That's not the same as presenting an opinion as a fact.
Moreover it's also not what was done here; there was no accusation, merely a statement (of an opinion as fact).
Yeah, my bullshit meter just broke 9000.
Fuck this guy's game.
That's not the same as presenting an opinion as a fact.
Moreover it's also not what was done here; there was no accusation, merely a statement (of an opinion as fact).
Yeah, my bullshit meter just broke 9000.
Fuck this guy's game.
…
That's an opinion?
It's not necessarily good style, but whether or not it makes a good argument depends on what argument you give.
Quite the understatement. I can say that 1+1=7 as a fact, because it's my opinion. Which doesn't make it just bad style, it does in fact make my statement wrong.
This is also not a matter of semantics bad style does not equal wrong. The word "wrong" exists for a very specific purpose so use it for such occasions.
You guys want him to stop smoking, you need to find him another way to relieve that stress.
3 hours of sleep is not one way to do it.
@wolfwoof:
More on this thrilling semantical bullshit to come
I thought, eh, semantical is a word? Shouldn't it just be semantic? But then I looked it up, and they are both words meaning the same thing! The irony is broken.
Now that is thrilling semantic(al) bullshit.
…
That's an opinion?
It's not necessarily good style, but whether or not it makes a good argument depends on what argument you give.
This is awful on so many levels. How do you have a meaningful debate full of BS? Having discussions that are opinion based are fine, but not if you are calling your opinion a fact if you don't actually know. You lose credibility when you do this.
Someone has to stop smoking then.
Because I do not have much time to read them all
Is this serious?
@The:
Because I do not have much time to read them all
Is this serious?
It's utterly unimportant.
But in case you missed the actual important stuff, head over to the "Oda's sick 2 weeks break" thread.
Yeah, my bullshit meter just broke 9000.
Fuck this guy's game.
… maybe I'm really misinterpreting, but this is how I interpreted this post:
To this I will reply like this
1. yes a lot of people have about 2 weeks of vacation time or more (depending on their status - kids, age and so on) However.
a) I for instance have only 1 DAY a year I can use for vacation WHENEVER I want, the rest needs to be talked over with the employer. You cannot just leave whenever you want, you need to look at the company and when there is less work and other people take vacations as well and so on. For majority of people it is like thatb) Oda can take a leave whenever he wishes and if you count up the times he does in a year this comes to a lot of days off "duty"
But like I said. People like Oda are working even when they take their time off. But that is beyond the point I was trying to make. Which is, that you can understand why it annoys people
I read this as: "I can understand why it annoys some people that Oda takes weeks off, because they might feel they have some difficulty in getting time off, while Oda can probably get a week off as he wishes; in total, he definitely takes a lot of weeks off per year. As a side point, I disagree with that, because however many weeks Oda is taking off, he's always working way too hard."
Quite the understatement. I can say that 1+1=7 as a fact, because it's my opinion. Which doesn't make it just bad style, it does in fact make my statement wrong.
This is also not a matter of semantics bad style does not equal wrong. The word "wrong" exists for a very specific purpose so use it for such occasions.
But what you did is you took a fact, made it wrong, then claimed to present it as an opinion. Obviously, you can never convince anyone of anything if you do that. If something is subjective (and what this guy had said was entirely speculative) then if you present your opinion as a fact it is not glaringly wrong. As Aohige said, we have no way of knowing what the exact situation is, so we don't know if he's right or if he's wrong.
It's utterly unimportant.
But in case you missed the actual important stuff, head over to the "Oda's sick 2 weeks break" thread.
I do not want to sarcasm.
I'm just asking if it is something serious because I see lot of people to say about SMOKING
I am personally passionate non-smoker but that is not the issue. I'm just asking if is serious or just passed and he should be careful after
On the bright side he can rest in these 2 weeks.
@The:
I do not want to sarcasm.
I'm just asking if it is something serious because I see lot of people to say about SMOKING
I am personally passionate non-smoker but that is not the issue. I'm just asking if is serious or just passed and he should be careful after
He thought you were asking about something else.
It's not a serious illness, but obviously he should take the time to rest and recover properly.
The smoking's not strictly related but we're all concerned because Oda does smoke A LOT.
Hope that sums everything up.
He thought you were asking about something else.
It's not a serious illness, but obviously he should take the time to rest and recover properly.
The smoking's not strictly related but we're all concerned because Oda does smoke A LOT.
Hope that sums everything up.
Thank you
Sorry if I was not understood Aohige my english are not so good
while Oda can probably get a week off as he wishes;
You can't arbitrary add phrases retrospectively to change a statement into a guess.
That's what shitty ass politicians do to save face after their statements go viral.
Not to mention his following posts made no effort to reverse the fact it was a statement, on top of that,
you YOURSELF said "saying opinion as a fact" is a-ok.
I'm starting to suspect you're a dupe account trying hard to backtrack statements.
Either that, or you're just trolling HARD, which in case, I guess you accomplished your shit.
This is awful on so many levels. How do you have a meaningful debate full of BS? Having discussions that are opinion based are fine, but not if you are calling your opinion a fact if you don't actually know. You lose credibility when you do this.
That sentence is an opinion; you have expressed it as a fact. Nobody cares because we know it is your opinion. The guy in question was pretty obviously not attempting to argue his opinion as fact, he just wrote it without any uncertainties.
Obviously, it's a different thing between a forum post and something academic, but you don't necessarily lose credibility. A historian, for example, will present properly researched information as facts and provide evidence (citations), but will also assert their own interpretations as facts. A good writer will write it such that you are aware it's their interpretation. And so long as that distinction exists on some level, it'll probably work stylistically.
But what you did is you took a fact, made it wrong, then claimed to present it as an opinion. Obviously, you can never convince anyone of anything if you do that. If something issubjective (and what this guy had said was entirely speculative) then if you present your opinion as a fact it is not glaringly wrong. As Aohige said, we have no way of knowing what the exact situation is, so we don't know if he's right or if he's wrong.
This is like schrödinger's cat, just that you are telling me that a whale is in it and not a cat because we haven't opened the box yet.
Also in this case as you said what the guy said is speculative which makes it neither right nor wrong yet, the thing about facts is though that they constitute a thing being the actual case prone to being provable. Therefore what he said can't be a fact by nature and stating it as such creates a wrong statement.
You can't arbitrary add phrases retrospectively to change a statement into an guess.
That's what shitty ass politicians do to save face after their statements go viral.Not to mention his following statements made no effort to reverse the fact it was a statement, on top of that,
you YOURSELF said "saying opinion as a fact" is a-ok.I'm starting to suspect you're a dupe account trying hard to backtrack statements.
Either that, or you're just trolling HARD, which in case, I guess you accomplished your shit.
It is ok, if it's clear on some level it's an opinion. Which it was to me (which is why I was surprised when you tore him to pieces over it). Also, in his next post, he said something about, no he doesn't know, but 'we can be 95% sure' or something like that.
Also, I'm clearly not that guy; my English is much better.
Nor am I trolling - I'm just astounded that you so misinterpreted what he said.
I may take up smoking at the end of this…
This is like schrödinger's cat, just that you are telling me that a whale is in it and not a cat because we haven't opened the box yet.
Also in this case as you said what the guy said is speculative which makes it neither right nor wrong yet, the thing about facts is though that they constitute a thing being the actual case prone to being provable. Therefore what he said can't be a fact by nature and stating it as such creates a wrong statement.
I believe it is not necessary to qualify an unprovable statement to show you do not think it is provable beyond reasonable doubt.
It is not necessary to qualify an unprovable statement to show you do not think it is provable beyond reasonable doubt.
^ so you think the second is wrong just because I didn't say "I believe"? I don't see how that works . . .
That sentence is an opinion; you have expressed it as a fact. Nobody cares because we know it is your opinion. The guy in question was pretty obviously not attempting to argue his opinion as fact, he just wrote it without any uncertainties.
No, no, no no, and no!
When you present them as a) blah blah, and b) blah blah, you are presenting these points as the argument focus.
You cannot just claim they were opinion retrospectively when you place such importance in them, without any uncertainties.
It becomes a factual statement. It is presented as a factual proof supporting your point!
Seriously what the hell, your semantic bullshit is straight out of a politician's excuse book!
No, no, no no, and no!
When you present them as a) blah blah, and b) blah blah, you are presenting these points as the argument focus.
You cannot just claim they were opinion when you place such importance in them, without any uncertainties. It becomes a factual statement.Seriously what the hell, your semantic bullshit is straight out of a politician's excuse book!
Now you are suggesting they must be facts because they were important points. I just don't understand :S
I believe it is not necessary to qualify an unprovable statement to show you do not think it is provable beyond reasonable doubt.
It is not necessary to qualify an unprovable statement to show you do not think it is provable beyond reasonable doubt.
^ so you think the second is wrong just because I didn't say "I believe"? I don't see how that works . . .
It works because in the second phrase you make an assumption about me which immediately disqualifies it as fact. I could simply tell you that it is indeed necessary to do so for me.
Aohige has become troll food…calm down and ignore them man...
It works because in the second phrase you make an assumption about me which immediately disqualifies it as fact. I could simply tell you that it is indeed necessary to do so for me.
So the second one is an opinion, right? That's the idea . . .
Now you are suggesting they must be facts because they were important points. I just don't understand :S
They are presented as facts because they are statements with no uncertainties. They are stated. Period.
And they are argument points specifically picked out in rows, you cannot simply go back and say "oh I didn't mean that".
What makes it worse is the poster himself isn't even claiming this. YOU are saying "he didn't mean that".
Jesus.
They are presented as facts because they are statements with no uncertainties. They are stated. Period.
And they are argument points specifically picked out in rows, you cannot simply go back and say "oh I didn't mean that".Jesus.
Well we can agree that they are presented as facts. But they're obviously actually his opinions. Why would you call him out on it and demand evidence and all this bullshit when clearly he's making a point using opinions? It's just dumb.
Well we can agree that they are presented as facts. But they're obviously actually his opinions. Why would you call him out on it and demand evidence and all this bullshit when clearly he's making a point using opinions? It's just dumb.
You…... you.........
You yourself said the moronic, stupid, statement of presenting opinion as facts is acceptable argument.
And you were arguing until just now that they were, in fact, NOT presented as facts
What in the Saint Mary's Fuck dude. Ok, nevermind, you're clearly a troll. Or have a memory capacity of a bird.
Ignored.
So the second one is an opinion, right? That's the idea . . .
How would I know(this is of course rhetorical since you're implying as much with that question)? It's written as a fact. If the idea should be as you say, that it is in fact an opinion the English language offers many words to signal it as such. Use them…(Like in the first statement.)
Thank you all for delivering to us one of this years worst moments
Now let's never speak of it again
You…... you.........
You yourself said the moronic, stupid, statement of presenting opinion as facts is acceptable argument.
And you were arguing until just now that they were, in fact, NOT presented as facts
What in the Saint Mary's Fuck dude. Ok, nevermind, you're clearly a troll. Or have a memory capacity of a bird.
Ignored.
Actually, I said they were Presented as facts, but they were evidently actually his opinions. In this specific case, it was bad style to do so because it might muddy the water for people with the reading comprehension of a cynical twelve year old.
I am like 80% sure I am actually the one being trolled, because I cannot see how the level of reading comprehension on this board could be so miserably low.
And who is/was Saint Mary . . .
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
How would I know(this is of course rhetorical since you're implying as much with that question)? It's written as a fact. If the idea should be as you say, that it is in fact an opinion the English language offers many words to signal it as such. Use them…(Like in the first statement.)
But … (most) people do not (always) do this in normal communication. What is an opinion and what is a fact is implied, most of the time. Why should some poor guy, whose English isn't particularly great anyway, be expected to clearly signal to everyone what is his opinion and what is an actually evidenced fact? People should be intelligent enough to suss that out for themselves.
But … (most) people do not (always) do this in normal communication. What is an opinion and what is a fact is implied, most of the time. Why should some poor guy, whose English isn't particularly great anyway, be expected to clearly signal to everyone what is his opinion and what is an actually evidenced fact? People should be intelligent enough to suss that out for themselves.
Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinng…
!
And with that the thread should be knocked on topic again.
One start to wonder who is actually sick here?
Looking back at the chapter, the Toy Soldier's line about the country just make this arc even more interesting to me:
"But our plan is one that could lead to the collapse of this entire country"
Hmmm, what's gonna happen to this country?
One start to wonder who is actually sick here?
Looking back at the chapter, the Toy Soldier's line about the country just make this arc even more interesting to me:
Hmmm, what's gonna happen to this country?
Vive la Revolution! No wait, we're in Spain . . .
Anarchy?
It's not even that. That's entirely up to opinion.
This guy is arguing about something he has no way of knowing, somehow convinced that he knows the truth.
That's not an opinion. That's stupidity.
Aohige. I respect you for what you do and as a person. However time and time again you go on a personal level. Just stop it and also stop this entire ordeal, since I said it already it is the power of common sense and deduction.
It is like saying where is the proof that Messi is a better footballer than Torres. Because you know statistic, does not mean. X scores more goals = better.
But you can see it and it is logical. It is logical Oda can take a break whenever he wishes. If you believe otherwise and that he cannot that is your right. I am not calling you stupid for it.
Aohige. I respect you for what you do and as a person. However time and time again you go on a personal level. Just stop it and also stop this entire ordeal, since I said it already it is the power of common sense and deduction.
It is like saying where is the proof that Messi is a better footballer than Torres. Because you know statistic, does not mean. X scores more goals = better.
But you can see it and it is logical. It is logical Oda can take a break whenever he wishes. If you believe otherwise and that he cannot that is your right. I am not calling you stupid for it.
But the difference is, dude, you have statistics for that.
We do not have any information on how Oda gets his breaks. None.
Only thing we have is generally how a manga magazine works.
You're basing your "common sense" entirely on situations that does not pertain to magazine publishing, no?
That's why you kept asking about the "two chapters they should have" no? Which I also explained why.
Isn't the fact that you were ignorant about the two week gap and chapters tell you something?
You kept repeatedly asking redon for answers. You obviously did not know how it works, right?
How did your "power of common sense and deduction" work out above, when you were completely wrong?
The problem with your stance is, you have conviction that's baseless… yet conviction that somehow your assumption is factual.
The important thing is Oda is sick. Anybody here with his blood-type can donate?
Oh damn, I might have been actually defending an idiot all this time :S
I feel like an unlucky lawyer.
Uh-huh. I feel like POKING YOU WITH A SEARING STICK!
No.
Presenting your opinion as a fact is one of the worst terrible argument you can possibly make.
Backtracking is also one of the worst things you can do to save face.
Actually as a law student I can more or less with a certainty tell you that is not the case. Presenting your opinion if it has logic in it is quite commonly used as a fact. Especially since laws themselves are always created by some common sense or logical reason and if there is none, the law will sooner or later be changed.
In case you wonder what I mean with that I'll give an example. (a bad one but doesn't matter just to explain…)
mr. X goes to bed every day at 9 o'clock -> therefor we can deduce that on Monday he went to bed at 9 0'clock. Are we certain of it and 100% sure? No, can we say it with high probability? Yes
So if we know how other mangaka do their job and the fact that they take their leaves even for a few months. If we know that One Piece is the best selling manga in the world and that Oda is the man writing it and has been writing it for over a decade.
Can we deduce that no matter when Oda will say I wish to take a break the editor will say sure go ahead.
Yes we can. Do we know for a fact this is so? No we don't.
You have a right to disagree or even see my entire post and previous posts as stupid and so on. That is your right. However saying it in a manner you do, is not really nice.
So I would kindly ask you if we can drop the entire issue I think we both know where we stand and have made our points.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Yeah, my bullshit meter just broke 9000.
Fuck this guy's game.
P.S. I really liked this one. This DB reference always cracks me up, so thanks for the laughter ;)
So I would kindly ask you if we can drop the entire issue I think we both know where we stand and have made our points.
Yo, before you run off with tails between legs…
How did your "power of common sense and deduction" work out above, when you were completely wrong?
Answer this.
Why are you sooooo convinced that your "power of common sense and deduction" is infallible?
When like, it already failed you… like right before all this?
Can you like, not dodge and ignore all evidences rebutting your stance?
Law school my ass, that's a characteristics of a FOX News pundit.
Not sure what you are aiming at Aohige? The statement that somone who has by far the best selling manga atm and has kept Shonen Jump busy with it over a decade can take a leave whenever he pleases if he wishes so?
I wish to end this discussion for two reasons
I am playing football in 15 minutes
It really was not my intention to start this whole discussion. Which again with no real proof and a lot of generalization I think majority of people here doesn't really enjoy reading.
But if this is as some kind of French act of me waving the white flag, than so be it
No hard feelings and sorry to you and all the rest who I bothered with this stuff
Zeph is really missing out on some hilarity right here. Wonder where he is…
Actually we can see Blue Gilly's behind him and his leg is bended
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3198/05a8029b8d48716d5820ad5.png
So Elizabello punch was so strong that trow all the rest of the competitors to the tournment walls and there is the shore or some water also pushed to the borders.
Couldnt it just be that the punch's shockwave pushed some water onto the coliseums ground?
except i think he started warming up before the block even started… but who knows
Yeah, somebody mentioned it but we should have at least an hour since it started. I guess, may be
Not sure what you are aiming at Aohige? The statement that somone who has by far the best selling manga atm and has kept Shonen Jump busy with it over a decade can take a leave whenever he pleases if he wishes so?
I'm talking about the "there's no two week buffer, magazine schedule is what dictates publishing speed".
You were going all over the whole two chapter thing.
I'm saying, that's an example of your ignorance on magazine publishing schedules, and that your "common sense and deductions" are far from infallible.
You're asking me to drop it. Sure. Is that related to the fact you haven't made a single attempt to rebuttal any of the evidences?
I mean seriously, only argument I heard from you is "I have common sense therefore I'm right". Even when you weren't on related topic right before this one.
"Ummmm…... whatever I dunno what you're talking about I'm right! let's drop this ok!"
Yo, that's like what a bad girlfriend says when she has no ammo left.
Couldnt it just be that the punch's shockwave pushed some water onto the coliseums ground?
There's a wall but looking back at that post i could have put it better worded i wanted to say as a possibility and not trying to pass it as an absolute fact.
Opinions = Fact
!
No…
Opinions don't magically become facts in law. BUT they become determining factors in making decisions after becoming precedence. The opinions that led to precedence isn't fact, but the decision behind the precedence becomes fact (since it is an actual occurrence) . So the opinion itself doesn't become fact, but the decision does (which by relying on the opinions behind the precedence, one can come to a decision since it is a reliable "opinion" because it led to a decision but in no ways does the opinions itself MAGICALLY become a fact).
Try to wrap your head around that? I know Jurisprudence tooooo~
Valiantt~~
Do you still want that brushy brushy~?
YES!
Wow.
All it takes is the announcement that Oda's taking a two-week break for this thread to go completely off the rails (moreso than the chapter threads usually do at least). Normally we have to actually get into the extended break first.
oh well, at least we have the tournmament coming up. That should be able to satisfy a decent amount of people's OP fix.