is dead.
Or the other guy who you kno', ehem, the one whose name is also a reference to the mythical Yamata No Orochi!
I mean, I don't think we were exposed to the Axolotl devil turning a normal fruit into a devil fruit for nothing, its about time that plays a role in this saga.
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Yamato is not a reference to Yamata no Orochi. It's a reference to Japan. It's the oldest name recorded for the country of Japan. Kinda. It's more complicated than that, but it's the gist of it.
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Because it would create an underlying consistency in the rules, while allowing diverse variations. Just because it’s based on haki wouldn’t mean anyone with haki could replicate it. It would still require knowledge and training. Haki is a talent tree rather than a simple linear level progression.
I like your big post and I like that last line most of all.
As for that first bolded sentence I think it's already been proven true in the story itself. Haki is chi/ki/what ever the devil that many cultures have tapped into and cultivated in different ways.
There is no such thing as equal outcomes in all the world even if there are equal opportunities. Some cultures develop chi for healing, some for smashing stuff and some for God only knows what else. Just because one can use the iron shirt(real life technique exactly like Iron Body or just general hardening) does not mean they can break cinder blocks with their fists. The doctors who are able to heal and redirect the energies in the bodies more often than not have no knowledge or usable knowledge of how to apply it in a fight. It doesn't mean that inherently they can't but chi is incredibly vast.
Haki seems exactly the same way and I really like how Oda has done much of it so far. I think it's really amazing that cultures like the ones in Skypiea develop the Observation Color pretty much exclusively. I have no doubt Oda probably envisioned a culture that uses Color of Armaments exclusively. Then of course we've got Amazon Lily and now Wano who seem to take Armament to another level. That other level has snuck into east blue cultures due to Wano immigration and could potentially spread further due to Zoro's dojo.
I know one guy from Los Angeles who does the Iron Body and that ship is terrifying to watch in person. I knew a ton of people from all over the world who could break the bricks and cause no harm to their fists. I knew one guy from New Zealand who essentially does the Ryou or what ever the new internal destruction technique is. He learned it from a straight up Ninja! It's all chi/ki! But despite learning these really advanced techniques individually, none of them could do all 3! I could but I'm special… I can't...
The ki/chi is innate in all of them and the opportunity to learn and figure it out is available. Doesn't mean the outcomes will ever be the same nor should anyone expect them to. Applies to the One Piece world as well.
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Do you guys feel that Wano is giving more interesting variety in setting than in previous New World arcs like Dressrosa? Although it has all been apart of the same country, I definitely feel as if I’ve been to different places with how the arc has played out thus far.
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I think most arcs have had a nice variety in scenary - Dressrosa once again stood out negatively because all the cities looked exactly the same, the one nice change of scenary (Green Bit) was used not nearly enough and in the second half of the arc, everything turned to rubble anyway.
Oda has done a particularly good job with the Wano setting, though.
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I think most arcs have had a nice variety in scenary - Dressrosa once again stood out negatively because all the cities looked exactly the same, the one nice change of scenary (Green Bit) was used not nearly enough and in the second half of the arc, everything turned to rubble anyway.
Oda has done a particularly good job with the Wano setting, though.
I suppose it doesn’t help that even different settings like Green Bit likely weren’t fleshed out more, and that the repetitiveness is further made apparent and claustrophobic by Doflamingo putting a birdcage around the whole area. And as much as I feel that Oda went about it the best he could in how the arc ultimately paid off with a grand fleet which will surely come into important play latter, introducing as many characters as he did and switching back and forth so many times can feel quite alienating during times when you’re just starting to get to know a character. Still quite a number of good things about Dressrosa of course, though if anything, I’m glad Oda is improving more and more on grand scale New World arcs, with Wano’s case further by all the Japanese lore laid out underneath.
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So do we already have some final battles? Who is fighting who?
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So do we already have some final battles? Who is fighting who?
We're still full setup mode.
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Call me crazy but my money is on Luffy vs Kaido!
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Also, I think Zoro will definitely cut his opponent.
And Usopp will definitely fire something at whoever he faces.
At least one Straw Hat will fight a Beast Pirate.
Breathing will definitely happen during fights.
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Who's Who's Who's opponent?
Sorry, I had to do it
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I just realized something crazy. Imagine if instead of revealing himself to be Yamato the masked figure just told Luffy: I am Oden, and I'm here to kill Kaidou. That would have made this forum go insane with theories before the next chapter was released and we saw it was Kaidou's son impersonating as Oden.
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I just realized something crazy. Imagine if instead of revealing himself to be Yamato the masked figure just told Luffy: I am Oden, and I'm here to kill Kaidou. That would have made this forum go insane with theories before the next chapter was released and we saw it was Kaidou's son impersonating as Oden.
That would've been awesome! And then we could've spent the next chapter showing the other SHs and only at the end of the chapter reveal Yamato.
Teasing at it's best haha
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Still wondering how the battle phase will play out. With the CP9, they seemed invincible until it was displayed that a strong enough hit can break their tekkai technique. Here, many Beastmen pirates take unguarded hits and get injured only to get up later. Even if they get hit harder, how are we to believe they'll be down for the rest of the arc. Ulti went white eyed and bled only to get back up next chapter. These battles will either need the most violent finishers yet, or maybe they get tied up in seastone? If there's no innovation in combat here, then these battles are going to be some of the longest we've seen in what's already a lot arc.
Semi-related, whoever Nami fights could simply get frozen. She needs a new finisher besides lightning. Her skillset is too limited right now.
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Nami's been starving for a proper versus since forever, and Galette was ridiculously a really good match for her.
Why isn't she here with Perospero aaahhh!!
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Nami's been starving for a proper versus since forever, and Galette was ridiculously a really good match for her.
Why isn't she here with Perospero aaahhh!!
Big Mom's children will come for the battles, you can bet on it.
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Big Mom's children will come for the battles, you can bet on it.
Nah, they won't. Things are at full heat and Perospero just arrived now.
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Nah, they won't. Things are at full heat and Perospero just arrived now.
Full heat? Things barely started.
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Full heat? Things barely started.
We literally have the Sulong card pulled, Big Mom getting rammed, Big Bird attacking Sanji and Peach boy saved, plus all involved parties closing into the main room. It's a lot of chaos right now for barely started things.
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We literally have the Sulong card pulled, Big Mom getting rammed, Big Bird attacking Sanji and Peach boy saved, plus all involved parties closing into the main room. It's a lot of chaos right now for barely started things.
Sulong card was pulled at the start of the fight.
Big Mom being rammed was comedy.
Big Bird vs. Sanji is not a definitive fight.
We are still in the setup of the fights.
Things are going to get worse, much worse, for the heroes.
And then more BM children will appear to complicate things further. -
Things are going to get worse, much worse, for the heroes.
In your dreams it will, in your dreams.
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Nami vs Galette
Brook vs Amande
Franky vs Daifuku
Usopp vs Mont D'Or
Chopper vs CompoteThose are the match-ups I'm seeing right now with BM's other children, and I think it makes more sense for them to happen sooner rather than later. I don't know why they wouldn't be with Perospero if they're supposed to join the fight at Onigashima, but oh well, Oda works in mysterious ways. Maybe they're supposed to be a surprise to make a bad situation worse.
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Nami vs Galette
Brook vs Amande
Franky vs Daifuku
Usopp vs Mont D'Or
Chopper vs CompoteThose are the match-ups I'm seeing right now with BM's other children, and I think it makes more sense for them to happen sooner rather than later. I don't know why they wouldn't be with Perospero if they're supposed to join the fight at Onigashima, but oh well, Oda works in mysterious ways. Maybe they're supposed to be a surprise to make a bad situation worse.
Every other vs fits perfectly in my mind exept for Chopper and Compote, explain that one.
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It's basically a 'who else is gonna fight Compote' situation, since she was highlighted at one point. Because I think Robin and Jinbe are gonna get Sasaki and Black Maria. He could also team up with Carrot to fight Ulti and Page-one.
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Oh, yeah, Compote, she's a character that exists.
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@Johnny:
Oh, yeah, Compote, she's a character that exists.
That is how i felt about a lot of BM's kids.
Like outside the really established ones it is all a blur to me
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That is how i felt about a lot of BM's kids.
Like outside the really established ones it is all a blur to me
Well, most of them were only named via Vivre Cards and are most background extras, so that's one thing.
Compote was lumped in with Katakuri, Smoothie, Perospero and the like as BM's "monsters".
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Yeah, Compote is a weird case, she was cited as strong but we have never seen she do anything. We have no idea of her bounty (supposed to be high) or skills/powers.
Anyway, I don't expect the entire BM ship to reach Onigashima, but I think some of the main children will get up the Waterfall via powers when they learn of the situation above, while the others are left behind to get things organized before they try another climb up.
I think at the very least Smoothie, Daifuku, Gallete, Compote and Mont-D'or will appear in the battle.
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BM children surely will enter reach Onigashima by two reasons at least :
1. The appearance of Marco
2. Back up their Eldest Brother Perospero -
BM children surely will enter reach Onigashima by two reasons at least :
1. The appearance of Marco
2. Back up their Eldest Brother PerosperoEven tho, if we do change locations to Wano, they will be even more the reason why it should happen, since most people that enter Wano oftenly land up in Kuri first.
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Even tho, if we do change locations to Wano, they will be even more the reason why it should happen, since most people that enter Wano oftenly land up in Kuri first.
among BM Childrens, at least Mont D' Or can fly i guess. So with his scouting and ensure the rout is safe, surely they will ride the carps once again into Wano.
The question is, whether can they reach Big Mom on time or not?