I wonder with is this with this laughing kids … some kind of ability ?
Chapter 927: The Courtesan's Kamuro
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Oda telling us that Orochi was a two-sword user was a missed opportunity, we could have had him fight with swords in all of his dragon-heads. TEN SWORD STYLE.
Maybe it's two swords in human form, ten in dragon form. Kinda like how things escalated with Kaku.
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Liking how Ussop is so chill after arriving to Wano, considering who they're up against.
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I think that girl has a laugh laugh df. I don't think the amount of laughter was normal lol, even that top courtesan Smiled
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@Miss:
I find it a little disturbing how calm and cocky the Strawhats are about Luffy being in prison. I know they're confident in him but damn, not even a shred of worry or doubt or wanting to go help him themselves. Have things gotten so formulaic that even the main cast knows they're unbeatable?
I would echo that sentiment if this part of the crew was involved in WCI and realized how perfect things had to go to escape. I think they would be a lot more worried if they realized how hard it was to escape BM. I kind of like that they said he will get out, it is a nice way of saying we are going to leave Luffy in the story and focus on everyone else. The rest of the crew will probably be the main focus for a long time in the story. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a major power up in our absence, possibly training with Kidd.
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The Strawhats not being too worried about Luffy's imprisonment doesn't bother me at all. It's not like they can do anything about his situation at the moment, so the best they could do is carry on with accomplishing their respective tasks so they could muster the forces they need for the Fire Festival. I think this is one of those times that fans are just overly nitpicking and this attitude is getting quite annoying considering we're not even midway through the arc. Did Skypeia ever receive such criticism? Zoro was roleplaying Tarzan, Luffy was singing while exploring the forests, the Strawhats had a freakin' campfire within the Upper Yard, etc.
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On a more serious note, I can't quite come to terms with how uneventful Sanji's return has been. With everything that happened in Totland, the way he left, the Sunny in tatters, everyone going through hell and back again to retrieve him, Jinbei and the Sun Pirates could be dead as far as the Strawhats know…I can't help but feel there should have been more outbreaks of joy, and more tension too. A clash with Zoro, most likely, although these two haven't met yet so it's too early to rule that out.
It really consolidates WCI as a "meh" arc in my book :/This is another symptom of the main disease: too many damn characters hogging the screen. Which means there's no time to breathe, no time for more natural interactions and developments. Of course there's no time for them to reunite with Sanji because HURRY HURRY we gotta introduce new yakuza nobodies, little girl companion #44, and beautiful perfect whore. All characters that will arguably stop being relevant in about 15 chapters.
I wish Oda would stop sacrificing main character development for flashy new distractions.You also brought up a good point I had completely forgotten about. Why the hell are none of them worried about Jinbe? Do they know if he's even still alive? Do they care? lol
The Strawhats not being too worried about Luffy's imprisonment doesn't bother me at all. It's not like they can do anything about his situation at the moment, so the best they could do is carry on with accomplishing their respective tasks so they could muster the forces they need for the Fire Festival. I think this is one of those times that fans are just overly nitpicking and this attitude is getting quite annoying considering we're not even midway through the arc. Did Skypeia ever receive such criticism? Zoro was roleplaying Tarzan, Luffy was singing while exploring the forests, the Strawhats had a freakin' campfire within the Upper Yard, etc.
Their captain wasn't being imprisoned and tortured by a Yonko during Skypiea, so I'm not really seeing the comparison here. What would happen if Kaido suddenly decided to change his mind and just kill Luffy outright instead of holding him in jail. Whoops, there goes our captain while we sat on our asses and did nothing.
You're probably right that this is nitpicky, but it's not baseless. And it's definitely inconsistent with characterization. Again, I know they're confident in Luffy and they should be, but it's still extremely dumb of them. -
Jinbe is the same type of deal, they have confidence that he'll return. They had a whole scene over said confidence. Are we really going to say that they don't care about him now just because they don't spend every other chapter worrying about him…
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It's just a funny observation I had that between the tiger near the crotch, the half horse and now the hippo I don't think any of the headliners have had a consensual sexual partner for some time(they are barbaric pirates they can probably force people into it). And I keep waiting to see if any of the new smile is not a plague on the sex life.
I actually think Dobon the hippo guy could have a pretty good sex life, he's got a private chamber inside that mouth and everything :P
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I hadn't thought about it before now, but I realized how little I'm actually invested in the "Liberate Wano" part of the Wano arc. I've just been invested in Luffy/Strawhats vs. Kaido/Crew for the sake of Luffy taking down a yonkou.
I think it must be because I still haven't ever grown attached to or started caring about Momonosuke or Kinemon, even after all they've been in post timeskip. I still don't care about them, nor do I care about any of the other random samurai yet, nor any regular Wano citizens, so I really don't even care about Orochi getting overthrown yet. Tama almost got me there, but her bonding time with Luffy got cut short so fast I'm not quite there yet.
This is really weird to me, cause I always cared about the "save the people" part of every previous arc. Did I miss the part that was supposed to make me like Momonosuke?
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My god, I love Robin so much in this! :wub:
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Is the third time we've had a "most beautiful woman in the land" character?
Not a fan of this chapter. All of the crew's interactions felt pretty generic to me (Well, Sanji shoving food into a guy's mouth was alright), Toko's joke wasn't that funny either.
I thought that whole interaction with Toko felt off somewhat. It feels like the kind of thing that Oda does with the animation in mind.
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could be the 3 super samurais of kinemon( ashura douji and the other two) fight the 3 calamities while ALL supernovas take on kaidou to mirror BB pirates and marines vs yonkou WB. That makes sense if kaidou can 1 shot guys like luffy, and would be more impressive then luffy getting some last minute power up to get him on kaidou's level. Zoro would still get to slay dragon shogun, like ryuuma, and not be overshadowed by luffy soloing bigger dragon.
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This chapter did not move this story forward in any considerable way. It is also one of the shortest I've ever read. To top it off, there is a break next week. Is the writer going through a rough patch?
There are other points I must mention. Firstly, why are the strawhats so elated at seeing Sanji? If they've heard the story of his misadventure, his cowardly acts of abandoning his crew to live a happily married life with a princess, they should be questioning whether he has the character to be a strawhat. His lewdness towards women after that incidence should give some pause since he hasn't changed at all. Oda might yet be setting this character flaw up as a moment of conflict through a betrayal that might be terrible for the strawhats. Sanji might turn out to be the Judas of this group. They always turn up in every story. Secondly, why, when trying to operate covertly, would they choose to beat up some goons when they could have just paid them off? What was the reason for the skirmish? It was absolutely unnecessary. Thirdly, what's with all these unnecessary characters cropping up and taking up unnecessary space? Why didn't we get a hint of Zoro or whatever the other members are up to as they prepare for 2 weeks? Fourthly like someone mentioned, why is an unproven character whose main crew was easily fodderized ala Law dismembering Kinemon going seemingly alone to rescue Luffy? Just strange. Fifthly, the Wano prison seems to me to be just dumb. Where is the breaking of will happening? Prisoners given so much chow they growing fat? If they can carry so many huge boulders of rock and beat up the chief jailer why don't they just try to escape? What is the threat keeping the prisoners in there? Who do the strawhats have to face to break Luffy out? These strawhats lack leadership totally. It seems to them their captain is on a holiday (which seems true given his prison situation) and all will just be fine.
Breaks every 2 and a half chapter; chapter that don't move the story forward etc, brace up people, we're gonna be reading this till 2033.
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This chapter did not move this story forward in any considerable way.
It's called letting the story breathe. You can't have incredible story beats every single chapter, you need these quieter chapters inbetween to slowly set up the next big moments in the story. And it did move the story forward: it gave spotlight to some of the Strawhats that we hadn't seen in years and showed them reuniting with Sanji, it introduced several new characters who may very well turn out to be quite important for the rest of the arc, it set up conflict between the Strawhats Kyoshiro's/Kaido's men, and it set up the next big set piece, the shogun's banquet. Oda manages to do a lot in one chapter, even if you may not notice it at first.
It is also one of the shortest I've ever read. To top it off, there is a break next week. Is the writer going through a rough patch?
There were plenty of chapters before that were shorter, especially during the Marineford War. And yes, Oda has been taking a break every 3-5 weeks because he was getting sick before due to not taking good care of his health. Let the man take some rest once in a while, yes? It's pretty rude to suggest he is going through a rough patch just because there was one chapter that was a bit more slow-paced. Like, did you forget all the crazy shit that happened in the last couple of chapters already? Kaido making an epic appearance in dragon form and him swiftly defeating Luffy with one strike ring a bell? No? How about Blackbeard's recent reappearance then?
There are other points I must mention. Firstly, why are the strawhats so elated at seeing Sanji? If they've heard the story of his misadventure, his cowardly acts of abandoning his crew to live a happily married life with a princess, they should be questioning whether he has the character to be a strawhat. His lewdness towards women after that incidence should give some pause since he hasn't changed at all. Oda might yet be setting this character flaw up as a moment of conflict through a betrayal that might be terrible for the strawhats. Sanji might turn out to be the Judas of this group. They always turn up in every story.
First of all, that is not at all what happened. Sanji didn't cowardly abandon his crew to live happily forever, he was forced into a marriage with the threat of everybody he loved being murdered if he didn't give in and saw no other way out then to leave the crew and sacrifice himself. Maybe he should have had more trust in Luffy, but nothing about his actions was cowardly or selfish. Secondly, you don't seem to get the crew's relationship at all. First and foremost, they were worried about his safety and are of course glad that he is ok and back with the crew. And who are they to judge anyway if he is Strawhat material? Usopp and Robin both left the crew in the past, too, Robin's situation being particularly similar to Sanjis. Sanji is their friend - it would be incredibly obnoxious of them to deny their friendship to him now. I'm sure Zoro, who was the only one in the past to object to Sanji's actions, will have something to say to him once they meet, but I see no reason why the other Strawhats should be angry at him. Plus, Sanji's lewdness towards women may not be a likable character trait, but what does it have to do with anything? Sanji didn't abandon the crew to be with a beautiful woman - that was never his motivation.
Secondly, why, when trying to operate covertly, would they choose to beat up some goons when they could have just paid them off? What was the reason for the skirmish? It was absolutely unnecessary.
Why did Luffy need to punch out that asshole Tenryuubito at Sabaody? Why did Sanji feel the need to feed Don Krieg and his starving crew knowing they would afterwards proceed to attack his home? The Strawhats don't always act logically…it has kind of been part of their charm in the past, so I don't get why some readers are now suddenly getting upset about it. The goons wasted food - Sanji absolutely hates it when people do that due to personal reasons (remember his backstory, him almost starving to death as a kid?). He didn't need anymore reason.
Thirdly, what's with all these unnecessary characters cropping up and taking up unnecessary space? Why didn't we get a hint of Zoro or whatever the other members are up to as they prepare for 2 weeks?
Because Oda decided to introduce these characters now. It's his freaking story and you have no idea where he wants to take it. Who says these characters are unnecessary?
Fourthly like someone mentioned, why is an unproven character whose main crew was easily fodderized ala Law dismembering Kinemon going seemingly alone to rescue Luffy? Just strange.
We don't if he is going alone. And what has Law 'fodderizing' (ugh) Kinemon to do with anything? Raizou is a ninja - seems like a good choice for breaking someone out of a prison.
Fifthly, the Wano prison seems to me to be just dumb. Where is the breaking of will happening? Prisoners given so much chow they growing fat? If they can carry so many huge boulders of rock and beat up the chief jailer why don't they just try to escape? What is the threat keeping the prisoners in there? Who do the strawhats have to face to break Luffy out? These strawhats lack leadership totally. It seems to them their captain is on a holiday (which seems true given his prison situation) and all will just be fine.
Luffy's (and Kidd's) will isn't easily broken, what a surprise. Obviously most prisoners aren't as freakishly strong and are more or less starving. And we have only had like half a chapter taking place at the prison yet, that's why we don't have much insight into their security measures yet. I'm pretty sure Queen will be more of a threat.
Breaks every 2 and a half chapter; chapter that don't move the story forward etc, brace up people, we're gonna be reading this till 2033.
Again, maybe you should reread the last few chapters to see how much has already happened this arc and relax a bit. It's pretty silly to complain like that because of one chapter that was a bit more slow-paced, a bit more easygoing (which, frankly, was a nice change of pace imo).
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What a set of chapters these have been. Although not commenting much on a weekly basis, mostly because I felt compelled to go back to Zou after the time travel reveal, love the small details thrown around. This will not be short, because of that I will separate it in sections, this arc is setting up to be extremely fun.
Law’s involvement with taking down Kaido: (A conversation with Daz)
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@Daz:But at Punk Hazard, the framing and storytelling choices explicitly suggested that Law was serious about Kaidou. The plan supported this, and throghout a good portion of Dressrosa, Law was still pushing for the Kaido plot over targeting Doflamingo…until suddenly, the Kaido plot didn't matter, andrevenge against Doflamingo was the only thing that ever mattered.
Like they say: to tell a good lie, mix some truth behind it. During Punk Hazard, Law did not know the depth of Luffy’s character and his tendencies. Law never imagined that Luffy would have completely agreed to help him take down Mango had he simply asked. Therefore, he needed a way to gain the Straw Hats assistance, and simply taking out a warlord would not be enticing. Therefore, Kaido. By painting the emperor as the end goal, it is more likely that the Straw Hats will help.
Why is it weird that Kaido stops mattering during the middle of Dressrosa when Law starts reminiscing about his past and his desire for revenge? It stopped mattering to Luffy when he told Law that they could worry about Kaido after they had dealt with Mango.
And then, suddenly, Kaido apparently does matter. Its wonky in the sense that Laws motivation and ultimate goal are in flux; once Doflamingo is beaten, theres no recontextualization or exploration of why he wants to take doen Kaido, still – Law just snaps back to it as a default mode because the plot requires it.
I assume that Kaido does matter is after Mango has been defeated. The recontexualition had been occurring throughout the arc and at the end. The alliance defeated Mango, the entire reason they wanted to avoid that was for Kaido and Joker to fight against each other. By taking him down, they have directly gone against Kaido’s operations, and made themselves the target of his anger.
Law snaps back into it, because what alternative does he have? He has beens stripped of his warlord status, not that the government would have helped him either way. Law could not even defeat Mango, if he ups and leaves, what chances does he have of surviving? No allies and in the New World, his best chances are to stick with the alliance he had started.
So on the one hand you’re saying Law wants to leave Doflamingo be, due to a rational assessment of the situation, but on the other hand, he’s itching such bloodlust at fighting Doflamingo? This is the disconnect that I’m talking about, and the switch between them is never dramatized. Instead, when Law confronts Doflamingo for the final time he talks of how his lifes goal was be here and pull the trigger that Corazon couldn’t (twice, even), as if he wasn’t pushing for the elaborate Kaido scheme five minutes ago.
But you are not using the build up throughout the arc to transition from one to the other. It makes sense that Law wants to leave Mango alone because he had been defeated and his entire plan had failed. Law did not anticipate Mango being a Celestial Dragon and to have the capacity to manipulate the news in such a way. We could also guess he did not believe Luffy could handle the task. That does not mean Law does not want to take revenge himself.
After Law has been defeated and shot, his plan is in shambles(wink), it makes sense for his character to try and stick to the plan. He even voices his concern for Kaido if they were to defeat him. That is when Luffy tells him: Get serious, we can worry about that later let’s deal with this.
After Luffy tells him that, and is dragging him towards the final fight, Law remembers Corazon more deeply and given that the plan has been forfeit (the one that Kaido handles Mango), he can be true to himself and his desire for revenge.
Doflamingos defeat can’t both be Laws secret endgoal, and some spur-of-the-moment act of passion.
It is not a spur of the moment thing, but definitely passionate.
But its still building off the exact masterplan Law presented at Punk Hazard, and Law is still fussing over Luffy, and trying to keep him in line.
As I mentioned, the plan in Punk Hazard had to mix truths with lies so Luffy would be more accepting of joining an alliance. Law tries to keep him in line after Mango outwitted him with his plans and defeated Law in combat.
Theres no dramatization of Law feeling indebted to Luffy or being a mardedly changed man, It’s the same dynamic as before, with Dressrosa as some weird blip inbetween arcs where Law accomplishing his actual, lifelong objective that had nothing to do with Kaido.
Simply put, the manga has never established why Law still gives a shit about this whole Kaido plot.
I think it has, Law knows that in the New World it is either join an emperor or fight them. Once his lifelong goal has been completed, he understands the repercussions and is left with no option but to commit to the original plan to take down Kaido, because the creature itself is coming to hunt them down.
Again, I think the part issue here is that the Law/Doflamingo dynamic was being written into the story very late. Consider this:
Law visits Doflamingos auction house at Sabaody. Disco reports this to Doflamingo. And there is absolutely zero indication that Law or Doflamingo have any sort of connection. No reaction from Doflamingo at hearing Law was there, no disapproving scowl from Law at the auction house (well, he had another personality back then, to be fair).There is no reason for Disco to report about Law because the latter did nothing. The report was done before Law confronted the marines and after Luffy punches Charloss. Law literally just sat there.
And it’s the same deal with the war. Law- who has what Doflamingo desires more than anything in the whole world- shows up at Marineford. Again, there is no indication that the characters know each other. Doflamingo just laughs at Luffys escape – not that Law helps him.
I went back and did a quick re-read(took me months to answer back: “quick”) Punk Hazard, Dressrosa, Sabaody and the War. When Law shows up nor when Luffy escapes is Mango reacting to those events. At that time: Whitebeard and Ace had just died, Blackbeard stole Whitebeard’s fruit and was going on a rampage and Shanks made his appearance.
If we consider the size of the battlefield, I think Mango was in the middle of the chaos, while Law was on the edge. There is no reaction from Mango about Luffy’s escape.
Unless you are mentioning these two instances as ways where Oda could have enriched Law’s and Mango’s connection and story, which I would agree with.[/hide]
These are the images I am basing my thoughts on. It is also fun to look back and add an extra depth to some lines with the time travel revelation brought in. I wonder what the official translation went with too.
Zou recap, Oden’s past, Toki’s decisions and the Minks history with the Kozuki:
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This turned out to be 20 years! That is some loyalty.
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The alliance between the Minks and the Samurai has been going for 1000 years. The Minks have lived in Zou for that long as well.
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Cat and Dog have been at each other throats for the past 20 years, they must feel quite responsible about Oden’s demise. Were they used against Oden and his plight about opening Wano’s borders.
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Will Oda make Oden a pervert?
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I am looking forward to this panel in Oden’s flashback
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In Zou we learned that Oden was boiled alive. This was the event were Cat and Dog almost died.
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Did Orochi usurp the throne from Oden’s father? Or was Oden’s father still the shogun during this time?[hide][/hide]
Oden came back to Wano to open its borders after traveling with Roger.
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Toki’s final moments part 1.[hide][/hide]
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I think Momo’s age should have been a clear indicator that something was off about the whens and hows. That with Cat and Dog having traveled with Roger and that the event they came back from almost dead was after a long voyage.
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The traitor. Could it be one of the scabbards? If so, which one?
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A young Cat and Dog are stranded on Wano, and it seems Oden had not met them before. Were they the Kings of Zou back then as well, or rulers to be? Were they even aware of the alliance?
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Orochi confabulated with Kaido to kill Oden 20 years ago. The previous Shogun was Oden’s father. Orochi painted Oden as a criminal and got to him through the Wano’s law system. Could he have manipulated Oden’s father to sentence his own son to death?
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Toki’s final moments part 2. She sent Kinemon, Raizou, Kanjuro and Kiku to the future. Leaving the samurai with the hat behind along with Hiyori. I also believe that after he left Hiyori on the care of the last retainer, I wonder if Toki allowed to be burned alive or she traveled to “the end of time” to get rid of her fruit. I wonder what are the limitation on her fruit, we know that she at least has traveled 800 years from the void century.
[/hide]The 9 scabbards:
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We have met 7 out of the 9. Kinemon, Kanjuro, Raizou, Cat, Dog, Kiku, and Ashura Doji/Shutenmaru
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5 of them.
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5 again but two are different.
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Missing Kawamatsu and Denjiro.
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Shutenmaru escaped, but the other samurai might have been captured. I like the idea of having been presented with different outcomes for the retainers. One is waiting with hope. The other abandoned it and went back to his old ways. And lastly, the other kept fighting and they have been trying to break his spirit for the past 20 years.[hide][/hide]
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Potential candidates are Hitetsu and Fishbone prisoner.
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This guy would be a wildcard, he could be the traitor that informed the beast pirates of Zou’s location. But I am more inclined on the first two. Although Hitetsu meeting Inurayashi already and having no form of recognition puts a dent in Hitetsu being one of the samurai.[/hide]Luffy vs Kaido. Kaido’s club’s, seastone upgrade:
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The small confrontation told me everything I needed to know about Luffy’s chances. The fact that he sobered Kaido up and he managed that conqueror’s blast makes me think he is not that far away to be able to keep standing against these blows.[hide][/hide]
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It is very likely that Kaido’s club is made of seastone. This gives us two options. Kaido is a dragon that can transform into a human without the aid of a fruit. Or he is a fruit user and has managed to build a resistance towards seastone. Which, considering Kaido’s character, I would not be surprised if it was intentional, so he could get a better fight. That is why he is so durable, he was always fighting with a handicap.The latter is reinforced with Luffy’s and Kid’s training montage.
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Kaido’s first mistake. By excluding the word pirate from the news, everyone in the country can relate to samurai Luffytaro trying to feed the ones in need and will only encourage the rebellion.I am looking forward to the Straw Hats getting seastone weapon upgrades. Franky getting seastone knuckles would be amazing. Usopp some special bullets is an easy go to. Can Chopper get a club?
[/hide]Reverie, Blackbeard and invisible Shybum:
[hide]Mihawk talking about the abolition of the warlord system. I am interested in seeing if he will go with Shanks like many predicted or will he remain the same lone wolf type.[hide][/hide]
Oda don’t do this to me, I always felt Blackbeard coming at the end of Wano made sense. There is a lot to gain from it, but with everything Oda built up to this point. Kaido, Big Mom, Luffy, Blackbeard has multiple fruits he could acquire if he were to exploit this moment. Not to mention the rich history the country has in regards to the void century.Shybum getting the invisibility fruit is a mega plus, I argued that him getting the diamond fruit was not set in stone, even though my prediction (phoenix) was wrong, I do not care. These twists are great.
I also wonder if Oda will play with Blackbeard genetics and will modify some of the Blackbeard’s pirates genes so they can also acquire two fruits.
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Shutenmaru’s critic, Komurasaki = Hiyori:
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I imagine Lady Toki would know about this considering she has travelled through time a lot. So my intuition tells me he let Hiyori live through the 20 years to show that the Kozuki never abandoned them in the first place. I imagine Momo will win Shutenmaru over, but I think the fact that Hiyori would have lived all these years while he went back to being a bandit will help in him become an ally.If Komurasaki is Hiyori, it could also explain why Toko is always laughing. Komurasaki has taught her to always laugh regardless of the hardships. In terms of Shutenmaru’s critic, Orochi seems to have been wanting to get Komurasaki for a while. Which would strengthen the idea that the Kozuki did not abandon them, but endured the hardships.[/hide]
Momo, Tama and the Maturing fruit.:
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With the appearance of Shinobu the possibility of a character being matured increases.[hide][/hide]
Tama’s character arc is very interesting. One thing is certain, the relationship with Luffy will have to be different in some way or form. I cannot imagine that she simply jumps from waiting for Ace to waiting for Luffy. Or at least, I hope not.[hide][/hide]
For now, she is on route to meeting Shinobu and Raizou (potentially asking to help in the prison breakout) with Dog saving her. Let’s see what is her reaction to meeting them and having the opportunity of becoming a ninja under them.[/hide]Random thoughts:
[hide]How important is grandpa Hyou?
Caribou is still in prison and it does not seem he has spilled the beans about Poseidon. So the question remains, whom does he want to inform about the ancient weapon? I still think Blackbeard.[/hide]This was super long, One Piece is great!
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@Miss:
Their captain wasn't being imprisoned and tortured by a Yonko during Skypiea, so I'm not really seeing the comparison here. What would happen if Kaido suddenly decided to change his mind and just kill Luffy outright instead of holding him in jail. Whoops, there goes our captain while we sat on our asses and did nothing.
You're probably right that this is nitpicky, but it's not baseless. And it's definitely inconsistent with characterization. Again, I know they're confident in Luffy and they should be, but it's still extremely dumb of them.The crew were separated early on in the arc, with four of the crew on the ship being carried towards the Upper Yard by a gigantic shrimp. Sanji even makes a perverted joke about why was Nami wearing a shirt instead of worrying about her. Shortly after Pagaya tells the remaining three - Sanji, Luffy and Usopp - that the ship is going to the sacrificial altar and that the four other Strawhats will be held hostage by God himself. The three then went to Lovely Street and saw firsthand how powerful and deadly Enel's judgment is before going on a goofy boat ride through Upper Yard prior to facing Satori.
As far as characterization goes, it's been pretty damn consistent.
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@K.:
Potential candidates are Hitetsu and Fishbone prisoner.
I would say that one of the Scabbards has already been shown to us. Last chapter talks of Kamazou the Manslayer, whose appearance very clearly resembles one of the samurai Kin'emon mentioned.
The other one, the "Witching Hour Boy", is likely the final retainer due to being introduced immediately after Kamazou, but the panel makes it hard to tell if it matches the silhouette with the hat, so I'll hold off on that for now, especially due to the possibility that the final retainer has Hiyori with him which muddies everything.
Like you, I'm also skeptical of it being Hitetsu. Technically we have not actually seen him meet Kin'emon, Inuarashi, etc. as of yet, but yea, you'd think he give some kind of hint if he really was a retainer.
[hide]https://i3.mangareader.net/one-piece/919/one-piece-11373769.jpg[/hide]
This guy would be a wildcard, he could be the traitor that informed the beast pirates of Zou’s location. But I am more inclined on the first two. Although Hitetsu meeting Inurayashi already and having no form of recognition puts a dent in Hitetsu being one of the samurai.
I'm confident that the traitor has to be someone that was on Zou. It is highly suggested, if not essentially foreshadowed, that the Beast Pirates are only able to find Zou to having someone's Vivre Card. As such, that only works if the traitor was there at the time. Additionally, it would also explain how they knew that Raizou was specifically there, as opposed to telling the Beast Pirates that samurai were there in a general sense. As such, this would pretty much disqualify all of the samurai as being potential suspects.
I imagine Lady Toki would know about this considering she has travelled through time a lot. So my intuition tells me he let Hiyori live through the 20 years to show that the Kozuki never abandoned them in the first place. I imagine Momo will win Shutenmaru over, but I think the fact that Hiyori would have lived all these years while he went back to being a bandit will help in him become an ally.
I don't understand this theory. If Toki made Hiyori live through those 20 years for that specific reason, to show people that they weren't abandoned, they've done a terrible job of that. Everyone has thought she and everyone else has been dead all this time, with some only keeping hope through the prophecy itself. Kiku was even assigned to collect intel, and yet she was never able to catch wind of Komurasaki secretly being Hiyori? She may as well have just jumped in time with the others if that was the plan there.
As for Shutenmaru, he has made it abundantly clear that he only cares about Oden, not the family or the other retainers. I agree that Momo and/or Luffy will eventually win him over, but Hiyori being revealed to be alive won't be the thing that changes his mind. If his fellow retainers and Momo himself couldn't achieve that, there's no reason to think that Hiyori would.
With the appearance of Shinobu the possibility of a character being matured increases.
Not with the way Kiku described it…
For now, she is on route to meeting Shinobu and Raizou (potentially asking to help in the prison breakout) with Dog saving her. Let’s see what is her reaction to meeting them and having the opportunity of becoming a ninja under them.
Shinobu is with Nami in the capital. Raizou has likely already left himself. Not that she'd be allowed to go anyhow.
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I would say that one of the Scabbards has already been shown to us. Last chapter talks of Kamazou the Manslayer, whose appearance very clearly resembles one of the samurai Kin'emon mentioned.
The other one, the "Witching Hour Boy", is likely the final retainer due to being introduced immediately after Kamazou, but the panel makes it hard to tell if it matches the silhouette with the hat, so I'll hold off on that for now, especially due to the possibility that the final retainer has Hiyori with him which muddies everything.
Like you, I'm also skeptical of it being Hitetsu. Technically we have not actually seen him meet Kin'emon, Inuarashi, etc. as of yet, but yea, you'd think he give some kind of hint if he really was a retainer.
The reason I am less inclined to believe those two are the retainers is because they were introduced within the big scope of Kozuki allies. Unlike these other characters that were introduced in Act 1 which was when the 3 missing samurais were mentioned.
Kamazou is a candidate based on looks. But I also considered him within the possibilities.
I'm confident that the traitor has to be someone that was on Zou. It is highly suggested, if not essentially foreshadowed, that the Beast Pirates are only able to find Zou to having someone's Vivre Card. As such, that only works if the traitor was there at the time. Additionally, it would also explain how they knew that Raizou was specifically there, as opposed to telling the Beast Pirates that samurai were there in a general sense. As such, this would pretty much disqualify all of the samurai as being potential suspects.
That was on Zou when? Do you think a Mink is a traitor? Is there someone you have in mind?
The initial three samurai expressed their sadness at the state of Zou. It is not farfetched to think that all the Scabbards had gone there with Oden at one point. A Scabbard would have access to the knowledge of Zou and its Vivre Card either way as fellow retainers.
I don't understand this theory. If Toki made Hiyori live through those 20 years for that specific reason, to show people that they weren't abandoned, they've done a terrible job of that. Everyone has thought she and everyone else has been dead all this time, with some only keeping hope through the prophecy itself.
I guess a better way to express it is that not all of them escaped the 20 years of suffering. The same way there are people keeping hope through the prophecy, those are the samurai that will instantly join at seeing Momo, as we saw in the latest chapter. The are others that have kept a deep resentment for all these years. So it is is not a thing of them being there for them the entire time. But more about that they endured the hardships as well so they understand the pain.
Kiku was even assigned to collect intel, and yet she was never able to catch wind of Komurasaki secretly being Hiyori? She may as well have just jumped in time with the others if that was the plan there.
The fact that Komurasaki is Hiyori would probably be known to one person only. That would be extremely top secret information. Not something that Kiku could gather from town gossip in a different region.
As for Shutenmaru, he has made it abundantly clear that he only cares about Oden, not the family or the other retainers. I agree that Momo and/or Luffy will eventually win him over, but Hiyori being revealed to be alive won't be the thing that changes his mind. If his fellow retainers and Momo himself couldn't achieve that, there's no reason to think that Hiyori would.
But, Oden is dead. Shutenmaru needs to stop having a man crash and move on. If she is indeed Hiyori, then there is a very high chance she will also attempt to murder Orochi. She will try to get revenge. So this entire time, while enduring being in the presence of Orochi, she has held back until the 20 years had passed in hopes to see her family again. And if she is willing to take action instead of being just a damsel, then if Shutenmaru does any reflection he will realize that he was wrong for not believing in the family as well.
Not with the way Kiku described it…
Exactly, that is the joke. I do not think it possibility, but I think it would be cool to have 2 big dragons fighting. Anyways, it was more of a random thought about Momo as I was reading through Zou. I saw that line and thought: well it could be possible if Shinobu does not mess up.
Shinobu is with Nami in the capital. Raizou has likely already left himself. Not that she'd be allowed to go anyhow.
I am not saying she would, be her expressing desire in going would be a nice detail. She was picked up by Inurayashi, she is bound to meet the other retainers like those two at some point. Be it after the prison escape, after Wano. It does not need to happen now, but I think at this point it is inevitable that they at least meet.
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@K.:
The reason I am less inclined to believe those two are the retainers is because they were introduced within the big scope of Kozuki allies. Unlike these other characters that were introduced in Act 1 which was when the 3 missing samurais were mentioned.
Kamazou is a candidate based on looks. But I also considered him within the possibilities.
Thing is, they were clearly separated from the other random samurai allies in terms of importance. The others didn't get names/epithets, while these two characters did. Also them not being introduced in Act I is no big deal, as Shutenmaru is clearly the most important out of the three. So Oda taking his time to introduce the others is more than fair game. Hell, you yourself are considering Hiyori as potentially being Komurasaki, as opposed to just sticking to Act I characters.
And coming up with a candidate based on their looks is more than fair, seeing as how we have a precedent with Shutenmaru looking exactly like his earlier silhouettes.
That was on Zou when? Do you think a Mink is a traitor? Is there someone you have in mind?
They would have to be on Zou when Raizou arrived. It's the only real way to explain why the Beast Pirates were adamant that Raizou, and Raizou alone, was present on Zou.
As for the traitor being a Mink, well, pretty much only the Minks can be suspects if the traitor was indeed present at the time. The only humans around at the time was Law's crew, but there's really no reason to suspect Bepo, much less them. Unfortunately, I do not have anyone in mind. Despite rereading the arc several times, no one really stands out to me as a willing accomplice. The closest one to being slightly suspicious is actually Carrot due to being weirdly absent during the part where everyone's getting gassed and tortured, but the amount of time spent with her, as well as the detail of her having never set sail, makes it extremely hard to picture how any of that would play out. Some suspect Bariete, the monkey Mink, but his position and actions contradict that possibility. Sicillian was tortured. Wanda has inner thoughts suggesting otherwise. The Mink kings are self-explanatory. Everyone else is irrelevant.
! And Pedro is dead.
Back on the willing part, I have seen it suggested that perhaps the traitor is unaware of their actions. It's hard to picture that as well, even more so since the enemy is mostly full of straightforward Zoan users, but I guess it could serve as a possible answer to how exactly they were able to escape Wano despite having been captured. And I suppose it isn't impossible for it to be an "irrelevant" Mink, but if that's the case, then well, I don't exactly have an easy way of guessing who'd it be if that's the case.
The initial three samurai expressed their sadness at the state of Zou. It is not farfetched to think that all the Scabbards had gone there with Oden at one point. A Scabbard would have access to the knowledge of Zou and its Vivre Card either way as fellow retainers.
I'm not saying they've never been there. And maybe you can indeed make a Vivre Card of Zou itself. But it still wouldn't answer how in the world the Beast Pirates knew that only Raizou was there.
I guess a better way to express it is that not all of them escaped the 20 years of suffering. The same way there are people keeping hope through the prophecy, those are the samurai that will instantly join at seeing Momo, as we saw in the latest chapter. The are others that have kept a deep resentment for all these years. So it is is not a thing of them being there for them the entire time. But more about that they endured the hardships as well so they understand the pain.
Well in that case, you would only need Momo and the others to fulfill that role, which is what we already assumed they would do to begin with. Not really sure what Oda intends on doing with Hiyori, but surely it's something more relevant than that.
I am not saying she would, be her expressing desire in going would be a nice detail. She was picked up by Inurayashi, she is bound to meet the other retainers like those two at some point. Be it after the prison escape, after Wano. It does not need to happen now, but I think at this point it is inevitable that they at least meet.
I guess, but I wouldn't see it going the way you're theorizing it would.
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Just fringe theory but I think that Komurasaki might be
! Tama as an adult through some time travel shenanigans.
Just a hunch. We'll get to Hiyori at some point obviously but I'm not too convinced that Hiyori is Komurasaki.
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Murasaki is a purple flower, so another flower reference.
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Murasaki is a purple flower, so another flower reference.
Interesting. With regards to the speculation I posted above
! We know Tama has purple hair based on the new volume cover. Also, it's hard to tell but it looks like Tama and Komurasaki/Fox lady have the same kimono pattern. I've been flipping through Wano arc again and it seems like even the background characters each have unique kimono patterns. It's hard to tell, maybe I'll collect some side by side images of Tama and Komurasaki but their kimonos patterns look way similar
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Interesting. With regards to the speculation I posted above
! We know Tama has purple hair based on the new volume cover. Also, it's hard to tell but it looks like Tama and Komurasaki/Fox lady have the same kimono pattern. I've been flipping through Wano arc again and it seems like even the background characters each have unique kimono patterns. It's hard to tell, maybe I'll collect some side by side images of Tama and Komurasaki but their kimonos patterns look way similar
Hmmm I know Tama's hair is Purple, and I'm curious about the Kimono patterns. Also, Purple is usually represented by Royalty, Wealth, Power, Ambition, etc.
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So what do you want to say… That we will have some time travel stuff and Tama = Komurasaki
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So what do you want to say… That we will have some time travel stuff and Tama = Komurasaki
Not me, I was just bringing in some references to Komurasaki's name.
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Thing is, they were clearly separated from the other random samurai allies in terms of importance. The others didn't get names/epithets, while these two characters did. Also them not being introduced in Act I is no big deal, as Shutenmaru is clearly the most important out of the three. So Oda taking his time to introduce the others is more than fair game. Hell, you yourself are considering Hiyori as potentially being Komurasaki, as opposed to just sticking to Act I characters.
And coming up with a candidate based on their looks is more than fair, seeing as how we have a precedent with Shutenmaru looking exactly like his earlier silhouettes.
That is why I am agreeing that they are all candidates. The more I think about it, Hitetsu seems less likely so I would replace Kamazou for him. We cannot discard the possibility of one of the samurai having their hair cut off because of the events that have transpired. So the list would be:
Fishbone prisoner
Kamazou
Bewitching Boy
Hitetsu (Really low)
Yakuza working for Orochi (Really really low)Whom do you think the prisoner is, Oden's father? That was another possibility.
They would have to be on Zou when Raizou arrived. It's the only real way to explain why the Beast Pirates were adamant that Raizou, and Raizou alone, was present on Zou.
As for the traitor being a Mink, well, pretty much only the Minks can be suspects if the traitor was indeed present at the time. The only humans around at the time was Law's crew, but there's really no reason to suspect Bepo, much less them. Unfortunately, I do not have anyone in mind. Despite rereading the arc several times, no one really stands out to me as a willing accomplice. The closest one to being slightly suspicious is actually Carrot due to being weirdly absent during the part where everyone's getting gassed and tortured, but the amount of time spent with her, as well as the detail of her having never set sail, makes it extremely hard to picture how any of that would play out. Some suspect Bariete, the monkey Mink, but his position and actions contradict that possibility. Sicillian was tortured. Wanda has inner thoughts suggesting otherwise. The Mink kings are self-explanatory. Everyone else is irrelevant.
! And Pedro is dead.
I agree that we can see this in two ways: willing or unwilling accomplices. Focusing on a willing accomplice, the reason why I do not think any of the Minks could be a traitor is because it would diminish the weight of the 'Raizo is safe' reveal. Not only that, but several Minks had been going to feed Raizou while the attack was occurring, therefore, not only did the Minks know Raizou was there, but they knew where he was hidden. So if it were a Mink they would have gotten to Raizou.
Thinking about it more, even if a Scabbard was a traitor, they would potentially know where the poneglyph would be. But them not being in Zou would be the reason why the Beast Pirates did not look there.
Another point is that if a Scabbard was a traitor then if they had seen Raizou they would be able to report to Orochi that they had indeed resurfaced, not merely ghosts. Unless they only saw Raizou.
The reason why I am thinking of a traitor is because in Samurai 7, one of the samurais hates traitors because he was one himself. The yakuza calling Orochi coward gave me that same feeling.
Back on the willing part, I have seen it suggested that perhaps the traitor is unaware of their actions. It's hard to picture that as well, even more so since the enemy is mostly full of straightforward Zoan users, but I guess it could serve as a possible answer to how exactly they were able to escape Wano despite having been captured. And I suppose it isn't impossible for it to be an "irrelevant" Mink, but if that's the case, then well, I don't exactly have an easy way of guessing who'd it be if that's the case.
I'm not saying they've never been there. And maybe you can indeed make a Vivre Card of Zou itself. But it still wouldn't answer how in the world the Beast Pirates knew that only Raizou was there.
The way I had thought about it, is that Orochi and Kaido had killed Oden and gained his possessions. Among them a Vivre card to Zou/Someone in Zou.
Well in that case, you would only need Momo and the others to fulfill that role, which is what we already assumed they would do to begin with. Not really sure what Oda intends on doing with Hiyori, but surely it's something more relevant than that.
But Momo will never be able to fulfill that role, because he did not live through the 20 years. He will have to prove himself through other achievements. Oda could use the voice of all things for him to ~feel~ their pain. I am not sure how it is not relevant for one of the Kozuki family members to have shared the pain the citizens of Wano have felt, something that was even explicitly stated by Shutenmaru. It would be similar to Shirahoshi knowing whom the murderer of her mother was and keeping silent. Hiyori knows that the samurai and her brother will come back, but she cannot share it with anyone because then Orochi can then prepare for it and be more tyrannical in his reign.
I guess, but I wouldn't see it going the way you're theorizing it would.
What exactly do you think I am theorizing about?
I merely think that the girl that wants to become a ninja, which is linked to her dream of sailing with Ace, will get to meet the two most relevant ninjas we have met. The degree of separation between them is 1 through Luffy.
As for the comment on her wanting to help with the prisoner escape. Not only the escape is going to be handled by one of the ninjas, but we learned that the food the prisoners and the wardens/guards eat is dumplings. With many of them being Smile users. Tama does not need to go personally, she can just make dumplings to aid in the breakout. I am sure she would love to be able to help the guy that saved her twice from prostitution and enslavement from the Beast pirates.
She then can easily be: the Kozuki family I have been waiting for, and he/she is a ninja. This is my chance to become one! Because as far as things are concerned, Hitetsu is teaching her the way of the warrior, not ninja skills in particular.
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@K.:
That is why I am agreeing that they are all candidates. The more I think about it, Hitetsu seems less likely so I would replace Kamazou for him. We cannot discard the possibility of one of the samurai having their hair cut off because of the events that have transpired. So the list would be:
Fishbone prisoner
Kamazou
Bewitching Boy
Hitetsu (Really low)
Yakuza working for Orochi (Really really low)Whom do you think the prisoner is, Oden's father? That was another possibility.
I doubt it'd be his father. If Oda was going to keep someone from the family alive all this time, then I dunno, you may as well just go with Oden. I'd greatly dislike it being Oden (on paper at least), but it would make for a more effective and shocking reveal for a number of reasons due to him being the primary deceased Kozuki member we've been told to care about. For it to be his (at this point decrepit) father is just… whatever. On that note, I've been wondering if he recently died before the incident (maybe even through unsavory means), thereby giving Oden an opportunity to become the Shogun, until Orochi and Kaido intervened.
I don't really have any solid ideas as to who it could be, just preferences if anything. Like for example, the prisoner being the lurking legend sure would be swell. Or at the very least, I wouldn't want it to be the final retainer or Oden.
I agree that we can see this in two ways: willing or unwilling accomplices. Focusing on a willing accomplice, the reason why I do not think any of the Minks could be a traitor is because it would diminish the weight of the 'Raizo is safe' reveal. Not only that, but several Minks had been going to feed Raizou while the attack was occurring, therefore, not only did the Minks know Raizou was there, but they knew where he was hidden. So if it were a Mink they would have gotten to Raizou.
I'm well aware what it would mean for a Mink to be an outlier in a tribe that is so intensely loyal. Maybe it'll undercut the twist for some, but as it stands, it's currently the only way I can make sense of the Beast Pirates knowing Raizou was there. And it's not really confirmed that all of the Minks knew that Raizou was there. He was kept in a secret room within the Whale Tree. The ones in charge of looking after that place are the Guardians, so it would stand to reason that they were the ones who also fed Raizou. As such, they're the only ones you could say with relative certainty that knew that Raizou was holed up in there. The Musketeers and the general Mink population, not so much, aside from the obvious exception of Inuarashi. It's very possible that the only thing the theoretical traitor Mink was able to tell them is that Raizou is on Zou. After all, when the Beast Pirates arrived, it's not like Raizou was already locked up; he offered to turn himself in, but the Minks refused to give him up. So they could've easily hidden him without the traitor being aware of where Raizou was being taken.
Thinking about it more, even if a Scabbard was a traitor, they would potentially know where the poneglyph would be. But them not being in Zou would be the reason why the Beast Pirates did not look there.
Another point is that if a Scabbard was a traitor then if they had seen Raizou they would be able to report to Orochi that they had indeed resurfaced, not merely ghosts. Unless they only saw Raizou.
The reason why I am thinking of a traitor is because in Samurai 7, one of the samurais hates traitors because he was one himself. The yakuza calling Orochi coward gave me that same feeling.
The way I had thought about it, is that Orochi and Kaido had killed Oden and gained his possessions. Among them a Vivre card to Zou/Someone in Zou.
I've thought of all these possibilities, as well as the possibility of them making a Vivre Card for Inuarashi/Nekomamushi without their knowledge. But in the end, none of them answer how they knew only Raizou was there. And the idea that when the samurai were escaping, that someone just happened to have spotted only Raizou, and then also just so happened to know that he was going to Zou… that'd be a pretty underwhelming answer to the mystery. Not really Oda's style IMO.
What exactly do you think I am theorizing about?
You seemed to be suggesting that it would lead to her picking up some quick ninja skills or something in this arc.
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So what do you want to say… That we will have some time travel stuff and Tama = Komurasaki
Not sure how that would work. So far the fruit just places the person into the future (meaning they cease to exist in the time between that), it doesn't create multiple versions of the same person. Komurasaki being Momo's sister Hiyori could be a possibility though.
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@Kaido:
Not sure how that would work. So far the fruit just places the person into the future (meaning they cease to exist in the time between that), it doesn't create multiple versions of the same person. Komurasaki being Momo's sister Hiyori could be a possibility though.
Personally I'm wondering if the DF could be used to time travel to the past. I feel like Toki might have had her reasons for lying about that, given all the headaches that come from attempting to undue the past.
I think the issue is… if Toki is dead, who has the Time Travel DF now? You just know somebody's going to appear with it again in the story and use it.
And where is Hiyori? A lot of people speculate she's Komurasaki, but I'm not sure that I buy that. I feel like maybe that'd be too predictable, idk.
Maybe Tama achieved her goal of becoming an enchanting kunoichi by traveling to the past.
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I've always wondered what Kamurocho meant in the Yakuza series, and learning it through this chapter was an unexpected treat.
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Here's a side-by-side of the kimonos I was talking about.
!
It's a small detail but I've looked through the Wano chapters again and even the kimonos for background/filler characters are fairly distinctive. Maybe I'm looking into this too much but I'm interested in seeing where the story goes with Komurasaki's introduction. I think most people agree she'll actually turn out to be somebody that's already been hinted in the story -
To top it off, there is a break next week
The ENTIRE Weekly Shonen Jump is having a break, not just Oda this time.
I don't see how a chapter that introduces a character that will have an importance somehow does not move the story forward. There is this thing called progression. Do tell how can Oda jam pack everything in a 17 pages chapter without it seeming rushed.
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Bumped into this on accident from the latest Smash Bros while searching up "Komurasaki". The purple-haired girl in the game is named Komurasaki and comes from a village of yokai. I don't know anything about the game but her goal is to "restore the forest surrounding her village and keep its people from moving somewhere else." (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/famicom-bunko-hajimari-no-mori/)
I'm sure parts of the story are lifted from some folklore tale. Don't know if anyone would know more about it?
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Here's a side-by-side of the kimonos I was talking about.
! https://i.imgur.com/n0UA22P.png
It's a small detail but I've looked through the Wano chapters again and even the kimonos for background/filler characters are fairly distinctive. Maybe I'm looking into this too much but I'm interested in seeing where the story goes with Komurasaki's introduction. I think most people agree she'll actually turn out to be somebody that's already been hinted in the storyMaybe the courtesan is Tama's mother and she abandoned her at a young age to become a courtesan/political problems. I think it's more likely that Tama will play a bigger role then just a orphan that Luffy wants to protect.
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Personally I'm wondering if the DF could be used to time travel to the past. I feel like Toki might have had her reasons for lying about that, given all the headaches that come from attempting to undue the past.
I think the issue is… if Toki is dead, who has the Time Travel DF now? You just know somebody's going to appear with it again in the story and use it.
And where is Hiyori? A lot of people speculate she's Komurasaki, but I'm not sure that I buy that. I feel like maybe that'd be too predictable, idk.
Maybe Tama achieved her goal of becoming an enchanting kunoichi by traveling to the past.
With all due respect, I really don't understand the argument that Toki was somehow lying about how time travel works just to support a theory that allows one to circumvent O-tama's age/experience deficit. There are very, VERY significant narrative reasons why bi-directional time travel is a bad idea (or at the very least, a highly problematic one) for a series like One Piece…
Even with future-only time travel, the current wielder of the Toki Toki no Mi (provided they exist) would put even Kuma's ability to "get rid of problems" to shame, but opening up the world to manipulation by meddlers from the future takes everything we think we know about the chain of events and tosses it out the proverbial window. You're talking about setting up a situation where a massive, convoluted world full of villainous schemes and government conspiracies can no longer be trusted to provide a logical progression of cause to effect. Why bother weighing the option of assassinating the living members of the Nefertari family now, if the Gorousei could task a CP0 agent with ensuring they never existed in the first place? How could we be sure that exact same process hasn't happened 30 times already to people the Strawhats would have interacted with had they not been preemptively killed off before they could meet for the first time? Why hasn't anyone gone back to smother Blackbeard or Kaidou or Big Mom in their crib as an infant? Does the timeline run on multiverse theory or would they have to be careful to avoid reality-rewriting paradoxes? And can any of that be addressed without opening massive plot holes and inconsistencies in the story?
So far, the only thing said in-series on the subject states that time travel to the past is impossible, and by restricting it in that fashion, Oda neatly avoids all of those potential issues. While it may turn out that he's pulling the wool over our eyes and planning to introduce One Piece's "Future Trunks", there is literally nothing that suggests it as of yet. I can see an argument for Komurasaki potentially being Hiyori, as that is a known plot point that has yet to be resolved. But her being O-tama flies in the face of everything we currently know about how time travel works in this series, while conveniently ignoring the fact that she (so far as we know) made no attempt to either join Ace four years ago when he was on Wano or save his life when he was about to be executed, both of which a time travelling O-tama would have been fully aware of.
I'm looking forward to seeing O-tama grow into an "enchanting kunoichi", but I don't think this is how she's going to get there...
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With all due respect, I really don't understand the argument that Toki was somehow lying about how time travel works just to support a theory that allows one to circumvent O-tama's age/experience deficit. There are very, VERY significant narrative reasons why bi-directional time travel is a bad idea (or at the very least, a highly problematic one) for a series like One Piece…
Even with future-only time travel, the current wielder of the Toki Toki no Mi (provided they exist) would put even Kuma's ability to "get rid of problems" to shame, but opening up the world to manipulation by meddlers from the future takes everything we think we know about the chain of events and tosses it out the proverbial window. You're talking about setting up a situation where a massive, convoluted world full of villainous schemes and government conspiracies can no longer be trusted to provide a logical progression of cause to effect. Why bother weighing the option of assassinating the living members of the Nefertari family now, if the Gorousei could task a CP0 agent with ensuring they never existed in the first place? How could we be sure that exact same process hasn't happened 30 times already to people the Strawhats would have interacted with had they not been preemptively killed off before they could meet for the first time? Why hasn't anyone gone back to smother Blackbeard or Kaidou or Big Mom in their crib as an infant? Does the timeline run on multiverse theory or would they have to be careful to avoid reality-rewriting paradoxes? And can any of that be addressed without opening massive plot holes and inconsistencies in the story?
So far, the only thing said in-series on the subject states that time travel to the past is impossible, and by restricting it in that fashion, Oda neatly avoids all of those potential issues. While it may turn out that he's pulling the wool over our eyes and planning to introduce One Piece's "Future Trunks", there is literally nothing that suggests it as of yet. I can see an argument for Komurasaki potentially being Hiyori, as that is a known plot point that has yet to be resolved. But her being O-tama flies in the face of everything we currently know about how time travel works in this series, while conveniently ignoring the fact that she (so far as we know) made no attempt to either join Ace four years ago when he was on Wano or save his life when he was about to be executed, both of which a time travelling O-tama would have been fully aware of.
I'm looking forward to seeing O-tama grow into an "enchanting kunoichi", but I don't think this is how she's going to get there...
It would depend on the time travel mechanics Oda would go for. I'm in agreement that past events can't be changed otherwise that'd create all sorts of plot issues, like why wouldn't Luffy go back in time and save Ace?
I would reference the below:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StableTimeLoop
You wouldn't be able to tamper with the past as they already happened, making time traveling to the past futile. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for Toki to want to lie about time travel to the past being impossible under a stable time loop.
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Komurasaki is one of the most famous Japanese Oiran (courtesan) in Edo era more than 300 years ago.
She had a good boyfriend named Hirai. He wanted to free and marry her, but couldn't due to the fact that a large amount of money was necessary to buy freedom of Oiran.
He started robbery and killing people for money, but finally got caught by police and executed..One day, a rich man appeared and paid much money to a prostitute broker enough to buy the freedom of Komurasaki to get married to her.
However, she doesn't want to accept this offer due to her unchanged love for Hirai.
She committed suicide in front of Hirai's grave on the very day the rich man was supposed to buy her freedom.Orochi might be based on this "rich man". If so, I wonder who would be the counterpart for Hirai.
It may be that Oda borrowed only her name, not her backstory though..
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Oh yeah I don't think Oda would 100% borrow from a source material but it's interesting to speculate over. I wonder if Kyoshiro has some elements of Hirai's story.
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Just fringe theory but I think that Komurasaki might be
! Tama as an adult through some time travel shenanigans.
Just a hunch. We'll get to Hiyori at some point obviously but I'm not too convinced that Hiyori is Komurasaki.
Man that wasnt what I expected. That'd be kind of dark if the SH's met this cute little girl and then meet her in the unchanged present future present as a courtesan
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Or maybe Kamazou the manslayer, since he fits the '' killing people'' part, or maybe the fish bone guy from prison, since he fits the ''captured'' part, then again shuten maru also fits because of robbery part. Maybe all 3 are inspired from Hirai story, all are doing it to get enough money so they can buy the freedom of Komurasaki. Even more if she is momonosuke's sister and they were loyal to Oden.
Funny how Kyoshiro covers his right eye with his hair, just like sanji.
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Komurasaki being tama's sister or mother or even aunt would be interesting
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@Long:
Man that wasnt what I expected. That'd be kind of dark if the SH's met this cute little girl and then meet her in the unchanged present future present as a courtesan
Yeah I agree it'd be pretty weird. When referring to Komurasaki as an idol/courtesan if Oda is referring to it in the historical sense or in the modern. I was thinking maybe it'd be more of a riff on Japan idol culture today. IDK much about that stuff.
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I wonder how Hancock would feel about being potentially upstaged in the beauty department, LOL. Just imagine the two ladies clashing over who's hotter.
So is Orochi using a big puppet with all those serpent heads and isn't actually a Zoan of any kind, is he a genuine Hebi Hebi no Mi Model: Orochi mythical Zoan user, or an Orochi SMILE user? I feel like we haven't seen any Kabuki or other puppet references in Wano yet so he might be the one who uses that. Although being a Zoan user, SMILE or otherwise, would fit with Kaido's zoo-themed crew. I wonder what kind of assassins Queen has working under him, if they're anything special or just more fodder.
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I wonder how Hancock would feel about being potentially upstaged in the beauty department, LOL. Just imagine the two ladies clashing over who's hotter.
So is Orochi using a big puppet with all those serpent heads and isn't actually a Zoan of any kind, is he a genuine Hebi Hebi no Mi Model: Orochi mythical Zoan user, or an Orochi SMILE user? I feel like we haven't seen any Kabuki or other puppet references in Wano yet so he might be the one who uses that. Although being a Zoan user, SMILE or otherwise, would fit with Kaido's zoo-themed crew. I wonder what kind of assassins Queen has working under him, if they're anything special or just more fodder.
Though no matter cool this is, he's already been established as swordsman of sorts, right? Though, seeing a puppet fight is a cool idea…
I wish to see Spiritualists as well..
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It would depend on the time travel mechanics Oda would go for. I'm in agreement that past events can't be changed otherwise that'd create all sorts of plot issues, like why wouldn't Luffy go back in time and save Ace?
I would reference the below:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StableTimeLoop
You wouldn't be able to tamper with the past as they already happened, making time traveling to the past futile. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable for Toki to want to lie about time travel to the past being impossible under a stable time loop.
In order to assume a Stable Time Loop scenario, you first have to assume the series is operating on a variation of single timeline theory (aka Terminator-style), rather than the more flexible multiverse theory. While we currently have no indication one way or the other, single timeline would, if anything, be the MORE complicated route to take for a series this massive - more moving parts to consider, et al.
Furthermore, the supposed "futility" of changing the past in this type of scenario misses the point. A Stable Time Loop is stable not because travelling to the past doesn't change anything, but because travelling to the past is necessary to bring about the events in question. Spoilers for Terminator 1, but John Connor, the resistance leader against the robot menace, would never have been born had the Terminator not been sent back in time to kill his mother, as the man sent back to protect her from it turned out to be his father and the two never would have co-existed in the same time long enough to…you know...had the Terminator not been sent in the first place.
Whether the time traveler attempts to change the future or not, their actions are part of the very reason the future becomes as it is in a Stable Time Loop scenario, which means that if Komurasaki is a time travelling O-tama, you (or rather, Oda) are now in the position of needing to explain why her actions and/or inactions over the past X number of years helped to bring about the events as we see them today. It is not simply enough to assume a stable time loop is in play...it needs to be shown. There is no reason why a time travelling O-tama wouldn't want to at least try meeting/saving Ace (or do something to at least warn the Kozuki clan in advance of their fall), so therefore we need to know why her efforts failed.
Then follow that exact same process for anyone/everyone else in the entire setting that might have popped in from later in the time stream without tangling up plot threads into an inscrutable, indecipherable ball.
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So is Orochi using a big puppet with all those serpent heads and isn't actually a Zoan of any kind, is he a genuine Hebi Hebi no Mi Model: Orochi mythical Zoan user, or an Orochi SMILE user?
Maybe he has a stylized Orochi monster for his throne. :ninja:
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I doubt it'd be his father. If Oda was going to keep someone from the family alive all this time, then I dunno, you may as well just go with Oden. I'd greatly dislike it being Oden (on paper at least), but it would make for a more effective and shocking reveal for a number of reasons due to him being the primary deceased Kozuki member we've been told to care about. For it to be his (at this point decrepit) father is just… whatever. On that note, I've been wondering if he recently died before the incident (maybe even through unsavory means), thereby giving Oden an opportunity to become the Shogun, until Orochi and Kaido intervened.
Oden's father is sure to have played a role in Oden's demise. Oden's father was the previous Shogun, so I get the vibe that Orochi poisoned his mind and got him against his son. I do not think that Oden ever became Shogun. I think after becoming a lord he soon embarked with Whitebeard and Roger. This period gave Orochi the chance to either dethrone Oden's father or manipulate him. During Kinemon's retelling he said that Oden was tried and prosecuted as a criminal.
I don't really have any solid ideas as to who it could be, just preferences if anything. Like for example, the prisoner being the lurking legend sure would be swell. Or at the very least, I wouldn't want it to be the final retainer or Oden.
I am not sure the lurking legend would be the one. I think Miss Bakkin could be more of that considering her track record. I think that the prisoner has to be relevant to Wano. Did the interview not mention the legend going against Luffy? Which considering the last couple of chapters, it seems weird that the prisoner would be an enemy instead of an ally. Not sure why him being the last retainer would be a bad thing.
I'm well aware what it would mean for a Mink to be an outlier in a tribe that is so intensely loyal. Maybe it'll undercut the twist for some, but as it stands, it's currently the only way I can make sense of the Beast Pirates knowing Raizou was there.
How I see it, it would not undercut it, but would make it pointless. We can analyze the Minks loyalty better by focusing on Pekoms. Despite his intense loyalty towards Big Mom, any and every time his kin came into the picture he would be most loyal to his people. If the Minks could betray just like any other species, the entire scene crumbles as we then question, why go so far for Raizou? If they inherently can just betray. Pekoms never told Big Mom about the poneglyph neither.
And it's not really confirmed that all of the Minks knew that Raizou was there. He was kept in a secret room within the Whale Tree. The ones in charge of looking after that place are the Guardians, so it would stand to reason that they were the ones who also fed Raizou. As such, they're the only ones you could say with relative certainty that knew that Raizou was holed up in there. The Musketeers and the general Mink population, not so much, aside from the obvious exception of Inuarashi.
The same way we do not know if they all know, we do not know if they do not. The Guardians are tasked with guarding it, but that does not mean others would not know about it. You also have to consider that Raizo was fed during the conflict which most likely involved the entire Guardian/Musketeers forces. At least it makes sense to send lesser combatants to feed Raizou.
It's very possible that the only thing the theoretical traitor Mink was able to tell them is that Raizou is on Zou. After all, when the Beast Pirates arrived, it's not like Raizou was already locked up; he offered to turn himself in, but the Minks refused to give him up. So they could've easily hidden him without the traitor being aware of where Raizou was being taken.
But then it seems convenient that the traitor would not try to follow or "innocently" ask where Raizou was kept. Moreover, it seems that the traitor would have to be an irrelevant Mink or a Musketeer. I also think that the Musketeers would know about the secret room. Even if they are not tasked to guard it. They at least know the Guardians have a specialized task.
I've thought of all these possibilities, as well as the possibility of them making a Vivre Card for Inuarashi/Nekomamushi without their knowledge. But in the end, none of them answer how they knew only Raizou was there. And the idea that when the samurai were escaping, that someone just happened to have spotted only Raizou, and then also just so happened to know that he was going to Zou… that'd be a pretty underwhelming answer to the mystery. Not really Oda's style IMO.
That is where the vivre card or traitor could come in. We already know that they were spotted. Let's say that they saw Raizou's big head. When they report back, they draw a picture. The traitor sees it and recognizes him as Raizou and then tells them: they might have gone to Zou. If we consider the traitor to be a Scabbard then they would know about Zou, that Cat and Dog escaped and that it could be an allied place for him.
Without a traitor, it is harder to make that connection if they had a vivre card from Oden's possessions.
You seemed to be suggesting that it would lead to her picking up some quick ninja skills or something in this arc.
Not really, I can imagine both ninjas turning her down, at first, to be honest. I think Wano is where Tama proves herself to be accepted as a ninja disciple. Considering she already has a power that can help the alliance greatly.
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Though no matter cool this is, he's already been established as swordsman of sorts, right? Though, seeing a puppet fight is a cool idea…
I wish to see Spiritualists as well..
No reason he can't be a swordsman and have another gimmick (or his puppets could be the means by which he practices swordsmanship). Like if Cracker somehow ran out of biscuit soldiers and had to fight by himself, that would be kind of how I'd picture it; someone with an ego like that would prefer to show off the big machine or other ostentatious talent before falling back on the more mundane thing that everyone and their mother probably practices in Wano anyway. But if he turns out to be an authentic Zoan Orochi, he'll be yet another swordsman who probably holds swords in the mouth (since the snakes don't have arms…or maybe some versions of Orochi do? I dunno.) If so, it'll be cool to see if Zoro fights him, just 'cause he was the first one we saw doing that.
@S.C.:
Maybe he has a stylized Orochi monster for his throne.
Maybe, but I don't think Oda would show a thing like that in a teasing silhouette if there weren't a bigger reason behind it. I like that the singular image there opens up so many distinct possibilities. If he's a mutated Orochi SMILE, how hideously deformed might he look? I can't wait to see either way.
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@All:
The ENTIRE Weekly Shonen Jump is having a break, not just Oda this time.
I don't see how a chapter that introduces a character that will have an importance somehow does not move the story forward. There is this thing called progression. Do tell how can Oda jam pack everything in a 17 pages chapter without it seeming rushed.
No, only One Piece is having a break not the magazine.