I'm getting some serious AlinaJames flashbacks here.
Recession Revolutions Thread Part III: Ukraine, Venezuela, Thailand
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I am Russian, and I am a lieutenant of Russian army in addition to that.(received the rank after going through training at military cathedra at my university). You see, if you receive an officer’s rank like myself while studying at Uni, you become an officer of the reserve, so you don’t have to serve any time at the army at all. (very convenient way for geeks like me to survive, cause I probably could not handle serving in army for one fricking year)
Ironically there’s no way to find out what is really happening at Ukraine for Russian people also. Media (especially our first channel on TV) tells such blatant lies it gets funny (and retarded) sometimes, so I have to read news from foreign sources. Usually what we hear on tv is the same crap – “USA supports evil Ukraine tyrants with weapons, Ukraine government breaks ceasefire three times a day”. You have to take this with a grain of salt, or don’t take it at all.
What I wanted to say, is there’s no such thing as an evil country. Many Russian people support Ukrainians and give them shelter. At my work, we had a few charity auctions and people were gathering money for those who lost their home.
As I see it, all this mess is happened because of the ambition of Ukraine politicians and Putin. Officially, theres no Russian army present in Ukraine, but there’s been several occasions when people on the streets came to me saying – “Hey, you want to help a good cause of guerilla fighters, come join us and help us fight”. So I see an option, that maybe a lot of Russian weaponry supplies end up there.Also, one of the Monky Kings posts made me cringe. Like, he wrote “Ram their economy so far into the ground they don't recover for a decade.” . that’s just an evil thing to say. So you want people to keep suffering? That’s awesome… would it be apropriate, if I wrote ”Well I hope Ukrain will not recover from the damage done, serves them right”?? your posts clearly indicate that you hate Russia, but what Russia is at its core? Well the same as Ukraine, its full of people who want to live in peace, make children and live to see a new episode of Star wars. Also it’s a country full of people who are not fine with their leader who has been ruling for 12 years or so.
All Im saying the situation is difficult as it is, there’s no need to pull more fuel into hatred between two nations.Well see duder when we're balancing people dying with a bad economy that makes the people stop dying in the thing that needs money, I'm going with the bad economy.
Because realistically with Vlad in charge that's all that's going to stop the people dying.
The people dying and the first conquestive war since….. Saddam Hussein attempted to annex Kuwait. A real terrifying prospect for the world at large to have not stopped asap.What's the alternative here to your mind? Do you think Putin and the crazies he's funding will stop without something severly distruptive?
Hell more to the point, do you think having the innate weakness and limited ability of the Russian petro-economy exposed for the short term no go creature it is...is bad long term? Ya'll were always cruising for this bruising, better the bubble pop sooner than later.
Russia seems to have accepted "The authoritarian guy makes the banks run on time" to some extent. Well no, no not really. Putin ain't no friggin' Deng Xiaoping.
And those who accept a false premise need be woken up to the truth.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Monkey King is pretty stupid, so you shouldn't take his rambling as an indication of what an actual person would think.
Yes take the advice of the guy who has posted….have you ever posted?
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I pondered a little bit, and decided that I agree with what Outerspec is saying.
Changes can only be made, if you show what an incompetent person is in charge of the country, right? There’s some truth to that.
The slight problem is that almost entire population of our country already knows that. And those 80% of the votes were cooked up by Putin’s party. -
There's no reason to trust the Russians, they've broken ceasefire and agreement after ceasefire and agreement.
Or not. That's some blatant accusations.
I don't know if it's accurate but is it true 81 percent of Russians support Putin?
I don't think it's support. You just have to vote for someone. We don't really have alternative political figure. Most of the people i spoke at work think the same.
Is he really such a fantastic leader with the way Russian economy is faltering under his watch?
So far, so good. This economical troubles have little to none affect on my life. The only difference is i can't take a vacation outside of the country. Because of the dollar prices. I suspect that goes for everyone else.
I apologize for my bad english. Take no offence
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@Robert:
Or not. That's some blatant accusations.
Is this thread your only source on what's been going on because lol.
I don't think it's support. You just have to vote for someone. We don't really have alternative political figure. Most of the people i spoke at work think the same.
How convenient for Putin that Russia does not have viable alternative political figures.
China has had more democratic leadership process than Russia has had since at least Mao's death. No viable alternatives for 15 years (lol Medvedev) is not just a thing that happens without it being fully intended upon and set up that way by the power that is.So far, so good. This economical troubles have little to none affect on my life. The only difference is i can't take a vacation outside of the country. Because of the dollar prices. I suspect that goes for everyone else.
If you live in either Moscow or St Petersburg then of course it seems light right now.
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Is this thread your only source on what's been going on because lol.
I don't follow actual news. But it seems to me that you can get completely different "facts" depending on the source.
How convenient for Putin that Russia does not have viable alternative political figures.
You hate Putin and his system. I get it. Any real reason though?
If you live in either Moscow or St Petersburg then of course it seems light right now.
I live in Ufa. It's a large city in the european Russia.
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@Robert:
I don't follow actual news. But it seems to me that you can get completely different "facts" depending on the source.
Russian State News sources (both domestic and international), conspiracy theory blogs, and blogs of far left AND far right nuts don't really count as sources.
You hate Putin and his system. I get it. Any real reason though?
lol at "his system".
Putin does not have a system, Russia is not run by some unique Sonderweg alternative. It's run by a network of mafia esque connections that front a sham democracy and get by on a mix of oil money (uh oh) and nationalist nostalgia. A combination banally common in the world past and present.
Not sure how it is this is quickly becoming you're knee-jerk defense of the "system" though.
Generally though? It's a good thing to have a system with checks and balances, assured change of power, term limits, internal debate and factions. It avoids sitting on one's ass as the economy continues being completely dependent on one sort of resource.
You can go HAW HAW WESTERN DEMOCRACY or whatever, but truth is even other authoritarian countries have more actual internal functions of the sort I just listed. China has more of that, Iran has more of that, Vietnam has more of that. Russia is a broken depressed entity. Which would be sad except it's lashing out at other countries, and that makes people mad at the "system".I live in Ufa. It's a large city in the european Russia.
Yes I know many many Russian cities. I'm not sure what the point of some anecdotal "Well I'm alright so things are fine by me" is supposed to do as an argument?
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don't really count as sources.
Well it's your point of view
Of course you have valid facts supporting all those accusations. I don't know what you trying to prove and to whom.
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@Robert:
Well it's your point of view
No no that's really not my point of view.
Please share with us some the headlines in Russia about the war right now that we, the near literal rest of the world, are just not in on.Of course you have valid facts supporting all those accusations. I don't know what you trying to prove and to whom.
You're talking like I'm grinding an axe, in this thread where a total of maybe two people have taken your stance. One of whom who was mostly just upset about being booed at Eurovision rather than the war.
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@Monkey:
You're talking like I'm grinding an axe, in this thread where a total of maybe two people have taken your stance.
This thread is mostly you ranting about how much you hate Russia. It's really not that amusing.
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This thread is mostly you ranting about how much you hate Russia. It's really not that amusing.
Shrugs It's Monkey King. You are around longer then me, you should already be aware of his close mindedness.
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two people have taken your stance
What stance is that?
I replied to opinion of my country that said something like "Russians don't see troubles they live in because media lies to them". I tried to provide my opinion on the matter.
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Shrugs It's Monkey King. You are around longer then me, you should already be aware of his close mindedness.
It's been a LONG time since I was last active here. Way before that guy joined.
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It's been a LONG time since I was last active here. Way before that guy joined.
16 characters of lol
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Every time
Every single, fucking time -
Between Putin, Akainu and a walrus, who is the manliest?
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This thread is mostly you ranting about how much you hate Russia. It's really not that amusing.
Putin's government is a bloated kleptocracy that is actively destabilizing the entire region. There's nothing amusing about it.
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Putin's government is a bloated kleptocracy that is actively destabilizing the entire region. There's nothing amusing about it.
Sooooo… just like America?
It's the dehumanization and demonization of easy targets to feel better about yourselfs. Any country that feels threatened acts in this manner, regardless of the supposed higher values they preach.
I will not even go into hypocrisy of all of this, since it seems obvious.
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…I'm not even sure how to comment on such development. Wishing ill on those who don't participate in Putin's charade game is unfortunate and was not an intention, but russian media and those that follow it makes it very easy to group Kremlin and russian population as one. I do remind myself that not everyone in Russia supports Putin (and those who openly oppose him have a hard time) but I don't really see a solution that would stop him unless Ukraine manage to take the occupied territories under the control?
! If Putin is taken out of equation the other Kremlin players still remain, are they 100% loyal to Putin goals, do they share the same mindset or do they play along to Putin's tune to continue living as they are?
! What if Ukraine finally takes control of the occupied territories by force, would that stop the flow of russian military (Tch, such a shame Russia doubled its efforts by the end of August) In theory the picture of 'overthrowing government/uprising/revolutions lead to awful results' has been made, country's economy took a huge hit that we would be recovering from for a long time. If the conflict ends then sanctions would be probably lifted fast judging by previous Russia's ventures.
! Is the prospect of Ukraine in NATO such a nightmare to Putin that he would have throw everything under the bus to prevent that?
! If Ukraine cut's its losses short, who's to say that it won't attempt to spread and connect to Crimea, now that part of the territories are assured to be under enemy's control?
! If we cave in and give the autonomy to those territories…..and throw huge amount of money at them (chechnya scenario).....lol hell no. That would be a pill too huge to swallow.
Apparently our President made a statement: "In case of ceasefire not going into effect, Martial law would be declared in whole country" something like that but that sounds like just a statement and not something our President will probably act upon. -
There is this really silly conviction that all we need to do is to take power away from Putin and it will all be a-okay.
Which is always the case with Russia, mind you. People are convinced that all we need to do is to make the current Russian goverment fall, and they will all embrace democracy and all will live happily ever after.
How about we don't try to create civil unrest in already volatile superpower with nuclear capabilities?
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Yeah, I mean, I know Russia wants the territories of the old USSR. That much is blindingly obvious. And in my view it doesn't affect the US one way or the other. It isn't going to lead to something like Russia conquering Poland or some ridiculous idea like that.
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Right why even care if Ukraine gets absorbed by Russia, right it shouldn't be your concern. Not even the fact that Ukraine gave up its nuclear warheads in return for assured 'protection' of its territorial integrity by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation(HaHA), the United States of America, and the United Kingdom in Budapest Memorandum.
Edit: It's your right not to care, but don't go preaching others that they shouldn't care about things(besides Russian media blames USA and NATO in the whole conflict already)
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Sooooo… just like America?
It's the dehumanization and demonization of easy targets to feel better about yourselfs. Any country that feels threatened acts in this manner, regardless of the supposed higher values they preach.
I will not even go into hypocrisy of all of this, since it seems obvious.
For those not "in the know", Darth is someone actively supportive of authoritarian government as a viable model.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Yeah, I mean, I know Russia wants the territories of the old USSR. That much is blindingly obvious. And in my view it doesn't affect the US one way or the other. It isn't going to lead to something like Russia conquering Poland or some ridiculous idea like that.
Yeah who gives a fuck about the people in the non-NATO countries of the former USSR.
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@Monkey:
For those not "in the know", Darth is someone actively supportive of authoritarian government as a viable model.
Yes.
As do many men and women educated in political sciences and political philosophy.
Which, if I recall you never managed to disprove it's viability beyond argument from personal incredulity.
A rather weak attempt at ad hominem on your part.
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There is this really silly conviction that all we need to do is to take power away from Putin and it will all be a-okay.
Which is always the case with Russia, mind you. People are convinced that all we need to do is to make the current Russian goverment fall, and they will all embrace democracy and all will live happily ever after.
How about we don't try to create civil unrest in already volatile superpower with nuclear capabilities?
What? Who is "we"?
No, it's Putin and his governmental policies and ambitious pride which has further entangled the Russian economy because of associated actions involving Ukraine. If there is any civil unrest it is squarely on his shoulders because he just couldn't let Ukraine go a different direction than his. Anyone who thinks Putin should just be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants because his country is "so big and powerful" has a foolish way of thinking.
Democracy does not equal happily ever after and if you believe people here are in that kind of mindset you need to check the Random News Article Discussion thread. This being a mainly American board people disagree, argue, trash, and protest mainly American policies, laws, and accountability there all the time. This is no fairy tale land so let's get that out of our heads right now. No country should be allowed to do whatever because they are a superpower. That's ridiculous.
If one can't see the benefit to big change in government like…I don't know...a change of leadership which could very well lead to a change of policy then that person probably believes the current policy is good and should not be changed.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Monkey:
For those not "in the know", Darth is someone actively supportive of authoritarian government as a viable model.
I see .
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@Monkey:
For those not "in the know", Darth is someone actively supportive of authoritarian government as a viable model.
So a Putin apologist? Yeah…. I'd rather not deal with those...
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@Lef:
So a Putin apologist? Yeah…. I'd rather not deal with those...
… How is that even remotely similar? It's like equalizing: You support democracy = You support every democracy.
Not the same.
And for the record, I consider Putin a short-sighted idiot, who really should read more Machiavelli in his spare time.
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… How is that even remotely similar? It's like equalizing: You support democracy = You support every democracy.
Not the same.
And for the record, I consider Putin a short-sighted idiot, who really should read more Machiavelli in his spare time.
Wut .
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Wut .
@Machiavelli:
A prince, therefore, being compelled knowingly to adopt the beast, ought to choose the fox and the lion; because the lion cannot defend himself against snares and the fox cannot defend himself against wolves. Therefore, it is necessary to be a fox to discover the snares and a lion to terrify the wolves. Those who rely simply on the lion do not understand what they are about.
Do you perhaps see how it could apply to the current situation.
Putin is an idiot. Or a genius hidden so deep, I cannot grasp it.
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… How is that even remotely similar? It's like equalizing: You support democracy = You support every democracy.
Not the same.
And for the record, I consider Putin a short-sighted idiot, who really should read more Machiavelli in his spare time.
Then we agree that Putin is an idiot, and by reading Machiavelli he would reach what conclusion?
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What? Who is "we"?
I was refering to the commonly held belief in western democratic nations, that every change from authoritarian goverment must lead towards betterment.
I believe it to be rooted in desire for self-vindication. Regardless, it might have given you a wrong impression, for which I apologise.
No, it's Putin and his governmental policies and ambitious pride which has further entangled the Russian economy because of associated actions involving Ukraine. If there is any civil unrest it is squarely on his shoulders because he just couldn't let Ukraine go a different direction than his. Anyone who thinks Putin should just be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants because his country is "so big and powerful" has a foolish way of thinking.
Democracy does not equal happily ever after and if you believe people here are in that kind of mindset you need to check the Random News Article Discussion thread. This being a mainly American board people disagree, argue, trash, and protest mainly American policies, laws, and accountability there all the time. This is no fairy tale land so let's get that out of our heads right now. No country should be allowed to do whatever because they are a superpower. That's ridiculous.
How things should be and how they actually are, are two different things.
Though I will point out that "let go a different direction than his" is a statement rather not reflective of what actually took place. Removal of Yanukovych from could be considered an unconstitutional coup (and let's not kid ourselfs, if the goverment in question was supportive of US, for example, it would be called exactly that). Immediatly afterwards, Ukraine renounces their neutrality, and seeks alliances with two biggest rivals of Russia, one military and one economical. It's not like he is without any indications that they may hold hostile intentions against him, major western democracies invaded foreign nations because of less obvious reasons.
Regardless. Every country should be held accountable for their actions. We should be impartial.
We are not. Both media and political bias is on Ukraine side of things, which I find slightly disconcerting. Not because I hold any great esteeme for Russia (All superpowers can go to hell, for all I care. Sanctimonious, arogant, hypocritical arseholes), but because conduct on Ukrainian part should be called into question as well, and indeed has been, for example, by Amnesty international.
Ethical rules are binding for everyone, and just because you defend your country doesn't mean you should ignore them.
If one can't see the benefit to big change in government like…I don't know...a change of leadership which could very well lead to a change of policy then that person probably believes the current policy is good and should not be changed.
A) It seems that belief is popular amongst Russian people. For which, in this very thread, they are called being manipulated. It seems to me it is the case of "you can hold any belief you want, as long as it is the same as mine". Not very democratic of you.
B) I am a political realist. I consider authoritarian form of goverment to be best from purely academic point of view, but also the hardest one to implement properly from practical one. I consider current Russian policies to be stupid and shortsighted at best, and that they could achieve much more through more subtle means. That does not mean, however, that I consider any of his potential succesors to be any better.
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@Lef:
Then we agree that Putin is an idiot, and by reading Machiavelli he would reach what conclusion?
See the quote above.
Any sort of military actions implies short-sightedness on his part. He should, by all accounts, start with political actions and propaganda, instead of outright military intervention. Stupid on his part, especially since he can hardly even create a plausible deniability for himself and those actions.
I don't have any special love for either side of this conflict. My dislike of Putin is rooted in my personal distaste for his methods, rather than some rightous fury.
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Do you perhaps see how it could apply to the current situation.
Putin is an idiot. Or a genius hidden so deep, I cannot grasp it.
Let me elaborate,
Machiavelli is known for making the most ironic book attacking and parodying in the most veiled way one member of one of the most horrible families in the history of everything so you citing the book as a recommedation as what is basically a tyrant that handles himself the same way is quite smart
but in the other hand
The author has also been misinterpreted as a really reliable manual on how to be a good government (YESH!) and citing it that way would be quite the contrary of smart.
So yeah, wut.
Edit: Oh, wait let me read your last post.
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FUCKIN WUT.
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Let me elaborate,
Machiavelli is known for making the most ironic book attacking and parodying in the most veiled way one member of one of the most horrible families in the history of everything so you citing the book as a recommedation as what is basically a tyrant that handles himself the same way is quite smart
but in the other hand
The author has also been misinterpreted as a really reliable manual on how to be a good government (YESH!) and citing it that way would be quite the contrary of smart.
So yeah, wut.
Edit: Oh, wait let me read your last post.
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FUCKIN WUT.
So how about you try to formulate actual questions and arguments? I can wait.
Also, to interpret Machiavelli's "Prince" as solely parody and irony is incredibly close-minded approach to one of the most disputed books of all times.
For the love of crap, I study ethics, philosophical antropology and political philosophy for living. I know what I'm talking about, so fucking drop the condesceding tone.
I find few things to be as annoying as condescension.
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So how about you try to formulate actual questions and arguments? I can wait.
Also, to interpret Machiavelli's "Prince" as solely parody and irony is incredibly close-minded approach to one of the most disputed books of all times.
For the love of crap, I study ethics, philosophical antropology and political philosophy for living. I know what I'm talking about, so fucking drop the condesceding tone.
I find few things to be as annoying as condescension.
Putin does politics and Governs for a living and take a look at that.
Ok, i will stop.
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Putin does politics and Governs for a living and take a look at that.
Ok, i will stop.
The difference here is that I actually need to be fairly competent at this stuff to be kept around. And he does not.
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So, what I understood from this argument is that Putin is stupid because he wasn't as efficient as he could have been in taking lands from Ukraine. Am I right?
This war is not over yet and we're talking about it like it's ancient history? Da fuk!?
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So, what I understood from this argument is that Putin is stupid because he wasn't as efficient as he could have been in taking lands from Ukraine. Am I right?
Partialy, yes.
I will also point out that he could have done it with considerably less loss of lives.
It's not like I can't understand from where he is coming from. And honestly, if the reverse happened (a major western power abolishing it's goverment, and then renouncing it's ties to NATO and EU, while also pleading for alliances with Russia before new election is held), we would expect a military intervention at best, and nobody would believe it to be spontaneous act.
Trying to consider the views of more than one side. How enlighting.
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Partialy, yes.
I will also point out that he could have done it with considerably less loss of lives.
It's not like I can't understand from where he is coming from. And honestly, if the reverse happened (a major western power abolishing it's goverment, and then renouncing it's ties to NATO and EU, while also pleading for alliances with Russia before new election is held), we would expect a military intervention at best, and nobody would believe it to be spontaneous act.
Trying to consider the views of more than one side. How enlighting.
Trying to consider a serial killer's point of view is not that enlightening. It's just a way to act like an objective person in a situation where you couldn't and shouldn't.
It's basically being robotic, to put it gently.
The problem here is seeing that any act is justifiable if it's justifiable, even if it's for the wrong reasons.
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Trying to consider a serial killer's point of view is not that enlightening. It's just a way to act like an objective person in a situation where you couldn't and shouldn't.
It's basically being robotic, to put it gently.
The problem here is seeing that any act is justifiable if it's justifiable, even if it's for the wrong reasons.
Truly? I would recommend not visiting any department of philosophy. You might get traumatized.
That is not to say I don't understand your point of view, I just can't agree with it. And if you truly believe that, I pity you.
To think I would live in the age where thinking is considered robotic.
Also.
@Sun:
If you know others and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know others but know yourself, you win one and lose one; if you do not know others and do not know yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.
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Back in Faculty we literature snobs had a name for philosophy guys like Darth. Can't really say it here, tho.
Anyway, i'm here to post this link:
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Though I will point out that "let go a different direction than his" is a statement rather not reflective of what actually took place.
It actually is pretty reflective of what took place. Yanukovych was seeking a trade pact with the EU and closer economic ties with the west but backed out of his promise and suspended talks. He then, under pressure from [insert obvious country], sought talks with Russia for a loan bailout and closer economic ties with Russia. The people revolted and threw him out of office. Why else is Russia so adamant on keeping Ukraine from joining NATO? He wants Ukraine with him. Not anyone else. You said it yourself below.
Ukraine renounces their neutrality, and seeks alliances with two biggest rivals of Russia, one military and one economical. It's not like he is without any indications that they may hold hostile intentions against him, major western democracies invaded foreign nations because of less obvious reasons.
So yeah, "he [Putin] just couldn't let Ukraine go a different direction than his" is actually pretty accurate because Ukraine was initially seeking closer ties with the west which Russia didn't like so they threatened him with trade sanctions and further economic disruption.
Regardless. Every country should be held accountable for their actions.
True, so is this why you're trying to divert attention away from Russia's actions by blaming other countries for things they've also done. If you want to discuss America toppling foreign governments to setup puppet leaders that's fine and I'm more than inclined to agree with you on those matters, but stop turning this conversation away as if we need to be educated on the sins of the evil western empire.
We should be impartial. We are not. Both media and political bias is on Ukraine side of things, which I find slightly disconcerting.
You obviously missed the Republican (a pretty major political party in the U.S.) love for Putin. Who blame Russia's aggression more on Obama than on Putin himself. Republicans 'subtly' believe Russian agression is the natural side-affect of a good testosterone filled leader.
Not because I hold any great esteeme for Russia (All superpowers can go to hell, for all I care. Sanctimonious, arogant, hypocritical arseholes), but because conduct on Ukrainian part should be called into question as well, and indeed has been, for example, by Amnesty international. Ethical rules are binding for everyone, and just because you defend your country doesn't mean you should ignore them.
No one's ignoring the protestors violations of human rights or the separatists'. I'm pretty sure we've pointed out both sides when things got down and dirty. In that case dozens of pro-Russian demonstrators were horrifically burnt to death after a group of pro-Russian agitators broke up a peaceful pro-unity rally. I believe even Lef has pointed out the Ukrainian side of things in crimes that violated international law.
A) It seems that belief is popular amongst Russian people. For which, in this very thread, they are called being manipulated. It seems to me it is the case of "you can hold any belief you want, as long as it is the same as mine". Not very democratic of you.
If people from Russia on this thread say their media is full of a bunch of 1 sided BS and admit there isn't much room for any other political candidate then…
B) I am a political realist. I consider authoritarian form of goverment to be best from purely academic point of view, but also the hardest one to implement properly from practical one. I consider current Russian policies to be stupid and shortsighted at best, and that they could achieve much more through more subtle means. That does not mean, however, that I consider any of his potential succesors to be any better.
What "subtle" alternative ideas do you have? Those subtle ideas aren't going to be taking place under internet blogging and gay rights crackdowner president Putin.
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Truly? I would recommend not visiting any department of philosophy. You might get traumatized.
That is not to say I don't understand your point of view, I just can't agree with it. And if you truly believe that, I pity you.
To think I would live in the age where thinking is considered robotic.
Condescending much? lol.
You're way of thinking only works in philosophy classrooms where everyone has read the same things and think that they've ascended over human levels, you'll always be thinking and thinking and thinking… and then you'll find the rest of the world is thinking and behaving in a different way and you won't be able to figure out why they're not following the rules you've studied in your school books.
And then you'll write a book about it...
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Tell me more about Bashar Al-Assad please.
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You're way of thinking only works in philosophy classrooms where everyone has read the same things and think that they've ascended over human levels, you'll always be thinking and thinking and thinking… and then you'll find the rest of the world is thinking and behaving in a different way and you won't be able to figure out why they're not following the rules you've studied in your school books.
And then you'll write a book about it...
Actually, if you think people people are not behaving and following the rules laid out in my books, it's because you haven't read enough of them.
Your stance is described in those books you dismiss so easily.
So don't patronize me. And don't dismiss thinks I study so easily. All that proves is your ignorance.
Tell me more about Bashar Al-Assad please.
…?
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They are claiming that for months now.
You know, if it really was Russian military equipment, one would assume some concrete proof of that would materialize by now, instead of claims. Anyone can make claims.
"Euromaidan was an American founded coup". See? A claim. It's completly baseless and stupid, but it is a claim.
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They are claiming that for months now.
You know, if it really was Russian military equipment, one would assume some concrete proof of that would materialize by now, instead of claims. Anyone can make claims.
"Euromaidan was an American founded coup". See? A claim. It's completly baseless and stupid, but it is a claim.
Do you believe Russia isn't providing them with at least lethal weaponry even when you basically acknowledged above Russia is involved in this whole affair to the point where Putin is responsible for lives lost?
http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40810&page=57&p=3414436&viewfull=1#post3414436
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It actually is pretty reflective of what took place. Yanukovych was seeking a trade pact with the EU and closer economic ties with the west but backed out of his promise and suspended talks. He then, under pressure from [insert obvious country], sought talks with Russia for a loan bailout and closer economic ties with Russia. The people revolted and threw him out of office. Why else is Russia so adamant on keeping Ukraine from joining NATO? He wants Ukraine with him. Not anyone else. You said it yourself below.
So yeah, "he [Putin] just couldn't let Ukraine go a different direction than his" is actually pretty accurate because Ukraine was initially seeking closer ties with the west which Russia didn't like so they threatened him with trade sanctions and further economic disruption.
Source? The original neutrality of Ukraine came from the 1990 declaration in independence, supported further by 1996 Ukraine constitution, and 2010 confirmation of earlier politics. None of those years corespond with major trade sanctions against Ukraine.
If anything, my research shows that Russian politics is mostly reactive towards the issue. Admittedly, it wasn't in-depth research. If you have things proving situation to be to the contrary, I would be happy to see it.
True, so is this why you're trying to divert attention away from Russia's actions by blaming other countries for things they've also done. If you want to discuss America toppling foreign governments to setup puppet leaders that's fine and I'm more than inclined to agree with you on those matters, but stop turning this conversation away as if we need to be educated on the sins of the evil western empire.
It was not my intention. I was, however, pointing that it is a political reality we currently live in. Western nations have provide precedenses, which was my point in the matter.
You obviously missed the Republican (a pretty major political party in the U.S.) love for Putin. Who blame Russia's aggression more on Obama than on Putin himself. Republicans 'subtly' believe Russian agression is the natural side-affect of a good testosterone filled leader.
Perhaps I have misinterpreted american politics. Because I seem to remember John McCain, whom I believe to be republican, being bordeline agreesive in his support of Ukraine.
And since when political extremes are equal to impartiality?
No one's ignoring the protestors violations of human rights or the separatists'. I'm pretty sure we've pointed out both sides when things got down and dirty. In that case dozens of pro-Russian demonstrators were horrifically burnt to death after a group of pro-Russian agitators broke up a peaceful pro-unity rally. I believe even Lef has pointed out the Ukrainian side of things in crimes that violated international law.
True, but my statement was about political and media side of things, not this thread. Which seem pretty intend on ignoring any misconduct on Ukrainian side of things or outright painting it as Russian schemes.
Again, if you have things that show to the contrary, I will be happy to see it.
If people from Russia on this thread say their media is full of a bunch of 1 sided BS and admit there isn't much room for any other political candidate then…
I was being slightly sarcastic. Nevertheless, I don't actually see solution to that problem, and shaking my fist at evil Russians seems counterproductive.
What "subtle" alternative ideas do you have? Those subtle ideas aren't going to be taking place under internet blogging and gay rights crackdowner president Putin.
Not going to go into details, since it would be seen as provocative by some people and make them completly miss my point. Regardless, I don't think military intervetion was a right move from him from rational point of view.
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Do you believe Russia isn't providing them with at least lethal weaponry even when you basically acknowledged above Russia is involved in this whole affair to the point where Putin is responsible for lives lost?
http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40810&page=57&p=3414436&viewfull=1#post3414436
I believe that blackmarket military hardware can only take you so far.
Nevertheless, I considered it either sign of immense incompetence, or something being amiss that all of the observers, and military personal on the scene have yet to present even one concrete proof of it being so. Especially in the light of conflicting reports on part of Ukrainian goverment in the pass.
Making claims for months just make you look silly.
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Darth, you're not bringing any solutions to the table. If all of this was about analyzing things from different perspective then that was done already before, is it really necessary to mention this? Not really. If it been another country in familiar situation with sides reversed we would still have this thread (minus myself because I prefer to stay in the sidelines watching). It's pointless. I don't possibly see where you want to go with all of this.
Evidence, here the latest one link - Tornado-S, Ukraine with as shitty army as it had for all those years don't have that weapon, its only used in Russia.
"Source? The original neutrality of Ukraine came from the 1990 declaration in independence, supported further by 1996 Ukraine constitution, and 2010 confirmation of earlier politics. None of those years corespond with major trade sanctions against Ukraine.
If anything, my research shows that Russian politics is mostly reactive towards the issue. Admittedly, it wasn't in-depth research. If you have things proving situation to be to the contrary, I would be happy to see it."
What the hell that got to do with anything. Russia been banning products because they found them not up to standards (like month or longer before Yanukovych turned down that deal), then implements some new system to cross the border for transporting goods, creating huge lines and unhappy people. Then started hinting at gas prices, debts, said the Ukraine won't be able to keep a good economical ties with Russia's version of economical union.
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@Lef:
Darth, you're not bringing any solutions to the table. If all of this was about analyzing things from different perspective then that was done already before, is it really necessary to mention this? Not really. If it been another country in familiar situation with sides reversed we would still have this thread (minus myself because I prefer to stay in the sidelines watching). It's pointless. I don't possibly see where you want to go with all of this.
Random musings on the situation, since it is impossible to ignore. I consider discussion to be a wet stone for the blade of intellect, if I was being poetic.
And as far as I can tell, nobody is bringing any solutions to the table. As far as I can tell, Putin went too far to back down now. Poroszenko can't back down either, since majority of his electorat are western Urkainians, favoring nationalistic and anti-russian stances, at the moment. Eastern Ukrainians don't seem to care either way, as far as I can tell siding with whichever side currently holds the territory.
I expect escalation. Since it is impossible to force complete cease fire on irregular forces such as separatists, cease fire is going to be broken with 24 hours. I fully expect Martial Law to be implemented.
@Lef:
Evidence, here the latest one link - Tornado-S, Ukraine with as shitty army as it had for all those years don't have that weapon, its only used in Russia
That is, however, circumstantial.
I fully believe that Russia supports separatist with weapons. However, I still find the fact that nothing but circumstantial evidence materialised baffling.
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Random musings on the situation, since it is impossible to ignore. I consider discussion to be a wet stone for the blade of intellect, if I was being poetic.
From this point on i refuse to believe you're not a mock account.
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From this point on i refuse to believe you're not a mock account.
Right…
I forgot that it's the internet.
You know what? Pretend I was never here. Evidently even my most basic worldviews are incomprehensible to you people, so I don't think anything meaningful will come out of it.
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Is there some kind of roleplay with these kind of theme accounts in here? Maybe i can be the scholar that tries to be hip and cool to the students.