So. If they had raped Theon, and flayed Sansa and driven her insane, would that make the situation any better?
Is that aimed at me? Better than what? I don't know what you're getting at.
So. If they had raped Theon, and flayed Sansa and driven her insane, would that make the situation any better?
Is that aimed at me? Better than what? I don't know what you're getting at.
All those quotes deal with me wondering what makes this scene more significant than everything else that happens in the series. Which apparently the answer to you is, it's not. Which is fine. Confusing that you'd still follow the series, but I already said that being against it as a whole is fine, and that there are widespread media representation problems. That's what I already very clearly set aside because at that point I respect your view but discussing it further does not interest me.
Yeah. Shame I like this series for its FANTASTIC CHARACTERS AND DIALOGUE AND INTRIGUE AND PLOT AND GREAT ACTING. But don't really like the horrific violence element and get squeemish whenever it gets really bad… and it wasn't THIS bad in the first couple seasons..
I run into the same thing with Berserk. Where I can deal with what the old anime showed, but get bothered by the graphic detail the manga goes into... or the extra graphic detail of the new movie versions. Already nasty or horrifying moments made worse and more visually appalling doesn't make them better or enhance the story.... it just makes it harder to watch.
You can like a series in spite of a bad squicky element or something that doesn't sit well with you. (See also, for example, the underage love triangle harems of Negima) but still be impressed by everything else the series does so well. (see also My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and the fact that its a brightly colored pastel show aimed at 6 year old girls.)
Now, if you want to call the scene FILLER, you are wrong. But I'm done explaining why.
It an entire story arc not in the books made up in order to fill time while stalling for the next book to come out, while also cutting multiple actual book plotlines for several characters. It is 93% filler…. and would be 100% if Theon wasn't there.
As will be likely most of the last season for all the characters.
Yeah. Shame I like this series for its FANTASTIC CHARACTERS AND DIALOGUE AND INTRIGUE AND PLOT. But don't really like the horrific violence element and get squeemish whenever it gets really bad.
I run into the same thing with Berserk.
You can like a series in spite of a bad squicky element. (See also, for example, the underage love triangle harems of Negima) but still be impressed by everything else the series does so well.
It an entire story arc not in the books made up entirely whole cloth for the show in order to fill time while stalling for the next book to come out. It is 100% filler.
Well, yes I understand that you can be conflicted. But when a series that consistently does horrible things angers you whenever those horrible things happen, you make a choice. And complaining about each subsequent horrible thing once you've made that choice is… you know what, fuck it, I don't care anymore.
Your definition of filler is not the definition being used here. People are referring to the SCENE as filler WITHIN the given story arc. As useless padding because "they couldn't figure out what else to show."
I don't think I'd call it filler as much as it is cutting the cloth. They aren't going to do every storyline, so stories end up getting combined or cut. Jaime's in Dorne. Sansa's in Winterfell. No sign of the Ironborn or Jon Connington. It's not like there's any point in stalling when the show'll end before the books anyway, and they apparently have a guideline on how the stories go and end. It also doesn't seem like stalling when they'll probably get done with all the book material by the end of this season meaning there's a decent chance we get the next season before the next book comes out.
There's also cases where they decide to just outright change stories….such as how they apparently figured that if Jaime was willing to kill Bran, he'd be willing to rape Cersei.....because....I guess they decided they know the character better than the author does.
Because you look away for the squeemish bits, and try to ignore them, while letting the story, characters and acting keep you interested the other 95% of the time.
The problem is when it starts sliding into a much higher ratio and much more disgusting visuals and situations…. (And yes, its possible to find one thing worse than what came before i.
Years after you're already caught up and invested in the material and just want to see how it all ends.
But yes, there are breaking points where the value of entertainment no longer outweighs the value of the anti-entertainment,, and I think this show is about hitting that point for a lot of people.
(There was also a point where I stopped reading Naruto and Bleach for instance, because they got too dumb... but it took a while to reach that threshold after the strong promising start.)
Well, yes I understand that you can be conflicted. But when a series that consistently does horrible things angers you whenever those horrible things happen, you make a choice. And complaining about each subsequent horrible thing once you've made that choice is… you know what, fuck it, I don't care anymore.
Every horrible thing is horrible in its own way. You can react to these horrible things independently, or in bulk.
It's not black & white, see? You can enjoy 95% of the show, but find a particular throughline problematic and troubling.
It's just plain critical thinking to be able to discern things within a show that are "ok" or "not". Even within the context of their shitsack shitworlds.
I could, say, ask you
Why have the writers turned two consensual sex scenes into rapes? and should I just not have a reaction to that?
Especially when the writers & actors themselves are still as of March 2015 debating whether the second one was rape at all?
I could ask why the writers felt it was necessary to take Sansa to this place when it could've been, easily avoided.
Or not shown. My linking the Mad Max retweet wasn't just for show. You don't have to go to snuff film lengths to convey abuse.
Frankly I feel gross for even having had to say the word rape as many times as I have in the past two days.
But that's exactly the level of seriousness and care it deserves.
I think you're just having a real hard time with this. At this point, I think this is the most helpful link I can provide.
It an entire story arc not in the books made up in order to fill time while stalling for the next book to come out, while also cutting multiple actual book plotlines for several characters. It is 93% filler…. and would be 100% if Theon wasn't there.
As will be likely most of the last season for all the characters.
I don´t see any problem with the rape scene (was clearly an important tourning point for Theon), but calling the Sansa story now filler is kind of a mute point, when clearly the show is not trying to follow the books a 100% for a long time now. They started the same, but now they are two different universes.
Why is the rape scene the thing everyone is bashing when clearly the fighting choreography and editing in Dorne felt like Xena Warrior Princess in a bad day.
Why is the rape scene the thing everyone is bashing when clearly the fighting choreography and editing in Dorne felt like Xena Warrior Princess in a bad day.
Because bad writing (and directing) has a much more long term negative effect than bad fight choreography.
Why is the rape scene the thing everyone is bashing when clearly the fighting choreography and editing in Dorne felt like Xena Warrior Princess in a bad day.
Probably because that storyline was already a bit shit.
I don´t see any problem with the rape scene (was clearly an important tourning point for Theon), but calling the Sansa story now filler is kind of a mute point, when clearly the show is not trying to follow the books a 100% for a long time now. They started the same, but now they are two different universes.
Why is the rape scene the thing everyone is bashing when clearly the fighting choreography and editing in Dorne felt like Xena Warrior Princess in a bad day.
Theon didn't need Sansa getting raped for him to feel the need to help Sansa. Knowing she was in danger of the same fate as him would have been enough.
Note: Never bring knives to a sword fight unless you're in an RPG.
The reason the Sand Snakes received so much hype before the season is because no one would take them seriously otherwise. And many still don't.
Because bad writing (and directing) has a much more long term negative effect than bad fight choreography.
I will play a little devil advocate just in the sake of an argument. But is really that surprising the last scene yesterday. In the sense of evolution for the character, this is the first time that Sansa got herself willingly in a dire situation. She decided at the end to go to Winterfell and get married to a Bolton.
Ramsay decided that Reek should be the one giving her away (the one person she hates the most for betraying her family), he clearly wants to humiliate her.
So we have her before the wedding, clearly frightened but also secure enough to face Miranda in her little game. She clearly has grown as a character, she can read people a lot better know and understand the situation she is in.
She needs only needs the chance to strike, probably when the battle with Stannis takes place.
In term of direction, a love the fact that when she accepted Ramsay it started snowing, that she had her real colour hair and that little by little the POV of the whole moment when from her to Theon so we could understand what this would probably mean for this two characters in the future.
If next episode, is just her crying in a corner doing nothing, yeah call it bad writing. But for now, it was a setup and execution that was being fabricated since the season started.
[hide]The inclusion of the rape scene is pretty shitty. They didn't need to emphasize this, or even have it happen. As much as 'these things happen', there are alternate routes to take. They explicitly chose this one, and I don't think they're going to be capable to handle the aftermath. This won't destroy the show for me, and I'll move on. Still, I wish they had gone another route.
That said:
People who are saying that 'Sansa has regressed back to being a victim like she was with Joffrey': I completely and utterly disagree with you.[/hide]
So we have her before the wedding, clearly frightened but also secure enough to face Miranda in her little game. She clearly has grown as a character, she can read people a lot better know and understand the situation she is in.
She needs only needs the chance to strike, probably when the battle with Stannis takes place.
she literally was gonna push jeoffery off a ledge in season 2 so i'm still not seeing how this shows she's grown
Sand snakes with their own music video now:
This is wonderful! Are there more episodes of this?
Every horrible thing is horrible in its own way. You can react to these horrible things independently, or in bulk.
It's not black & white, see? You can enjoy 95% of the show, but find a particular throughline problematic and troubling.
It's just plain critical thinking to be able to discern things within a show that are "ok" or "not". Even within the context of their shitsack shitworlds.I could, say, ask you
Why have the writers turned two consensual sex scenes into rapes? and should I just not have a reaction to that?
Especially when the writers & actors themselves are still as of March 2015 debating whether the second one was rape at all?
I could ask why the writers felt it was necessary to take Sansa to this place when it could've been, easily avoided.
Or not shown. My linking the Mad Max retweet wasn't just for show. You don't have to go to snuff film lengths to convey abuse.Frankly I feel gross for even having had to say the word rape as many times as I have in the past two days.
But that's exactly the level of seriousness and care it deserves.I think you're just having a real hard time with this. At this point, I think this is the most helpful link I can provide.
So, after a few hours of doing other stuff and then some further conversations with other people, maybe I can express my thoughts better. Again, in case it wasn't clear, I have not read the books so I can't comment on differences or why something was changed; all I have is what I see.
I think the main thing is I was taking issue with people singling out that particular scene as not making sense or being awful in isolation. I think the valid things to take issue with are either the series at large with its hyper-graphic gratuitous <insert taboo="" subject="" here="">, or the entire treatment of Sansa's plot and character development thus far. But not the isolated event. Sansa has pretty much been handled badly the whole season in terms of characterization, is the conclusion I've come to. She has some scenes that clearly show she is a different person, but nothing nearly drastic enough to signify she's capable of much. She's still kind of a little girl in ways. Likewise, maybe the whole idea of having her end up in Winterfell is stupid. I don't know, have fun with alternatives, including whatever the book does since that's different it seems. But the thing is, given where they took the plot (marriage), I hold that the event in question was pretty much a given. Now, could the treatment of said event have been handled differently? Sure, I guess. To what effect, I don't know. But that's where "hey we show everything way more explicitly than needed all the time!" kicks in, and it becomes a much more generalized problem that loses its real significance in this isolated case (and as far as disturbing sexually explicit scenes go, they were somewhat merciful with the filming here).
Likewise, given the weak characterization of Sansa, it does accomplish a purpose. As upsetting as "using rape as a plot device!?" may be, it fits in with how they've written the story, and not as simply something they decided to put in purely for the hell of it (which is what I was most annoyed at the notion of). If they had steered the storyline in a different direction early enough, I'm sure they could have found other ways to work in the main points. That Sansa is truly in hell because even to his wife and even after being admonished by his father, Ramsay is nothing but a sadist. That Theon might be at a breaking point where he can't remain inactive. But I will still disagree that given how the story was written, the scene was pointless outside of shock value or something. I think there is just a gut reaction to be appalled and say "we get the point and this is totally unnecessary" without really thinking about the context.
So anyway it bothers me to pick the scene as an example of terrible writing when I think the deserving targets of criticism are either deeper/further back ("how is this character and her story being progressed?") or more global ("where do they get off on showing these various messed up things?"). The event itself is not that special in that sense. Blaming the scene or the event sounds to me like having someone take a bomb onto an airplane and then blaming the plane for exploding. What did you expect it to do after the bomb went off?
That view that I was reacting to may not represent you at all, but it's a lot of what I was seeing when the internet was blowing up over it.</insert>
!
Likewise, given the weak characterization of Sansa, it does accomplish a purpose. As upsetting as "using rape as a plot device!?" may be, it fits in with how they've written the story, and not as simply something they decided to put in purely for the hell of it (which is what I was most annoyed at the notion of).
Stop tripping over the language. Rape as a plot device needs to be handled with extreme care and it hasn't YET.
You're talking about how poorly and all over the place you think Sansa's been written this season and can't even see right in front of your face that if THAT'S THE CASE,
WHY should we have confidence they can write a rape to fix that??? If they can't even characterize Sansa properly, why do you expect they can characterize rape properly?
What kind of colossal fuckup is it that your character needs to be fixed by a rape.
How can't you see the forest through the trees?
It's TERRIBLE WRITING.
If they had steered the storyline in a different direction early enough, I'm sure they could have found other ways to work in the main points.
They could have. They didn't.
Thus the scene was unnecessary. It never needed to happen.
If = never put Sansa in rape position Then = never NEED a RAPE
THUS UNNECESSARY
THUS GRATUITOUS
They didn't need to - but they did. And rape is a bad way to move the plot forward. There's PLENTY of non-rape ways to motivate a character.
But the thing is, given where they took the plot (marriage), I hold that the event in question was pretty much a given. Now, could the treatment of said event have been handled differently?
The End.
It's also important to remember that unlike the books, the show often does what they find the most "interesting" rather than what would actually make most sense. In that way, rather than being kept safe and groomed for success in the Vale or just being sent directly to Stannis who's desperate for a Stark heir at this point, she's in Wintefell because it's what the writers would figure is the most "interesting" way to take her story rather than because it was a natural progression.
I had started writing up a post but eh. I don't think you get the fact that I probably don't disagree with you, at least your general ideas/concerns. I keep trying to tell you that I understand and respect your points, but that they're not what I was focusing on. Once we're talking about portraying things like rape in general, or "what ifs" that could run rampant and extend to anything at any time, then sure. Things could be different/better, and there are issues with this and just about every piece of media. That wasn't my point. I was trying to say the underlying issues are deeper than some isolated scene, which was not placed there for mere shits and giggles (or I guess more accurately, for gasps and cringes). If my last post didn't get that across, I'm done. I'm gonna go back to trying to enjoy something that I watch for entertainment as much as possible.
I had started writing up a post but eh. I don't think you get the fact that I probably don't disagree with you, at least your general ideas/concerns. I keep trying to tell you that I understand and respect your points, but that they're not what I was focusing on. Once we're talking about portraying things like rape in general, or "what ifs" that could run rampant and extend to anything at any time, then sure. Things could be different/better, and there are issues with this and just about every piece of media. That wasn't my point. I was trying to say the underlying issues are deeper than some isolated scene, which was not placed there for mere shits and giggles (or I guess more accurately, for gasps and cringes).
We disagree substantially, and I know we do, because nearly every post you've written including this one has some element of "what's the big deal?" in it.
The last scene was fucked up but I don't get what has everyone so mad other than "poor Sansa!"
But what makes this scene so special amidst an entire series rife with gratuitous sex, rape, torture, murder, misogyny, racism, abuse, slavery, etc?
Well, I guess if you have a consistent problem with that type of thing being depicted then that's fine (not that I necessarily agree, and it's not like every character left and right is being subjected to it). I have more of an issue with people who seem to think this isolated instance is wrong in particular
Calling it "rape filler" is more insulting than the rape itself.
There's a big difference between hatred and the courage/desperation/necessity to act upon it. From my perspective it's like you guys are saying character development doesn't matter.
And not one of them seems able to admit that concerns over the depiction of rape in this show are legitimate without some kind of equivocation.
Even here you're saying: "well, I see what you're saying, but I don't see how this is gratuitous!" without addressing points you aren't able to rationalize.
If my last post didn't get that across, I'm done. I'm gonna go back to trying to enjoy something that I watch for entertainment as much as possible.
I'm deeply entertained though. Both by Game of Thrones and this vigorous debate!
Given Sansa's storyline this season, I think this scene seemed natural and appropriate. The biggest concern is the handling of the psychological ramifications on Sansa's character. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with depicting rape on television or in a movie if its consequences and trauma are approached carefully and examined earnestly.
However, the writers of Game of Thrones of previously shown themselves inept and insensitive in dealing with the aftermath of rape. As such, they should have avoided writing any storyline that would potentially lead to such scenes, especially after the rape debacle last season. Perhaps they could try again with a secondary character, but inflicting it upon a main character who's already suffered a lot of abuse and with whom we've formed a strong emotional connection is, quite plainly, stupid. It's doubly stupid, since it's a made up storyline to keep her interesting. If they handle the fallout next episode with nuance and sensitivity they might earn some trust back but until then the doubt and contempt seems appropriate.
I just want to reiterate that I have no problem with the scene itself, which I thought was excellently done, but rather the path leading to it and likely the handling afterwards.
Well maybe we disagree on whether this particular scene is somehow special amidst the sea of similarly fucked up things in the show? Other than being another instance thrown on the pile which makes it bigger than it was before. Otherwise continuously quoting the same things I've said and completely ignoring the context of me not getting why this isolated scene, given everything the show does, is particularly unique, achieves nothing. Because I don't take issue with any of the complaints in a larger context. The puzzler for me was why this specific one, of all things, is blowing up so hard and taking it so far as to insinuate that the writers just think rape is awesome and let's rape because rape. But hey, if I've been living under a rock and people are outraged like this EVERY time something awful happens (for reasons other than "my favorite character!!!"), then cool. Ignore me. Go be outraged… I'm kinda over it. I've made peace with the fact that I'm watching a series that I feel uncomfortable experiencing with other people in the room.
Oh and if the writers go totally fuck up the aftermath that's also dumb as hell, but I've been trying to avoid making assumptions about "everything will be instant fail" because that doesn't seem productive.
Yeah. There's definite outrage over a lot of other cases whether it's Craster's keep, Cersei and Jaime(the worst example), or how much focus was put on showing Theon's torture.
Weakest season so far. Good dialogues, lost adaptation.
Arya's plot is nice though.
The scene was bound to happen - it is in Ramsay's nature, and it was well depicted. Hopefully it will give her some sort of character development, but the whole thing seemed more like a set-up for Theon. I suspect there will be an episode of subtle ramifications on her character shown and nothing more than that. But frankly Sansa being a puppet is getting tiresome, and if it somehow triggers a change in her mind set, it's a win in my book.
Theon gets tortured beyond belief and completely broken. Nobody makes a fuss. Sansa gets raped, which of course is a horrible thing as well, but in no way worse what happened to theon and not even fully shown at all. But no, that sparks controversy. facepalm
Maybe you do live under a rock Foolio.
i09: Something to Think About Before Writing That Edgy Rape Scene Vox Media: Game of Thrones' latest rape scene made viewers very angry. And rightfully so.
New York Times: More Outrage At Latest Depiction of Rape on 'Game of Thrones' Vulture: Just Another Rape Scene on Game of Thrones
WIRED: GAME OF THRONES RECAP: POOR SANSA
IndieWire: 'Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken': When the Series Betrayed Sansa Stark
The Daily Beast: Game of Thrones’ Sansa Stark Problem: The Whipping Girl of Westeros
Vanity Fair: Game of Thrones Absolutely Did Not Need to Go There with Sansa Stark
Polygon: Game of Thrones has a pretty serious villain problem this season
The AV Club: Game Of Thrones (experts): “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken”
The New York Times: ‘Game of Thrones’ Invites You To Another Terrible Wedding The Mary Sue: We Will No Longer Be Promoting HBO’s Game of Thrones
Some Oscar-winning and published authors up there. Certainly: with more literary experience than me.
And there's plenty –plenty-- of others. But if you're too lazy or too incurious to read any of those, a nice summary of all of those is here:
SALON: Here’s why people are so upset about the latest “Game of Thrones” rape: “So cheap, such an obvious choice, I felt offended as a fan”
But hey, not everyone agrees with me about Rape of Thrones! So don't feel lonely! But your defense is -frankly- oblivious.
This is the end result of being fed up with rape being used to further the plot, especially since there's no clear defense of "well, they did it this way in the book," here.
How many ways must it need to be said?
Maybe This is What You Need:
Why Are You Writing a Rape Scene?
The title of this post isn’t an accusation. It’s a genuine question. And it’s also a subject that’s been on my mind just about since I got started writing.
Trigger warning for all kinds of bad shit.
Rape is a thing in books. It’s been a thing in books for awhile now, but in the past 10-20 years, this horrific taboo has become more explored and prominently used in literature and art. It feels like it’s come to a head recently, what with yet another brutal, degrading rape in last night’s Game of Thrones, a show I’ve only ever watched occasionally but increasingly feels like a conga line of sexual violence.
A lot of people are mad about it. Other people say, “Well, it’s that world. It’s also in history, and in war. It’s perfectly justified to feature rape in a story. And that character is a monster.”
So here’s a thought exercise I’d like you to try.
You’re writing a rape scene. A woman gets brutally raped by a monstrous male character in one scene in your book. It’s scandalizing. It’s disturbing. It’s graphic. People are going to talk about this.
Okay. Now substitute another sex crime in its place – say, homosexual pedophilia.
Now instead of raping a buxom, weeping young woman, your Extremely Bad Dude is now raping a terrified six year old boy.
Does it still feel like it deserves to be there?
To use the usual fictional rape apologist arguments, there’s no reason this scene shouldn’t exist. Child rape exists, and no doubt happens in times of war. It probably happens even more in third world countries that are at war. Historically speaking, I’m sure there have been thousands of child rapes since the dawn of humanity. Maybe millions.
Practically speaking, it would be remiss not to include a child rape scene or two, right? It happens. We must be truthful to reality. It’s our duty.
Or, wait – is it possible you’re using this horrific, degrading, monstrous act as window dressing?
That’s why a lot of people feature rape scenes, it seems. “This is a very bad dude,” a writer might say, “and I need to prove it to the audience.” And the audience might say, “Yes, that character WOULD do that. That’s absolutely in line with their nature.” And so they’re fine with it.
Or maybe the writer just wants to signal to the reader that this world is extra, super-duper grim and gritty. The audience would then say, “Well, that’s the world this story’s set in. It’s monstrous and brutal. But them’s the shakes.” And so they’re fine with it. (This is basically adding ambiance to the story. “Let’s throw a little rape in the background,” the writer thinks, “so folks get the picture.”)
But while audiences seem willing to sit and watch a young woman get raped to make these points, raping a six year old boy suddenly seems… excessive, right? It’s way over the line. No one wants to watch a sobbing child get sexually violated. So why are we willing to sit and watch one awful sex crime but not the other?
And if you go through rape-heavy books, and swap out all the rape victims with young boys, then, shit howdy, you’d probably start thinking, “Whoa, what’s the fucking deal here? Why does this writer keep featuring scenes with this awful shit? Are they getting off on it? Do they think that I’m getting off on it?”
And that’s a tough question. Are you getting off on it? Are you including this rape scene for titillation, to be sensational, to set tongues a wagging? Are you using rape as a tool, a signal, a way to tell the reader that you mean business?
And is there no other way for you to do that? Do you have to make someone get raped for your story to work? Or do you just want to see it happen?
So here’s the things you need to ask yourself if you’re writing a rape scene:
- What am I trying to do with this rape scene? What is its function?
- Is this necessary to the plot? Will this book fall apart if this rape scene is not included?
- Will this story focus more on the rapist than the victim? Will the victim essentially be forgotten?
- If I swap out this rape victim with a young child, will audiences still accept this scene? Or will they find this scene wholly unnecessary, and condemn me for it?
Rape gets trivialized in the real world. It’s frequently hushed up or waved off. The victims are forgotten. So think long and hard about why you’re including it in your book. To use such a monstrous act as window dressing is to trivialize it further.
Beyond that, I just can't help you.
Ok, because lots of Media is jumping on the train, I will change my opinion now, too.
Not.
Who broke Theon? George RR Martin.
Who is trying to break Sansa? D and D.
Theon was a shamble of a human beeing for a while already. We already accepted over 3-5 years ago that Theon got tortured and beaten pretty badly. Just as we don't linger on Tyrion's abuse, Joffrey's sadism, the Mountain's works, and others.
This is a new one, that every time these dudes stray from the book's path, they end up doing something mostly subpar, saying it like that to be nice. Compare book 2 daenerys vs season 2 daenerys, or littlefinger taunting Cersei with the "I incest" stuff, or 8-10 years old tonmen trying to outlaw beets vs sexualy active tonmen who is incapable of defending his wife when she's being captured by religious fanatics.
The problem is, Silence, you're so busy thinking I don't understand you that you're not even trying to understand me. I just read through like 4 of those articles randomly. They all focus on Sansa being shittily developed as a character all season, and rape being bad/questionable as a device overall (either in this series or not). Oh boy, it's not like I brought those two things up as the real problems worth addressing instead of one isolated event that was unavoidable given the plot choices made. But okay, if this is just reigniting the same old complaints, that's fine. It's just not new. Frankly it's just boring. And I'm really glad this is the first time I come across such blowback in areas I frequent, because if I saw this often it'd be intolerable.
Have fun using a jackhammer to tap in a nail, in the wrong spot. I'm bowing out.
Why Are You Writing a Rape Scene?
The title of this post isn’t an accusation. It’s a genuine question. And it’s also a subject that’s been on my mind just about since I got started writing.
Trigger warning for all kinds of bad shit.
Rape is a thing in books. It’s been a thing in books for awhile now, but in the past 10-20 years, this horrific taboo has become more explored and prominently used in literature and art. It feels like it’s come to a head recently, what with yet another brutal, degrading rape in last night’s Game of Thrones, a show I’ve only ever watched occasionally but increasingly feels like a conga line of sexual violence.
A lot of people are mad about it. Other people say, “Well, it’s that world. It’s also in history, and in war. It’s perfectly justified to feature rape in a story. And that character is a monster.”
So here’s a thought exercise I’d like you to try.
You’re writing a rape scene. A woman gets brutally raped by a monstrous male character in one scene in your book. It’s scandalizing. It’s disturbing. It’s graphic. People are going to talk about this.
Okay. Now substitute another sex crime in its place – say, homosexual pedophilia.
Now instead of raping a buxom, weeping young woman, your Extremely Bad Dude is now raping a terrified six year old boy.
Does it still feel like it deserves to be there?
To use the usual fictional rape apologist arguments, there’s no reason this scene shouldn’t exist. Child rape exists, and no doubt happens in times of war. It probably happens even more in third world countries that are at war. Historically speaking, I’m sure there have been thousands of child rapes since the dawn of humanity. Maybe millions.
Practically speaking, it would be remiss not to include a child rape scene or two, right? It happens. We must be truthful to reality. It’s our duty.
Or, wait – is it possible you’re using this horrific, degrading, monstrous act as window dressing?
That’s why a lot of people feature rape scenes, it seems. “This is a very bad dude,” a writer might say, “and I need to prove it to the audience.” And the audience might say, “Yes, that character WOULD do that. That’s absolutely in line with their nature.” And so they’re fine with it.
Or maybe the writer just wants to signal to the reader that this world is extra, super-duper grim and gritty. The audience would then say, “Well, that’s the world this story’s set in. It’s monstrous and brutal. But them’s the shakes.” And so they’re fine with it. (This is basically adding ambiance to the story. “Let’s throw a little rape in the background,” the writer thinks, “so folks get the picture.”)
But while audiences seem willing to sit and watch a young woman get raped to make these points, raping a six year old boy suddenly seems… excessive, right? It’s way over the line. No one wants to watch a sobbing child get sexually violated. So why are we willing to sit and watch one awful sex crime but not the other?
And if you go through rape-heavy books, and swap out all the rape victims with young boys, then, shit howdy, you’d probably start thinking, “Whoa, what’s the fucking deal here? Why does this writer keep featuring scenes with this awful shit? Are they getting off on it? Do they think that I’m getting off on it?”
And that’s a tough question. Are you getting off on it? Are you including this rape scene for titillation, to be sensational, to set tongues a wagging? Are you using rape as a tool, a signal, a way to tell the reader that you mean business?
And is there no other way for you to do that? Do you have to make someone get raped for your story to work? Or do you just want to see it happen?
So here’s the things you need to ask yourself if you’re writing a rape scene:
- What am I trying to do with this rape scene? What is its function?
- Is this necessary to the plot? Will this book fall apart if this rape scene is not included?
- Will this story focus more on the rapist than the victim? Will the victim essentially be forgotten?
- If I swap out this rape victim with a young child, will audiences still accept this scene? Or will they find this scene wholly unnecessary, and condemn me for it?
Rape gets trivialized in the real world. It’s frequently hushed up or waved off. The victims are forgotten. So think long and hard about why you’re including it in your book. To use such a monstrous act as window dressing is to trivialize it further.
Watch this rape thing getting so banalized that in 5, 10 years rape scenes of six year old boys will be the normal thing some people/media get angry about.
Where's humanity going?
Theon gets tortured beyond belief and completely broken. Nobody makes a fuss. Sansa gets raped, which of course is a horrible thing as well, but in no way worse what happened to theon and not even fully shown at all. But no, that sparks controversy. facepalm
I think that it relates to the weird dichotomy we have between violence and sex in general. The fact that we moralize more over sex than violence, whichever way it is depicted ( with rape being basically the peak of taboo ). Sex on the big screen is always obscured, while brutal, grotesque mutilations are zoomed in on and have the focus put on it. Given all the violence we've seen in this series, I really can't see any reason for people to be outraged. There are far more terrible things being done to people constantly in this universe.
Watch this rape thing getting so banalized that in 5, 10 years rape scenes of six year old boys will be the normal thing some people/media get angry about.
Where's humanity going?
This topic share similarities with what video games went and are going through at the moment. But the fact is that, in reality, violence is frowned upon now more than ever. Is banalization of such topics really a problem as long as it doesn't affect our perception of them in our own world?
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I won't deny that some use rape for shock value, which in turn affects attempts at using it for story progression negatively. But what if it actually furthers the plot in a way that wouldn't be possible without it? People may have their fears considering some of the previous unneccesary violence, but no one should prematurely bash a decision which consequences, or lack there of, hasn't been showed yet. Also this will be a classic example of media exposure increasing ratings..
There are lots of flawed, complicated, interesting women in Game of Thrones, figuring out how to either live their lives or "play the game" within the context of this shitty garbage patriarchy. Young women, old women, mothers, daughters, red women, swordswomen & sand snakes. That is hugely compelling for many fans, male & female. So scenes like these, especially taken on the whole, seriously damage the franchise, but especially the show. Sexual violence is especially heinous and graphic. If you’re going to show something that painful, that horrible, shouldn't you be required to think about it? Shouldn't you be required to not be careless? Even in the context of a world with horrific sexual violence and tragedy if you don't handle the results of such behaviors with care you risk cheapening and degrading your entire work. Almost 100% of the time on the backs of your female cast.
And by the way,
People act like it was some vitally necessary thing but the character it happened to in the books doesn't even fucking exist in the show anymore. She was in the series premiere, that's it. So many choices have been made to add or remove things. Entire characters and plot lines have been removed, at will. $6 to $8 millions of dollars of resources at their fingertips per episode! But they wanted to keep this. They have had the freedom to explore divergent plot lines from the novels. Sansa hasn't even left the AERIE in the books. Even within the framework of alterations made for the show, they could've gone so many places with the clash at Winterfell! They removed other things, they removed PLENTY of other things. But they made the conscious decision to keep this.
That should tell you something.
And you know what else? There aren't ANY female writers or directors on the show this season. There weren't any female writers on the staff last season, either. You would think that in a show that often depicts women being silenced and in compromising positions, that at least ONE woman should be involved in the creative process, adding her voice to the 'hmm, maybe this isn't such a good idea?' pile. I guarantee - with this scene fresh in mind - and the fact that there aren't women around to advise, a lot of fans are gonna feel really squicky about the other degradation scene coming up later this season.
If you don't get that people are so upset because it -hasn't- been handled thoughtfully, maybe you need to sit back and think about the topic a lot more.
Im still mad that they cut out Lord Too-Fat-To-Sit-a-Horse aka the biggest badass in all of Westeros. When I read the books I tought it was just too good a character for the show to remove him like he doesn
t matter. Also the Davos/Skagos plotline sounded awesome, just like the Arianne wants to crown Myrcella Queen of Westeros. Instead we got Sansa in Winterfell and the Snake Shits in the "Water Gardens", what the fuck is it with the show and their refusal to show Sunspear (not even in the intro)?
Not that I'm a mod or anything, but is there too much discussion of the book here? It kinda feels like if we want to go into comparisons with the book, it'd probably be better to just take it to the book thread.
My personal opinion, the biggest problem is book spoilers, as in spoilers from the book that may still happen in the show. Next would be spoilers that would ruin something for people if they chose to read the books at some point (but that don't affect the show). Nice to try to keep that at a minimum too, though it's not as serious. Comparing to the books for stuff that already happened is okay.
We're fast approaching the point where the TV show will be considered spoilers about the books.
Yeah, to be honest, at this point, there's nothing TO spoil. Maybe like one or two minor things, but they're mostly irrelevant to this discussion or people have had the sense not to bring those moments up.
Wow, they really took a detour. I stopped following when I realized the show might actually spoil the books. You know, been waiting for the next book since before the show even started. The article about Sansa rape by Bolton was plastered on FB main page. Not sure if it's even possible to avoid possible spoilers.
If you don't get that people are so upset because it -hasn't- been handled thoughtfully, maybe you need to sit back and think about the topic a lot more.
last year carter and i were trying to come up with instances where women exist in the show that arent A) Main Characters B) Prostitutes C) hand maidens and there basically arent any
Yeah. Not completely related, but one of the things playing Telltale's Game of Thrones that I like is how the female main character in the story actually has a female friend she regularly talks to as part of her story since there's actually not that many cases of female-female interaction in the show.
The sand snakes. Margery is an ascened secundary character. Oleana is a main player but a secondary character. Stanis's wife and daughter. Theon's sister (Even though she's MIA in the series). Melisandre.
I was wondering if Yara and Margery would count as main characters? I was also thinking it was better this year than last year. Ygritte was the only character that admittedly came immidiately to mind.
I was wondering if Yara and Margery would count as main characters? I was also thinking it was better this year than last year. Ygritte was the only character that admittedly came immidiately to mind.
Margaery definitely. Her billing order is sixth or eighth now.