I'll see if I will be able to go see this movie tomorrow.
Pacific Rim (Giant Robots vs Giant Monsters)
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I feel like the whole character stuff has been the main detractor to this movie by many people, and when I went in I was aware that it could be a problem.
But still, I didn't feel it while watching it. I found myself immersed enough in the story to enjoy all performances, and I'm personally glad the entire movie wasn't just robots fighting. Because while that was fun, it meant more to me knowing the pilots had a personality, however simple that may have been.
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Five minutes, no literally five minutes would have been enough to learn everything we needed about those one note characters, we didn't need to waste half the freakin' movie on them.
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Matter of opinion. Personally, Idris Elba's character alone could have carried a whole movie.
I also imagine that had we gotten only five minutes of the characters, the complain by people/critics would have been that there wasn't enough character development.
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Matter of opinion.
No, it really isn't. Tell me, what can you describe about the characters without mentioning their appearances? What did we learn about the Chinese pilots or the Russian pilots? What did we learn about the Australian pilot other than he's an asshole who has daddy issues? What did we learn about the two leads as characters? We learned that Mako suffered a personal trauma as a child and hates the monsters for killing her family. That's it. All established in one scene. Didn't really learn anything else. We learned absolutely nothing about the other dude whose entire charcter can be described as whitebread. The entire first forty-five minutes didn't really go into building up the characters at all. It just focused on these nothing characters doing nothing but spout off stereotypical cliches.
Personally, Idris Elba's character alone could have carried a whole movie.
Idris Elba and Ron Perlman were the two shining stars in the movie. If the focus were on just them, I'd have been satisfied. But nope, we got to focus on the two boring leads and their nothing relationship.
I also imagine that had we gotten only five minutes of the characters, the complain by people/critics would have been that there wasn't enough character development.
But there wasn't any character development (except Idris Elba, again shining star). And honestly, I think you accidentally gave the problem of the movie in a nutshell. It's like the movie felt it had an obligation to give an illusion of characterization without actually giving us the characterization.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also, I'd like to add that assuming all that character "development" was necessary, there were better ways to go about it that concentrating it all in the first act. You could have started off with these cocky, stereotypical characters and thrown them into a conflict. We could learn about them from there, we'd have these rough archetypes, fully formed and then we as the audience could see how they react to extreme pressures, see their emotions, see how they handle the danger, a good writer can throw in tidbits here and there that build up the character as the character is undergoing their personal trials so that we end up learning and growing up with them. But nope, didn't get any of that clever writing. Let's just cram it all in the first act.
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Have to agree with Thousand Lion-chan.
Sure, there has to be some human scenes, but they took the screentime too much. You folks might hate me for this but the amount of screentime the human characters get is about the same as Bayformers.
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I'll never say this movie was anywhere near as bad as that though. It was still an enjoyable movie for one thing…
Yeah, the humans got an excessive amount of screentime but their biggest sin was being boring and unmemorable not unimaginably annoying. Plus you could actually follow the fight scenes.
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@Thousand:
No, it really isn't.
Um, I enjoyed the movie spending more than five minutes on characters. That is definitely an opinion.
It is definitely your opinion that five minutes would have been enough.I'm not saying characterization is at the stupidly awesome levels of something like Firefly/Serenity. Of course there were flaws in the storytelling, mostly from the fact there were clichés and tropes all over the place and the "twists" were predictable miles away.
What I'm saying, the part that is MY OPINION is that such elements don't break the movie. The movie still felt balanced to me and all the human stuff in the middle, while perhaps not building up all characters effectively, certainly made me interested in the world so that by the time the fights took place I actually gave a damn about them winning.
I can respect that your opinion is that the lack of character broke the movie. I'd appreciate if you respect my opinion that it didn't matter and the movie was still thoroughly enjoyable. -
Um, I enjoyed the movie spending more than five minutes on characters. That is definitely an opinion.
It is definitely your opinion that five minutes would have been enough.I'm not saying characterization is at the stupidly awesome levels of something like Firefly/Serenity. Of course there were flaws in the storytelling, mostly from the fact there were clichés and tropes all over the place and the "twists" were predictable miles away.
What I'm saying, the part that is MY OPINION is that such elements don't break the movie. The movie still felt balanced to me and all the human stuff in the middle, while perhaps not building up all characters effectively, certainly made me interested in the world so that by the time the fights took place I actually gave a damn about them winning.
I can respect that your opinion is that the lack of character broke the movie. I'd appreciate if you respect my opinion that it didn't matter and the movie was still thoroughly enjoyable.Dude, it's not an opinion that the movie didn't use that time to explore any of the characters or show us more facets to the characters aside from the superficial elements that we got on first appearance. Again, tell me a single thing about any of the pilots without describing their appearances. A single thing. And no, stoic doesn't count. The entire first act was just dicking around in the base and having cliche characters repeating their cliche shtick over and over. We never learned anything new, they never grew up as characters, we got everything we ultimately ended up knowing about them from their first appearance. This isn't opinion, this is what happened in the movie. It's certainly your opinion that you liked all that pointless attention to them but regards to whether it actually added anything to the story, you're flat out wrong.
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I don't think you're even paying attention to what I'm saying, you just keep asking me to make arguments that can prove you right. While that sort of validation might be important to you, it really isn't to me.
Just read my other post over and over again until you're satisfied, because I believe it was clear enough. -
You're saying all that time spent focusing on the characters was important to learn everything we needed about them. Yet…you can't even give a single distinguishing personality trait on any of them let alone a multitude of traits that apparently needed half a movie to explore. What?lol
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I saw it yesterday and DAMN was it fun!
I agree with the "clichéd and thinly-written main characters" argument that seems to be the gripe of many people who've seen the movie. They were alright and likeable, but there weren't all that interesting.
But everything that had to do with Jaegers and Kaijus … i just couldn't get enough of it. They could have been another 30 minutes of fights, i totally would've loved it. And everything looked beautiful, especially the fight within Hong Kong.Although i wouldn't say the story was stupid or anything like that. It was simple and straightforward fun and that's what i paid for.
! I actually was more sad that the russian and chinese Jaegers were destroyed but didn't care that much about the characters inside them. A scene or two with both crews that actually tell us something more about them would have been nice.
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Saw it last night. Everyone I've talked to agreed that the writing was terrible and the characters were shallow, but the fights were so awesome that it didn't matter. I kind of agree. The fights suffered from a lot of really bad tropes also present in similar animes. Like not using good attacks/weapons until you're losing the battle. Or doing really pointless shit like picking up a monster and throwing it back in the ocean. Yeah that sounds super effective… I was expecting some kind of back-breaker or limb tearing to occur but nope. Also it was stupid how the sword was easily the best weapon and it only got used as a last resort. Punching the thing for a while is probably better right?
Anyway it was entertaining.
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! I'd prefer if they never touched this again and left it as it's own contained story. Everything gets pretty much wrapped up perfectly, and too many movies try to milk the idea, only to ruin it. If anything, do a prequel with some of the earlier robots like Tacit Ronin, Coyote Tango and co.
Prequel is the way to go with this. It would allow us to see all the Jaegers from the different areas, it would expand the world in terms of who are the awesome pilots and how the ones in the movie got started, and
! it would grant us the chance to see Idris Elba in full, Kaiju-killing mood. Heck, I'd pay to see a movie based on his character's origin story, ending with his promotion into the job he had in the movie
@All:
I agree with prequel movie. Need to see dat Tacit Ronin in her full glory.
Well, that settles it. Sign me up for a prequel!
Just have Idris Elba as the lead actor fighting solo against Kaiju, along with some of the older Jaegars.
I'd love to see that. -
But the two loeads had great chemistry and I enjoyed watching them together. The giant robot fights are meaningless if you don't care about anyone. You might think that hour of time getting to know the characters was a waste, but if it WASN'T there then the robot fights would be as empty as Transformers and you'd be bored quick.
Also, ROn Pearlman was awesome as always.
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@RobbyBevard:
Also, ROn Pearlman was awesome as always.
Also this.
And yeah the characters had good chemistry, and hell they were even well-acted. They were just very poorly written.
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@RobbyBevard:
But the two loeads had great chemistry and I enjoyed watching them together. The giant robot fights are meaningless if you don't care about anyone. You might think that hour of time getting to know the characters was a waste, but if it WASN'T there then the robot fights would be as empty as Transformers and you'd be bored quick.
Also, ROn Pearlman was awesome as always.
I didn't care about them regardless so…? Yeah, they had great chemistry but they were so bland and uninteresting and poorly written, I didn't care. And that's just the two leads let alone the other pilots. Tell me, when the Chinese or the Russians died, did you cry or feel anything? I certainly didn't. Again, I wouldn't have minded a 45 minute buildup if all the characters were as well written and awesome as Idris Elba's was. I also wouldn't have minded them being so one dimensional if they were only focused on for a short period of time, it'd be like those cheesy monster movies of the past, it would have added charm to the movie. But trying to give us one of those cheesy monster movies played straight where all those cheesy characters are put under a microscope? No, doesn't work. At least it didn't work for me.
Also, I'd like to reiterate my previous point. We could learn about them as the story is moving along like fighting or recovering from a battle or strategizing. You didn't need to stop the movie dead for 45 minutes where absolutely nothing happened. Great fight choreography where we see the character struggle and show his professionalism and his competence along with some clever characterization can go a long way in making the audience care for a character they know nothing about. That feeling of "wow, I don't know anything about this guy but he's giving it his all, I want him to win". Showing a character struggle in a humane way is far more effective in making someone care about a character than forty five minutes of cliched high school drama antics.
And yeah, Ron Perlman was awesome though you could have cut out his entire subplot and it wouldn't have effected the movie in the slightest but yeah, he was awesome and his scene at the end more than justified his inclusion.
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I thought it was pretty terrible, mostly as a result of the characters. The fights didn't do much for me either, though the second one had some really cool moments. There isn't much criticism I could add that hasn't already been said.
On the plus-side:
! I liked the subplot involving the Kaiju brains. It was an interesting and neat application of the drift technology. Actually, the only time I ever enjoyed the drifting aspect of the movie was when the two scientists decided to do it together. It was just a nice, cheesy bonding moment between two minor characters.
! It made no sense why Ron Pearlman's character completely forgot about the brain and went ahead with his plan without following up, but at that point I stopped asking questions.
! And my favorite moment in the whole film was when the Kaiju revealed its wings. There was just something about it that made me smile. I'm a sucker for flying monsters.Other than that, it fell flat for me. It was competently done, but boring. I'd be very interested in an improved sequel, however.
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I agree. All those "drama" moments were dragged out.
! Not enough Cherno Alpha. It was rusty walking bucket, but it was our rusty walking bucket, and whole theater cheered on its short moment of glory. (Even if its team looked like some kind of vinking/punk hybrids).
Also I would like to see more of Chinese team. They were just some kung-fu brothers and then they died. Learning more about them would have been a lot more interesting than watch australian guy being a jerk for half-hour.
! 1. Make that whole part base part twice as short and more to the point and you will get all development and investiment necessary.- Extend Sydney fight,
- Add one more fight sequence for CT and CA where they win.
- Make Ron Perlman hang out at shatterdome.
- I would also say "less scientists", but Burn Gorman makes me nostalgic for Torchwood, and I was glad to see him.
Honestly, I went to this movie to experience brainless adventure with monster-punching, which would throw all kinds of awesome moments at me non-stop. And then second act at base completely killed momentum. Shortly after I watched Godzilla Final Wars on tv, and got everything I wanted from PR. I don't know if thats because PR tries too hard to be somewhat serious, or its serious case of misled expectations.
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@Thousand:
Movie critique.
Not to touch the main thrust of your point at all, as it isn't exactly unfounded, but I'm really baffled that you keep on bringing up the Russian and Chinese pilots as if they're shining examples of what you're talking about. Your complaint, near as I can tell from you reiterating it over the course of four or five posts, is that the movie spent too much time 'characterizing' its heroes, while failing to actually achieve any reasonable degree of characterization whatsoever. Again, fair enough complaint.
It just doesn't apply to the Russian and Chinese pilots at all.
Certainly the latter half does; the closest I can think of any sort of characterization for either of them is 'stoic' for the Russians. However, the reason they ended up not at all characterized is that no time was spent attempting to do so in the first place. They were introduced, and seen in a few scenes, but nothing ever made any attempt to focus on them. Considering that you seem to be saying that you would have preferred the movie simply not even try for characterization to wasting time failing at it, the fact that you keep bringing up those characters frankly seems extremely disingenuous to me, at best.
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@Panda:
Not to touch the main thrust of your point at all, as it isn't exactly unfounded, but I'm really baffled that you keep on bringing up the Russian and Chinese pilots as if they're shining examples of what you're talking about. Your complaint, near as I can tell from you reiterating it over the course of four or five posts, is that the movie spent too much time 'characterizing' its heroes, while failing to actually achieve any reasonable degree of characterization whatsoever. Again, fair enough complaint.
It just doesn't apply to the Russian and Chinese pilots at all.
Certainly the latter half does; the closest I can think of any sort of characterization for either of them is 'stoic' for the Russians. However, the reason they ended up not at all characterized is that no time was spent attempting to do so in the first place. They were introduced, and seen in a few scenes, but nothing ever made any attempt to focus on them. Considering that you seem to be saying that you would have preferred the movie simply not even try for characterization to wasting time failing at it, the fact that you keep bringing up those characters frankly seems extremely disingenuous to me, at best.
Not at all, my argument isn't that we wasted too much time characterizing its heroes, it's that we spent too much time FOCUSING on them. A big distinction. If the movie had actually used the first act to explore the characters, given us different aspects to their personalities, explored their histories, their motivations, assuming that it was done well, I would not be complaining. But we didn't learn anything new or discover anything knew about these characters outside the initial introduction (with the exception of Mako's character where all we learn is that monsters destroyed her city and probably ate her parents all of which we learned in one flashback that took five to ten minutes, that's it and nothing else in the first act). All it was in the first act is the same repetitious shtick of Whitebread wanting Mako to be his pilot, Idris Elba saying no, they do a team bonding exercise lather rinse repeat with scenes of Iceman from Top Gun going "You're dangerous
MaverickRaleigh" thrown in for good measure. And the reason I keep bringing up the other two teams is to emphasize my point, where did the time go? All that time was apparently necessary for building up the pilot characters…yet half of them were absolutely squandered and the other half weren't much better off. Why was no time used to build them up? Wouldn't the movie have been much stronger if we actually cared when they died?Down to brass tacks, my argument can be summarized as if you're going to give us such boring, stereotypical one dimensional characters, don't focus so much on them. If you're going to dedicate a period of your movie on building up the characters, actually build up the characters and try and make them interesting and memorable. Do one or the other, don't do both.
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One of the major fight ends with obligatory
! point blank range BREAST FIREEEEEEEEEEEE
Okay, this alone convinces me to go see the movie. Since this happens, the movie is an automatic win for me.
Though, it is a shame there probably isn't a three piece robot piloted by three hot blooded archetypes that run on pure adrenaline. A missed opportunity there…
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There is a 3 armed jaeger piloted by Chinese triplets. It doesnt get alot of focus tho
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Guys just stop replying to TLC. He seriously doesn't know when to stop. I was wrong about the movie getting pulled from theaters In NYC. I saw it again in theaters on Saturday with a group, this time in 2D. The theater was packed which is a good sign. And it's 72% on rotten tomatoes isn't hurting it at all compared to superman and ripd.
It was definitely much better in 3D and I'm gonna try to see it in IMAX 3D before it leaves theaters. I loved everything about the movie honestly and I've seen it 3 times now. I'm a power rangers fan, a giant robot fan, and a teamwork fan. This movie was just everything for me. The only parts I didn't like we're that the Austrialian son was a jerk for what basically amounted to no reason. I loved the story with Mako and the lead because they didn't kiss at the end and that sets up room for a real meaningful relationship in a sequel. Just really fucking loved this film
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Also am I the only person here who made a terrible Mako Reactor joke at some point during the movie?
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So, nobody is reporting on this because its a boring news story, and its much more interesting to say "the big blockbuster is a flop compared to an Adam Sandler movie!" or "Despicable Me 2 is making a gillion dollars!" BUT
Pacific Rim while only grossing 37 mill its first weekend… Grossed 31 mill its second. that's very little dropoff at all. Overall word of mouth is possibly going to give it legs.
But really the interesting part is that it's foreign take is already $110 mill, so it's sitting at 178. So while its not going to be anything near Despicable me (which is at about 600 mill worldwide), so while its not going to set any records, its probably going to do fine. (and the Sandler movie did nothing overseas, but no duh.)
@Thousand:
If the movie had actually used the first act to explore the characters, given us different aspects to their personalities, explored their histories, their motivations, assuming that it was done well,
It did all of those things.
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Really happy the movie is doing well. As someone who saw it abroad, I can testify that it is indeed gaining ground considerably and remaining in theaters while stuff like World War Z and Lone Ranger are quickly taken out of rotation.
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@RobbyBevard:
It did all of those things.
Tell me about the Russians.
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@Thousand:
Down to brass tacks, my argument can be summarized as if you're going to give us such boring, stereotypical one dimensional characters, don't focus so much on them. If you're going to dedicate a period of your movie on building up the characters, actually build up the characters and try and make them interesting and memorable. Do one or the other, don't do both.
You say this as if the writers set out to purposely give you "boring" characters, to then punish you by watching them waddle around. People write what they think is good, and might be good for some, or enough, or more.
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You say this as if the writers set out to purposely give you "boring" characters, to then punish you by watching them waddle around. People write what they think is good, and might be good for some, or enough, or more.
I can't say what was going through their minds when they wrote the movie the way they did. Probably something along the lines of giving generic stock characters that are easily digestible for an audience whilst at the same time feeling the need to give a character relationship because they felt the need that the movie needed to show a level of depth that it really didn't need nor were they capable of providing adequately. I don't know, this is all my assumption, I freely admit that, take my theory with a huge sack of salt.
All I know is that the characters given to us with the exception of Idris Elba and Ron Perlman were shallow, one note characters whose personality and character didn't extend past their archetype/stereotype. Now if you managed to find something meaningful out of these characters, good for you. All I know is that I've seen these characters a million times before and will keep seeing them a million times more because hack writers find them so safe and easy to write. They certainly weren't characters, at least in my opinion, that deserved the amount of momentum-killing focus that they got.
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Even if it is very obvious that the characters are pretty one note and basic, the whole purpose of the movie was focus in the monsters and the robots. From the posters (that show none of the actors) to the casting (pretty bland actors, except Elba and Perlman and the scientist), the first and only purpose was to set the stage for the fights. All the robots got their presentation, something u can´t say for the pilots of Russia and China for example. But again, is all about the action. And even with a script full of cliches, things like the Kaiju Church, Kaiju museum, the black market and that pathetic wall, shown a world building more rich than most of blockbusters out there. Is the movie a masterpiece? Hell no, is the movie a fun watch without the need of toilet humour a la Transformers, hell yeah!!
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Yes, I agree the focus was the monster battles and if we got plenty of those monster battles, I wouldn't care about the shallow characters. This is Monsters vs Robots fighting. What do you want? A character study? Hell no! I wanted Robot on Kaiju action. Which is why I am so baffled why the movie decided to give us a character study on those shallow characters instead…
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This movie has Stringer Bell heading a program that uses giant robots to fight giant monsters right?
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While the two main characters weren't the most interesting, they were definetely very likeable. Since the focus of the movie was on them getting to know each other and working together as a team, i didn't mind the lack of character development since it was not required here. Some people may think different about it but the handling of the characters fit in the style of the movie. I'm sure Del Toro knew what he was doing, since he has proven that he can write some deep and interesting characters.
It's not like this movie has people at the level of Transformers or the likes. I didn't find anyone annoying or stupid. Most of them were really sympathetic and easy to root for.And you need to spend time with characters to get to know them and learn their motivations. Just because they don't have that deep personaility doesn't mean you can neglect them. I enjoyed the character interaction between the two leads, even if it wasn't nearly as cool as the goddamn amazing action.
Man i really have problems explaining my opinion in English here … i hope it still makes sense ...
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@Thousand:
Tell me about the Russians.
The Russians and the Chinese weren't the focus, and died in the first fight, it was fine for them to be background decoration. That they were there at all was nice, they were just representing the world at large. If it were a tv series with 26 episodes and 8 hours to burn, I'm sure we would have gotten to know them better, but as a stand alone, they were fodder. I wanted to see more of them too, that's a GOOD thing. But its absolutely asinine for you to want them to showcase a cast of 15, but then also complain about them spending an hour on a cast of 8-10.
It focused on the three leads, (plus a dead brother) the two australians, the two scientists, and Ron Pearlman just fine. Juggling 8 main characters (with heavy focus on three of them, including a very sincere bond and relationship that wasn't just typical straightforward romantic/sexual) along with a shitload of world building, and yes, giant monster robot battles? It balanced just fine and that hour of buildup was great.
@Thousand:
Yes, I agree the focus was the monster battles and if we got plenty of those monster battles,
So, seven battles (plus background examples) in 2 hours isn't enough? (They even had a person sized martial arts tournament in there as an added bonus!)
It sounds like you just wanted the movie to be either completely brainless fighting, or 8 hours long mini-series. So it's really weird that you complain about it being both dumb and too long, and that it hit a sweet spot middle-ground of characters AND action is what's messing with you.
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TLC you are so predictable SO predictable Holy and I should've taken BETS I would be SO rich
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Is TLC doing that thing he does whenever a movie comes out where he finds some incredibly small detail and he rants about it for five pages
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@Cyan:
Is TLC doing that thing he does whenever a movie comes out where he finds some incredibly small detail and he rants about it for five pages
Apparently he thought the movie was about the russians and is upset the main characters got screen time and character development instead.
Also the movie was either too smart or too brainless, not sure which. Also, it was too long while being too short.
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@Thousand:
I can't say what was going through their minds when they wrote the movie the way they did.
Well what an odd thing to say. What was going through their mind is that they were writing the best possible movie they know how to write. Some are good writers and some are not. If you wrote bad a movie I wouldn't be watching it thinking, "Lion-chan must've been high." Even Uwe Boll writes what he believes is awesome. It's crap but he doesn't know any better.
@Thousand:
Probably something along the lines of giving generic stock characters that are easily digestible for an audience whilst at the same time feeling the need to give a character relationship because they felt the need that the movie needed to show a level of depth that it really didn't need nor were they capable of providing adequately. I don't know, this is all my assumption, I freely admit that, take my theory with a huge sack of salt.
I haven't seen the film so I can't say much. I'll say that even a huge film like this needs heart. Robot vs monsters for two hours would've been my dream as a child, but not now. So they wrote what they could, the best they could, so we could get to know the men operating the robots. Worked for some, didn't for others. But that's how it is. If you're upset that they put in character development - which didn't work for you - in the first place, then …
I'm confused. I can understand saying you don't like what's there but saying that it shouldn't have been there at all, that the writers should have been somehow magically aware of their, uhm, lack of understanding of writing good development and ... I don't know. I'm lost.
@Thousand:
hack writers
Guillermo?
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From what I hear, the director's cut was about three hours long; apparently a lot of the cut material dealt with Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon's crews.
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From what I hear, the director's cut was about three hours long; apparently a lot of the cut material dealt with Cherno Alpha and Crimson Typhoon's crews.
Does this mean there will be an extended edition dvd?
ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease
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@RobbyBevard:
The Russians and the Chinese weren't the focus, and died in the first fight, it was fine for them to be background decoration. That they were there at all was nice, they were just representing the world at large. If it were a tv series with 26 episodes and 8 hours to burn, I'm sure we would have gotten to know them better, but as a stand alone, they were fodder. I wanted to see more of them too, that's a GOOD thing. But its absolutely asinine for you to want them to showcase a cast of 15, but then also complain about them spending an hour on a cast of 8-10.
Way to miss my point, dude. I know what they are. I know they're background fodder. I take issue with the lazy writing of throwing stereotypical characters just to kill them off especially since these were like one of a core group of limited characters and it would have been so much more interesting and dramatic if you know, you actually cared about them when they died but fine, they're fluff, just there to fill space. The problem is that for all that time spent on building up the main characters, the main leads were about as interesting and well developed as the Chinese. And the movie spent a huge chunk on those characters. That's what I have a problem with.
@RobbyBevard:
It focused on the three leads,
Two of them with the personality of dead wood. And Idris Elba but he alone couldn't support the movie.
@RobbyBevard:
(plus a dead brother)
Who we only saw in the first five minutes and got immediately killed off. I sure cared when he died.
@RobbyBevard:
the two australians,
Whose only defining characteristic is that they speak with an aussie accent. Yeah they got one good scene where I actually kinda cared about them way at almost the end of the movie but didn't really make up for the rest of the movie where the character was nothing more than a shallow foil.
@RobbyBevard:
the two scientists,
You mean the extraneous comic relief characters.
@RobbyBevard:
and Ron Pearlman just fine.
Ron Perlman was so excessive in this movie. I mean I loved him and his awesomeness but you could have easily cut him and the whole getting a new brain Mcguffin subplot out of the movie and it wouldn't have really changed a thing.
@RobbyBevard:
Juggling 8 main characters (with heavy focus on three of them, including a very sincere bond and relationship that wasn't just typical straightforward romantic/sexual) along with a shitload of world building, and yes, giant monster robot battles? It balanced just fine and that hour of buildup was great.
I don't know what else to say but you're wrong. The buildup was awful. The characters were bland, uninteresting, never went past their superficial elements, we never really learned anything about them. Again, tell me ONE thing about our characters without describing what they looks like that ISN'T a stereotype. ONE thing. Because I can't.
@RobbyBevard:
So, seven battles (plus background examples) in 2 hours isn't enough?
Only two of those seven battles were any good, the battles against those level four Kaiju. It showed a large array of creativity and strategy and well done fight choreography that I was expecting from the movie. The first one was decent, passable as a way to whet our appetite for the real action to start. The final fights are very underwhelming consisting of one shot kills, an environment where you can barely see anything and a bomb to cheat us out of a good fight (yeah noble sacrifice, yadda yadda). The death throes of the level five were kinda cool but compared to the bag of tricks the flying level four was? Can't even compare.
@RobbyBevard:
(They even had a person sized martial arts tournament in there as an added bonus!)
You know they added that scene in just as a contrived attempt to throw in an action beat into what was obviously to the writers a boring movie at that point right?
@RobbyBevard:
It sounds like you just wanted the movie to be either completely brainless fighting, or 8 hours long mini-series.So it's really weird that you complain about it being both dumb and too long, and that it hit a sweet spot middle-ground of characters AND action is what's messing with you.
It did NOT hit that spot. If the movie wanted to focus on the characters, make them good characters. Give them personalities, backstories, interesting motivations. It's why I love movies like Avengers or Die Hard. Not because of the action scenes but because of the characters, because they're that fucking good characters. The characters in this movie were NOT good. They were done and done characters seen in a million other movies with shallow, stereotypical characteristics and absolutely nothing interesting about them. And you know what? That would have been fine if the movie didn't spend so much goddamn time with them. The movie thinks its characters are good so it keeps trying to tell a story about them when there is absolutely nothing to tell. If you don't have good characters, focus on the action because the action, when we saw it, was fucking awesome. But we didn't so we had to suffer a full hour of boring, bland characters before we actually got any action. And the action AFTER the main set piece wasn't that good either. And you guys are surprised I didn't love the movie? And I say love because I liked the movie overall. It had gorgeous cinematography, the good action pieces were really good, Ron Perlman and Idris Elba were fantastic. All that was enough to make it decent. But if the movie had used its time better, cut out all the generic cliche shit that bogs down action films, the stock characters, the cliche, shallow highschool drama antics, it would have been a godly film. Or it could have embraced those cliches and just been an extremely entertaining B movie like Robot Jox, that's fine too. Instead it tried to do a bit of both, taking the worst aspects of both paths instead of the best and just ended up being a meh movie. And that's the big shame of it.
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We apparently saw different movies TLC.
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Still waiting for an answer to my Plinkett Test fyi.
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@Thousand:
Still waiting for an answer to my Plinkett Test fyi.
"Hey, quick, describe something, but don't use any of the methods people ever use to describe anything."
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@RobbyBevard:
We apparently saw different movies TLC.
Why do you even bother arguing with him? For one, he subtly adapts and twists his complaints every time you prove him wrong. It's like a debate with a conspiracy theorist who thinks the moon landing was faked but by the time you finish debunking myths, the topic is actually whether or not quantum mechanics proves the existence of intelligent alien life and how they are manipulating the minds of congressmen.
More importantly he has this fantasy world in his head where he envisions The Perfect Movie, according entirely to his arbitrary and nonsensical standards, and is willing to type a dissertation about why anything that doesn't match his vision to the most minute detail is a disastrous piece of shit that everyone should feel bad for liking and of course everyone cares what he thinks because… why again? Why should anyone care when all he does is complain and insult?
You're never going to change his mind because he is incapable of introspection or of considering outside opinions, and moreover he doesn't understand the concept that his delusions aren't universal truths.
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The Plinkett test? Fine, I'll do it without mentioning robots, monsters, their professions, (though being a doctor instantly makes a character different from a pilot or a general or a balckmarket dealer) or their appearances, (so no tatoos or canes or Ron Pearlman's awesome boots.)
Raleigh-Honest man that believes in protecting the innocent and helping others. Will go out of his way to avoid excess damage and losses. Willing to stand up to authority when he thinks they're wrong. Begins by dealing with the loss of his brother and being a super star, and losing his sense of self worth, but doesn't prevent him from doing what needs doing, and he pulls himself back up. He'll confront anyone that gets in his way or offends his friends.He's confident and outgoing, though he's a little terrified on the inside that he's no longer good enough. Never really thought about the future or finding a girl to be with, until it started coming out in his bond with Mako.
Mako- Suffered a tragedy as a child, but was saved by a heroic figure, and became obsessed with pleasing him, and being like him. While Raleigh's loss cripples him, her loss drives her endlessly to compete and become better, to be good enough. However, her relationship with that same heroic figure gets in the way of this. She studied hard, and presents a humble demeanor, partly because she knows she is so good and among the best, but is unwilling to challenge her replacement father/hero out of deep respect.
Both of them after their initial bonding experience open up immensely and start smiling much more and showing moments of sincerity and actual happiness, while they were both fairly upset with their situations beforehand. Their bond is more personal and intimate than just a typical movie sexual romance, they don't even kiss in the course of the movie… but will absolutely have a future together and they're really sweet together.
Stacker- A former hero, self sacrificing to a fault, wants to save everyone and carries the weight of the world on his shoulders, almost literally. Puts on a facade of a stoic man because he believes that's what his men needs to see, hides his weaknesses and his illnesses, but he cares deeply for those under his charge, in particular Rinko who he loves like a daughter and wants to protect. He commands respect and is authoritative, and he earned every inch of it... he IS the show he puts on... except in a very private personal moment where he shows he can do something as sentimental as retain and preserve a memento for over a decade.
Newton- Obsessed and geeky, totally in love with a thing that nobody else understands, a social misfit that goes to extremes for his love, but brilliant and outgoing in his own way. Does not fit in well with others. Willing to take a crazy risk with little concern for the possible side effects. A bit more of an everyman than the rest of the cast, that worships the others in a way.
Herman-stuffy and bookish phlegmatic introvert , clearly suffered a physical injury at some point that he never speaks of, and has remained indoors ever since. He believes he is always right, he HAS to be right, and believes in the power of math above all. However, as much as he argues with his co-worker, they both respect each other and are willing to take risks to help the other.
Herc and Chuck-A father and son. The father is a more experienced man that's seen the weight of the world, but as a result has difficulty talking to his son, who he feels is becoming not the man he hoped he would be. The son has become a big hotshot in the world, the best of the best, and its fed into his ego, so that he has gotten cocky, arrogant, and rude to any others he feels might challenge him or get in his way. He feels all the glory should be his, and puts that ahead of the actual importance of his job, and leads to conflict with all of his coworkers... though he can back off and respect and give credit where it is due. Despite all of this he still loves and respects his father. They keeps a pet at a job where you really shouldn't have pets, and both shower it with affection, so it might be a bit of bonding they have between them to express what they can't actually say to each other.
Hannibal-the awesome guy that's awesome whenever he's on screen. He's dallied with dangerous stuff and made a fortune from it, and he enjoys showing that fact off because everything he owns is fancy, and has an attachment to his personal belongings (which are in some cases customized). He's cocky, smarmy, and makes a lot of jokes, is quick to insult others, and is more sure and in charge of the situation than anyone else, always confident he knows best and can't be beaten. He's an outsider to the rest of the cast, and has almost no interaction to most of them, nor does he need to. He took a crazy risk once, suffered for it, but hides it incredibly well with his show of charm and wealth.
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For the record TLC, not to pick on you, but just as possible advice, a lot of the umbrage taken in debates people have with you can actually be altered by more preference-oriented examination of your posts as far as prolonged debate goes.
It's not wrong to ever have an opinion, but unless you actively enjoy arguing (I don't think a lot of people do?) if you would prefer to avoid it in the future and be more involved in what feels like a discussion with people like Robby instead of an attack, it's easy to be more accommodating to the power of preference than you tend to be in the ways you word and fuel your interactions.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
This isn't a weakness or handicap or anything that cold sterile depictions of debates tend to be drawn as. I'm not saying be an apologist, never be an apologist. I'm just saying there's a real sway you seemingly tend to ignore entirely.
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Why do you even bother arguing with him? For one, he subtly adapts and twists his complaints every time you prove him wrong. It's like a debate with a conspiracy theorist who thinks the moon landing was faked but by the time you finish debunking myths, the topic is actually whether or not quantum mechanics proves the existence of intelligent alien life and how they are manipulating the minds of congressmen.
More importantly he has this fantasy world in his head where he envisions The Perfect Movie, according entirely to his arbitrary and nonsensical standards, and is willing to type a dissertation about why anything that doesn't match his vision to the most minute detail is a disastrous piece of shit that everyone should feel bad for liking and of course everyone cares what he thinks because… why again? Why should anyone care when all he does is complain and insult?
You're never going to change his mind because he is incapable of introspection or of considering outside opinions, and moreover he doesn't understand the concept that his delusions aren't universal truths.
What bullshit. Where did I even say the movie is horrible and that you're bad for liking it? I LIKED it. I just think it has severe character problems and could have been much better. You yourself agreed with me.
Saw it last night. Everyone I've talked to agreed that the writing was terrible and the characters were shallow, but the fights were so awesome that it didn't matter. I kind of agree. The fights suffered from a lot of really bad tropes also present in similar animes. Like not using good attacks/weapons until you're losing the battle. Or doing really pointless shit like picking up a monster and throwing it back in the ocean. Yeah that sounds super effective… I was expecting some kind of back-breaker or limb tearing to occur but nope. Also it was stupid how the sword was easily the best weapon and it only got used as a last resort. Punching the thing for a while is probably better right?
Anyway it was entertaining.
You said this. So when I say it, I'm being a conspiracy theorist with excessively high, nonsensical standards but when you say it, you're being reasonable? They're your standards too!
I type dissertations because I'm passionate about movies. I was especially passionate about this one because I had really high hopes for it and it's been a dud summer for blockbusters so far. So, it's bad that I try to be analytical with my approach to films?
And you know, I'm sick and tired of being accused of back-peddling or twisting my words. I ALWAYS simplify my main argument with a summary in the end of my post usually with a tl:/dr. Because I like talking about movies with people and I'm the type that prefers to stick to facts rather than semantics. So to be accused of twisting my arguments just for the sake of winning is downright insulting. I don't care about winning, I didn't like aspects about a movie and I want to understand why people think this way especially since they're completely opposite of what I saw.
Also where the fuck did I insult anyone.
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Why do you even bother arguing with him?
To amuse everyone else.
@Thousand:
Also where the fuck did I insult anyone.
Its what you do in general. Just because you didn't toss out a specific insult phrase doesn't mean your attitude and tone in general don't grate people the wrong way and FEEL like they're being insulted and condescended to.
As a result, people don't generally bother reading your posts anymore and just assume you'll say the things you always say, in the way you always say it… and those assumptions are generally correct.
There are people in this thread that agree with what you're saying, but the way you're saying it gets to everyone.
I had to go back a look very hard to see that you had apparently issued a Plinkett challenge amidst that diatribe. Which the movie passes just fine, btw.