The best animator Toei has? He did the Vegetto vs Zamasu fight and also Luffys Gear 4.
Dragonball Discussion
-
-
Who is Shida and why is this good news? Really no idea who people in the industry are, I just watch what is delivered lol.
Shida is one of the best animators we got in Dragon Ball and DBZ (and look in One Piece and other series also).
Look at his work:
-
Who is Shida and why is this good news? Really no idea who people in the industry are, I just watch what is delivered lol.
Yeah, gonna be honest, the animation has been really incredibly good at times. I've been pretty impressed with some of the stuff they've done here, especially as LordPerucho said, the Vegetto vs. Zamasu fight.
Proves Toei DOES have some great animators like Shida and CAN pull out something good when they're really trying… even if it's incredibly obvious they still cut corners and phone it in sometimes too. (Goku vs. Beers Round 1 on Kaio's planet... lol)But hey, even at its worse, at least Super never went Creepy-Derp looking like some of the scenes in Z.
!
-
even if it's incredibly obvious they still cut corners and phone it in sometimes too. (Goku vs. Beers Round 1 on Kaio's planet… lol)
That fight actually looked pretty good on the BDs though. A few art corrections here and a few motion blurs there really did wonders for it. And thankfully, it seems Toei are all too happy to pretend the TV-version of that episode never happened so the streaming version uses the BD-footage.
-
After taking the time to think about it I can now say that I loved everything about this episode : the fusion time-limit explanation (which makes more sense that the one we made up as kids when we watched the Buu fight), SSJB Vegito looking great (hopefully now that we know it's time-limited, it will come back later), and the way the fight ended with Trunks giving the final blow (which looked really painful if Zamasu has something between his legs ).
My first impression was slightly little less great because I would have prefered if Trunks "Genki Sword" was something he did on purpose. Maybe we'll get some explanation in the next episode or in the manga that's a little more detailed.
Even if we don't, I'm actually fine with it now because the whole scene looked great IMO. I know I might be in the minority but that doesn't matter to me. -
Karma killed Zamasu / he was cut in 2, just like the first "Ningen" he killed
-
Just to add something to my Future Trunks bashing (Loved him at the start of the arc)
With his new UNEXPLAINED pseudo god form he suddenly is easily not only SSB level and above but also able to sense god ki suddenly… Something he wasn't able to do at the start of the arc.
Poor Vegeta needed half a year training with Whis while Trunks just some days.
And Goku should be ashamed. Trunks is able to do a Genkidama while draining energy of people without asking them... on top on that he can do it in his unexplained SUPER SAIYAN form. Something told to be imposible for Goku and he always needs to be in base.
-
And Goku should be ashamed. Trunks is able to do a Genkidama while draining energy of people without asking them…
When did Trunks steal Cell's Super move from Budokai 3:ninja:
-
Just head canon stuff here but Trunks' transformation could've been a combo of rage and from repeatedly fighting and fighting with other characters who already have God ki. Maybe getting shanked by black so much kinda acted like forcing nen activation in someone through the use of nen lol.
-
Goku went Super Saiyan the first time thanks to the rage produced from Krillin's death, Vegeta flipped the fuck out on Beerus when he hit Bulma and actually hurt him…
Oh yeah, and the first time Future Trunks went Super Saiyan was in grief from Future Gohan's death. Saiyans tend to get power boosts when emotionally charged, and ho boy does Future Trunks have a lot to be emotionally charged about.
-
Personally I am ok with Trunks getting the kill just because it lets me dream that maybe Gohan will be useful for once (post Cell). I know I will be disapointed the next time anyways but still.
However I do think it is stupid that Trunks learned the Mafuba in a couple minutes and that he learned the spirit bomb at some point without knowing.
-
People complaining about the power level stuff seem to be forgetting the part where Goku and Vegeta both gave Trunks their Ki in addition to all the other living things.
-
People complaining about the power level stuff seem to be forgetting the part where Goku and Vegeta both gave Trunks their Ki in addition to all the other living things.
Yeah and their Ki is obviously >>>Ki of all Planet Earth that killed Kid Buu.
-
So it was basically a Spirit Bomb in sword form.
I'm cool with that.
-
Vegeta fan's should just be thankful that his bloodline is becoming as dope as Goku's. I try to find the positive.
-
Ok, I just rewatched the fight and I think people are definitely overreacting on the complaining about Trunks' power. Sure, he got some kind of boost from anger recently, as well as, I would argue a ton of Zenkais he no doubt got from the multiple beatdowns and senzu recoveries he got over this arc… But the people complaining that he apparently got stronger than Zamasu or Vegetto look like they're plain wrong. The groundwork was laid for Trunks to be able to win the way he does.
-
I do remember it being said at one point by... I think Goku that Zamasu is somewhat Reckless when it comes to taking hits since he knows he's immortal. If you know it isn't going to do crap, why block any attacks?
-
Gowasu noted that the fact that Zamasu was a fusion of a mortal being and an immortal being made him unstable and vulnerable
-
That being said, Vegetto did a TON of damage. Hell, before Vegetto even happened Goku did enough damage that his body started breaking down into that purple goop and then broke the "Halo" thing on his back and it doesn't come back after that. That's all BEFORE Vegetto hits him with an absolutely epic beatdown that ended with Vegetto hitting him with that "Final Kamehameha" attack which Vegetto said he believed should have finished Zamasu. He may have been wrong and it didn't obviously, but if he thought it should have that must mean it was a pretty strong hit. It wasn't even the last one. Vegetto got one last super powered punch in on him before they de-fused.
-
During the Vegetto fight, once Zamasu starts losing, he gets angry and if you notice, bulks up considerably. After that, Vegetto notes that he's readily outclassing Zamasu on speed. How much you wanna bet Zamasu did some equivalent to Trunks' super slow USSJ form? Hell, you could even say Toei laid the groundwork on this by showing Trunks fake out Vegeta with it when they trained earlier to remind people "Hey, this is a thing". Vegeta even notes then that the form is useless. Subtle drop to the viewer maybe?
-
Even after all of this, Trunks was still in trouble. He jumps in to defend Goku and Vegeta. You could say he only succeeded here because Zamasu was NOT expecting him to jump in, but then Trunks is pretty much on the defensive the entire time. A wounded, blinded by rage, and notably slowed down Zamasu was still putting pressure on Trunks. It isn't like Trunks jumped in and got mad and suddenly began whooping Zamasu. Zamasu takes a couple of slashes from the sword, but immediately notes that it won't work because he's immortal, harkening back, again, to the fact that he doesn't prioritize defense because of the immortality.
-
Trunks ONLY gets on the offensive and starts doing well AFTER he takes the Genki Dama (I'm calling it that until we get another explanation for what it is) into himself. So that means the tide only turned when you took Trunks' actual power and then mixed it with the power of all life on the planet, GOKU, AND VEGETA (you know, the two guys that make up Vegetto, the guy who was just curbstomping Zamasu.)
EVEN THEN, Even after ALL OF THAT, we know from a spoiler that was released in Jump that...
! Zamasu is apparently still alive in some form. It implied his physical body is gone, but he's still somehow a threat.
! The spoiler then implies that Zeno is the one who actually ends Zamasu.So, honestly, while I would also like a more concrete explanation for Trunks' jumps in power as well as what exactly that final attack was and how Trunks did it, the concept of Trunks beating Zamasu had groundwork laid to make it possible and YMMV as to whether the groundwork is enough for you, but it's there. You can still say you think it was poorly executed of anything like that, but This didn't just come entirely out of left field.
Plus, what's more, some of those answers we want may still come next week. This one ended on the cliffhanger of Trunks slicing Zamasu in half. We got NO aftermath. I'd say someone (Vegeta, Goku, Kaioshin, Mai, Bulma) saying SOMETHING about that attack is a very high possibility.
So maybe wait before we freak out and declare Super the worst thing ever?…
-
-
As per tradition with Goku/Vegeta fusion, Vegito probably would've destroyed Zamasu if not for the time limit.
-
@Cyan:
As per tradition with Goku/Vegeta fusion, Vegito probably would've destroyed Zamasu if not for the time limit.
Zamasu knew. That's why he spent so much time on long drawn out speeches about justice and morality that made no sense.
-
@Purple:
Zamasu knew. That's why he spent so much time on long drawn out speeches about justice and morality that made no sense.
!
-
I just go with sword made of energy of a a bunch of mortal makes zamasu even more unstable and as a result is incredibly effective against him.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Yeah and their Ki is obviously >>>Ki of all Planet Earth that killed Kid Buu.
Also included other planet and the world of the dead to kill Buu.
-
@Cyan:
! [qimg]http://i.imgur.com/7kzl0c3.png[/qimg]
[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/rs39aej.png[/qimg]Because there's no crying in Dragon Ball. THERE'S NO CRYING IN DRAGON BALL! No crying!
-
People want to get mad at Trunks beating Zamasu but it makes for a far better story that Trunks gets the final blow instead of Goku. Imagine if Cell ended with Goku beating him instead of Gohan. Would not nearly have been impactful enough. If people want to be mad at Super then be mad that Trunks and Vegeta's Father & Son Galick Gun was apparently not as strong as Goku's regular Kamehameha and in the end that attack amounted to nothing. That is more offensive imo.
-
If Super has taught us anything, it's that King Kai is the greatest martial artist of all time.
-
So far Zamasu's death has been underwhelming. Frieza's "death" and Cell's and Buu's deaths were much more satisfying with the blasts pushing them down, their faces contorting and them finally crumbling to pieces. Beerus's killing of Zamasu was already underwhelming. He just got turned into sparkles. Just compare that to Babidi killing Spopovich :-/
Also, what was with the subs calling Kaio-ken "King Kai Fist"? I know it's technically correct, but I don't remember the anime ever using that term.
-
He-Man Trunks was fun, but I would've liked more time with Kakageta (like 2 episodes more please?).
-
Also, what was with the subs calling Kaio-ken "King Kai Fist"? I know it's technically correct, but I don't remember the anime ever using that term.
Yeah, that's one thing that really annoys me about these subs. On one hand they're using dub-names like "King Kai" which I already consider pretty stupid… but if they were gonna do that, then it only follows that the attacks should also keep their dub-names. Like, don't go translating the attack-names that were left in Japanese in the dub, while at the same time using "Master Roshi", ffs.
-
I haven't heard "King Kai Fist" since Budokai 1.
-
@Cyan:
I haven't heard "King Kai Fist" since Budokai 1.
The Kaio/King Kai thing always irked me. The DBZ dub terminology is really wonky and makes no sense to me whatsoever. It doesn't feel like they use any real logic in it.
So, Kamehameha, Masenko, Kaioken… THOSE get left in Japanese... a few things like Genki Dama are translated fairly as "Spirit Bomb" (It's "Ball" not "Bomb" but no biggie) and then you just have the stupid things they made up out of nowhere like "Special Beam Cannon" and "Destructo Disc"....
Kaioken is one of the most annoying on multiple levels... "Kaio" means "World King", Viz translates it as "Lord of Worlds" which is cool... They HALF translate Kaio as "King Kai".... uh, ok I guess... But then the move he himself made, the KAIOken.... Gets left in Japanese... and, at least in the original Z, everyone pronounces it wrong....
Then there's the nonsensical name changes like Tenshinhan, and the random wonky spellings of names that didn't need to be given wonky spellings like Freeza and Vegetto being Frieza and Vegito.
Seriously, where the hell did they get "Vegito" from?! It's a combo of "Vegeta" and "Kakarott(o)".... Neither of those has an I in them in FUNi's dub.... where the hell does that I come from? Even when in the dub, they changed the line so Vegetto says he's mixing "Vegeta" and "Goku" instead of Kakarott, I guess to explain the O... it STILL makes no sense because "Goku" doesn't have an I in it either...grrr.... Dub names make me rant lol.
-
Why does Vegito use Goku's Saiyan name, is the real question.
Vegeku/Veku/Gogeta all sound perfectly fine.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
and then you just have the stupid things they made up out of nowhere like "Special Beam Cannon" and "Destructo Disc"….
Special Beam Cannon is actually a baller ass name for an attack and is actually pronounceable in English.
-
Vegeta got to pick the name for Vegetto.
-
@Cyan:
Special Beam Cannon is actually a baller ass name for an attack and is actually pronounceable in English.
What, no love for Piercing Demon Murder Light Gun?
-
Hellzone Grenade's Japanese name is also nowhere near as cool as "Hellzone Grenade".
What, no love for Piercing Demon Murder Light Gun?
Should've just called it the Nail Gun.
-
People want to get mad at Trunks beating Zamasu but it makes for a far better story that Trunks gets the final blow instead of Goku. Imagine if Cell ended with Goku beating him instead of Gohan. Would not nearly have been impactful enough.
The fact that Gohan got weaker after he beat Cell shows the impact of him beating Cell rung rather hollow.
So far Zamasu's death has been underwhelming. Frieza's "death"
Which one? his death in DragonBall or his death in Revivial of F/Super, since the former is more iconic than the other.
Just compare that to Babidi killing Spopovich :-/
…...Babidi blew up Spopovich, Beerus outright erased Zamasu from existence. Both are rather horrible deaths though as I remember Spopovich's death looked rather silly due to his body inflating somewhat.
and the random wonky spellings of names that didn't need to be given wonky spellings like Freeza and Vegetto being Frieza and Vegito.
Frieza I don't really mind, Vegito is bit of a pet peeve though. I'm also kind of weirded out by Broly's name having one L.
@Cyan:
Hellzone Grenade's Japanese name is also nowhere near as cool as "Hellzone Grenade".
Doesn't sound child friendly:ninja:
-
So far Zamasu's death has been underwhelming. Frieza's "death" and Cell's and Buu's deaths were much more satisfying with the blasts pushing them down, their faces contorting and them finally crumbling to pieces. Beerus's killing of Zamasu was already underwhelming. He just got turned into sparkles. Just compare that to Babidi killing Spopovich :-/
Also, what was with the subs calling Kaio-ken "King Kai Fist"? I know it's technically correct, but I don't remember the anime ever using that term.
Pretty sure Zamasu's not done just yet.
It's probably either a licensing issue Crunchyroll just wanting their audience to have a literal translation to avoid confusion. Specifically their new audience.
-
Beerus's killing of Zamasu was already underwhelming. He just got turned into sparkles.
I actually liked that Beerus is so far above Zamasu that he didn't even need a flashy attack to kill him.
-
I'm guessing that they didn't translate Kamehameha because "Turtle Destruction Wave" wouldn't lip sync properly in the anime (and screaming "Turtle Destruction Wave!" wouldn't sound as nutcrackingly awesome as "Ka- Me- Ha- Me- HA!"). I don't mind the translations for some moves like Special Beam Cannon, Kaioken/King Kai Fist, Tri-Beam (even though Tien's not shooting triangles) and the like, the only one that really grinds my gears is "Destructo Disc". That's quite possibly the dumbest name for a move yet and I'd rather have the much cooler name, "Kienzan".
-
Please use the proper translation of Kamehameha: "the very lonely one"
-
The fact that Gohan got weaker after he beat Cell shows the impact of him beating Cell rung rather hollow.
I'd say the opposite, since it let Gohan finally live the life he wanted.
Which one? his death in DragonBall or his death in Revivial of F/Super, since the former is more iconic than the other.
I'm specifically talking Goku defeating him on Namek, hence the quotation marks around death.
To be honest, I don't even remember his RoF/Super death.
…...Babidi blew up Spopovich, Beerus outright erased Zamasu from existence. Both are rather horrible deaths though as I remember Spopovich's death looked rather silly due to his body inflating somewhat.
I get that it should look different, but it looked like they just started erasing a flat image of him. I didn't like it.
Pretty sure Zamasu's not done just yet.
It's probably either a licensing issue Crunchyroll just wanting their audience to have a literal translation to avoid confusion. Specifically their new audience.
I don't think he's quite done either. That's why I said "So far" =P
I actually liked that Beerus is so far above Zamasu that he didn't even need a flashy attack to kill him.
I get that, but like I said above, I don't think it was done well.
-
After re-watching the last episode I've come to like the change in the one hour fusion time. I think it works better for story writing; however, if it was permanent I'd be fine with that too.
During the episode, when Gowasu was explaining how the potara earrings worked for non-Kais, I was wondering that if Black Goku is, in body, not a Kai and Zamasu is a Kai would that not place a one hour limitation on their fusion? Or because Black Goku has the mind of Zamasu it makes him a Kai. Just a curious thought on the new fusion rule.
The second thought that crossed my mind was if Zamasu is still alive in spirit could he be used by Zeno as the new friend to play with that Goku offhandedly mentioned during their visit?
-
Yajirobe should be the friend now that's he's lost Korin.
-
After re-watching the last episode I've come to like the change in the one hour fusion time. I think it works better for story writing; however, if it was permanent I'd be fine with that too.
During the episode, when Gowasu was explaining how the potara earrings worked for non-Kais, I was wondering that if Black Goku is, in body, not a Kai and Zamasu is a Kai would that not place a one hour limitation on their fusion? Or because Black Goku has the mind of Zamasu it makes him a Kai. Just a curious thought on the new fusion rule.
The second thought that crossed my mind was if Zamasu is still alive in spirit could he be used by Zeno as the new friend to play with that Goku offhandedly mentioned during their visit?
I think the main thing is that one Kai has to be involved - Kibito and the witch that Elder Kai fused with weren't Kais, but it was still permanent. (Barring the Dragon Balls)
-
Ok, so all the storytelling concerns regarding Trunks' power, and Black and Zamasu and time loops and everything…. I just found out something big about them...
First, I acknowledge that there are valid questions here, and some storytelling missteps on the part of Toei. I've never said they outright don't exist only that they aren't ENTIRELY out of left field and so they don't bother me.
Well, we might actually have some concrete answers to these questions...
So, as was announced from the start, Toriyama gets a Story Credit and it's generally accepted that while Toriyama doesn't write full scripts, he does give a somewhat detailed Outline to both Toei and Toyotaro. (The guy drawing the Manga) Apparently, these two sides are chosing to adapt the material differently to some extent, as there are notable differences in the stories of both of these...
Now, I didn't expect this because knowing Toei and how they typically like to pace things, I would assume they'd be milking all the available info for all its worth and wouldn't be leaving ANY scenes or info out but.... I'm gonna go ahead and say Toriyama's outline PROBABLY covers all of the stuff fans are questioning, because... the manga is behind the anime, so we don't know EVERYTHING yet, but so far it's addressing most of these questions.
I'll go over them real quick here:
(Spoiler'd. For length mostly, but someone might consider this stuff spoilers.)! Question: How Powerful is Trunks exactly at the start of the Black Arc?
! Answer:
Just About as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Vegeta flat out states that's how powerful he is, and they seem shocked/impressed that he was able to push SS2 this far without fully transforming to SS3.
It's even noted that Goku decided to go God for a split-second to beat him.
! So it appears Trunks' base power before anything is drastically higher than most were assuming. That, to some extent, makes his jumps in power seem more logical.
! It actually even shows his training with Kaioshin, he drew the Z Sword.
! Question: Why did Goku Black go to Trunks' Timeline specifically in the first place?
! Answer: Trunks explains that Kaioshin actually died during the fight with Babidi and Dabra, meaning Beers died long before Black got there.
! We also get a scene explicitly showing that Black was apparently searching for a timeline in which Beers doesn't exist.
Apparently he anticipated some resistance from Beers and wanted him out of the way in the easiest way possible.
! Question: If Goku Black was the result of Zamasu stealing Goku's body and then time traveling, and Goku only meets Zamasu thanks to their investigation of Black, doesn't that make this an unexplained paradox/time loop?
! Answer: In the Manga, our introduction to Zamasu is different. Here we meet him during a visit between the Kaioshin of Universe 10 and the Kaioshin of Universe 7, IE the Main Kaioshin we've been aware of since Boo. It starts in the middle of a friendly sparring match between Zamasu and Kibito and afterwards, They explicitly tell Zamasu about Goku. He then looks up Goku later on that "GodTube" thing.
! It's no longer a loop. He was aware of Goku either way.
! Question: What's with Trunks' power jumps? Does that Blue Glow mean he's using God Ki?
! Answer: The scene where Vegeta says he is going to train Trunks is in the Manga as well however, the manga does not even include that scene where the "Training" appears to just be Vegeta showing Trunks God Ki. No, instead we get a scene showing them explicitly training inside Vegeta's gravity room.
! Unfortunately, that's the most recent chapter of the manga that's out, and right now Goku is going to meet with Zeno. Vegeta training Trunks in that Gravity Room is the last time we have seen either Vegeta or Trunks in the Manga, so we don't know any more about this training, but the concept that Vegeta is responsible for him getting stronger is now on the table.
! Plus, It's also now possible… or even probable that Vegeta is teaching Trunks about God Ki, since we know Vegeta learned how to do it just from training with Whis, it stands to reason he can teach Trunks. It'd be perfect if the next time we see them in the manga, it gets mentioned that, like "I started to train Trunks in God Ki. He's getting the basics, but he can't quite fully use it yet".
! That would solve everything. Why he can sense Vegetto in Blue mode now, why he seems to be getting that blue glow etc.
! The only question the manga hasn't addressed yet is the Genki Dama sword, but again, we're way behind story wise so there's still plenty of time to cover that.Toei still has one episode for the resolution of everything, so I suppose they can cram all these answers in there, but this still is a pretty dumb oversight by Toei… if they HAVE the answers to these questions, why the hell aren't they USING them?!
Still, it comes off way better knowing all this.
-
Toei still has one episode for the resolution of everything, so I suppose they can cram all these answers in there, but this still is a pretty dumb oversight by Toei… if they HAVE the answers to these questions, why the hell aren't they USING them?!
It has to at least be possible that they do not in fact have the same information as the guy writing/drawing the manga. Maybe Toriyama's outline is very vague in some parts. If you compare similar scenes in both it only points to a few major points being given, several minor details being construed and the rest being left up to the developer. Possibly the manga writer is just better at filling in the parts to maintain continuity.
-
Yeah, gonna be honest, the animation has been really incredibly good at times. I've been pretty impressed with some of the stuff they've done here, especially as LordPerucho said, the Vegetto vs. Zamasu fight.
Proves Toei DOES have some great animators like Shida and CAN pull out something good when they're really trying… even if it's incredibly obvious they still cut corners and phone it in sometimes too. (Goku vs. Beers Round 1 on Kaio's planet... lol)But hey, even at its worse, at least Super never went Creepy-Derp looking like some of the scenes in Z.
! [qimg]http://i.imgur.com/EbtEnxz.jpg[/qimg][qimg]http://i.imgur.com/EiMhw3d.jpg[/qimg]
Toei Animation does have great animators. They either don't want to work on Dragon Ball Super or they don't have time to work on their normal level. Hayashi Yuuki, Tate Naoki, Higashide Futoshi (freelancer), Ootsuka Ken (freelancer), Shida Naotoshi, Oonishi Ryou, Miuma Kenji, Karasawa Yuu'ichi, and Takahashi Yuuya have worked on in-episode fights for the series. Watanabe Koudai and Hamano Yuu'ichi have both worked on the opening animation, although heavily corrected by the tyrannical Character Designer & Animation Supervisor Yamamuro Tadayoshi.
Time, folks. Dragon Ball Super isn't being made with 6+ weeks allotted for animation as is truly necessary, it's being made with half that.
-
The second thought that crossed my mind was if Zamasu is still alive in spirit could he be used by Zeno as the new friend to play with that Goku offhandedly mentioned during their visit?
Yajirobe should be the friend now that's he's lost Korin.
Knowing Goku and how he volunteers people, he'll try to make Piccolo, Vegeta, or Bulma do it.
-
Knowing Goku and how he volunteers people, he'll try to make Piccolo, Vegeta, or Bulma do it.
"Gohan, I've got a job for you."
-
@Cyan:
"Gohan, I've got a job for you."
"Hey, Chichi, I need to borrow Goten for a few… years. Later!"
-
"Hey, Chichi, I need to borrow Goten for a few… years. Later!"
"…Alright, but I want anoth-"
"That won't work this time! Bulma said you went through monopose!"
-
@Cyan:
"…Alright, but I want anoth-"
"That won't work this time! Bulma said you went through monopose!"
Sounds like something you'd catch in the JoJo verse.
-
Basically fusion dance is now useless or not?