Because noone comments my pic from last page:
My masterpiece:
Someone draw it better!
Because noone comments my pic from last page:
My masterpiece:
Someone draw it better!
Wait…now don't ask me for the source, but I could have sworn it was mentioned at some point that Ace did have haki. King's Haki I think, which would imply CoA and COO as well.
King's was confirmed, but he didn't even use that. I also doubt that having kings means automatically possessing the other 2, or even being good at them.
It just doesn't make sense for me that he simply decided to not use it against Blackbeard or Akainu if he was a skilled user. With such a fruit he never had to be.
Edit: Ok, I will stop discussiing haki or Enel on this thread, it's indeed somewhat disrespectful towards the people who want to talk about the chapter.
Source? because Oda's never stated anything like that. He did say that Enel's bounty would be 500 million, BUT he didn't say the other part ("comparable bounty to one of Whitebeard's commanders".
SBS 43 states he would have a bounty around 500 million, Ace had a bounty of 550 million. Again, bounty does not equal power-level.
SBS 43 states he would have a bounty around 500 million, Ace had a bounty of 550 million. Again, bounty does not equal power-level.
Somehow I get the feeling that Oda slowly takes this direction tho. In FI we had Luffy categorizing Hody's defense in "bounty" (I think he said Hody is as tough as someone with a 200 million bounty), and now Caesar and Monet judge by bounty as well. It was not as bad as the Hody incident, but still.
I hope Oda stops that. I mean it makes sense that you need to be powerful in order to be a threat, but lines like "he is 200 million belly strong" irritate me.
Enel being trashed in the NW? No way.
Ace showed no signs of armor haki and he still managed to become the second commander of the most powerful pirate crew pre TS. All he ever did was using his dangerous fire logia abilities. Hell, the Mera Mera No Mi allowed him to block attacks from an Admiral. Now look at Enel. Perfect super long-range observation haki and a Devil fruit that is on par (or arguably better) than Ace's. Both are destructive, but the Goru Goru no Mi allows him to do much more:
- Perfect defense / retreat by merging with his surroundings
- Super Observation
- Teleporting / lightning speed
His only weakness was this one rubber man. Even if people in the NW can hit him, it dosn't mean that they won't get instantly electrocuted by his powers.
Enel would be close to a Yonkou, now that he learned that he isn't invincible.
Odds are since Jozu the 3rd division commander had CoA that the 2nd division commander would also. Ace new he had CoC so I'm sure he learned about CoA and how to use it. Pekoms said that logias that think they are invincible won't live long lives, so I think Ace had to know this or else he wouldn't have made it to 2nd division commander. I don't care who someone is on DF alone you can't go that far in the NW we've seen that to be the case with everyone. I think if Enel has CoA he'd be much stronger but it would depend on how strong his CoA was, because with enough power (or weak haki) CoA and CoO can be rendered useless almost. Van der Decken if he could imbue haki into the shit he through would have been a match for Enel. I think if Enel learned basic CoA he'd be VA level like Smoker is now. As for beign electrocuted if he could be hit that's not true much like Jozu wasn't frozen by ramming Aokiji or Vista's sword didn't melt by hitting Akainu.
Enel was strong and in the first half of the GL he would truly be probably the strongest fighter. He'd even do ok in the NW because he had CoO (which was amplified because he lived in the clouds) but we know the power of the famous people in the NW is already well beyond his level even if he had basic CoA. If he had CoA to the level of Luffy and CoO like Raleigh sure he'd be Admiral level. I think implying he would be Admiral level if he learned CoA is odd because we've seen how far above simple use of haki they are but saying he'd match Blackbeard, Shanks, Whitebeard, and Sengoku or Garp's levels is crazy we've seen what they can do. Luffy wouldn't be the only DF user who he would be weak against either. So I'd say if he learns the basics VA level, if he got good at both without having to use thunderclouds to improve CoO he'd be Admiral level.
At his current level he wouldn't go far in the NW, even Luffy thought he was stupid when he said if he beat him (Luffy) he'd be the strongest. Luffy knew without knowing about haki that there would be MANY MANY people would could beat him
eh, the number of the division doesn't indicate the strength of the commander at all, Ace got the 2nd division because it was the one which was free, not because he was stronger than the commanders from the 3rd to the 16th division.
Obviously he's more stronger than most of them and got two because it fits better a main character than fourteen for example; The point is that being the commander of the 2nd division doesn't make him stronger than Jozu, Vista or even Thatch.
however I agree with ace having armor haki.
You have to look at more then just fighting. Enel also has the advantage that he can instantly destroy any ship on the sea. Thats a big advantage agains other piratecrews.
ANd yes, enel is TOP-TIER even in the new world. It doesnt matter if other people can hit him cause of CoA. Croc is still called a heavy hitter and he is in every area weaker then enel(exept brainpower).
And no you cant protect agains Enels lightning. Did we ever see someone protect himself from logiaattacks? Only 3 Admirals together stopped the shockwave but nobody else did ever show any sign of that skill. If you could protect from Lightning that you could protect from every attack there is…
Like Jabra said. Enel has to much of an advantage agains others.
Longrange CoO
Longrange Attacks
Super-speed.
One of the most destructive Abilities up to now. Actually its the most destructive Ability i can think of.
Potential to get even stronger. He can easily rebuild Maxim and he has his own Ancient Weapon.
He can Levitate(i think?)
Lightning can be used in other ways like Enel showed with his Golmelting skill.
He has HIGH Stamina despite having a Logia and never been Hit in his Life.He just has 1 Weakness. Thats his relativly weak Hand to Hand combat compared to other fighters but that is overshowed by the sheer power of his Logia.
Crocodile had trouble in the New World even though he was a Logia, to the point of having to run away from it. And yes, being able to hit Enel through COA does matter. Also, being able to destroy ships is nothing out of the ordinary in the NW.
And the Admirals showed that it's possible to protect oneself from non-physical attacks, so Enel's lightning should be blockable. Super speed should also not be an issue against somebody with above-average COO.
And Enel has his own Ancient Weapon? Since when?
We shouldn't talk about bounties and power levels after last chapters clearly showed us that all Shichibukai are close to each other… So we only have to talk about ranks. All captains are equal, all 1st mates are equal and all 3rd strongest are equal.
Despite of all the forshadowing there isn't really much to talk about. Crazy.
Yep really crazy
I agree that the chapter didn't give much things to speculate. We got two "unknown" silhouettes and we already talked enough about them.
Super speed should also not be an issue against somebody with above-average COO.
All we have seen so far points to the contrary, speed trumps COO.
Hmm soo I wonder what direction the story will take next. I feel like Punk Hazard will wrap up pretty soon, CC's experiment showdown should conclude the arc with some possible aftermath. But then what? Will Luffy and Law continue their plan? How will Smoker and Tashigi react to the corrupt marines? What will the brokers do after they witness whatever is about to go down at the end of this arc? What is the Tea Party and will we see it? Will Doflamingo go after whoever gets away from Punk Hazard? Will the Strawhats make an appearance in Mariejois at the world meeting? What is the tank that Vergo brought to the island? I want to know what the revolutionaries are up to, and what Robin learnt from Dragon! I feel like there is SO much information just out of reach, and you can't speculate about any of it. This is why One Piece is so amazing at the moment, but it's also why it's very frustrating to read. Because Oda only serves us small portions, and there's always more. Can't wait for next chapter. Can't wait.
SBS 43 states he would have a bounty around 500 million, Ace had a bounty of 550 million. Again, bounty does not equal power-level.
I know, but you said it like this is what Oda said when in fact he didn't mention Whitebeard and his crew in relation to Enel's bounty.
What about the source for the Lucci bit?
All we have seen so far points to the contrary, speed trumps COO.
Actually, Luffy used COO to dodge water bullets at one point.
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Where was it shown that speed > COO?
Actually, Luffy used COO to dodge water bullets at one point.
! [qimg]http://img.batoto.net/comics/2012/05/02/o/read4fa10ee7e5c63/img000013.png[/qimg]
Where was it shown that speed > COO?
Boa sisters vs Luffy and arguably Eneru vs Luffy during the end when he claimed Luffy was moving to fast just before the bell hit. It was Oda's way early on to let us know that Haki was not the end all be all of offense and defense.
King's was confirmed, but he didn't even use that. I also doubt that having kings means automatically possessing the other 2, or even being good at them.
It just doesn't make sense for me that he simply decided to not use it against Blackbeard or Akainu if he was a skilled user. With such a fruit he never had to be.
Edit: Ok, I will stop discussiing haki or Enel on this thread, it's indeed somewhat disrespectful towards the people who want to talk about the chapter.
Well first I just wanna say this. I'd think haki would be useless against Blackbeard and Akainu, even if he was a master of it. I think Ace just had the bad luck of fighting bad opponents without getting to show off these abilities.
In the Paramount War it was implied that there were many haki users, at least all the VCs knew CoO at least. Jozu knew CoA, as did Marco and Vista. Which bring me to Akainu, who somehow wasn't hurt by either of them. I think Akainu is a skilled haki user himself, so Ace using haki against him would do much good. Besides, they only fought for a matter of seconds. As for Blackbeard, haki wouldn't do much to him for different reasons. Ace's fire attacks worked on Blackbeard, so there's no reason to use CoA there, and with Blackbeard's suction technique CoO is useless too.
Again, I forget where I heard this, but I could have sworn that having King's Haki meant the capacity to use all known haki as well. That's really the only problem I have here, I don't think saying that Ace didn't know these techniques it quite right. With all the praise Ace got, I doubt that after years on the Grand line he'd never develop that talent further.
I know, but you said it like this is what Oda said when in fact he didn't mention Whitebeard and his crew in relation to Enel's bounty.
What about the source for the Lucci bit?
Lucci being stronger then Enel? Pretty sure this was from a rumored SBS that turned out to be fake. I remember discussing this the time it came out.
Boa sisters vs Luffy and arguably Eneru vs Luffy during the end when he claimed Luffy was moving to fast just before the bell hit. It was Oda's way early on to let us know that Haki was not the end all be all of offense and defense.
Fast attacks are different from fast movement. Enel might move around at lightning speed, but his attacks are far too flashy to not see coming.
That's why I said arguably, the main proof was Luffy vs the taller Boa sister. She straight up said despite reading his movements Luffy was moving too fast for her to react. The main point still stands that speed trumps CoO if the Haki user isn't fast enough to react. What Hodi threw at Luffy does not prove otherwise, Luffy is fast enough for a lot of things, add CoO to that of course he can dodge projectiles from an artificially enhanced Hodi.
Enel would not be a Top tier in the New World.
Oda stated via character exposition that there were loads of people that would murk Enel.
Having a bounty of 500 mill wouldn't make him a Top tier either.
Ace who had a bounty of 550 mill was only High tier.
Then theres the fact that he was getting wrecked by punches from skypeia Luffy whose strength is damn near laughable compared to current luffy who isn't even a Top tier yet.
Speaking of which, is anyone else getting tired of CC? He shouldn't have lasted this long when Luffy and Law are on the island. Taking out half the crew, really? I thought that sort of thing was reserved for Crocodile or Enel or Lucci… CC is not the next big bad, I'm sorry, he's not. I hope this is just another "dire situation" like with Mr. 3, that'll be solved by arc's end.
Speaking of which, is anyone else getting tired of CC? He shouldn't have lasted this long when Luffy and Law are on the island. Taking out half the crew, really? I thought that sort of thing was reserved for Crocodile or Enel or Lucci… CC is not the next big bad, I'm sorry, he's not. I hope this is just another "dire situation" like with Mr. 3, that'll be solved by arc's end.
He removes oxygen from the air… How is he not strong? That type of tactic would even topple someone as strong as Whitebeard. Because...like people already said...it doesn't matter how strong you are, if you can't breath you pass out/die; Brooke is the best hope for the Strawhat's, or some deus ex machina device (i.e. Kinemon summons up some oxygen tanks).
I think people really underestimate Enel's CoO and his capacity for non-standard fights. In Skypia his CoO's area (powered up by his fruit) had the capacity to cover all of Skypia, I think it is safe to say there are few if any others with that kind of range. Now picture this, if he wasn't bound to a spot like when he fought Luffy (His ark) he would never have to actually face someone to fight them he could just stay out of his range and rain lightning on them. He has enough speed to out run pretty much anyone (Barring maybe Kizaru) and given the distances he is capable of attacking from no one could touch him.
Now this is all practically fan fiction but I was just giving an idea of how Enel could use his fruit and CoO to bypass both an opponent's CoA and CoO that would be most troublesome for him.
Hax powers are hax powers, nothing can really prepair the crew for such surprises. He is physically weaker than Luffy that's for sure but his ability has tricks that are hard to get around. It's great that each successive villain is not more powerful than the last, it keeps things in perspective, still doesn't matter how strong one is, if you get trick-haxed nothing you can do about it but avoid it next time.
My masterpiece:
Someone draw it better!
Dude that was hilarious. I actually lolled, not just typed it.
Speaking of which, is anyone else getting tired of CC? He shouldn't have lasted this long when Luffy and Law are on the island. Taking out half the crew, really? I thought that sort of thing was reserved for Crocodile or Enel or Lucci… CC is not the next big bad, I'm sorry, he's not. I hope this is just another "dire situation" like with Mr. 3, that'll be solved by arc's end.
To be honest, he had to last this long. Law, who was kicking peoples ass left and right, advised Luffy to freaking gang up on Caesar. He even made it clear that CoO is neccessary to battle him, not even talking about evading his hax ability.
I don't know, maybe people thought Law was exaggerating back then, but he obviously wasn't.
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Post emerge:
Hax powers are hax powers, nothing can really prepair the crew for such surprises. He is physically weaker than Luffy that's for sure but his ability has tricks that are hard to get around. It's great that each successive villain is not more powerful than the last, it keeps things in perspective, still doesn't matter how strong one is, if you get trick-haxed nothing you can do about it but avoid it next time.
Thank you, so much this.
Still if I am completely wrong I think that Kinemon is going to have a major role in the next few chapters..
I'm pretty sure an arc will happen on his Island ( in some kind of medieval japanese contexte) and it will probably be next arc since more less one arc out of 2 is without marine and Kinemon island is marine free.
So based on CC's words at the end of the chapter it seems hes going to "test" his WMD by setting it free against the people on the island. So far the only people outside of the lab are the weak fodder G5 marines. That hardly seems like a convincing test for such a great weapon. So maybe he releases the SH's, law, smoker, and tashigi and they battle smiley?
Sure sanji, zoro, brooke, and kinemon could show up and take out smiley. But that still wouldnt change the fact that CC went to the trouble of connecting with the criminals and trying to broker a deal by conducting a test against such weak enemies.
I was hoping for a "Vander Decken's Quest for Love" out of the coverstory, but I suppose Caribou will be okay too… And who knows? I'd never have expected Alvida to show up in Buggy's, so there's still a chance the Misadventures of Caribou might coincidentally set Decken loose once more - ideally, causing him to reset his Shirahoshi hand in the process. I'd like them both to be recurring characters.
The withdrawal symptoms the kids are suffering seem to be quite nasty... Not particularly surprising, given that Caesar's drugging them specifically to keep them beholden to him, but still... CC's forthcoming beatdown will be thoroughly deserved indeed. Speaking of, his control over gases and ability to outright suffocate his opponents, while somewhat expected, makes him a far more lethal foe than I was giving him credit for. It will be interesting to see how Luffy (and/or Law, and/or Smoker, etc.) manages to pull it off. Good to see Usopp's Firebird Star is still a part of his bag of tricks.
My opinion of Brownbeard has now gone up significantly... I honestly thought the Cool Brothers had finished him off (this is One Piece - I should know better), so the combination of his survival, his rage at Caesar's betrayal, and his concern for his men still under CC's thrall make me hope that he and his band of centaurs show up again in the future. Not so much as in a recurring character fashion, but perhaps a "Where are they now" type thing, a la Lola's crew from Thriller Bark.
And then we come to Caesar's not-so-shocking reveal as a black market purveyor of chemical weapons (obviously with Doflamingo's backing), and the various parties tuning in to his "sales pitch". I'm quite interested to see Pekoms and Tamago watching, though as representatives of a not-so-scrupulous Yonkou like Big Mam/Mom, I suppose it's not that surprising. It does, however, bode ominously for the upcoming war between her and the Strawhats. I'm not familiar with the individual smoking a cigar - likely because it's his first appearance - but the figure with the sword makes me think of Hawkins...
Finally, fck yes! Eustass fcking Kidd is back!
The devil fruits of Mr. 5, Magellan, and Smoker are all practically subsets of CC's… The guy got pretty lucky.
Not completely of mr 5, as Caesar needs the castanets to detonate the explosive gas.
Two days in and we're already discussing Enel power levels.
I swear, anytime Oda goes on a break, AP goes on tangents even faster than usual.
Indeed. This thread will be a scary place a week from now.
The devil fruits of Mr. 5, Magellan, and Smoker are all practically subsets of CC's… The guy got pretty lucky.
Not so much of Smoker. There is more to smoke than just gas & CC creates only gas, not rest of what makes smoke
Not so much of Smoker. There is more to smoke than just gas & CC creates only gas, not rest of what makes smoke
Smoker's fruit, however, is ultimately cheapened by CC's. I had hoped that he could suffocate people with his smoke, or at least give people a smoke poisoning, but as it stands it does nothing better than the gas gas fruit…
- Magellan has the edge with his Venom Demon, nothing will top that level of poison.
- Mr. 5 is at least immune to explosions, while fire / explosion is CC's weakness. He can cover his weakness like Crocodile to a degree, but it is still a weak spot that can be abused.
Smoker's fruit, however, is ultimately cheapened by CC's. I had hoped that he could suffocate people with his smoke, or at least give people a smoke poisoning, but as it stands it does nothing better than the gas gas fruit…
Trouble with CC is that his fruit is catch-all for a lot of things. Gas is a state of matter after all, so by extension he can generate any matter, as long as it's a gas, while other logias are confined to their particular matter.
The only other one I can think of like this is Ace's mera-mera since fire it plasma, but ti seems he was only confined to that narrow range that we would consider "fire". In other words, it's not that Smoker's fruit is underpowered, it's that CC's fruit is grossly overpowered.
the only plus side on that is that smokers personality is more about catching people alive- something his fruit lets him do very well, he uses his smoke as a gaseous net if you will, it's possibly nerfed if the intent is too kill but he was already going on par with ace's DF back in the alabasta arc, ace said so himself.
- Magellan has the edge with his Venom Demon, nothing will top that level of poison.
- Mr. 5 is at least immune to explosions, while fire / explosion is CC's weakness. He can cover his weakness like Crocodile to a degree, but it is still a weak spot that can be abused.
Smoker's fruit, however, is ultimately cheapened by CC's. I had hoped that he could suffocate people with his smoke, or at least give people a smoke poisoning, but as it stands it does nothing better than the gas gas fruit…
The only thing I can think is that Smoker's DF grants him immunity against fire while CC seems to be vulnerable against it, but then, oxygen control…
I wonder… Could Doflamingo control a Logia user in their elemental form?
Trouble with CC is that his fruit is catch-all for a lot of things. Gas is a state of matter after all, so by extension he can generate any matter, as long as it's a gas, while other logias are confined to their particular matter.
The only other one I can think of like this is Ace's mera-mera since fire it plasma, but ti seems he was only confined to that narrow range that we would consider "fire". In other words, it's not that Smoker's fruit is underpowered, it's that CC's fruit is grossly overpowered.
Plasma isn't fire under any definition. Plasma is a state of matter involving electrons seperating from the molecules and encompasses such things as lightning. Fire is the rapid oxiation of a substance, ad since fire produces lots of heat and light, it can occasionally create plasmas from the gases involved in the reaction
Could CC control plasma since it's practically just ionized gas?
@O:
I'm pretty sure an arc will happen on his Island ( in some kind of medieval japanese contexte) and it will probably be next arc since more less one arc out of 2 is without marine and Kinemon island is marine free.
I would like that arc. But it is very unlikely that it will come soon, IMO. The point here is Momonosuke. Since he is captive, and that is a main reason for all the "good people" to fight, this is the arc for Kinemon to shine or at least to fight.
Think about it: where is Momonosuke? Do you see him appearing in some hidden corner of PH, after all of those experimented kids? I mean, this island doesn’t need more kids in pain for sure. My prediction is that Momonosuke is a more/less succeed case of experimentation, and that he is under Doflamingo's orders (against his will), maybe in Dress Rosa. So that Mugiwaras will have a powerfull reason to go there. But for sure, he is not in PH.
Now, if that is the case, I don’t see 2 closer arcs with the theme of samurais. The arc about that samurai’s country would come in a long time.
http://gifs.gifbin.com/2yu3sw37748.gif
I would like that arc. But it is very unlikely that it will come soon, IMO. The point here is Momonosuke. Since he is captive, and that is a main reason for all the "good people" to fight, this is the arc for Kinemon to shine or at least to fight.
Now, think about it: where is Momonosuke? Do you see him appearing in some hidden corner of PH, after all of those chained and experimented kids screaming? I mean, this island doesn’t need more kids in pain for sure. My prediction is that Momonosuke is a more/less succeed case of experimentation, and that he is under Doflamingo's orders (against his will), maybe in Dress Rosa. So that Mugiwaras will have a powerfull reason to go there. But fur sure, he is not in PH.
And, if that is the case, I don’t see 2 closer arcs with the theme of samurais. The arc about that samurai’s country would come in a long time.
I could see this, and having Kinemon as the Vivi for a couple of arcs.
But to be honest… I could also see his son on PH, and, the next island being Wano--Kinemon allowing the Strawhat's to enter as repayment for them helping find his son etc.
@The:
Could CC control plasma since it's practically just ionized gas?
Plasma and Gas are different states of matter, so no. Plasma is basically heated up gas. Caesar can't control the heat of his gas naturally.
By that logic, Aokiji should be able to control water, because it's just "liquid ice".
@The:
I could see this, and having Kinemon as the Vivi for a couple of arcs.
But to be honest… I could also see his son on PH, and, the next island being Wano--Kinemon allowing the Strawhat's to enter as repayment for them helping find his son etc.
wow, that would be a long path for Kinemon. But it is also possible and… yeah, he would be a cool guy to have in the Thousand Sunny.
Plasma isn't fire under any definition. Plasma is a state of matter involving electrons seperating from the molecules and encompasses such things as lightning. Fire is the rapid oxiation of a substance, ad since fire produces lots of heat and light, it can occasionally create plasmas from the gases involved in the reaction
Hmm, in my understanding any flame is plasma, apparently that is not the case according to wikipedia. Erm, what is a flame then, some other state of matter? Confused.
@The:
I wonder… Could Doflamingo control a Logia user in their elemental form?
He'd need 10^10^10^….^10 strings to control all of the particles in smoke/sand, or molecules in gas, or electrons in electricity, etc. Ice would probably just shatter and reform, magma and mud are liquid so he couldn't even grip that, photons and "darkness" are immaterial.... I don't see any of the logia's falling for that.
As for the fire/plasma discussion. "Fire" is not an "object" or a "state of matter." "Fire" is a reaction. It's the actual transition of organic molecules and oxygen turning into carbon dioxide and water. What we see/feel as "fire" is the heat and light that is released due to this reaction. That heat breaks apart molecules, producing plasma (ionized matter). So, technically, Ace is "organic molecules and oxygen," not heat/light/plasma/ions/etc. CC wouldn't be able to control plasma because it's actually a different state of matter (it's in the realm of Enel).
Hmm, in my understanding any flame is plasma, apparently that is not the case according to wikipedia. Erm, what is a flame then, some other state of matter? Confused.
It's a chemical reaction, not matter. The heat produced by the chemical reaction of combustion creates the orange light. Its why you can stick your hand or anything else through it without hitting anything.
The colored light comes from when the air adsorbs the excess heat produced by the reaction.
He'd need 10^10^10^….^10 strings to control all of the particles in smoke/sand, or molecules in gas, or electrons in electricity, etc. Ice would probably just shatter and reform, magma and mud are liquid so he couldn't even grip that, photons and "darkness" are immaterial.... I don't see any of the logia's falling for that.
Why do you say he's strings? Why couldn't he be blood or something of the sort? (What am I talking about… I don't think elements have blood (lolz)).
@The:
Why do you say he's strings? Why couldn't he be blood or something of the sort?
Because when a Logia turns into their element, so does their blood.