Ranking of Luffy's attacks (offensive power).

[Malintex_Terek]

There's been some talk as of late over why Luffy doesn't just use his most powerful attack right when a battle starts; sure, he might have his own (dumb) reasons and Oda needs to make the battles cool, but what exactly would we call Luffy's most powerful attack, and at that, how can we rectify what goes in the middle?

Surely, up until recently, Gomu Gomu no Storm was the de facto head of all Luffy's moves, but the Gomu Gomu no Gigant Pistol and Gomu Gomu no Jet Gatling have sort of blurred which would truely be Luffy's most powerful attack.

I have class so…I'm hoping you lot will make propositions and we can work together to accomodate all facts to figure out the rankings of his moves. A full list can be found on the AP mainsite here, and before I leave, I should note I think Oda uses general rounding in attacks, id est, some attacks would be of equal strength to other ones and the differences in strength between upgrades would be constant.

That is, if Bazooka's damage is X, and Jet is a modifier of "2", Jet Bazooka does 2X. If Bullet is (X-1), Jet Bullet would be 2(X-1).

[Kaku. 0]

Well, it is hard to put his attacks in some order. And I think if he would use Cannon or somethin like Twin Rifle in Gear 2, that could hurt a lot.

[theinvisibleworm]

Luffy doesn't use his strongest attack right off the bat because doing so is stupid and arrogant.

Don't throw your ace unless you're forced to.

[_Bastard_]

He doesn't use his best attack because he needs to wear his opponents down (or find their weakness), otherwise the attack may fail. If that happened, where would that leave him?

[theinvisibleworm]

It would leave him with the opponent knowing his strongest attack and being capable of defending against it even more effectively the next time Luffy should try to use it.

Glad someone understands.

[Audity]

Jet Cannon or Gigant Bazooka would probably be the strongest he could do right now. I wonder how many moves he can do in giant mode besides standard/simple attacks with his limbs.

Jet Kane o_O

[igalsfy]

the weakest is obviously gomu gomu no buh

then i say from the weakest:

pistol
any stuff with his feet
tsuchi
kane
bazooka
gatling gun
cannon
storm

i know i still have a lot to class but that's it for now.

[Malintex_Terek]

@theinvisibleworm:

Luffy doesn't use his strongest attack right off the bat because doing so is stupid

I'm fighting a guy who weilds a sword and I have both a sword and a gun. Which weapon do you think I'm going to use first?

@theinvisibleworm:

…and arrogant.

Uh, no? How the heck is trying to defeat an opponent as quickly as possible arrogant? Seems intelligent to me.

@theinvisibleworm:

Don't throw your ace unless you're forced to.

Shounen logic/Oda wanting to prolong fights, which I already said. There's no extraneous strain in using a powerful attack so there's no reason Luffy shouldn't pull out a Rifle in every situation he uses Pistol.

[Tsuchirinhon]

There is no logical excuse, other than plot and storyboard mechanics. Changing such a formula would result in short, anticlimactic battles.

Luffy's most powerful attack, at the moment, is probably Gomu Gomu no Giant Pistol or Jet Gattling; both easily shattered Lucci's Tekkai. However, Gohn beleives that Gomu Gomu no Giant Pistol will hurt more if it actually connects, and Jet Gattling is more reliable and much easier to connect with. Depends on the opponent, basically. Giant Pistol is great for slow-moving targets, and Jet Gattling is for those people that just won't sit still.

[Shishou]

You have to beat on your opponent to rake up massive damage.

Then pull out your big gun to finish them off while they have the damage piled on.

Either way, Gear 3 anything is stronger than his other attacks outside Gear 3.

[NecRock]

Maybe the stronger moves are a tad more difficult to perform, are more exhausting or have other general deficiencies. IIRC, when we got the explanation of Gear 2nd, Lucchi said its use would shorten Luffy's life. The analogy with the sword or gun doesn't really say it all, in my opinion. A better analogy would be: if I had a gun and a cannon, would I use the gun which does relatively little damage, or the cannon which requires me to move and aim that enormous object?

[Monkey Spirit]

Otherwise you don't get the nice "Overkill" message and the extra exp! xD

Just kidding. I think we'd need a list of all of Luffy's attacks first and some details on the situations they were used in. Are we trying to make damage calculation formulas like the ones they use in rpgs? That could be fun.

[Rogultgot]

I really don't think Jet Gattling is an unbelievable "strong" attack. Sure, it can land a red-hot hundred number of hits onto multiple or a singular enemy, and it gets upped a notch for him doing it in Gear 2, but it's really just a bunch of Jet punches over and over. With other finishers (and other characters' finishers) it is a case of "drag on the fight to keep the viewer entertained before they pull the trick out of the bag", but with Luffy VS Rucci I think it was just that their fight had gone on for so long that
it "only" took a Jet Gattling to bring the Leopard down. Luffy had already pulled out his finishers, which Rucci survived (although not unscaved, that's a large point to stick out. Jet Gattling didn't do all the damage to take out Rucci, it was the tip of the iceburg he had rolling through Gears 2 and 3.)

That's just me, though.

[Rave]

Hello every one. I'm new here or rather i have register few months ago and i was reading this forum.
Yeah Jet Gatling isn't the strongest attack for sure…imagine that he will use GIANT JET GATLING... if luffy use Gomu Gomu no Muchi after gear 2 -it will be something like rankyaku xD lol of course joking about this attacks ^^

I think that arc after arc will show us more stronger Luffy's attacks- for 100% because he will be fighting with Blackbeard so gomu no jet gatling won't be too much to pwn him.
(ps . sorry for my english ^^)

[unchipu]

There's also the question on exactly how to quantify the gear powerups. It could be like how Terek said with G2 being 2X, and I guess G3 would be 3X? But if G2 is X^2, and G3 is X^3, that changes the whole spectrum of attack powers.

[Malintex_Terek]

@igalsfy:

the weakest is obviously gomu gomu no buh

I was a bit specific with the "offensive" techniques in the topic title, since there's no relationship between Luffy's gag/silly moves and something that does damage.

@igalsfy:

any stuff with his feet

This comment interests me; why do you say that?

@unchipu:

There's also the question on exactly how to quantify the gear powerups. It could be like how Terek said with G2 being 2X, and I guess G3 would be 3X? But if G2 is X^2, and G3 is X^3, that changes the whole spectrum of attack powers.

Gear 2 is known to just increase speed, but damage as well; Luffy's Jet Bazooka took out Blueno, a Tekkai specialist who was using his most powerful block. Granted, Blueno was a bit beat up when he was beaten, but that doesn't reduce Luffy's margin of victory by any means; heck, even the weak individual Jet Gatling punches hurt Lucci through Tekkai.

Gear 3 massively increases power (though how much is as of yet uncertain) with a huge decrease in speed. If I were to quantify this, G2 doubles Luffy's attack speed while increasing his strength by 1.5, while G3 triples his offensive strength while halving his speed.

[SecSeibzehn]

I doubt any of Luffy's attacks could one-shot-KO any of the major ( and I stress major ) villains he's fought since Arlong. First of all, they have to get hit by the attack first in order for them to get hurt– and during the Luffy versus Lucchi fight, Lucchi dodged Gatling by just bending back and through the punches as Luffy threw them. Of course it'd be unwise to try another move that takes longer to prepare which does more damage. IMHO, what you're saying (using the biggest gun early) actually did happen when Luffy used Gear 3, but as you can see, all it really did was injure Lucchi more-- something he could've done without Gear 3-- and put Luffy in a situation where, if Lucchi's legs didn't give out, then Luffy would have died.

It's also kind of about finesse. Luffy caught Lucchi by surprise with Jet Gatling, ensuring that it hit. Luffy punched through Crocodile's attack, ensuring that he connected Storm. Luffy's Rifle on Enel moved faster than Enel could dodge. Hell, Luffy even understood this concept when he KO'd Kuro with Bell back in the double-digit chapters-- if the enemy is still capable of his fast reaction time, is on point, etc. and can dodge your biggest weapon, then it's useless to use it. You have to wait until they're worn down or the situation is perfect to be able to use your finishing technique, or else the chance of it missing or the opponent countering it is much higher.

[dazze01]

How about GEAR 3+ GOMU GOMUNO VOLCANO? I think that will leave massive damage.

[Kibagami]

I think with the Gatling gun and Storm moves, the amount of damage basically depends on how long and how much the bad guy can take. It is a difficult move to use on an opponent that can dodge Luffy's punches easily, but once Luffy lands a few successful punches, all he has to do is continue punching like a Storm or a Gatling gun. In terms of damage, these moves are the most powerful (even more so with the JET version), but notice I call them "moves" as opposed to attacks because I dont consider them singular attacks for obvious reasons.

So in terms of the most powerful singular attacks, I wonder if he can puff up BOTH of his arms during Gear3 tho…. cuz if not, then Giant Rifle would be the Strongest attack.

[Vegetto2k2]

Iv actually made a offensive level system for Luffy's attacks.. Funny this was brought up.. Of course, this is merely my opinion, however, if anyone is interested PM me and ill send you a copy.. (Theres alot of attacks, also.. if you see Animation only attacks in there, just ignore them.. I just put them in there cuz.. well.. they were done.. lol, but yeah. Just PM if your interested).

[bennyb]

gummo gummo no baka, hands down

[apathetic]

My 1st posts…and my random thoughts
To start out his attacks have many variables the two basic are
Strength (X) and Speed (Y)

Then we need to make a statement about the type of attack primary where the attack orgintaes such as Lower body (L) or Upper body (U)
Then comes whether the attack is meant to be single target (ST) or area (AT)
In my opinion L attacks have greater damage but lower speed.
While single target promote X and Y ; area attacks only truly support 1 type X or Y

Examples
ST = Pistol = XY
At = whip = X (Y-1)

When it comes to jet it would only increase speed and keep x at a stable amount
So.
ST= jet pistol = x*(y+3)

And giant moves increase damage as well as lower speed

Ex.
ST = Giant Pistol =(x+4*(y-2)

Now when it comes to comparing old moves with the new ‘power up” versions.I believe giant will always be slower and stronger. Duh .however the gear moves make an interesting twist because all that’s added is speed.(in my opinion) so in essence

jet Gatling Gun is( a AT attack)= to storm (a massive AT)
I say the speed bonus added to jet makes it equal because storm seemed more like a stronger, more power behind it, move then Gatling Gun (that was more like rapid fire pistol. as well as ,more focused attack. )

not really complete but don't really care atm

[Paulie]

It seemed obvious to me, at least in Luffy's most recent fight, his biggest move (at least Jet Gattling) would wear him out completely, and if he didn't KO Lucci with it he would be screwed. Thus, he held it off until he had no other choice.

As for the most power, I'd say Gigant Pistol or such would rank the highest, followed by Jet Gattling and then Storm.

[l2agnarok]

here are my ratings of the techniques on power on a 1-10 scale

Pistol–-----******
Gatling Gun--*******
Bazooka-----**********
Rocket-------***
Missle--------******
Stamp--------****
Ono ----------********
Kane ---------*****
Storm --------**********
Cannon -------**********
Hook----------******
Flail-----------*******
Rifle----------********
Hanabi--------*********
Tsuchi -------*********
Twin Pistol----**********
Kazan --------*********
Kaiten Ono----*********
Muchi---------******

[Jonas22]

The official Arlong Park Luffy page (as Terek well knows) is here:

http://arlongpark.net/Characters/Luffy

Anyway, Terek, results from a discussion like this are exactly the kinds of 'cool' things that would be really nice (and in fact belong) on the ap.net page.

I don't know that you can put Luffy's attacks on a mathematic scale. The mathematic scales in One Piece seem a little distorted and don't follow any suitably simple growth functions that I know of (They aren't linear, exponential, geometric, polynomial or logarithmic). They seem to be "whatever", which is also the simplest explanation. (Gauge the relative weakness of Bellamy vs. Arlong, for instance, for disparities in the 'monetary' scale)

I still think a rough ranking of power can be interesting. If you think of Luffy's fist as a projectile, then it's power is a function of it's momentum (mass * velocity) and it's surface area. I'm not sure what exactly is better; there seems to be some kind of threshold where one switches over to another, and I guess it depends on what is being attack and what kind of damage is 'fatal' to it. Think of a sword vs. a mace, and then think of that sword vs. a battering ram.

Anyway, strictly speaking, air is not very massive, and that's what Luffy's adding to himself when he uses the bone Balloon attacks. 'Hardness' isn't going to add to the momentum of that attack, so if it's slower than the jet attacks, it's probably doing less damage. I doubt this is what Oda had in mind though, as the Gigant attacks seem incredibly devastating (just look at the ship). He might be finding a way to transfer liquids into his bone balloon, OR the explanation could be "it's a manga who cares." He's destroyed large structures with normal and gigant attacks, so that isn't really a basis.

There's also the problem that the CP9 agents were relatively contextless (except with respect to eachother). They were secretive, so there wasn't much information to compare them to other pirate groups we know, or even other government agents we know. The marines kinda stood out of their way (Lucci seemed to command respect universally, but who knows how strong he was compared to the admirals, say). We had the same problem with determining how Luffy grew after Skypeia, because Enel was such a free radical.

So uh, yeah, in conclusion, the move Luffy used to defeat Lucci is his most powerful yet. That's the way shonen works. Also, when a shonen author decides that some technique his character is using is too powerful to be used regularly, he makes it "dangerous" to use somehow; like, they'll use up their ki, or they can lose their soul, or it can get out of control and destroy australia, or something. Still neat, though.

Also, I thought this was funny:

@Apathetic:

not really complete but don't really care atm

[Malintex_Terek]

@Jonas22:

Anyway, strictly speaking, air is not very massive, and that's what Luffy's adding to himself when he uses the bone Balloon attacks. 'Hardness' isn't going to add to the momentum of that attack, so if it's slower than the jet attacks, it's probably doing less damage. I doubt this is what Oda had in mind though, as the Gigant attacks seem incredibly devastating (just look at the ship). He might be finding a way to transfer liquids into his bone balloon, OR the explanation could be "it's a manga who cares." He's destroyed large structures with normal and gigant attacks, so that isn't really a basis.

Ahh, we're to bring in some mathematical observations to this? Very well, but anyone who is versed in mathematics/physics please forgive me since I'm just being lazy/general here; Lucci standing in the mansion he was about twenty-two something feet tall; crouched, he's about eighteen. Looking at the final Gigant Pistol, 3 1/3 Luccis fit into the height of Luffy's fist at the lowest end (that is, the pinky); I'm guessing at the pinky it's about 60 feet in height. The width of the fist was double the height, so we could roughly call his fist a 120 x 60 square. Luffy's arm length is about 228 m and it's roughly conically shaped (too lazy to do FTC for weird cylinder…) so the total SA in box shape would be 48,240 ft^2 SA with a pyramidal volume of 547,200 ft^3 (15,500 m^3). Keep in mind this is an overestimation.

Carbon dioxide isn't that dense (1.98 kg/m³) especially when warm and compared to iron (7.86 x 10^3 kg/m³), so my value for the mass in KG of Luffy's Gigant Pistol is 30,690 kg. Normal bullet speed is 896 m/s, so I'm going to cut that value by a third (for no good reason) to get .598 km/s. Momentum would be 18,304.182 kg*km/s. In comparison, a train weighing in at 666 kg going 50 22.36 m/s would have a momentum of 14.892.5 kg * km/s.

So, yeah, I'm guessing Luffy's Gigant Pistol is really slow, since if the normal pistol is supposed to be bullet-speed, he's pumping major heat with that fist of his.

[Jonas22]

When you inhale you get mostly (77%? thereabouts) Nitrogen. Ditto for your exhale. Google tells me nitrogen is 1.2 kg/m^3, and it also tells me that the density of air (with all the other crap in it) is also around that.. so i guess the estimated weight for your freaky huge (volumetrically) luffy fist is more like 18,000kg, which is about 40,000 pounds or 20,000 tons. Assuming Lucci is 22 feet tall, of course ^__^

So essentially, if you take balloon the size of a cruise ship and swing it full tilt boogie at half a kilometre per second, its going to hurt what it hits. I suppose this isn't a surprising result.

Also, i thought it looked completely and totally wrong that CO2 is only 1/3rd the density of iron. You were off on that Iron quotation; you left off "x10^3"; Iron is 7874 kg/m3 (as per google)

I might come off as nitpicky, but I think your post was great.. in my quest to understand it I just came across some weirdness and felt i'd share.

Also, if people are wondering how a balloon could be massive, realize that air is constantly pushing down on us with quite a bit of pressure (1atm). Annecdotally, I worked on inflation teams for the macys thanksgiving parade balloons in NYC for 5 years, and although they were filled with helium and technically less dense than air (and also weighed about a hundred pounds when deflated), they would readily crush lamp posts even while going at very slow speeds. Just because something is not very dense does NOT mean it can't be very massive. (Another good example is Jupiter, the second most massive object in the solar system and has a density that is like, 1/4th the earths.)

It'd be interesting to do some analysis on the air pressure required to fill up his fist in, say, 2 seconds, through a hole the size of a finger. I'm pretty tired though. With his lungs, though, he could probably just blow on people for massive damage.

[Bounty1Berry]

@Shishou:

Either way, Gear 3 anything is stronger than his other attacks outside Gear 3.

I was suspicious… I mean, wouldn't it be the difference between being hit with a padded glove versus a bare fist? If all else was equal, I doubt his massive fist would do much more damage than a conventional fist. Maybe if the speed scales with it.

Interesting theory:

Gomu Gomu no Axe seems to appear against buildings (Arlong Park and the fin of the Baratie)... is it possible it's more suited to attacking a "hard" target than a body with give? Maybe it would do better against Tekkai than other moves?

[dlo62282]

You cant compare his attacks with balloons because balloons have a different tire.

A rubber ball is as hard as a rock. Think of his attacks as a gigantic rubber ball.

[Pirate King Goldroger]

my question is why gear attack start with gear 2 not gear 1 or mybe because gear 1 is too powerfull and luffy might die if he uses it like choppers ultimate form

[Malintex_Terek]

Thanks.

@Jonas22:

Also, i thought it looked completely and totally wrong that CO2 is only 1/3rd the density of iron. You were off on that Iron quotation; you left off "x10^3"; Iron is 7874 kg/m3 (as per google)

Oh, that's a horrible omission; not sure where the scientific notation went, sorry. >.>;

[Falcon]

@Pirate:

my question is why gear attack start with gear 2 not gear 1 or mybe because gear 1 is too powerfull and luffy might die if he uses it like choppers ultimate form

I assume Luffy considers himself to be in Gear 1 by default.

His weakest attacks are single attacks, the strongest are the ones that combine multiple weak attacks, gattling gun, storm, etc…

[Elastic_Swindler]

I don't think the gears can be analysed just with this. To figure the difference between the first and second gears, the only thing we have to go with are the two fights with CP9 members Luffy had. The source material leaves a lot of questions still… Dramatic techniques aside, the power increase Luffy gains from the second gear is nothing short of enormous. How much should the power gain from Lucci's transformation between his human and half-and-half shapes be measured as? Luffy's was even greater in scope: His normal, gearless hits didn't really cause any problems for the human form Lucci, who was more playing around than seriously going for the kill right from the start. When Luffy turned to second gear, Lucci felt the hits strongly even in his transformed state. How the hazard punch from Franky comes into this, that's a good question.

The Gigant moves of the third gear are again untouched by the lower gears. The only hits we've seen from the third gear either knocked the latest main villain out in one hit or destroyed a battleship large enough to carry a thousand marines. About the air in his bones, he didn't blow that much air in the arm when you look at it closely. After he started the initial bloating of his fist, it spreads out on its own during the Gigant Pistol attack. This is why I don't think the arm is filled with CO2, but becomes an actual giant's hand for the duration Luffy keeps the third gear active.

Much ambiguity remains in his traditional moves aswell. Which is stronger, Rifle or Bazooka or Axe, and why? If we only consider the order they were introduced in, Bazooka is the weakest and Rifle the strongest. But I find this to be an unsatisfying scale...

[Jonas22]

@dlo62282:

You cant compare his attacks with balloons because balloons have a different tire.

A rubber ball is as hard as a rock. Think of his attacks as a gigantic rubber ball.

A rubber ball is filled with rubber. His bone attacks (骨風船) are filled with air. (It says so in the name; 'hone fuusen' -> bone balloon)

Also, why is Rifle generally considered his strongest single attack? Is 'Cannon' not considered single, or is it just considered weak because he used it on weak opponents?

[Paulie]

@Jonas22:

A rubber ball is filled with rubber. His bone attacks (骨風船) are filled with air. (It says so in the name; 'hone fuusen' -> bone balloon)

Also, why is Rifle generally considered his strongest single attack? Is 'Cannon' not considered single, or is it just considered weak because he used it on weak opponents?

I dunno, filled tires seem like they'd hurt quite a bit.

And as for rifle, people might reach that idea because Oda seems to have this "if it twists it's a lot more powerful" notion, such as seen in rifle or some of Sanji's attacks.

[Falcon]

In his regular form Luffy was about at the same level as Blueno (who had 800 power level dukori or whatever it was) and in Gear 2 he could almost fight evenly with Lucci who had a level of 4000 as I recall. Of course, he had to soften Lucci up a little with his Gear 3 which is stronger, but slower.

[Tragic_johnson]

you know I never thought it was a matter of what attack he uses, but his emotions and mindset at the time. Doing the Gomu Gomu No Jet Gatling at any time in the Lucci fight would of been effective but not a knockout blow, but doing the attack when he did it, after what Usopp did sent Luffy into another mentality and at that time the attack was at its peak. so for me its Luffy's emotions that are the final blows in the fights, the mentality to put an end to his fights rather than the attack its self, i'm sure if Luffy was mad enough he could of ended many of his fights with a punch to the enemie's face. I've always maintained that Luffy doesn't have just a Gear 2 for his body, but he can go into a second gear in his mind set as well.

[igetownd]

@Malintex_Terek:

Shounen logic/Oda wanting to prolong fights, which I already said. There's no extraneous strain in using a powerful attack so there's no reason Luffy shouldn't pull out a Rifle in every situation he uses Pistol.

Another reason to use your strongest move last: energy conservation. I don't think Luffy is so naive about fighting that he'll blow off all his energy into one attack on one enemy. He'll surely win, but he'll risk being killed by later opponents. Your trump card should only be used in an open battle if you're sure that you be safe afterwards.

If Oda wanted to prolong fights, he can do so by adding more enemies and obstacles. It's not hard.

[Myoti]

There's no extraneous strain in using a powerful attack so there's no reason Luffy shouldn't pull out a Rifle in every situation he uses Pistol.

Until he got back into Gear 2nd, that's actually much of what he was doing. Of course, there's probably times it's better to be faster (Pistol) than stronger (Rifle), or possible a moment where he can just go from one quicker move to throw off the opponent into a stronger attack (in a way similar to the whole Octopus Fireworks -> Bazooka -> Rifle combo on Enel, though not exactly the example I'm looking for…).

[apathetic]

@igetownd:

Another reason to use your strongest move last: energy conservation. I don't think Luffy is so naive about fighting that he'll blow off all his energy into one attack on one enemy.

A swirling barrage of punches that far surpasses "Gatling Gun"

• Chapter 209, Vol. 23, [Sir Crocodile]
• Chapter 321, Vol. 34, [AoKiji]
• Chapter 378, Vol. 40, Episode 267, [Marines]

when i read that and remebered he used it while running around the lobby i thought so storms in the view point of that style of fighting,save energy for later, is no longer a hard move for him to do if luffy uses it on cannon fodder.or perhaps i think to much into it.

of course this may have been brought up when the chp came out.. some 50 chps ago

[Iwin Ulose]

@Tragic_johnson:

you know I never thought it was a matter of what attack he uses, but his emotions and mindset at the time. Doing the Gomu Gomu No Jet Gatling at any time in the Lucci fight would of been effective but not a knockout blow, but doing the attack when he did it, after what Usopp did sent Luffy into another mentality and at that time the attack was at its peak. so for me its Luffy's emotions that are the final blows in the fights, the mentality to put an end to his fights rather than the attack its self, i'm sure if Luffy was mad enough he could of ended many of his fights with a punch to the enemie's face. I've always maintained that Luffy doesn't have just a Gear 2 for his body, but he can go into a second gear in his mind set as well.

he DID end one fight with a single punch to the face. remember Bellamy? lmao… you can hardly count that though.

i very much like your point. it's all about his emotions and mentality.

oh and btw, i couldn't help but laugh when i read you guys get into hardcore mathematical analysis of the attacks of a shounen manga character. i think if Oda-sama ever read all that, he would die laughing. XD

[Silence]

@Falcon:

In his regular form Luffy was about at the same level as Blueno (who had 800 power level dukori or whatever it was) and in Gear 2 he could almost fight evenly with Lucci who had a level of 4000 as I recall. Of course, he had to soften Lucci up a little with his Gear 3 which is stronger, but slower.

I don't know… I find it hard to believe that Zoro and Sanji, who were fighting (rather evenly, aside from maybe slight disadvantages) people whose doriki were nearly three times as high as Blueno's, WHILE those people were in their Zoan forms which amplifies their physical abilities beyond their measured doriki (according to Jyabura)... and not until the very end used power ups of their very own... I find it hard to believe that Zoro and Sanji are that much stronger than Luffy at base.

Rereading the Luffy and Blueno fight, Blueno only hit Luffy once, and that was when spinning his face around. He didn't even hit him with the follow-up Rankyaku. Luffy kept up with Blueno's Soru for the whole fight - and he didn't seem to be going all out against Blueno - just trying to get used to his moves, and learn how to use Soru. He was disappointed that he wasn't overpowering him, probably because he knew that Lucci was much stronger. So he tried out Gear 2 and annihilated him.

While it's debatable how strong Luffy is, I seriously question Gear 1 Luffy not being able to take out Kaku or Jyabura. Yes: Gear 2 is an enormous leap... but Luffy being even with Blueno when Zoro and Sanji are more or less even with Kaku and Jyabura doesn't seem right at all.

[Malintex_Terek]

@Paulie:

And as for rifle, people might reach that idea because Oda seems to have this "if it twists it's a lot more powerful" notion, such as seen in rifle or some of Sanji's attacks.

It's a bit misleading when I said there's no situation for Luffy to favour Pistol over Rifle; Rifle is a better move because it's far more accurate due to the gyration of Luffy's arm. At distances, Luffy's attacks are far less accurate because he isn't able to see his opponents that well; the Rifle ensures, however, that a straight punch continues to be straight and prevents Luffy's fist from swaying to any direction or arcing down due to gravity.

@Falcon:

In his regular form Luffy was about at the same level as Blueno (who had 800 power level dukori or whatever it was) and in Gear 2 he could almost fight evenly with Lucci who had a level of 4000 as I recall. Of course, he had to soften Lucci up a little with his Gear 3 which is stronger, but slower.

I agree with the first part (Luffy depicted as equal to Blueno in his normal form), but I disagree with the second; if Lucci had 4000 douriki in his Beast-Man form, there wouldn't be any reason to use it because it's extremely large and therefore makes a better target. If you remember Lucci's Kami Bushin technique, it was done to reduce Lucci's mass while still preserving the majority of his power so he could keep up with Gear 2's speed; why would Lucci continue to bother using his Beast-Man form if it didn't offer any sort of improvements to his body?

I'm thinking Lucci has a huge increase in power for his normal Beast-Man form (6000 douriki) while a lesser amount in the Kami Bushin (5000 douriki) but still more than normal. Jyabura and Kaku's Beast-Man forms are not as large as Lucci's (I'm disregarding Kaku since naturally his animal is bigger) so I'm not sure if they would have the same amount of douriki bonus from using them. My guestimate of this bonus would be +1000 douriki for both of them, while +2000 for Lucci (so Kaku's douriki would be 3200 and Jyabs' 3180).

By this measurement, Lucci is still way more powerful that either Kaku or Jyabs in their Beast-Man forms, so it's consistent with Luffy having a tougher time against normal Lucci while Zoro and Sanji beat Jyabs/Kaku without too much trouble.

@Tragic_johnson:

you know I never thought it was a matter of what attack he uses, but his emotions and mindset at the time. Doing the Gomu Gomu No Jet Gatling at any time in the Lucci fight would of been effective but not a knockout blow, but doing the attack when he did it, after what Usopp did sent Luffy into another mentality and at that time the attack was at its peak. so for me its Luffy's emotions that are the final blows in the fights, the mentality to put an end to his fights rather than the attack its self, i'm sure if Luffy was mad enough he could of ended many of his fights with a punch to the enemie's face. I've always maintained that Luffy doesn't have just a Gear 2 for his body, but he can go into a second gear in his mind set as well.

That's still part of the shounen logic bit, though; when characters more angry, they apparently have a huge increase in power. In the real world, that's not true; people who play mad play dumb and are more prone to screwing up.

[Pirate King Goldroger]

well i think the most powerfull attack is in the movie 7 gum gum rotating hammer it cut through a metal catsle in half and when sanji and zorro stop him cause he could have cut the giant turtle in half too and the fight with crocodle then crocodle fly to the sky with one punch and through meter stone

[FireFistAce 0]

@Pirate:

well i think the most powerfull attack is in the movie 7 gum gum rotating hammer it cut through a metal catsle in half and when sanji and zorro stop him cause he could have cut the giant turtle in half too and the fight with crocodle then crocodle fly to the sky with one punch and through meter stone

Uh, Crocodile took about 2 dozen punches. Storm was not ONE punch. It was built up force that caused him to break through the bedrock. And as for getting knocked into the air, it was both in part Luffy's kick AND the fact that Crocodile was going to do one of his moves, requiring converting his body partly to sand and making it lighter.

And this is the manga forum, not the anime. Movie moves don't count.

[Kakaliaha]

Why doesn't Luffy uses his strongest attacks first? I don't know if you have ever watched any kind of "fighting sport" but typically the strongest attacks leave the attacker wide open for attacks. If a person is prepared for an attack it isn't going to be as effective. So typically you uses smaller attacks to distract/break through defense/make an opening, so you can use a strong attack effectively.

[_Bastard_]

@Malintex_Terek:

That's still part of the shounen logic bit, though; when characters more angry, they apparently have a huge increase in power. In the real world, that's not true; people who play mad play dumb and are more prone to screwing up.

I don't know if I completely agree with this. Not all people make stupid mistakes when they get angry. It depends on the person and the circumstances. I would type a much more elaborate post, but I'm at work

[kljs]

@Malintex_Terek:

That's still part of the shounen logic bit, though; when characters more angry, they apparently have a huge increase in power. In the real world, that's not true; people who play mad play dumb and are more prone to screwing up.

I can give you a small real world example….. believe it or not, it is for you to decide....

when I was in secondary school (in other countries, it's call middle school or something similar), I used to get angry. one of my friend noticed that my speech changed while I am angry. It seems that my speech becomes very fluent (although it is loud, but fluent) as compare to when I am not angry, my speech is always stopping/have gaps.

maybe that's not enough prove, but sometimes, anger in a small number of people do make them slightly above their normal self......

[Elastic_Swindler]

@Malintex_Terek:

I'm thinking Lucci has a huge increase in power for his normal Beast-Man form (6000 douriki) while a lesser amount in the Kami Bushin (5000 douriki) but still more than normal. Jyabura and Kaku's Beast-Man forms are not as large as Lucci's (I'm disregarding Kaku since naturally his animal is bigger) so I'm not sure if they would have the same amount of douriki bonus from using them. My guestimate of this bonus would be +1000 douriki for both of them, while +2000 for Lucci (so Kaku's douriki would be 3200 and Jyabs' 3180).

Very interesting estimates. Using your numbers as a base, I'll pull some up guesstimates too: Luffy is about 2500-3000 Douriki at 1st Gear, with 10000+ at 2nd Gear. My only suggestion is that Lucci's bonus from his DF transformation should be much more than +2000, at least doubling that. He was the one who claimed Zoan fruits have little limits to improvement, so I'd guess he had trained his to reach very high figures.

To get any sort of perspective in analysing Luffy's strength, and to find out what Douriki means, I'll have to go with a few things that could be considered off topic…

The only scene permitting cross-Douriki analysis is the moment when Franky got owned by Lucci. I think it's safe to say Franky was about equal with Fukurou, at 800 Douriki, or at least not a relevant distance away. Lucci, at 4000 Douriki, took his strongest attack with a basic Tekkai and then floored him with an unnamed punch. The difference between 800 and 4000 is 5x, so this kind of result should be expected. On top of this we have to consider that taking damage doesn't seem to be Franky's forte. There are several scenes that highlight his low pain treshold compared to for example Luffy, who can take virtually limitless physical abuse from blunt objects.

What about Kaku or Jabura? Could either of them give Lucci a good fight? How about Zoro or Sanji vs Lucci?

A simpler exchange to look into the meaning of a single Douriki would be switching Zoro's and Sanji's opponents, to get Zoro vs Jabura and Sanji vs Kaku. Can anyone claim Zoro would not have the easier time like this, of the two of them? (It's a natural reflection of the type of ranged skills Zoro can employ, while Sanji is still missing his version of Rankyaku.) The difference between Kaku and Jabura is much more than the mere twenty Douriki given through Fukurou's Teawase. I'm basing this supposition entirely on the fact that Sanji is a purely close-ranged fighter and still managed to win against Jabura, meaning the wolf-man wasn't a strategically sound fighter who could employ his Douriki efficiently. I think the Wanze fight gave a good amount of attention to Sanji's problems, namely his lack of ranged skills.

Luffy's fight against Blueno wasn't a traditional fight at all; Luffy was clearly playing around, just using his speed to see how he matches up against a speed specialist. He attempted to reach the ultimate end of his abilities at the first gear, and found out it wasn't enough to create a decisive victory against the likes of Blueno. Worse yet, after Blueno turned to his DF abilities, Luffy's hopes of a quick victory became even more muddled. It was clear that Luffy could finish Blueno off rather easily even without using the second gear, through using his more advanced first gear battle techniques in a fight uncomparable to either Crocodile or Enel -- But that wasn't the type of victory Luffy was aiming for.

However... While I want to claim that Luffy could beat either Kaku or Jabura without resorting to the second or third gears, it doesn't seem plausible examined against the introduction scenes of the CP9 fighting skills and the Strawhat pirates' fighting skill evolving scenes. This is counting the use of DF abilities to the fullest by both Kaku and Jabura. It's also counting the unstated canon claim that speed is the main forte of the CP9, not strength (=Douriki). At best it would become a close fight, good enough for a final fight in any previous arc. Using 2nd Gear it's no competition: I've estimated the difference (10k+ Douriki with 2nd Gear, 3k+ for Kaku and Jabura) at a step or two below the 5x of the Franky-Lucci difference, so I think it's not too weird to expect Luffy to drop either them within about a half a dozen attacks like the JET Pistol and the JET Bazooka, if not less.

If Luffy is that strong with the 2nd Gear, why did the fight with Lucci prolong so much? The answer to this lies in the amount of fatigue this technique generates in Luffy and the superhuman damage absorption of Lucci, which I think was the other reason why we received an otherwise simplistic narrative detail of Franky's best attack being shrugged off by Lucci like it was nothing. Lucci also used speed to his advantage: He jumped backwards to absorb the damage of the JET techniques, while still retaining his ability to charge forward instantly. No matter where he was, when receiving straight hits from Luffy's 2nd Gear he was always hit hard or even blown away, while not getting knocked out of the fight in a decisive way. This is in line with the less-than-1.5x difference in Douriki I assumed between them, if Luffy has something between 10k and 12k Douriki in 2nd Gear. Halfway through the fight Luffy's 2nd Gear lost most of its edge, also making the final parts of the fight uncomparable with the earlier scenes. In the end he overcomes Lucci with pure spirit.

Of course, the conclusions drawn from this pondering include that Zoro using Asura would defeat a gearless Luffy. Sanji with his red-leg kick should be right up there too. To give some perspective to 3rd Gear, I'd assume it was around 30k Douriki, meaning it would send Oimo or Kaashii flying in a one hit KO.

[Voodzik]

@Malintex_Terek:

I'm fighting a guy who weilds a sword and I have both a sword and a gun. Which weapon do you think I'm going to use first?

Neither. Because since you seem so stupid you can't even tell the difference between martial combat and firearm combat, you'd probably blow off your own ass and slice off your own nose before you figured out which end of the sword was pointy

@Malintex_Terek:

Uh, no? How the heck is trying to defeat an opponent as quickly as possible arrogant? Seems intelligent to me.

Yes, but if you whip out the best stuff at the beginning and it isn't enough, you won't have enough energy to make up for it later.

@Malintex_Terek:

Shounen logic/Oda wanting to prolong fights, which I already said. There's no extraneous strain in using a powerful attack so there's no reason Luffy shouldn't pull out a Rifle in every situation he uses Pistol.

Knock Knock. This is sanity. YOU'RE READING A MANGA!!!!!! A SHOUNEN MANGA! IT IS GOING TO FOLLOW SHOUNEN LOGIC!!!! ><