@Count:
So because she might have had this condition for years, they're not an active problem that the citizens there would appreciate having solved? We saw her literally wreck whole buildings, kill people, and her her family, which is also her own pirate crew, terrified. I think that's something they would appreciate getting over with. You're basically claiming that if any kingdom has a problem that's existed for years and they look happy on the surface that they should be left be. Or the illness should only be used as a plot device for allowing the Straw Hats to escape which is never properly explored/confronted, or at least not until another arc where Big Mom can be the main antagonist. That's pretty negligent both on an ethical and storytelling level.
There's a difference between it's a problem and it's gonna destroy the kingdom(and the kid isn't dead). You are pushing for her to give away the chance to become much more powerful and get what she wants for a problem that the kingdom is managing. When you see the deal she gave Pedro and crew for attempting to steal her rock letting the strawhats with their lives and crew is already extremely generous.
Yeah, she cares about the Germa a lot. Doesn't mean she can't get over it after seeing/hearing about the Vinsmokes pulling shady tricks when the wedding chaos starts and they find out they've been targeted. The Germa cloning tech might even be destroyed.
Your first sentence is even more reason for her to want to take that tech. All it would do is justify her own betrayal and give her more reason to take the technology as retaliation.
You're forgetting how Big Mom's been built-up as a character who can actually be persuaded and lenient, which all goes down the tubes if it that doesn't amount to anything.I know that the Vinsmoke betrayal reveal does hurt her character integrity, but it doesn't completely wash away everything establish about her. If anything, it just makes the Vinsmoke situation even more mysterious and concerning.
1- You are the one claiming her character is compromised. I'm merely disappointed. I already said it could be explained by cockiness to being close to her goal or a fear of a repeat of Lola.
2-One key component of her character is selfishness. She has always claim that pirate should do what they want and like people that has the ball to stand up for themselves and go for their desire. Selfishness is her pirate way and I think even you recognized so before. Giving up on the Germa would be against up her character exactly because she as been establish to favor the selfishness aspect of piracy.
3-She has never given up on something she wanted even in her deals.
4-She isn't lenient. She is "fair". If the strawhats help(and Reiju) she can let them leave without repurcussion but she isn't losing what she just fought for.
I think that Big Mom's wedding causing a mess where she almost loses EVERYTHING she's amassed so far with her kingdom, family, overall power, and her own safety, is enough to make her give up on Germa's tech out of both gratefulness and probably because it might be impossible to get by the end of the arc. You're putting so much emphasis on how she'll never let go for Germa's tech when we don't even know why she wants it so much yet.
1-I'm putting emphasis on it because she has been portrayed as selfish and believing pirate should go for what they want.
2-I'm insisting because losing power or having to fight for it is even more reason to want that boost in power.
3-I'm also making the point that letting Luffy leave with his crew and without taking part of his lifespan and with her rock data is already extremely generous.
4- What is Germa without the tech or the clones?
Outwitting a Yonko? What exactly do you mean by me saying something like that?
@Count:
Why not? At the wedding, the Straw Hats can show that they can outsmart and coerce a freaking Emperor as well as either defeat or even save the Vinsmokes.
I've been supporting that general outline I've listed for you happening for months lol. I NEVER thought Big Mom would be the final antagonist of this arc, at least in a non-delirious state while Bege, the Vinsmokes, and now a character as shady as Pudding, are around. Although I would argue that in the setup I created, yeah, they did outsmart Big Mom. Especially when they could have left but decide to stay for the wedding to save Reiju, Pound, maybe Brook, and other stuff that can also come up. It's been too built-up to not happen, along with the other plot threads that need resolutions.
Lola, Vinsmoke,Capone,Protecting the Vinsmoke, turning on the vinsmoke etc… That's to much you hope to cram in there.
I'm not sure what relaying on Big Mom has to do with outsmarting her.
The marriage? We'll see what it should have looked like and Big Mom get mad had a second ruined one
How is Bege's coup not a thing? This arc is already riddled with betrayals. And we're not ever going to come back to Totland, it completely defies One Piece's narrative structure and would make this arc redundant when we can just get everything over with her. Getting conclusions on established subplots is not just cramming them in. What you're suggesting is leaving them on unsatisfying cliffhangers until at least Kaido's over with, and when Big Mom loses her luster as a villain and just becomes another Yonko to take down even though Oda always wants Luffy to somehow overcome the odds as an underdog. This arc embodies everything about Luffy being an underdog. Returning to Big Mom one day when the Straw Hats are more ready and already have a Yonko defeat under their belt doesn't.
1-Oda loved to make his story as clear as possible. Subtlety are for the long con game. So you could easily be reading to much into that or the betrayal will play a bigger role than what you plan.
2-Putting them all in the marriage that would require several tone shift to serve them all is cramming them in.
3-What I propose is the yonko forcing our protagonist being forced to escape after accomplishing his goal and a yonko destroying 2 individual group that are supposedly a big deal in this world.
4-What you are suggesting is a yonko getting assisted by our protagonist to deal with forces of forces of two lesser characters(by your own standards) and being so grateful that she gives up on power and better yet let them go with a clue to the one piece after being weaken.
5- Both cases Big Mom doesn't get fought but at least in one she is a threat and proves why she is a part of a group of badasses. In the second she is another in a long list of ally that had Luffy's help in her own backyard. But being the woman of the group I guess it would be fitting of Oda's writing.
I think that Bege's coup and the Fishman Island bombs are going to get her attention more than the Straw Hat's actions this arc during the moment of the wedding. And who said Reiju needed to keep the clone tech? It could be destroyed. Either through some sort of self-destruct sequence or someone like Sanji. And if it's the latter, the arc would have gone to hell so much that she shouldn't have a reason to care so much. If anything, her family should be more of a priority to her. It seems inconsistent with how she wants to kill Lola and doesn't take the consent of her daughters seriously,
1-I'm pretty sure wedding gifts is for after marriage and doesn't help your case when it's from fishman island and ties to Jimbei(who will probably be a strawhats) leaving her.
2-The clones makes up most of the citizens. And they have much more tech than that.
3- Promotes Selfishness. Threw away her reputation for that tech. Will have fought for that tech so even more motivation to get it. Have plenty of good deal to to do without giving up the tech.
but I doubt that Oda inserted a page like this for no reason
! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U0KrhcQtaJA/WBob1tps-cI/AAAAAAABFLA/eyz-fohHF9oX1uD04ylgdWNzXEAoprDzgCHM/s16000/0845-008.png
The one where she said everybody have people they want to kill so get over it? You see that as something that promotes her reconciliation with Lola?
And she killed Moscato when she had nov control over herself and had amnesia afterwords. And her kids hid the body. So despite how it looks, she does seem to legitimate care about her children. Probably in a doting "I know what's best for you" way. Which is obviously flawed, but holds potential for her to forgive Lola and valuing her family's safety more than the Germa tech. And Lola might unexpectedly return during/after the wedding to shake things up for all we know.
1-The kid isn't dead.
2-Never said she doesn't care. But except if by the end you expect her to be in a position of inferiority where she has to choose between her children dying or the tech she doesn't have to choose.
3-Why would having the tech put her kid in danger?
Pretty much. It's doubtful she's ever going to get that tech for whatever purpose she wants. Wouldn't be surprised if all of the technology gets destroyed.
I can't see a peaceful resolution that pass by the Germa getting destroyed. At best you could have the germa fighting away with the strawhats by their side but that's pretty far from a peaceful resolution.
Didn't she literally question Brook about the Poneglyph in Chapter 851? If I'm right (and that wasn't just Manga Stream being Manga Stream), then she already knows. Brook getting captured is a possibility. But that would be tricky because I can't see the Straw Bats going to the library room a second time this arc.
Her knowing is another problem with the climax getting postpone and trying a peaceful resolution. The strawhats lives+Zeff+the copy should be enough to claim the tech and wathever else she wants like the Germa. And a peaceful resolution can't last since the bomb is still a thing. So I really doubt we get all the way to the marriage.
And the wedding is the built-up climax. Where things are the most tense as plot-twists drop, lives are on the line, character-defining decisions are made, and the outlook of the plot's direction take another direction from just saving Sanji. I still don't see why you treat this majorly hyped up event that serves as the convergence of so many plot threads in this arc as expendable just because the castle is in an uproar. We didn't even expect Jimbei to show up to save Luffy so soon. I can't think of anything more lackluster than Luffy wreaking havoc, grabbing Sanji into the Mirror World or something, and just leaving everything else that's been built-up this arc to either be never dealt with again or tackled when they have less gravitas compared to now.
Because the marriage is 12 hours away from the start of the climax. And since the end of the arc won't really have Big Mom be at peace with them for long I can see Oda going for a fully explosive one instead.
Well, what other event is going to make the Charlotte Family tension plotline get a satisfactory conclusion? There's nothing left after the current chaos besides the wedding the next day.
I don't think that having Linlin deal with Bege and the Vinsmokes rising up is that suspenseful when it's obvious that they're never going to have major story roles that extend out of an arc. They scream arc-exclusive antagonists. On that front, the only possibilities are Big Mom winning or getting dethroned. And the latter would be one of the most disappointing results to ever happen in this manga, because a Yonko both got off-paneled and were defeated by such weaker factions rather than another Yonko crew or the Marine's higher-ups. And if it's the former, then yes, the arc was pretty much pointless besides Big Mom getting angrier. As if that changes anything and doesn't make her reputation as a threat dwindle down after Kaido gets taken down at Wano Country and already claiming to destroy the Straw Hats before the revelations on Zou. Oda never leaves as many plot threads hanging in an arc as you're suggesting. Even compared to Sabaody Archipelago and Impel Down. He saves off-panel stuff like that for world events away from where the current/next arc is set. That's probably what he's going to do for whatever the "Reverie arc" exactly entails.
Except if we leave in a explosive situation 1- she is still a threat our protagonist had to run from 2- she can get weaken by the intestine fight making it a great time for a yonko or marines to swoop in for the kill making it shocking for the reader. 3- The protagonist will have an effect on it since he was the reason stuff started going south for Big Mom. 4- I don't see how a peaceful resolution accomplish anything.
You misspelled "After Kaido's arc, you don't really care." Not that I mean this statement literally, she can still be intimidating a legitimate threat, obviously. But as much as she can ever be compared to the arc occurring right now. Which is why she should be dealt with right now to give her antagonist potential the best credibility it can have before it wears out.
Her receiving help from the protagonist rather than making him flee doesn't help her character. It's exactly because she is that threatening right now that it is interesting to leave her on a high note rather than a low one where there is little to no tension.
Well, you should have known by now that Big Mom never looked as hardcore evil as most arc antagonists due to always having a few redeemable features. And still does. Meanwhile, Kaido's around the corner and looks as irredeemable as we expect a typical arc antagonist to be. And there are way more major plot threads leading to Kaido then Big Mom. With the Totland arc probably being a plot thread to Wano Country itself. Although there are probably links to Elbaf and Vegapunk too with Caesar, Judge, and the overall Giant controversy.
I'm not really sure what redeemable features you want to talk about a Doflamingo didn't have or what being evil has to do with anything I said. BUt I will point out that I don't have her punched by Luffy if that's your point.
And Brûlée thought Urouge was dead. So he most likely snuck away, despite how impossible it should realistically be in an injured state. Probably the same lazy off-panel reason Bonney was able to escape from the World Government over the timeskip just because Oda can do whatever he wants off-panel. Or one of his crewmates has a hax teleporting fruit or something.
She mostly seems to not give a damn.
And we don't know about the Kid situation enough to make that type of judgment.
We saw her not give damn about it when Pekoms brought it up.
Especially the Straw Hats, as of the moment, literally declared war to her face and tried to steal her Road Poneglyph script. It's very possible for all of that tension to get solved by the end of the arc with the wedding chaos and Big Mom getting knocked down a peg, but we shouldn't compare those situations to the severity of either the Straw Hats or Jimbei. Especially when the latter wants to join the former, and thus combine their problems in Big Mom's eyes as being linked. The only reason why Big Mom agreed to let Fishman Island prosper was because of Luffy. If the Straw Hats escape, with Jimbei in tow after leaving her crew and choosing to help out/join the Straw Hats, then it's highly unlikely for Fishman Island to stay safe. In fact, knowing how tactical she is, she would probably attack it to get them there to protect it.
I don't see all that tension being dealt in chaos filled marriage where the strawhats stacked up a bunch of grievance to Big mom.
Oda wanting tension is exactly what I'm expecting.
But all of that isn't likely to happen when looking at how One Piece's narrative has been structured so far and looks to be structured in the future. A return to Totland or Big Mom coming back as an arc antagonist doesn't fit at all. After Wano Country, Blackbeard and the World Government should start finally taking over the focus of One Piece as we approach the endgame with the two stepping stone Yonkos mainly meant to set up plot-threads and test the strength growth of the main characters out of the way
But a massive threat getting dealt with so to shock the reader seems fitting.
Which usually comes before a fight near the end of the arc where Luffy goes all out? Except that we've already gotten that with Cracker earlier on? And the only characters left in the building who could give Luffy a decent fight as Smoothies and Big Mom herself, characters that Luffy's not going defeat in fair fights for multiple obvious reasons? This arc isn't going to follow every single step of the formula, and it shouldn't.
Near the end? Seems to be it always happen fairly early. First fight with Crocodile, getting trapped in the snake, getting stuck between building and so on… So Luffy getting capture is right on the usual time frame.
It's possible. But considering Oda's tracker record of Pell-esque situations, I think it was Oda just being Oda.
Except this was before Pell. When battles looked bloody and deadly. Where 4 random dudes died drinking strength water and without contributing to anything. Where Mr 5 was killed without second tough. It is also after we saw that Robin had been undermining Crocodile the whole time and only wanted to read her stone. So yes she let Igaram live, he didn't magically survive. I will be the first to say that Oda doesn't kill(meaning Monet, Vergo and that Big mom's kid are alive) but back the rule was not yet a detriment in the story.