Volume 78 Predictions/Discussion

RamistaR

Thanks Redon.
No change about Luffy's sandals ?

Matuzalem

Something new in the changed text?

uniaka ikuzakas

@Galaxy:

More pictures from Baidu:

[hide]
http://puu.sh/iKi2Y/39d418d761.jpg

[/hide]

Is that… Green bull?

KageKageKing

@uniaka:

Is that… Green bull?

He is not green.

Schabrak

Even the green bull wants to wear some red in his leasure time. It's not the first time we see that pic with someone having horns.

Ping

Someone translate Doflamingo's changed text plzzzz?

Ordinary

I wonder how often mangaka go back and edit their manga chapters for the volume release?(Togashi doesn't count, that's way different).

It always seems to happen for Oda, but does anyone else make the effort to change the dialogue? Or make these little mistakes in the art?

Chrior

I have no idea, but as long as the sandals disappear from the volume, I'll be happy. That was really a dumb mistake from Oda. Or else we missed something, but that seems unlikely.

Snir

They got rid of text!? wow.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Ordinary:

I wonder how often mangaka go back and edit their manga chapters for the volume release?(Togashi doesn't count, that's way different).

It always seems to happen for Oda, but does anyone else make the effort to change the dialogue? Or make these little mistakes in the art?

Kishimoto drew an entire double page again because his brother told him the one in the magazine looked really boring.
Mitsutoshi Shimabukuro (TORIKO) sometimes adds entire pages into the volumes.

sandman

@Ping:

Someone translate Doflamingo's changed text plzzzz?

Green text is Jump version and blue one is the volume version.

! Doflamingo: Damn that brat and his stupid rubber!!
Doflamingo: Damn that ball-like brat and his stupid rubber!!

! Citizens:He is like a ball!!
Citizens: What the heck is the ball-like guy!?

! Doflamingo: Dear me… What kind of joke is this!? Fufufufufu!
I thought you might have some secret plan…

Doflamingo: Dear me… What kind of joke is this!? Be serious!
I thought you might have some secret plan…

Luffy: This is the secret plan and I'm serious!!

Doflamingo:…
Luffy: You aren't going to stand a chance!

Doflamingo: What use is springiness…?
Luffy: Shut up! You aren't going to stand a chance!

By the way, I wonder why Oda deleted these texts…

!
!

herpdat

Those deleted excerpts were a rare glimpse into the inner workings of Doflamingo's mind–his real voice, in a manner of speaking. Maybe Oda preferred to leave it inaccessible to the reader. In other words, he'd rather the reader's only impression of Doflamingo be an external one.

Nitwit

@herpdat:

Those deleted excerpts were a rare glimpse into the inner workings of Doflamingo's mind–his real voice, in a manner of speaking. Maybe Oda preferred to leave it inaccessible to the reader. In other words, he'd rather the reader's only impression of Doflamingo be an external one.

Ha! Never thought of it that way?

Snir

Couple other things, thanks to @onepiece_kun. new writings on shirt only visible in volume.
Chinjao's head visible in volume.

volume shows rebecca's chest but crops other gladiator

Ping

@sandman:

Green text is Jump version and blue one is the volume version.

! http://i.imgur.com/JlrnHYk.jpgDoflamingo: Damn that brat and his stupid rubber!!
Doflamingo: Damn that ball-like brat and his stupid rubber!!

! http://i.imgur.com/Zn7PpdE.jpgCitizens:He is like a ball!!
Citizens: What the heck is the ball-like guy!?

! http://i.imgur.com/9HPbrrI.jpgDoflamingo: Dear me… What kind of joke is this!? Fufufufufu!
I thought you might have some secret plan…

Doflamingo: Dear me… What kind of joke is this!? Be serious!
I thought you might have some secret plan…

Luffy: This is the secret plan and I'm serious!!

Doflamingo:…
Luffy: You aren't going to stand a chance!

Doflamingo: What use is springiness…?
Luffy: Shut up! You aren't going to stand a chance!

By the way, I wonder why Oda deleted these texts…

! http://i.imgur.com/0XPuWeg.jpg
! http://i.imgur.com/sHSphPt.jpg

Awesome, thank you dude.

Ordinary

My opinion is that Doflamingo's text makes the reader pause to read whatever he's saying, and that slows down the flow. Oda nows decides that a faster paced action is more preferable to to reading about Doflamingo's confusion.

@Snir:

Couple other things, thanks to @onepiece_kun. http://i.imgur.com/igsuGBj.jpgnew writings on shirt only visible in volume.

Janain? Is that Japanese for something?

volume shows rebecca's chest but crops other gladiator

Rebecca's boobs are very important and have to be shown.

stephen

@shadyagent:

Because "charisma" is misleading for most readers since most readers see it as a syonoynm for "attractiveness or charm" but in this case the term is referring to "talent", "being excellence in a particular field" in a sense that Doflamingo is truly emboding the idea of evil- you could even pull in Max Weber's Charismatic authority to some extent if you want. It is foreigen word in japanese (Karisuma) as well so you have to check out first what Oda wanted to say. Translating is about more than just flipping through a dictionary.

Ask Stephen if you want a professional answer

Sorry for the super late answer about this (hey, I only search my name every month or so here). In short, shadyagent is correct.

In English the word "charisma" is an uncountable quality - something that people can possess, such as "charm" or "intelligence." (think of the RPG stat) Either you have it or you don't, and you possess it in a certain quantity. However, it is an abstract essence, not a tangible thing, so while a person can have charisma or be charismatic, you cannot be a charisma.

The difference with the Japanese loanword of charisma (karisuma) is that while it can use the definition I've defined above, it can also be (and is much more often) applied to refer to a person outright, i.e. Doflamingo is "a charisma." It's such a popular buzzword to use nowadays that there are TV comedians like Ariyoshi who point out the word has basically lost all meaning, because it's used on anyone and anything (particularly magazine models) even if they don't have a particularly notable personality. In that sense, it's similar to the word "celebrity." It doesn't mean that someone necessarily has an arresting and charming personality, but they do attract lots of attention (and it can still certainly be both of those things).

So with that in mind, it's ungrammatical and awkward to call Doflamingo a "Charisma of Evil" in English - you might say he has an "evil charisma" or is "charismatically evil," but it doesn't work as an actual title. I settled on Champion of Evil because that was the closest approximation I liked that summed up his embodiment of evil (to "champion a cause") and the singular nature of it (not a follower but a leader).

Game And Guy

My (japanese) friend has actually explained that to me once. He's called someone カリスマ many a times, which got me confused. He explained and it to me saying how it was a colloquialism, and I said it sounded stupid, then he pointed out that a few seconds ago I just said "Dude, bruh, that's fucking filthy" (meaning cool). Champion of Evil sounds about the best translation, in my opinion, yeah. There's not exactly a synonym for "celebrity" that sounds evil and badass at the same time.

Daz

@herpdat:

Tashigi's character arc is far from over. In Alabasta, Tashigi did nothing; she was stationary and could only point the way for Luffy. In Punk Hazard, we see that she has a new, incredible sense of resolve and responsibility. She attacks Law, Vergo, and Monet without hesitation. When Vergo attacks her and her unit, she pleas for Smoker's presence as any marine would. Tashigi is not stupid, she knows she is no match for any of these people, but she never reverts to the same helpless, action-less state that she found herself in at Alabasta.

Law's line on the weak and death along with her own reflections on her still-lacking capability to deal with strong opponents should only strengthen her already established resolve.

As for her "handed" victory over Monet, this came from Tashigi's own misguided prejudice against Zoro, who she believes looks down on women's fighting ability. Zoro, however, looks down on those weaker than him, men included. Zoro would rather not fight against weaker opponents, which explains his hesitance at attacking Monet in the first place. When Zoro decides to prove this point by attacking Monet after all, Tashigi learns all of this. After, she complains that he didn't truly kill Monet, but Zoro is not a killer, less so the more time he's spent as a Straw Hat. This "handed" victory served less as a "lol Tashigi's still weak" (which she is) moment and more as a "Tashigi is learning more on her way to being strong" moment.

Nothing wrong with Tashigi in Punk Hazard. Fans of her character, if anything, should only expect greater things from her in the future. Post-Punk Hazard, Tashigi will jump to less conclusions, focus on her training even more, and rely on Smoker less given everything she learned.

@RamistaR:

Ok maybe you didn't like what she got to do in this arc. I can totally understand that.
But I don't see what is stereotypical or badly written about her. Tashigi is a very well defined character and she does nothing out of character.
During this arc, Oda treated her with more care than many of the strawhats.
Again you might not like how he portrayed Tashigi, but one thing is certain, Oda does give a fuck about this character.

Regarding Tashigi, I think you guys might have the wrong perspective on why people are upset at her role in Punk Hazard, at least speaking for myself.
WARNING: MEGA POST ON TASHIGI AND REBECCA AHEAD, MIGHT AS WELL PUT THIS THING HERE since the “Women in OP” THREAD IS CLOSED

About Tashigi at Punk Hazard
[HIDE]
Its not that Tashigi acted particularly out of character, or that her misfortunes didn’t “make sense” in story; it’s the deliberate decisions of Oda to put her through those misfortunes. Like Supernova122 once said:

@Supernova122:

Remember, everything that happens, Oda chose to make happen. Any clash of characters, Oda chose to make happen. You can't say "Oh, everyone she fought does appear to be too strong for her, so she couldn't have beaten them!" . . . Because, of course, Oda didn't need to make her opponents out to be too strong for her. Oda didn't need to exclusively put her up against people who she couldn't beat. So rather than rave about power levels, think about the actual point.

Oda deliberately chose to not throw Tashigi any bones that arc. There were no “wins” for her character, no personal high points, only losses, and I’m not talking just about battles.
Lets go through Tashigis moments in the arc in pain-staking detail, and look at them in terms oft heir purpose from the perspective of Oda, the writer: Why were they there? Why did they happen this particular way?

Tashigi charges Law, gets instantly defeated, and called out as weak with a dramatic one liner from Law; then she gets saved in the nick of time by Smoker. You might analyze that the purpose of this is to have her realize how weak she still is, and how she still needs to train etc, but that’s mostly reader-based theorizing rather than supported by the actual story; theres no introspection of Tashigi on this later on, no little moment to give this defeat the context of a wake-up call. Besides, if it was, that raises the issue of it being very redundant, considering she already vowed to get stronger once. A much simpler reason for the scene from Odas perspective: it makes Law look cool, and Smoker look cool by doing a Last Minute Rescue, setting up his fight with Cool Badass one-liner Law in an exciting way. At any rate, the net outcome is that Tashigi suffers an absolute defeat, complete with patronizing one-liner from the opponent, and has to be saved.
After Smoker is down, Tashigi jumps Law again, gets defeated instantly through body swap, cue one liner from Law. Rinse repeat as above; G5 even goes “that’s the second time in a row!”. This also serves to set up:
Tashigis body is shown off following the body swap with Smoker, and the first thing she does after getting it back is to try and cover up out of embarrassment. This is of course done because Comedy! Net result for Tashigi: Fun is made at her expense, by way of showing off her boobs without her consent.
Tashigi is saved from Shinokuni by G5 marines sacrificing themselves, because shes their sweet cutie pie Captain-chan. This is done to humanize G5, and to create a dramatic moment that also appears to heighten the stakes. The tool for this is putting Tashigi in a situation where she needs to be saved, and her being saved is reliant on her gender.
Tashigi charges Vergo, gets instantly beaten, cries and wishes Smoker was there, and then Sanji swoops in to save her because “he heard the tears of a lady”. Again, the purpose is; villain is made to look threatening in a dramatic fashion, and setting up a cool entrance for Sanji, to set up their brief clash in an exciting way. Outcome for Tashigi: easily beaten, wishes for help, gets bailed out.
Zoro allows Tashigi to try and fight Monet on her own, Tashigi can’t cope, and Zoro then defeats Monet through his sheer musky manliness. Build up villain, make savior look cool etc; I don’t think I need to elaborate on how this shows on Tashigis “win/loss” report.
Zoro carries Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment. This is done because Comedy! and involves Zoro carrying Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment

So in short, Tashigi spent Punk Hazard losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. Which you can all easily rationalize in-story (Her opponents were stronger, that’s just Smokers personality etc), but doesn’t change that all Oda decided to write for Tashigi this arc was losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. She was used as a tool to make others look more sympathetic or cool or threatening- but where are the moments where Oda lets Tashigi be cool? What wins did she get? And I’m talking as framed in the manga, and beyond just her having intentions of doing something.
This is what it looks like when the manga actually lets Tashigi have a “cool Tashigi moment” (Side note: no, she did not “do nothing” at Alabasta; at most she tried and failed against Robin, much like she tried and failed at PH):
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/204/20
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/206/2
That^ is Oda consciously giving Tashigi a “win”, and it is a world of difference from us readers going “I thought it was very cool how Tashigi tried her best to make a contribution, and she did well to not die against her opponents, I’m sure she will get to have some actual successes next time” and being satisfied with that as a “win” for the character.
The single bone thrown to Tashigi on PH is Nami calling her a nice person, which is about as token a “Win” as you can get in a shonen manga. Naruto, you’re an incredible ninja-genius who has overcome adversity, has techniques out the wazoo, and accomplishes miracles! Sakura you’re…a kind girl, who tries hard.

And this is Tashigis first major appearance since an arc that concluded with her vowing to get stronger. This should be where we see that she has gotten stronger – through actual on-screen “wins” for the character, and not just implied by rank increase or the fact that “she is in the new world without dying instantly = stronger”. This should be a time for payoffs to that earlier promise, not a new “maybe next time!” promise…but even that promise is not made in the manga. The scene of Tashigi going “goddammit, I want to contribute more than I did at Punk Hazard, so I need to get even strongerer!” does not exist, except in the heads of readers. You can try and say that its self evident, that its unneeded to actually show in the story, but its crucial if you want to say that this was Odas intent for the character. If Oda wanted to make a point of “Tashigi then realized she needed even more training”, he’d have included a scene of Tashigi realizing she needed more training. That he doesn’t have this moment to offset all her losses speaks volumes, and is a part of the problem at least I have with her this arc.
[/HIDE]

About Rebecca
[Hide]
A lot of the same issues Tashigi had have faced Rebecca: she keeps voicing her desire to contribute, and actively tries to contribute, yet she has nothing to show for it but a string of failures from which she needed to be saved. You can explain why she fails in-story, but the problem is that the purpose of Rebecca is to fail. “Look readers, the cute kind Rebecca is in trouble and is sad. Poor Rebecca! Feel sorry for her, readers. Look, character X saved poor Rebecca in the nick of time in a cool way. Character X is cool, right readers?”

Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look how evil this guy is for tormenting Rebecca.
Look at Rebeccas smexy outfit!
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look at how cool X is for saving Rebecca in the nick of time.

That’s whats so frustrating about her character; not the fact that she fails, but how and why she fails. Rebecca has no successes, no real triumphs to offset her failures, because her purpose is to fail_,_ in order to enable other characters to be sympathetic or cool, by helping poor Rebecca and solving her problems.

[/Hide]

kouch_lee

@Daz:

Regarding Tashigi, I think you guys might have the wrong perspective on why people are upset at her role in Punk Hazard, at least speaking for myself.
WARNING: MEGA POST ON TASHIGI AND REBECCA AHEAD, MIGHT AS WELL PUT THIS THING HERE since the “Women in OP” THREAD IS CLOSED

About Tashigi at Punk Hazard
[HIDE]
Its not that Tashigi acted particularly out of character, or that her misfortunes didn’t “make sense” in story; it’s the deliberate decisions of Oda to put her through those misfortunes. Like Supernova122 once said:

Oda deliberately chose to not throw Tashigi any bones that arc. There were no “wins” for her character, no personal high points, only losses, and I’m not talking just about battles.
Lets go through Tashigis moments in the arc in pain-staking detail, and look at them in terms oft heir purpose from the perspective of Oda, the writer: Why were they there? Why did they happen this particular way?

Tashigi charges Law, gets instantly defeated, and called out as weak with a dramatic one liner from Law; then she gets saved in the nick of time by Smoker. You might analyze that the purpose of this is to have her realize how weak she still is, and how she still needs to train etc, but that’s mostly reader-based theorizing rather than supported by the actual story; theres no introspection of Tashigi on this later on, no little moment to give this defeat the context of a wake-up call. Besides, if it was, that raises the issue of it being very redundant, considering she already vowed to get stronger once. A much simpler reason for the scene from Odas perspective: it makes Law look cool, and Smoker look cool by doing a Last Minute Rescue, setting up his fight with Cool Badass one-liner Law in an exciting way. At any rate, the net outcome is that Tashigi suffers an absolute defeat, complete with patronizing one-liner from the opponent, and has to be saved.

After Smoker is down, Tashigi jumps Law again, gets defeated instantly through body swap, cue one liner from Law. Rinse repeat as above; G5 even goes “that’s the second time in a row!”. This also serves to set up:

Tashigis body is shown off following the body swap with Smoker, and the first thing she does after getting it back is to try and cover up out of embarrassment. This is of course done because Comedy! Net result for Tashigi: Fun is made at her expense, by way of showing off her boobs without her consent.

Tashigi is saved from Shinokuni by G5 marines sacrificing themselves, because shes their sweet cutie pie Captain-chan. This is done to humanize G5, and to create a dramatic moment that also appears to heighten the stakes. The tool for this is putting Tashigi in a situation where she needs to be saved, and her being saved is reliant on her gender.

Tashigi charges Vergo, gets instantly beaten, cries and wishes Smoker was there, and then Sanji swoops in to save her because “he heard the tears of a lady”. Again, the purpose is; villain is made to look threatening in a dramatic fashion, and setting up a cool entrance for Sanji, to set up their brief clash in an exciting way. Outcome for Tashigi: easily beaten, wishes for help, gets bailed out.

Zoro allows Tashigi to try and fight Monet on her own, Tashigi can’t cope, and Zoro then defeats Monet through his sheer musky manliness. Build up villain, make savior look cool etc; I don’t think I need to elaborate on how this shows on Tashigis “win/loss” report.

Zoro carries Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment. This is done because Comedy! and involves Zoro carrying Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment

So in short, Tashigi spent Punk Hazard losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. Which you can all easily rationalize in-story (Her opponents were stronger, that’s just Smokers personality etc), but doesn’t change that all Oda decided to write for Tashigi this arc was losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. She was used as a tool to make others look more sympathetic or cool or threatening- but where are the moments where Oda lets Tashigi be cool? What wins did she get? And I’m talking as framed in the manga, and beyond just her having intentions of doing something.
This is what it looks like when the manga actually lets Tashigi have a “cool Tashigi moment” (Side note: no, she did not “do nothing” at Alabasta; at most she tried and failed against Robin, much like she tried and failed at PH):
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/204/20
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/206/2
That^ is Oda consciously giving Tashigi a “win”, and it is a world of difference from us readers going “I thought it was very cool how Tashigi tried her best to make a contribution, and she did well to not die against her opponents, I’m sure she will get to have some actual successes next time” and being satisfied with that as a “win” for the character.
The single bone thrown to Tashigi on PH is Nami calling her a nice person, which is about as token a “Win” as you can get in a shonen manga. Naruto, you’re an incredible ninja-genius who has overcome adversity, has techniques out the wazoo, and accomplishes miracles! Sakura you’re…a kind girl, who tries hard.

And this is Tashigis first major appearance since an arc that concluded with her vowing to get stronger. This should be where we see that she has gotten stronger – through actual on-screen “wins” for the character, and not just implied by rank increase or the fact that “she is in the new world without dying instantly = stronger”. This should be a time for payoffs to that earlier promise, not a new “maybe next time!” promise…but even that promise is not made in the manga. The scene of Tashigi going “goddammit, I want to contribute more than I did at Punk Hazard, so I need to get even strongerer!” does not exist, except in the heads of readers. You can try and say that its self evident, that its unneeded to actually show in the story, but its crucial if you want to say that this was Odas intent for the character. If Oda wanted to make a point of “Tashigi then realized she needed even more training”, he’d have included a scene of Tashigi realizing she needed more training. That he doesn’t have this moment to offset all her losses speaks volumes, and is a part of the problem at least I have with her this arc.
[/HIDE]

About Rebecca
[Hide]
A lot of the same issues Tashigi had have faced Rebecca: she keeps voicing her desire to contribute, and actively tries to contribute, yet she has nothing to show for it but a string of failures from which she needed to be saved. You can explain why she fails in-story, but the problem is that the purpose of Rebecca is to fail. “Look readers, the cute kind Rebecca is in trouble and is sad. Poor Rebecca! Feel sorry for her, readers. Look, character X saved poor Rebecca in the nick of time in a cool way. Character X is cool, right readers?”
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look how evil this guy is for tormenting Rebecca.
Look at Rebeccas smexy outfit!
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look at how cool X is for saving Rebecca in the nick of time.

That’s whats so frustrating about her character; not the fact that she fails, but how and why she fails. Rebecca has no successes, no real triumphs to offset her failures, because her purpose is to fail_,_ in order to enable other characters to be sympathetic or cool, by helping poor Rebecca and solving her problems.

[/Hide]

Your analytical skills are great, and I agree with all you said. Except: Rebecca, unlike Tashigi's PH run, was allowed to have some sort of wins before it all went down the drain, and it's part of the reason why her downward spiral hurts so much, because there's was something akin to "hope" thrown her way. Her fighting at the start of block D was pretty good, and her being the only survivor of Hakuba's onslaught and being aknowledged for it by Our Lord and Saviour Sabo was supposed to tell us "hey, she doesn't suck; actually, in her own way, she's kinda cool!". It was even made kind of a point that mostly everyone thought it was pure luck yet Fight Analyst Sabo saw the truth of her performance. Promise!

Everything else, as I said, totally agree.

Game And Guy

Rebecca is a poor man's Vivi.

y2kyle89

Oda writes Rebecca -> Japan loses the Women's World Cup

Coincidence?

Smiley

just saw the mother's and adventure thing… Ouch.

Kizuchan

@Daz:

About Tashigi at Punk Hazard
[HIDE]
Its not that Tashigi acted particularly out of character, or that her misfortunes didn’t “make sense” in story; it’s the deliberate decisions of Oda to put her through those misfortunes. Like Supernova122 once said:

Oda deliberately chose to not throw Tashigi any bones that arc. There were no “wins” for her character, no personal high points, only losses, and I’m not talking just about battles.
Lets go through Tashigis moments in the arc in pain-staking detail, and look at them in terms oft heir purpose from the perspective of Oda, the writer: Why were they there? Why did they happen this particular way?

Tashigi charges Law, gets instantly defeated, and called out as weak with a dramatic one liner from Law; then she gets saved in the nick of time by Smoker. You might analyze that the purpose of this is to have her realize how weak she still is, and how she still needs to train etc, but that’s mostly reader-based theorizing rather than supported by the actual story; theres no introspection of Tashigi on this later on, no little moment to give this defeat the context of a wake-up call. Besides, if it was, that raises the issue of it being very redundant, considering she already vowed to get stronger once. A much simpler reason for the scene from Odas perspective: it makes Law look cool, and Smoker look cool by doing a Last Minute Rescue, setting up his fight with Cool Badass one-liner Law in an exciting way. At any rate, the net outcome is that Tashigi suffers an absolute defeat, complete with patronizing one-liner from the opponent, and has to be saved.

After Smoker is down, Tashigi jumps Law again, gets defeated instantly through body swap, cue one liner from Law. Rinse repeat as above; G5 even goes “that’s the second time in a row!”. This also serves to set up:

Tashigis body is shown off following the body swap with Smoker, and the first thing she does after getting it back is to try and cover up out of embarrassment. This is of course done because Comedy! Net result for Tashigi: Fun is made at her expense, by way of showing off her boobs without her consent.

Tashigi is saved from Shinokuni by G5 marines sacrificing themselves, because shes their sweet cutie pie Captain-chan. This is done to humanize G5, and to create a dramatic moment that also appears to heighten the stakes. The tool for this is putting Tashigi in a situation where she needs to be saved, and her being saved is reliant on her gender.

Tashigi charges Vergo, gets instantly beaten, cries and wishes Smoker was there, and then Sanji swoops in to save her because “he heard the tears of a lady”. Again, the purpose is; villain is made to look threatening in a dramatic fashion, and setting up a cool entrance for Sanji, to set up their brief clash in an exciting way. Outcome for Tashigi: easily beaten, wishes for help, gets bailed out.

Zoro allows Tashigi to try and fight Monet on her own, Tashigi can’t cope, and Zoro then defeats Monet through his sheer musky manliness. Build up villain, make savior look cool etc; I don’t think I need to elaborate on how this shows on Tashigis “win/loss” report.

Zoro carries Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment. This is done because Comedy! and involves Zoro carrying Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment

So in short, Tashigi spent Punk Hazard losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. Which you can all easily rationalize in-story (Her opponents were stronger, that’s just Smokers personality etc), but doesn’t change that all Oda decided to write for Tashigi this arc was losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. She was used as a tool to make others look more sympathetic or cool or threatening- but where are the moments where Oda lets Tashigi be cool? What wins did she get? And I’m talking as framed in the manga, and beyond just her having intentions of doing something.
This is what it looks like when the manga actually lets Tashigi have a “cool Tashigi moment” (Side note: no, she did not “do nothing” at Alabasta; at most she tried and failed against Robin, much like she tried and failed at PH):
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/204/20
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/206/2
That^ is Oda consciously giving Tashigi a “win”, and it is a world of difference from us readers going “I thought it was very cool how Tashigi tried her best to make a contribution, and she did well to not die against her opponents, I’m sure she will get to have some actual successes next time” and being satisfied with that as a “win” for the character.
The single bone thrown to Tashigi on PH is Nami calling her a nice person, which is about as token a “Win” as you can get in a shonen manga. Naruto, you’re an incredible ninja-genius who has overcome adversity, has techniques out the wazoo, and accomplishes miracles! Sakura you’re…a kind girl, who tries hard.

And this is Tashigis first major appearance since an arc that concluded with her vowing to get stronger. This should be where we see that she has gotten stronger – through actual on-screen “wins” for the character, and not just implied by rank increase or the fact that “she is in the new world without dying instantly = stronger”. This should be a time for payoffs to that earlier promise, not a new “maybe next time!” promise…but even that promise is not made in the manga. The scene of Tashigi going “goddammit, I want to contribute more than I did at Punk Hazard, so I need to get even strongerer!” does not exist, except in the heads of readers. You can try and say that its self evident, that its unneeded to actually show in the story, but its crucial if you want to say that this was Odas intent for the character. If Oda wanted to make a point of “Tashigi then realized she needed even more training”, he’d have included a scene of Tashigi realizing she needed more training. That he doesn’t have this moment to offset all her losses speaks volumes, and is a part of the problem at least I have with her this arc.
[/HIDE]

About Rebecca
[Hide]
A lot of the same issues Tashigi had have faced Rebecca: she keeps voicing her desire to contribute, and actively tries to contribute, yet she has nothing to show for it but a string of failures from which she needed to be saved. You can explain why she fails in-story, but the problem is that the purpose of Rebecca is to fail. “Look readers, the cute kind Rebecca is in trouble and is sad. Poor Rebecca! Feel sorry for her, readers. Look, character X saved poor Rebecca in the nick of time in a cool way. Character X is cool, right readers?”
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look how evil this guy is for tormenting Rebecca.
Look at Rebeccas smexy outfit!
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look at how cool X is for saving Rebecca in the nick of time.

That’s whats so frustrating about her character; not the fact that she fails, but how and why she fails. Rebecca has no successes, no real triumphs to offset her failures, because her purpose is to fail_,_ in order to enable other characters to be sympathetic or cool, by helping poor Rebecca and solving her problems.

[/Hide]

This. This so much. It doesn't matter what other reasons "seem" to be when they aren't actually touched upon in the story. Hayato tries to argue about the Haki thing, but that is not what the obvious intention is with these two characters and really, most other female characters in this series. You know, this was the undercurrent for Nami's and Robin's stories, too. The "Please, help me!" from Nami and "I want to live!" from Robin. It was to make the other Strawhats look awesome. Look at these guys, they're helping these girls who have suffered so much! But there was more to them than that. They got their own victories.

RamistaR

So Rebecca and Tashigi's behavior in both arcs highlight the exact same flaw in Oda's writing. Sorry but I don't see where that comes from.
While you are free to dislike what Oda did with Tashigi, it has nothing to do with his skills as a writer.
Tashigi's case is miles away from Rebecca's. Using the two in the same rant seems very wrong IMO.

Zar

@Daz:

Regarding Tashigi, I think you guys might have the wrong perspective on why people are upset at her role in Punk Hazard, at least speaking for myself.
WARNING: MEGA POST ON TASHIGI AND REBECCA AHEAD, MIGHT AS WELL PUT THIS THING HERE since the “Women in OP” THREAD IS CLOSED

About Tashigi at Punk Hazard
[HIDE]
Its not that Tashigi acted particularly out of character, or that her misfortunes didn’t “make sense” in story; it’s the deliberate decisions of Oda to put her through those misfortunes. Like Supernova122 once said:

Oda deliberately chose to not throw Tashigi any bones that arc. There were no “wins” for her character, no personal high points, only losses, and I’m not talking just about battles.
Lets go through Tashigis moments in the arc in pain-staking detail, and look at them in terms oft heir purpose from the perspective of Oda, the writer: Why were they there? Why did they happen this particular way?

Tashigi charges Law, gets instantly defeated, and called out as weak with a dramatic one liner from Law; then she gets saved in the nick of time by Smoker. You might analyze that the purpose of this is to have her realize how weak she still is, and how she still needs to train etc, but that’s mostly reader-based theorizing rather than supported by the actual story; theres no introspection of Tashigi on this later on, no little moment to give this defeat the context of a wake-up call. Besides, if it was, that raises the issue of it being very redundant, considering she already vowed to get stronger once. A much simpler reason for the scene from Odas perspective: it makes Law look cool, and Smoker look cool by doing a Last Minute Rescue, setting up his fight with Cool Badass one-liner Law in an exciting way. At any rate, the net outcome is that Tashigi suffers an absolute defeat, complete with patronizing one-liner from the opponent, and has to be saved.

After Smoker is down, Tashigi jumps Law again, gets defeated instantly through body swap, cue one liner from Law. Rinse repeat as above; G5 even goes “that’s the second time in a row!”. This also serves to set up:

Tashigis body is shown off following the body swap with Smoker, and the first thing she does after getting it back is to try and cover up out of embarrassment. This is of course done because Comedy! Net result for Tashigi: Fun is made at her expense, by way of showing off her boobs without her consent.

Tashigi is saved from Shinokuni by G5 marines sacrificing themselves, because shes their sweet cutie pie Captain-chan. This is done to humanize G5, and to create a dramatic moment that also appears to heighten the stakes. The tool for this is putting Tashigi in a situation where she needs to be saved, and her being saved is reliant on her gender.

Tashigi charges Vergo, gets instantly beaten, cries and wishes Smoker was there, and then Sanji swoops in to save her because “he heard the tears of a lady”. Again, the purpose is; villain is made to look threatening in a dramatic fashion, and setting up a cool entrance for Sanji, to set up their brief clash in an exciting way. Outcome for Tashigi: easily beaten, wishes for help, gets bailed out.

Zoro allows Tashigi to try and fight Monet on her own, Tashigi can’t cope, and Zoro then defeats Monet through his sheer musky manliness. Build up villain, make savior look cool etc; I don’t think I need to elaborate on how this shows on Tashigis “win/loss” report.

Zoro carries Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment. This is done because Comedy! and involves Zoro carrying Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment

So in short, Tashigi spent Punk Hazard losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. Which you can all easily rationalize in-story (Her opponents were stronger, that’s just Smokers personality etc), but doesn’t change that all Oda decided to write for Tashigi this arc was losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. She was used as a tool to make others look more sympathetic or cool or threatening- but where are the moments where Oda lets Tashigi be cool? What wins did she get? And I’m talking as framed in the manga, and beyond just her having intentions of doing something.
This is what it looks like when the manga actually lets Tashigi have a “cool Tashigi moment” (Side note: no, she did not “do nothing” at Alabasta; at most she tried and failed against Robin, much like she tried and failed at PH):
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/204/20
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/206/2
That^ is Oda consciously giving Tashigi a “win”, and it is a world of difference from us readers going “I thought it was very cool how Tashigi tried her best to make a contribution, and she did well to not die against her opponents, I’m sure she will get to have some actual successes next time” and being satisfied with that as a “win” for the character.
The single bone thrown to Tashigi on PH is Nami calling her a nice person, which is about as token a “Win” as you can get in a shonen manga. Naruto, you’re an incredible ninja-genius who has overcome adversity, has techniques out the wazoo, and accomplishes miracles! Sakura you’re…a kind girl, who tries hard.

And this is Tashigis first major appearance since an arc that concluded with her vowing to get stronger. This should be where we see that she has gotten stronger – through actual on-screen “wins” for the character, and not just implied by rank increase or the fact that “she is in the new world without dying instantly = stronger”. This should be a time for payoffs to that earlier promise, not a new “maybe next time!” promise…but even that promise is not made in the manga. The scene of Tashigi going “goddammit, I want to contribute more than I did at Punk Hazard, so I need to get even strongerer!” does not exist, except in the heads of readers. You can try and say that its self evident, that its unneeded to actually show in the story, but its crucial if you want to say that this was Odas intent for the character. If Oda wanted to make a point of “Tashigi then realized she needed even more training”, he’d have included a scene of Tashigi realizing she needed more training. That he doesn’t have this moment to offset all her losses speaks volumes, and is a part of the problem at least I have with her this arc.
[/HIDE]

About Rebecca
[Hide]
A lot of the same issues Tashigi had have faced Rebecca: she keeps voicing her desire to contribute, and actively tries to contribute, yet she has nothing to show for it but a string of failures from which she needed to be saved. You can explain why she fails in-story, but the problem is that the purpose of Rebecca is to fail. “Look readers, the cute kind Rebecca is in trouble and is sad. Poor Rebecca! Feel sorry for her, readers. Look, character X saved poor Rebecca in the nick of time in a cool way. Character X is cool, right readers?”
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look how evil this guy is for tormenting Rebecca.
Look at Rebeccas smexy outfit!
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look at how cool X is for saving Rebecca in the nick of time.

That’s whats so frustrating about her character; not the fact that she fails, but how and why she fails. Rebecca has no successes, no real triumphs to offset her failures, because her purpose is to fail_,_ in order to enable other characters to be sympathetic or cool, by helping poor Rebecca and solving her problems.

[/Hide]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! This explains it really well.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Kizuchan:

This. This so much. It doesn't matter what other reasons "seem" to be when they aren't actually touched upon in the story. Hayato tries to argue about the Haki thing, but that is not what the obvious intention is with these two characters and really, most other female characters in this series. You know, this was the undercurrent for Nami's and Robin's stories, too. The "Please, help me!" from Nami and "I want to live!" from Robin. It was to make the other Strawhats look awesome. Look at these guys, they're helping these girls who have suffered so much! But there was more to them than that. They got their own victories.

Nami and Robin's arcs are certainly interesting to explore from this angle. Personally I felt their getting saved moments, while questionable that it happens to only the girls and all the crew's girls, were done right. Both because there were other factors to outweigh the moments but also because at least it made sense. These rescues had been built up for several arcs, and during these arcs both Robin and Nami got plenty of action and moments. We learned to love those characters, so when they suddenly disappeared and seemingly betrayed the SHs we wanted to know why, and when we knew why we felt sorry for them, and when they were saved we felt relieved. There's nothing wrong in that. Plus Robin got revenge on Spandam, which was immensely satisfying.

But when you have one character who vowed to get stronger, and another who cried and yelled that she was tired of being protected, and then both end up having to be protected and saved over and over and over and over, and they take nothing from that like it was an everyday occurrence, it's a problem. Especially when one of them had the title "The Undefeated Woman"

I guess it boils down to character development and story. Both Robin and Nami gained something after their rescues and developed as characters, and it had a clear purpose in the story. Tashigi and Rebecca got nowhere, and the story got nowhere. Not to mention Robin and Nami didn't have to be rescued a bazillion times during their individual arcs.

Game And Guy

I give Oda a pass for Rebecca. The characters like her in the past have been good (e.g. Vivi, Conis, even Shirahoshi and such), so one really poorly made character in a 15-16 year run isn't enough to bother me too much.

_Hayato

@Kizuchan:

This. This so much. It doesn't matter what other reasons "seem" to be when they aren't actually touched upon in the story. Hayato tries to argue about the Haki thing, but that is not what the obvious intention is with these two characters and really, most other female characters in this series. You know, this was the undercurrent for Nami's and Robin's stories, too. The "Please, help me!" from Nami and "I want to live!" from Robin. It was to make the other Strawhats look awesome. Look at these guys, they're helping these girls who have suffered so much! But there was more to them than that. They got their own victories.

Oh my. I'll try to argue on my own points please. Honestly, it would have been better off if you cp'd all of the things I've said instead. I guess I gotta reply to [Daz]'s main post now. I would just like for it to go on record that I've already stated on my thread you're free to see the series on your own way, just that there are only things you can explain in the terms of spirituality in the series.

@Daz:

Regarding Tashigi, I think you guys might have the wrong perspective on why people are upset at her role in Punk Hazard, at least speaking for myself.
WARNING: MEGA POST ON TASHIGI AND REBECCA AHEAD, MIGHT AS WELL PUT THIS THING HERE since the “Women in OP” THREAD IS CLOSED

About Tashigi at Punk Hazard

Its not that Tashigi acted particularly out of character, or that her misfortunes didn’t “make sense” in story; it’s the deliberate decisions of Oda to put her through those misfortunes. Like Supernova122 once said:

Oda deliberately chose to not throw Tashigi any bones that arc. There were no “wins” for her character, no personal high points, only losses, and I’m not talking just about battles.
Lets go through Tashigis moments in the arc in pain-staking detail, and look at them in terms oft heir purpose from the perspective of Oda, the writer: Why were they there? Why did they happen this particular way?

This is already a low point to start with. Characters feel the way that they do because they're not forced by the author. Characters moving on their own inside his head, not clear enough? Characters own motivations, own flaws resulting in their own development, feeling like they actually exist, no praise/respect for that? [hide][/hide] That "pride" could stem from his Kishido (Chivalry) or similarly to how Hancock's "pride" in her beauty failing to work on Luffy being "defeated", relates to his Ki and Haki. I seriously hope that makes sense.. like in other words, when it comes to women, Sanji has a strong resolve to not kick them that stems from the pride he has as a man. To explain this in terms of Ki and Haki, when two people with Haki clash their Ki also clashes, keep in mind Haki is also a balance between the two fighter's 'drive' - their feelings and emotions, will and intentions, spirit (their Ki) or in other words determination, pride stemming from their own resolve, dream, ambition etc. SO Sanji not being able to kick women is not a "choice" in the loose sense as it's a part of his own motivation and resolve - to protect (he is the shield after all). Though in Sanji's case post-timeskip, since emotions is his usual power-up and Hell seems to be a condition for him, I wouldn't be surprised if it's gonna get a lot worse for him to get stronger. Real sorry I got off-topic.

Tashigi charges Law, gets instantly defeated, and called out as weak with a dramatic one liner from Law; then she gets saved in the nick of time by Smoker. You might analyze that the purpose of this is to have her realize how weak she still is, and how she still needs to train etc, but that’s mostly reader-based theorizing rather than supported by the actual story; theres no introspection of Tashigi on this later on, no little moment to give this defeat the context of a wake-up call. Besides, if it was, that raises the issue of it being very redundant, considering she already vowed to get stronger once. A much simpler reason for the scene from Odas perspective: it makes Law look cool, and Smoker look cool by doing a Last Minute Rescue, setting up his fight with Cool Badass one-liner Law in an exciting way. At any rate, the net outcome is that Tashigi suffers an absolute defeat, complete with patronizing one-liner from the opponent, and has to be saved.

Can I ask you something? Was Tashigi the only one who looked "bad" in Punk Hazard? Did Smoke- no, did the whole G-5 not look "bad"? It's true Tashigi definitely got stronger, though I think the whole line at the end that she stated sums it up and gives you your context, something along the lines of "How much stronger have they become?" - not to mention her expression cutting Monet.

After Smoker is down, Tashigi jumps Law again, gets defeated instantly through body swap, cue one liner from Law. Rinse repeat as above; G5 even goes “that’s the second time in a row!”. This also serves to set up:

Tashigis body is shown off following the body swap with Smoker, and the first thing she does after getting it back is to try and cover up out of embarrassment. This is of course done because Comedy! Net result for Tashigi: Fun is made at her expense, by way of showing off her boobs without her consent.

I will never argue nor defend fanservice. Tashigi is rash though, remember Mihawk's phrase? "If you're a competent swordsman by any means then I can demonstrate the clear difference in strength between you and I, without needing to cross blades at all. But still, you dare to challenge me. Does your bravery come from your conviction..? or from ignorance..?" So take that as how you will however it was clearly already stated that women have more challenges against them if they choose the path of the sword in Kuina (even the meaning to Kuina's name have relevancy to how Oda decided to portray that). You also forgot to include in the fact that Smoker told her not to confront and fall back, that her Haki isn't up to par to Law's ability.

Tashigi is saved from Shinokuni by G5 marines sacrificing themselves, because shes their sweet cutie pie Captain-chan. This is done to humanize G5, and to create a dramatic moment that also appears to heighten the stakes. The tool for this is putting Tashigi in a situation where she needs to be saved, and her being saved is reliant on her gender.

Hmm definitely can't be just a nickname that a known group of uncouth men gave her? That despite her being a cute woman, she's respected as a superior? I mean they also needed to report to HQ and it served to heighten Vergo's reveal, as well.

Tashigi charges Vergo, gets instantly beaten, cries and wishes Smoker was there, and then Sanji swoops in to save her because “he heard the tears of a lady”. Again, the purpose is; villain is made to look threatening in a dramatic fashion, and setting up a cool entrance for Sanji, to set up their brief clash in an exciting way. Outcome for Tashigi: easily beaten, wishes for help, gets bailed out

And this would be the start of the hate and the 'totally not fully understood' portrayal for the most part. Before Vergo was shown, they were attacked by a Dragon, did Tashigi seemed to care about the Dragon? Nope. After which Vergo shows himself, Tashigi fearing for her men's safety was in quite a bind. How to tell them that their respected superior is on the enemies side? How to order them to run without an explanation? The flashbacks of G-5's respect towards Vergo as well as his 'shady-ness' was shown whilst of course Vergo was killing them and Tashigi obviously and understandably distraught charges towards him. That's the kind of thing people always always leave out, it's the Ki. Jyabura's comment towards Sanji's emotions? The more recent Burgess talking shit towards Sabo? Yes? No? Okay how about how Rebecca's showings in the first half was not bad until she encountered her Mother's killer? Not Ki? Yes? The 'Ki in Haki' ladies and gentlemen and both of the ladies definitely has them and was affected, while the men counted on it.

Zoro allows Tashigi to try and fight Monet on her own, Tashigi can’t cope, and Zoro then defeats Monet through his sheer musky manliness. Build up villain, make savior look cool etc; I don’t think I need to elaborate on how this shows on Tashigis “win/loss” report.

It wasn't his manliness, it was literally his aura and intention to kill her or in other words - bloodlust. Kaku was also affected by it, there's no shame in that unless you don't understand it. As I said before, it was also to portray and conclude that Tashigi is far behind Zoro and her having realize that.

- Zoro carries Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment. This is done because Comedy! and involves Zoro carrying Tashigi to safety like a caveman, much to her embarrassment

Or you know.. a hint of his Bushido. It's also funny in regards that they get lost.. wonder whose 'fault' that falls under, hmm.

So in short, Tashigi spent Punk Hazard losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. Which you can all easily rationalize in-story (Her opponents were stronger, that’s just Smokers personality etc), but doesn’t change that all Oda decided to write for Tashigi this arc was losing battles, getting saved, and being unwilling fanservice/comic relief. She was used as a tool to make others look more sympathetic or cool or threatening- but where are the moments where Oda lets Tashigi be cool? What wins did she get? And I’m talking as framed in the manga, and beyond just her having intentions of doing something.
This is what it looks like when the manga actually lets Tashigi have a “cool Tashigi moment” (Side note: no, she did not “do nothing” at Alabasta; at most she tried and failed against Robin, much like she tried and failed at PH):
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/204/20
http://www.readmanga.today/one-piece/206/2
That^ is Oda consciously giving Tashigi a “win”, and it is a world of difference from us readers going “I thought it was very cool how Tashigi tried her best to make a contribution, and she did well to not die against her opponents, I’m sure she will get to have some actual successes next time” and being satisfied with that as a “win” for the character.
The single bone thrown to Tashigi on PH is Nami calling her a nice person, which is about as token a “Win” as you can get in a shonen manga. Naruto, you’re an incredible ninja-genius who has overcome adversity, has techniques out the wazoo, and accomplishes miracles! Sakura you’re…a kind girl, who tries hard.

Comic relief? Kinda harsh. I already said in the beginning about the portrayal of females in the series and a part of my reply to [Kizuchan] just now "About the gender issue being brought up, besides Bellemere telling her daughters "no matter what happens, don't ever hate the world you were born under". There's Kuina who realizes that when girls grow up they fall behind to guys in physical strength, crying remembering that her Father told her that girls would never be the World's Greatest Swordsman. When the crew first met Aokiji and after he froze Robin and the crew is trying to protect her, Aokiji stated "it'd be better for the world not to save that woman" after which Nami tries to attack him and replying with "with all due respect, but a pirate group is a collection of people like that". In Enies Lobby, Sanji refused to kick Kalifa and demands the key to Robin's cuffs, Kalifa replies with "You don't have to treat me like a woman, I don't live in such a delicate world". So the way I see it, in regards to my argument on the pirate theme affecting the portrayal, it's more like women becoming in power in general, which makes me wonder even more what Tsuru's story is. My personal guess is she's someone from Wano Kuni, I have my own reasons but it would be nice if Tashigi or another female swordsman definitely matters at that time seeing as the whole gender issue is probably gonna take a step further there."

About Nami and Tashigi.. seriously? It's not so much "nice" as they are strong-willed when it comes to their own morals, as it correlated to Bellemere and female Marines.. how they survive in such a world.. again someone like Tsuru.

And this is Tashigis first major appearance since an arc that concluded with her vowing to get stronger. This should be where we see that she has gotten stronger – through actual on-screen “wins” for the character, and not just implied by rank increase or the fact that “she is in the new world without dying instantly = stronger”. This should be a time for payoffs to that earlier promise, not a new “maybe next time!” promise…but even that promise is not made in the manga. The scene of Tashigi going “goddammit, I want to contribute more than I did at Punk Hazard, so I need to get even strongerer!” does not exist, except in the heads of readers. You can try and say that its self evident, that its unneeded to actually show in the story, but its crucial if you want to say that this was Odas intent for the character. If Oda wanted to make a point of “Tashigi then realized she needed even more training”, he’d have included a scene of Tashigi realizing she needed more training. That he doesn’t have this moment to offset all her losses speaks volumes, and is a part of the problem at least I have with her this arc.

Uhhmm I said this before but Smoker? Besides, rivals who get stronger only to realize the main characters also have gotten stronger is a big trope in shonen and mangas.

About Rebecca

A lot of the same issues Tashigi had have faced Rebecca: she keeps voicing her desire to contribute, and actively tries to contribute, yet she has nothing to show for it but a string of failures from which she needed to be saved. You can explain why she fails in-story, but the problem is that the purpose of Rebecca is to fail. “Look readers, the cute kind Rebecca is in trouble and is sad. Poor Rebecca! Feel sorry for her, readers. Look, character X saved poor Rebecca in the nick of time in a cool way. Character X is cool, right readers?”
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look how evil this guy is for tormenting Rebecca.
Look at Rebeccas smexy outfit!
Feel sorry for Rebecca.
Look at how cool X is for saving Rebecca in the nick of time.

That’s whats so frustrating about her character; not the fact that she fails, but how and why she fails. Rebecca has no successes, no real triumphs to offset her failures, because her purpose is to fail_,_ in order to enable other characters to be sympathetic or cool, by helping poor Rebecca and solving her problems.

You know her idea of getting stronger was the Mera Mera right? I said all of this to [Kizuchan] already but she was a pawn when she said that, as in when Luffy commented on "you don't look like a prisoner" she replied with silence and then her past was revealed. When Luffy agreed to kick Doflamingo's ass for a debt, it served as a parallel on their interaction at the beginning and the end. Rebecca was a "pawn" in the Colosseum in the beginning and then a controlled a puppet at the end. I said this already and I'll say it again, Ki in Haki, as [kouch_lee] implied she was fine at the first half, only when her Mother's killer was revealed to be in front of her, the blow to her head wasn't much of an impact compared to that. After which, she took awhile (and understandably so) to gain her confidence and spirit back - I think it was half-way in Kyros fight? She wanted to fight, so you're free to direct your argument on the Kyros fight and onwards. When Rebecca came running towards Doflamingo, she was "unburdened", little did she know her Aunt was gonna be there. Victim of circumstances, I swear Rebecca is and the tone of what you're trying to say I can agree with.

King Cannon

You know, I didn't really mind Tashigi's treatment at Punk Hazard because Smoker's treatment was more "memorable".

andy

@King:

You know, I didn't really mind Tashigi's treatment at Punk Hazard because Smoker's treatment was more "memorable".

Smoker and Tashigi get treat rather good compare to bellemay this arc lol.

Nice SBS info .

Game And Guy

Ah we're getting off-topic here. But I'd have to reread/rewatch Punk Hazard to see how bad Tashigi was or wasn't. Rereading Dressrosa though, Rebecca is much more bearable. I've said this in another thread, but rereading Dressrosa with the knowledge of which characters to care for makes the whole arc much more enjoyable, and knowing how and who Rebecca is makes her a little less of a burden.

That being said, I feel bad for not actually saying something about Volume 78. Though my friend who's in Japan right now bought the volume for me…even though おれは日本ごをすこし分かります。So it'd just be on my shelf for a long while before I can actually read it. The SBS has some really neat information though. ~~I never even knew that X in X Drake was diez~~

Mr. Luffy

Actually I found the bit about Gimlet to be the more interesting factoid in the SBS. It essentially solidifies that Senor Pink is a caricature of a Raymond Chandler hard-boiled protagonist. Though I think the "women fawning over him" bit and other elements is a caricaturization of the gritty, pulpy "man's man" world of the Mickey Spillane novels.

Also, I can't get too worked up on Tashigi because, unlike Rebecca, she is still an "in-progress" character that could end up going countless ways in the future. The only thing I dislike there is that her rivalry with Zoro will be predictable because Zoro is a sword-weilding god at this point and there is no way whatsoever that she will ever be his equal. Kinda like how I feel about Coby's more friendly rivalry with Luffy.

redon

Got Volume 78 today

Super-HQ cover like always, scanned by redon.

Chrior

Thanks Redon! Can't wait to get my hands on it, but I'll wait for the next (and hopefully final Dressrosa) volume and buy 3 at once.

Ping

Awwweeeeeessssssoooooommmmmeeeeee ~

Thank you, redon!

And btw, I'm looking forward to see Gear 4th in the next Cover Volume ~!!!

.access timeco.

I actually thought the mother/adventure joke was funny.
The boobs' one, on the other hand, was pathetic to say the least. So you are giving your young readers what they dream, Oda? Wonder how your young female readers felt like reading that, having you say explicitly that men want women with big boobs (not that you weren't saying it through your drawings since always) while most of them probably don't fit that description and already feel bad for that.

Honestly, I used to respect Oda a lot as a writer. But the way he handles the whole gender thing, his female characters and the view on women he conveys is so consistently terrible - and he keeps doing it in almost every chapter and chance he gets - that currently have almost no respect left for this man. Maybe the reason I can't connect to OP drama and supposedly epic scenes anymore is because I currently have the author in a bad light so I can only look at his work with cynicism.

apologized

thanks redon for the scan

redon

ONE PIECE VOLUME 78 RAW LQ

http://faststore.org/rdn1qvnfcxxw
http://uploaded.net/file/osauwmx9
http://www46.zippyshare.com/v/dhKOQ1eK/file.html

Snir

are these important? anyone got a brief translation?

Hans Landa

@Snir:

are these important? anyone got a brief translation?
http://i.imgur.com/hWmYiZ8.jpg

Those are in every volume. I think they're just a reminder on where to send your drawings and that you can view them on one-piece.com, if they get published.

Supernova

Oda has stated himself he draws the manga for boys, and doesn't care for the female fanbase.

I really don't get the trend of feminist fans in the One Piece community, but really if Oda doesn't care, I don't care, there are more ways to help the females then complaining about a manga dedicated to boys.

sggupta

@Supernova:

Oda has stated himself he draws the manga for boys, and doesn't care for the female fanbase.

I really don't get the trend of feminist fans in the One Piece community, but really if Oda doesn't care, I don't care, there are more ways to help the females then complaining about a manga dedicated to boys.

you know,i used to think the same way until i realised there are many issues concerning gender equality in the manga while watching other series and things,but still i think majority of the gender issues people do bring up are misguided and irrevelant.take for instance rebecca.instead of accepting rebecca as strong person because of her fighting spirit and her mother's beliefs,people just say she keeps crying without considering situation and calling it sexist.hell,someone insinuated kyros was sexist for wanting to protect her daughter and not wanting her to have to use violence.frankly,people would just rather further their own agenda/bias without undrestanding and accepting the context of dramatic storytelling.i mean,sure physically strong female characters are virtually non-existent,but that doesn't mean rebecca automatically has to become one.she is her own character.
sorry about the off-topic rant.

HaxeyeMihawk

Oda's female characterization is definitely undoubtedly terrible, while I'm not someone who takes any issue with him drawing idealized female physiques, I do however take issue when the sum of a character is crying and rescue scenarios. I had so much hope that Rebecca would at least have strong warrior ability to go along with the stereotypical beauty.

You don't have to be an advocate of pushing some sort of feminist agenda into the manga, the fact is that characters like Rebecca are so one note with the crying and dependency that it makes their scenes numbingly predictable, repetitive and makes it a drag when they're the focus of a scene.

.access timeco.

@sggupta:

you know,i used to think the same way until i realised there are many issues concerning gender equality in the manga while watching other series and things,but still i think majority of the gender issues people do bring up are misguided and irrevelant.take for instance rebecca.instead of accepting rebecca as strong person because of her fighting spirit and her mother's beliefs,people just say she keeps crying without considering situation and calling it sexist.hell,someone insinuated kyros was sexist for wanting to protect her daughter and not wanting her to have to use violence.frankly,people would just rather further their own agenda/bias without undrestanding and accepting the context of dramatic storytelling.i mean,sure physically strong female characters are virtually non-existent,but that doesn't mean rebecca automatically has to become one.she is her own character.
sorry about the off-topic rant.

The problem is not Rebecca per se, but her while part of the whole group of female characters in One Piece. Yes, her characterization makes sense with her background and everything, problem is that Oda choses yet again to fail to empower a female character (and people were particularly mad with Rebecca's case because for a good while Oda mislead people into thinking he was building Rebecca to the point where she would take the reigns of her own life instead of being protected by men - something everyone is expecting a woman to do in this manga since… well... since it started).

In another context, Rebecca's characterization probably wouldn't get the same negative reaction, the problem is this is the 3423425th time Oda goes the same way with a female character (and, yes, often male characters are depicted the same way, but those a part of the male characters, not all of them). So people look like they are mad at Rebecca, but they are actually mad at Oda, not her.

firelord111

at least in one piece we only have boa one-sided love
female characters in one piece are weak yes but who do you think oda is he isn't god he is a man

y2kyle89

@firelord111:

at least in one piece we only have boa one-sided love
female characters in one piece are weak yes but who do you think oda is he isn't god he is a man

You have a very low standard for godhood…

Game And Guy

Can we not, like, keep unnecessarily using this thread for any more discussion about the Oda and his female characters. I keep seeing this thread get bumped thinking there'd be more news or interesting bits of, you know, what the thread is about which is Volume 78 of this Manga. If ya'll want to talk about stuff that isn't related to Volume 78, then ya'll go post somewhere more relevant.

sggupta

@.access:

The problem is not Rebecca per se, but her while part of the whole group of female characters in One Piece. Yes, her characterization makes sense with her background and everything, problem is that Oda choses yet again to fail to empower a female character (and people were particularly mad with Rebecca's case because for a good while Oda mislead people into thinking he was building Rebecca to the point where she would take the reigns of her own life instead of being protected by men - something everyone is expecting a woman to do in this manga since… well... since it started).

so you don't think that nami took the reigns of her own life?or vivi,or robin?that they were "protected" by male characters?that is so insulting to them that sorry,but i'm not even gonna reply.

And i wonder what you mean by empowering characters.af far as i can take it,power means being able to fight for the things important to you,at least that's how it is shown in the manga.it may be the case that characters are unable to overcome the oponent,but as one piece shows that the more important thing is fighting for something.
i mean,that has been the case for a long time,whether characters were male or female for some reason or other they are powerless against someone,and that's where luffy comes in.boodle,sanji,nami,viv,crocus,chopper,vivi,pell,cricket,waipa,paulie etc.
and rebecca has fought.she has continued to fight in the colosiem without hurting anyone and with everyone else jeering and taunting her,while only being 16 and only learning fighting recently.yes she cried when faced with her mother's killers,but i don't understand how that makes her weak.
even after the colossiem she decides to fight by going to hand over the key of law's cage.
i'm not saying her execution was perfect and she be shown to be more effective,but still.

Snir

some more thanks to [h=1]Pekoe[/h][h=2]@ 3926_Robin[/h]

RyaPhoenix

@Snir:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJ89d-HUkAEU90P.jpg:large
some more thanks to Pekoe

@ 3926_Robin

Is it faded or higher detailed?

Snir

@RyaPhoenix:

Is it faded or higher detailed?

its from the magazine raw to the volume. in the second pic you can see luffy's right eye is changed. but im not sure about the top pic of robin's back