That was Stephens translation? Ok I will have to reconsider my stance then.
General 'Haki' Discussion
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really have to stretch your imagination to conclude that Blackbeard simply meant he has one hell of a right hook and, coincidentally, has a Devil Fruit that– DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!-- goes one tiny step farther than what everyone in the New World can do without a Devil Fruit.
"Been a while since you took a real punch, eh Ace?"
That's what he said, right? I don't see how it's so implausible for real to be referring to the fact that his DF actually took Ace's away, made him into a completely ordinary human again. The emphasis seems to be on the word "real" or "really" in your earlier paraphrasing of Stephen's translation. Couldn't that indicate that Ace has taken punches but this was the first "real" one he took for a long while? As in, to his body as a normal, DF-less human? Don't see the issue with that. I'm not oblivious to how it seems counter-intuitive at face value and from the perspective of what we knew back then, but with what we currently know I don't see how it's not a solid enough interpretation. Of course, it's always possible that the way the original text is actually phrased shoots this down (or it may support it) but we'll have to work with what we have for now.
And it doesn't go just one tiny step further. Blackbeard can completely stop both Paramecia and Zoan powers from working at all. It is certainly a method of attacking and damaging DF users that is unique in the world, like he says. I think we get too hung up on the hitting Logia users aspect. In retrospective, looking at the scene it really does seem to be the fact that Ace's DF was literally removed from him that carries the emphasis.
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You've yet to explain how they are different. Logia users cannot heal themselves,
They can't heal fatigue or blood loss or scars, but they repair open wounds constantly.
so any damage done to them is damage kept. I'd say all three are the same, with Blackbeard having the advantage of both gravity and, at least defensively, not having to worry about them using their ability on him while he is touching them.
As a logia, they can take what would otherwise be fatal wounds, like a decapitation, and heal their surface after the damaging element (water, rubber, seastone, haki) is gone.
As a normal ordinary human, if being forced to stay a human, any wounds they they take are permanent, and fatal.
They may not recover fatigue, and they may take wounds, but as logia, you can not kill them by breaking their body into pieces. That's a defense. Blackbeard's abilty cancels out their powers entirely. It doesn't JUST let him hit them, it makes them ordinary humans. Just like it transforms Luffy from rubber, into an ordinary human, while BB is holding him.
That's the key difference.
Haki is just a way to hit their natural bodies, just like their natural weakness allows, except anyone can do it. Hitting Crocodile with you fist covered in water gets the same effect as hitting him with a fist full of haki or seastone.
Again, the buggy example. He's an incredibly low tier logia. He is completely invincible to swords because of his fruit ability. However, his natural weakness is blunt damage. (As opposed to water, rubber, seastone, or haki.) Someone that actually hits him, hurts him, for real. And you can seperate his body parts… but he won't die. You can't take his head, and attack with a sword, and cut him, he'd just split.
But if Blackbeard grabbed Buggy, and cut him with a blade, he'd be hurt.
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@RobbyBevard:
Again, the buggy example. He's an incredibly low tier logia. He is completely invincible to swords because of his fruit ability. However, his natural weakness is blunt damage. (As opposed to water, rubber, seastone, or haki.) Someone that actually hits him, hurts him, for real. And you can seperate his body parts… but he won't die. You can't take his head, and attack with a sword, and cut him, he'd just split.
But if Blackbeard grabbed Buggy, and cut him with a blade, he'd be hurt.
So if he gets cut with a haki-infused sword,it would damage him like a normal person…
So that confirms that Mihawk doesn't have haki.Mystery solved.
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@Baou:
So if he gets cut with a haki-infused sword,it would damage him like a normal person…
So that confirms that Mihawk doesn't have haki.Mystery solved.
I like you, I hope they make you a mod.
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Isn't Buggy a paramecia type?
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@Baou:
So if he gets cut with a haki-infused sword,it would damage him like a normal person…
It would hurt him, but his ability would continue to work. He wouldn't bleed from it, but he'd feel the damage.
If Blackbeard held him and cut him in half, it would kill him.
So that confirms that Mihawk doesn't have haki.Mystery solved.
It just confirms he didn't think Buggy was worth his effort.
Isn't Buggy a paramecia type?
He is, but the principle is the same, just with bigger pieces and a more obvious cutting/hitting example. taking all the haki and specific weaknesses out of the equation.
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@RobbyBevard:
They can't heal fatigue or blood loss or scars, but they repair open wounds constantly. As a logia, they can take what would otherwise be fatal wounds, like a decapitation, and heal their surface after the damaging element (water, rubber, seastone, haki) is gone.
This is simply wrong. Never in the series has any logia user taken damage– water, rubber, seastone, haki-- and "healed their surface", let alone taken "fatal wounds". The suggestion itself is ridiculous. Am I wrong? Marco's Pheonix fire is the only one that can actually heal an inflicted wound. Here's an example: Akainu get's his ass handed to him; Akainu returns, still damaged. You of all people know that remembering to draw the blood and wounds on characters in every panel is taxing, so of course the art doesn't always maintain the "damage dealt"; for that matter, the same can be applied to anyone in the series, not just logia users. I'm getting off track though, regardless of what your opinion is of how a logia works, your theory still implies that when Blackbeard lets go of them, they would be able to repair their open wounds… so in the end even with your theory they are the same, not different. Seastone in particular is almost 100% identical to his ability to seal a Devil Fruit.
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Mihawk wasn't attacking Buggy though, he was attacking Luffy. Buggy was pulled into the fight as a distraction.
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Mihawk wasn't attacking Buggy though, he was attacking Luffy. Buggy was pulled into the fight as a distraction.
Yeah, and this explains why Mihawk didn't use Haki this time, since Luffy's devil fruit is weak against cutting attack.
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This is simply wrong. Never in the series has any logia user taken damage– water, rubber, seastone, haki-- and "healed their surface", let alone taken "fatal wounds". The suggestion itself is ridiculous. Am I wrong? Marco's Pheonix fire is the only one that can actually heal an inflicted wound. Here's an example: Akainu get's his ass handed to him; Akainu returns, still damaged. You of all people know that remembering to draw the blood and wounds on characters in every panel is taxing, so of course the art doesn't always maintain the "damage dealt"; for that matter, the same can be applied to anyone in the series, not just logia users. I'm getting off track though, regardless of what your opinion is of how a logia works, your theory still implies that when Blackbeard lets go of them, they would be able to repair their open wounds… so in the end even with your theory they are the same, not different. Seastone in particular is almost 100% identical to his ability to seal a Devil Fruit.
They don't recover damage. But giant gaping holes don't stay on their body either.
And yes, Blackbeard is like a giant walking seastone, that's entirely the point I've been making. He turns their powers off. He makes them ordinary people just by virtue of touching them, and takes away their defenses AND their offenses. Which is much more potent than JUST being able to hit them like Haki allows.
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@RobbyBevard:
And yes, Blackbeard is like a giant walking seastone, that's entirely the point I've been making. He turns their powers off. He makes them ordinary people just by virtue of touching them, and takes away their defenses AND their offenses. Which is much more potent than JUST being able to hit them like Haki allows.
With that i can`t agree because even when touched with a seastone the ability is still present in the person.(here for example is Luffy in the sea but still a rubber-guy)
And for all we know a seastone is nothing else as concentrated seawater in a non-liquid shape.BB power is unique because you
re a ordinary human as long as he has contact with you..means the damage you take during that time takes your ordinary ordinary body. So even after the contact is gone and you
re again a logia-user the damage can`t be redone.
You sure can turn into your element again but you still have the wounds or the damage and your DF-body has to deal with it.Now being hit with a weakness of yours,seastone or haki your body can be damaged/touched like a normal body, but your body still posesses the ability and stayed the entire time a DF-body and by that less vulnerable as your ordinary body.
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Mihawk wasn't attacking Buggy though, he was attacking Luffy. Buggy was pulled into the fight as a distraction.
Yeah, and this explains why Mihawk didn't use Haki this time, since Luffy's devil fruit is weak against cutting attack.
Then he cuts him again,and looks confused cause nothing happened.He cuts him first in half,which was meant for Luffy
Then he slices him again.
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i thought about Buggy getting sliced by Mihawk and then remembered that Ray said that haki allows you to attack logias intangible body as if it were normal, but if your normal body can't be cut then no amout of haki equiped sword will cut it… (just giving a possible explanation)
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@statu:
i thought about Buggy getting sliced by Mihawk and then remembered that Ray said that haki allows you to attack logias intangible body as if it were normal, but if your normal body can't be cut then no amout of haki equiped sword will cut it… (just giving a possible explanation)
This is what I believe as well. It is is simply the exclusive perk of the Bara Bara no Mi - being immune to all sorts of cuts no matter what. Same goes for Berri Goods devil fruit, allowing him to be immune against punches.
Luffy being extremely resistant to blunt attacks is merely a minor (albeit useful) side-effect to the main perk of the gomu gomu no mi: expanding your body and being rubber.
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@statu:
i thought about Buggy getting sliced by Mihawk and then remembered that Ray said that haki allows you to attack logias intangible body as if it were normal, but if your normal body can't be cut then no amout of haki equiped sword will cut it… (just giving a possible explanation)
This is what I believe as well. It is is simply the exclusive perk of the Bara Bara no Mi - being immune to all sorts of cuts no matter what. Same goes for Berri Goods devil fruit, allowing him to be immune against punches.
Luffy being extremely resistant to blunt attacks is merely a minor (albeit useful) side-effect to the main perk of the gomu gomu no mi: expanding your body and being rubber.
Way to use a horrible analogy, when Luffy is attacked by Haki infused attacks his rubber body fails to protect him from damage as it normally does.
http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/One-Piece/431/019.jpgHaki infused sword attacks would cut Buggy, regardless of his body's paramecia properties.
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Way to use a horrible analogy, when Luffy is attacked by Haki infused attacks his rubber body fails to protect him from damage as it normally does.
Haki infused sword attacks would cut Buggy, regardless of his body's paramecia properties.
We can't say that for certain. Ambition allows somebody to bypass the fruit-users defenses, allows them to hurt them. This is shown in fruits that have powers that have good defense, such as Logia's and Luffy's. But we're talking about a fruit that has the power to not be hurt by a specific form of damage. Even Luffy doesn't have this. His power isn't to be bullet proof, being bullet proof is a side effect of being rubber. Meanwhile Buggy's power is specifically to let him split his body, and be immune to cuts.
As far as I'm concerned, Buggy can be slashed, and he will separate but feel hurt. As if that part of the body was chopped off, but it wasn't bleeding. Almost like the phantom limb pain some amputee's feel.
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if a haki infused sword made contact with buggy he will be cut for sure and he will fell pain and there will be blood . but if buggy split his body before the cut happens no harm would be done. there should be no DF that is immune to haki that is the logic behind haki but it is true that a normal sword would not affect buggy
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Based on what little we can see of Smoker's face this chapter and his rapid rise in two years from Commodore to Vice Admiral, I thought of an interesting possibility: what if a blind person can use Kenbunshoku Haki (Mantra) to "see"? Since it's essentially a precognition "sixth sense", I see no reason why someone who has lost their natural sight can't use it to simulate vision and still live normally. Granted, it'd be kind of a ripoff of the Miraluka species in Star Wars, who use the Force to see, but still… it would be something new to bring to the table in One Piece. It actually makes sense, and could easily be explained in the One Piece World. Plus, how badass would Smoker be, blind but still kicking ass as a Vice Admiral?
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Way to use a horrible analogy, when Luffy is attacked by Haki infused attacks his rubber body fails to protect him from damage as it normally does.
http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/One-Piece/431/019.jpgHaki infused sword attacks would cut Buggy, regardless of his body's paramecia properties.
The analogy isn't horrible, maybe I was not clear enough:
There are 2 different categories of paramecia. Those which alter the body permanently (Luffy) and those which require activation (Robin, Buggy, Jozu etc).
Haki may work on Luffy because his power, similar to a logia, affects his whole body at all times. But this doesn't mean that the same goes for Paramecia's that require activation. The difference between the 2 types becomes clear when both come in contact with sea stone: Robin just lost her power while she was handcuffed, while Luffy is completely disabled, loosing all of his physical strength on top of the gomu gomu no mi abilities. So it is no stretch to think that if Sea Stone has different effects, haki may as well (to the point of being useless). I think it makes absolute sense that the one and only perk of the bara bara no mi is to be immune against slashes, no matter what.
The other explanation would be that Mihawk didn't use haki to slash Buggy, which is absurd in my opinion. You guys think he kept slashing him up multiple times (without haki) even after he realized that the initial slash had no effect?
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require activation (Robin, Buggy, Jozu etc).
What exactly makes you think Jozu needs to activate his power? I'd guess he's the same as Mr. 1 who is definitely perpetually steel.
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Mihawk wasn't attacking Buggy though, he was attacking Luffy. Buggy was pulled into the fight as a distraction.
Yeah, and this explains why Mihawk didn't use Haki this time, since Luffy's devil fruit is weak against cutting attack.
So this confirms he doesn't have Mantra, not seeing Buggy incoming? :ninja:
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What exactly makes you think Jozu needs to activate his power? I'd guess he's the same as Mr. 1 who is definitely perpetually steel.
Well, yeah maybe - was just giving an example for "activating paramecias", and Jozu's depiction in the anime kinda looked like that. But you are right, maybe it was not the best example to illustrate my point.
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I wish people wouldn't act as if Mihawk not having Haki takes away from his title of world's strongest swordsman.
There's a reason he's a government dog and not a yonkou, or even in a yonkou's crew.
Shanks may be able to defeat an army of marines and Akainu, but in a sword to sword fight would lose or tie to him.
Having said that, Mihawk probably stands no chance against an admiral.
Then again Oda stated Lucci could take out Enel without haki, so that statement could be wrong without Mihawk knowing haki.It's not that complicated, I don't understand why people need to have a swordsman win a marksman competition, when the swordsman is obviously blind (fine for a sword, not so much for a gun).
If he does have haki, it's probably focused on CoO, it doesn't seem like he's mastered CoA at all.
@Juvar:So this confirms he doesn't have Mantra, not seeing Buggy incoming?
But this is a good point against it as well.
He could just have insane perception abilities, while lacking mantra.
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I wish people wouldn't act as if Mihawk not having Haki takes away from his title of world's strongest swordsman.
There's a reason he's a government dog and not a yonkou, or even in a yonkou's crew.
Shanks may be able to defeat an army of marines and Akainu, but in a sword to sword fight would lose or tie to him.
Having said that, Mihawk probably stands no chance against an admiral.
Then again Oda stated Lucci could take out Enel without haki, so that statement could be wrong without Mihawk knowing haki.It's not that complicated, I don't understand why people need to have a swordsman win a marksman competition, when the swordsman is obviously blind (fine for a sword, not so much for a gun).
If he does have haki, it's probably focused on CoO, it doesn't seem like he's mastered CoA at all.
I'm absolutely with you there, I don't understand the hype around Mihawk as well. He is a Shichibukai, he kicks ass like the other Shichi's, and he is the greatest swordsmen (in a world where devil fruit powers and haki are where it is at, most of the time). So I too don't understand how people come to conclusions like Mihawk = Admiral or even on par with a Yonko. I simply don't see the backing arguments except "he is badass".
However, haki isn't something special anymore. Every damn Vice-Admiral can utilize it (sorry Nolus), and now a mere 330 million berry subordinate of Big Mum demonstrated it. I don't know how high you guys value Pekoms bounty or performance, but to me it depicted that haki is baseline in the NW - and it kinda should too for a Shichibukai like Mihawk.
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But who said Mihawk does not have Haki?
He was simply not giving a fuck, in the war. Swinging is sword around. He, Boa Hancock and Doflamingo treated the war like a play ground (Mihawk was even bored).But Haki never was portrayed as something everyone has. I mean, in the war of the strongest Akainu bothered commenting on Haki user's, if everybody had it he wouldn't bother commentating.
I just think people now ways to circle around Haki. Kairoseki weaponry, pure fighting habilities, Hax Akuma no mi's. Not everything should get down to HAKI, and only strong fighters of Big Crews should have it.
And having it does not equal being god.
But we will check this out soon enough, no need to worry. -
I don't think Buggy's fruit requires conscious activation on his part. He will need to be able to react to Mihawk's fast as hell slashes, which I doubt he is able to do. So I assume that his fruit activates automatically when his body is about to get cut. Which means that Haki imbued sword won't be able to cut him either, because the blade simply won't make contact with his body no matter what.
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I don't think Buggy's fruit requires conscious activation on his part. He will need to be able to react to Mihawk's fast as hell slashes, which I doubt he is able to do. So I assume that his fruit activates automatically when his body is about to get cut. Which means that Haki imbued sword won't be able to cut him either, because the blade simply won't make contact with his body no matter what.
But the blade has to make contact for Buggy's power to activate (that's how reflex works), and if Haki does negate immunities granted by Devil Fruits, then Buggy will be hurt. Mihawk simply didn't bother using Haki or was just toying around.
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WAIT! Since Ambition allows one to bypass a Fruit User's ability, maybe it would play out like this: Buggy could be cut, and bleed(bypassing the defense of his fruit) but he could reattach the limb because that is another part of his ability, and Ambition is no longer screwing with the ability since there is no longer contact.
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WAIT! Since Ambition allows one to bypass a Fruit User's ability, maybe it would play out like this: Buggy could be cut, and bleed(bypassing the defense of his fruit) but he could reattach the limb because that is another part of his ability, and Ambition is no longer screwing with the ability since there is no longer contact.
Well, yeah, but it would still hurt like hell.
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Well, yeah, but it would still hurt like hell.
Oh yea. And he would lose blood too. If Oda goes this way it actually works out nicely, he can be hurt, but have the chance to reassemble his body.
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Don't know why the power level thing was brought up again with Mihawk, but he could've always not used haki just because he didn't want to. I believe that using Haki requires a strong intent or will to do something. With Luffy and Buggy, it's very possible that he didn't have any intent on outright killing them, simply stopping them with normal means. I mean did he use haki when he slashed Zoro? Probably not, because he let Zoro live. When he just slices Buggy the second time, maybe his reason was to make him freak out and run away.
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Oh yea. And he would lose blood too. If Oda goes this way it actually works out nicely, he can be hurt, but have the chance to reassemble his body.
buy i still dont see oda making mihawk and buggy go head to head sooo we might never know unless we ask oda
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Don't know why the power level thing was brought up again with Mihawk, but he could've always not used haki just because he didn't want to. I believe that using Haki requires a strong intent or will to do something. With Luffy and Buggy, it's very possible that he didn't have any intent on outright killing them, simply stopping them with normal means. I mean did he use haki when he slashed Zoro? Probably not, because he let Zoro live. When he just slices Buggy the second time, maybe his reason was to make him freak out and run away.
He didn't want to stop them by normal means. He wanted to test Luffy's fate - going as far as to severe his arms. If Luffy didn't activate his haki he would have died from that attack (or rendered powerless for the rest of his life).
Especially Mihawks words make it clear after Luffy got away for the first time:
"This is far from over" Mihawk wasn't playing around.
Well, and then came Vista.
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What I meant was not using Haki reinforcement because he could easily cut Luffy with his sword. This would explain how he doesn't outright kill Buggy when he slashes him. Maybe if he really wanted to, he could hurt Buggy with a Haki-imbued attack. It's a possibility that he didn't reinforce his attacks with Haki because he didn't feel like it was necessary.
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So…. If Zoro masters Observation Haki, does that mean he won't get lost anymore???
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So…. If Zoro masters Observation Haki, does that mean he won't get lost anymore???
hahaha he will still get lost i think it is for the comedy of it oda makes him a knuckle head
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So…. If Zoro masters Observation Haki, does that mean he won't get lost anymore???
Haha nope, he still will.
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Way to use a horrible analogy, when Luffy is attacked by Haki infused attacks his rubber body fails to protect him from damage as it normally does.
http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/One-Piece/431/019.jpgHaki infused sword attacks would cut Buggy, regardless of his body's paramecia properties.
He wasn't hit with haki but with the power of love!
What exactly makes you think Jozu needs to activate his power? I'd guess he's the same as Mr. 1 who is definitely perpetually steel.
What makes u think Mr1 is perpetually steel? both would shine all time if they were perpetual and they dont they only shine when we see the cosmetic
WAIT! Since Ambition allows one to bypass a Fruit User's ability, maybe it would play out like this: Buggy could be cut, and bleed(bypassing the defense of his fruit) but he could reattach the limb because that is another part of his ability, and Ambition is no longer screwing with the ability since there is no longer contact.
This is a misconcept HAKI does not negates a fruit power, only yami yami no mi does so, the sea drain the user power letting them flawless, and the HAKI of Armament only turn them normal solid as stated by Ray-san
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v61/c597/13.html
And the very last i think we could see buggy power as he let buggy body to became splitten and united again, so even with HAKI you can chop buggy arm that he would simply join it again painless
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Another very interesting fact is that it would make buggy imune to cut damage, and alvida sobi sobi no mi make her imune to blunt damage making then a very powerfull due -
I think buggy's body is just like Luffy,that it's always activated and will split apart when ever is cut by a blade,like when he threw his feet into the hell grass in level one,they automatically split at contact.
And a gorilla threw an ax at Buggy and it took him by surprise,and he still got cut
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if buggy had trained hard from the begining
He could of had already acquired Color of observation which would make him the swordsmans worst enemy
pretty much hee would be tank
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What exactly makes you think Jozu needs to activate his power? I'd guess he's the same as Mr. 1 who is definitely perpetually steel.
No. He has to activate it, otherwise he'd not have lost his arm after Ao Kiji froze him over…..
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Or maybe Aokiji used Haki.
I love loopholes.But well, why are we guys arguing over something that will be clarifyed in the near future?
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Just one question, probably discussed before, but hard to find at in all those pages.
Whitebeard and Hancock are supposed to have the Haoshouko-Haki, but isnt it odd that they dont use it to defeat enemies in the war? I mean if Whitebeard possessed the Haoshouko-Haki, then he should have been able to beat his enemies like Luffy did when he used the Haoshouko-Haki?
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Just one question, probably discussed before, but hard to find at in all those pages.
Whitebeard and Hancock are supposed to have the Haoshouko-Haki, but isnt it odd that they dont use it to defeat enemies in the war? I mean if Whitebeard possessed the Haoshouko-Haki, then he should have been able to beat his enemies like Luffy did when he used the Haoshouko-Haki?
All the enemies they fought in the war either can't be defeated by the Haoushoku Haki the way we see it used, or they were beaten with better attacks.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
No. He has to activate it, otherwise he'd not have lost his arm after Ao Kiji froze him over…..
Or how about Aokiji cooled the arm so much that it became really brittle and it shattered.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So…. If Zoro masters Observation Haki, does that mean he won't get lost anymore???
He'll use Observation to know who is around him and then use them as guide points to navigate his surroundings. The problem is: people move, so all his "guide points" make him confused and lost again.
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Or how about Aokiji cooled the arm so much that it became really brittle and it shattered.
No. Diamonds can't be affected by being frozen. He has to activate his power, we saw this when he pwned Crocodile - the anime does a decent job of showing how he activated it…
Its an activated power....which pisses me off even more - because why the hell wouldn't an experienced pirate like him protect himself properly when facing the Ice man? Bleh. It was a stupid fight - damn Oda--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Just one question, probably discussed before, but hard to find at in all those pages.
Whitebeard and Hancock are supposed to have the Haoshouko-Haki, but isnt it odd that they dont use it to defeat enemies in the war? I mean if Whitebeard possessed the Haoshouko-Haki, then he should have been able to beat his enemies like Luffy did when he used the Haoshouko-Haki?
Hancock had no reason to use it, and Whitebeard couldn't use haki because of his poor health. That is further proven by the fact that Marco commented on how WB would never have been caught off guard, even by a friend when Squard attacked him - because he shoulda saw it coming, and the fact he never used haki against any of the Admirals…..
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I think Hancock's questionable attractiveness is part of her haoshoku haki. I don't think that it comes with the devil fruit because they could have escaped earlier from the tenryubito with it.
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This post is deleted!
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I think Hancock's questionable attractiveness is part of her haoshoku haki. I don't think that it comes with the devil fruit because they could have escaped earlier from the tenryubito with it.
Maybe because she wasn't as pretty back then…she was still a child.
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I thought Haoshoku haki was something the person is only born with. and then like all other haki's it develops as the person's "will" develops.