I also thought about adding some other characters / demons. Isn't that pretty much what they did with the addition of Misa and Rem in Death Note? Near and Mello were more replacements for L….but they also added Teru Mikami, that business person, the reporter, and Misa who used Death Notes at some point.
Bakuman
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I'm not clear on the demon's objectives, but didn't they both want to destroy humanity? Weis by leaving humans alone and let them drown in their sins, and the black one by manipulating them into being worse.
The usual route to go would be to go darker, demons with darker powers than Zeiz, or somewhere between them, but what if they go the other way?
A benevolent demon, or an angel, someone who truly wants what's best for mankind, but using Zeiz methods.
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I think that Ashirogi Muto are obsessing over Eiji too much, and it will hinder their chances of getting an anime.
However, Saiko was right about the demons. When he first introduced the idea, I thought that it was strange too that they weren't really creating a world, but two characters. That won't go very far.
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I like Robby's idea but if Ashirogi won't go for it, there's always the famous JUMP formula that is…
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:ninja: -
Pretty good, though I'm not sure I really get the ending.
! So Reversi's weakness is that they can't swap out an antagonist if the current antagonist isn't popular? I mean, I guess I'd have to read it, but doing something like that sounds really contrived. I can't really think of any instances in which doing something like that has really worked. And as Robby said, if the antagonist runs the risk of being stale, introduce some side characters. Maybe introduce a new antagonist that takes the spotlight for an arc.
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! So Reversi's weakness is that they can't swap out an antagonist if the current antagonist isn't popular?
It happens in shonen manga all the time. Hell, Bakuman itself has the problem. There was the no-social interaction manga guy and nothing came of him after he went to some nght clubs. And Koogy, who just got shuffled off to a different magazine. And there was dog boy, who the series now tries to ignore as best as posible… Homewrecker bitch gets a little screentime, but not a whole lot because no one likes her, even as a villain. She's teamed with Eiji but she's never in a scene with him anymore.
Even theoretical main lead and love interest Azuki got shoved off camera for a year because her plotline was tough to follow and keep interesting. While at the same time, Hirimaru, who was probably meant to be a one off gag, ended up being fun and interesting to write, managed to start getting subplot in every single chapter
Or for a different example, Dragonball during the android saga. Old man and fat guy was poorly recieved... drag in two new villains. Just a pair of teenage kids, drag in a new villain. Cell isn't threatening enough, transform him. His second form looks terrible, transform him again.
It's not a problem One Piece really faces, because it island hops so the enemy is always changing and its never stuck with one setting or aspect for too long. Could you imagine if Hody was going to be the main villain for the next five years?
There's some give and take. especially when doing a weekly series, some ideas and characters don't always work out and its better to push them aside than to keep trying to include them in the narrative, when a better, stronger idea can take their place.
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@RobbyBevard:
It happens in shonen manga all the time. Hell, Bakuman itself has the problem. There was the no-social interaction manga guy and nothing came of him after he went to some nght clubs. And Koogy, who just got shuffled off to a different magazine. And there was dog boy, who the series now tries to ignore as best as posible… Homewrecker bitch gets a little screentime, but not a whole lot because no one likes her, even as a villain. She's teamed with Eiji but she's never in a scene with him anymore.
Even theoretical main lead and love interest Azuki got shoved off camera for a year because her plotline was tough to follow and keep interesting. While at the same time, Hirimaru, who was probably meant to be a one off gag, ended up being fun and interesting to write, managed to start getting subplot in every single chapter
! Yeah, that's true. But still, it's one thing to push a character to the side, and then it's another to do what Eiji did and just straight up kill a character (who was the main character's brother no less) just because he's not good enough. Of course, I think the worst part is that he didn't do it because the character wasn't interesting, but because the character wasn't interesting enough.
! I mean, I think a character should at least get decent enough closure before being sent off. Even homewrecker bitch and Koogy (the later of whom I don't think was ever even meant to be a long-term character) got some closure. And I'll be honest, I'm a little miffed we never got a follow up on True Human guy.
! Of course, I guess we'll never know exactly how Eiji executed it in his manga, so I guess my point is moot.Or for a different example, Dragonball during the android saga. Old man and fat guy was poorly recieved… drag in two new villains. Just a pair of teenage kids, drag in a new villain. Cell isn't threatening enough, transform him. His second form looks terrible, transform him again.
Yeah, I admit Toriyama handled the transition pretty well. And of course he still managed to do something fairly interesting with Androids 17, 18, and 20 (especially 18).
Then you have crap like Fairy Tail where Mashima introduces three replacement villains out of butt-fucking nowhere.
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As for this problem, given that they're only like 4 chaps in and they seem to be focusing on just fan votes instead of the bigger picture the answer is to make the story better given the genre. To me that's what the authors did with DN; all the twists and turns, suspense, the mystery, etc.
Now yeah Reversi might not be DN exactly but it's similar enough where to me that should do it. Adding new characters helps but from what I remember most of them were impediments to Light and L. Seeing as how this was presented as a problem, I suspect it'll be some type of "answer" instead of a practical one since it's not like we'll be getting the details of the story from chap to chap.
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! Yeah, that's true. But still, it's one thing to push a character to the side, and then it's another to do what Eiji did and just straight up kill a character (who was the main character's brother no less) just because he's not good enough. Of course, I think the worst part is that he didn't do it because the character wasn't interesting, but because the character wasn't interesting enough.
Well, he did it by what, the fourth chapter? Thats early enough that its a big huge early premise twist, still early enough to just be part of the world building and setup. It could be like Obi Wan in the in the first Star Wars.
And of course the usual problem with Bakuman is, while we get the gist of any given series and we can get by on tropes and association, we never get to see exactly how they pull something off, with rare exceptions. We just have to assume they're done it well because of how they talk about it academically.
It's not a weakness of the series perse, but it is an area I think where we'd like too see more at any given point. But I suppose that also just means they're doing their job right by making all these series sound interesting. Academically, at least.
I mean, I think a character should at least get decent enough closure before being sent off. Even homewrecker bitch and Koogy (the later of whom I don't think was ever even meant to be a long-term character) got some closure. And I'll be honest, I'm a little miffed we never got a follow up on True Human guy.
It's always possible that True Human guy will come back out of nowhere, but its been like a year in real time, and probably a couple in manga time. Its a shame, it really is just a random dropped plot point.
@Zik:
As for this problem, given that they're only like 4 chaps in and they seem to be focusing on just fan votes instead of the bigger picture the answer is to make the story better given the genre. To me that's what the authors did with DN; all the twists and turns, suspense, the mystery, etc.
I think we're supposed to assume that while they're keeping fan reaction and Eiji's talent in mind, they're still keeping their story as good and organic and coherant as possible. It's still too early in the series for them to do blatant fan bating like Bleach did when it brought back all the Soul Society characters after plummeting in rankings. But yeah, when the focus is constantly on the ratings rather than story, it gets harder to think of it that way.
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I don't see what the problem is here, the answer was obvious chapters ago. The black demon isn't meant to be the main antagonists, the demons are. The story is far more interesting if you have the two human characters fighting some petty fight against each other while the demons manipulate things in the background in the aim of bringing about everyone's demise.
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So Zombie Gun is like Devil May Cry with zombies instead of vampires.
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Here's what I like about Eiji. He's the typical natural genius rival that doesn't seem to try as hard as the protagonist(s) but does just as well and many times better, but he's also kind, helpful, honest, and even a bit naive. He's a fair rival and looks up to his opponents and goes as far as believing in them, encouraging them to do better so that he can beat them at their best. Yet, he doesn't give ground or slack off so you can get the best of him and you feel better about yourself. He believes he's the best and when he wants to prove it he does, and does it with style. If you want to beat him you have to rise up to the challenge and do it or fail. No hard feelings.
He's one of those rivals you can root though of course I am rooting for Ashirogi-Muto. At that time when Eiji was trying to end his manga though (Crow) I was definitely on his side.
As for the latest chapter I really enjoyed it.
Eventually I see the two protagonists in Reversi teaming up and saving the human race from the demons. A change of heart sorta thing but of course that couldn't happen for a while now. Definitely not a quick fix for the problem they have now. They just have to keep the 2 characters interesting. Hell, make them even more interesting. Develop their characters. Introduce more characters to pump up the cast.
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Maybe when they realize that Eiji is not their enemy the two demons will fight together.
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For those who do not watch the anime, here is the Crow opening that aired in episode 9. :D
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For those who do not watch the anime, here is the Crow opening that aired in episode 9. :D
Someday he'll make an anime for trap. lol.
But it's kinda sad when you remember how it all fell apart.
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Little side note:
Bakuman gets the spine of WSJ for 2012, this probably means no end for Bakuman in 2012 (credit goes to Prince) -
Little side note:
Bakuman gets the spine of WSJ for 2012, this probably means no end for Bakuman in 2012 (credit goes to Prince)Really? Now THAT'S interesting. Didn't it previously go to OP and then Naruto the next year?
I suppose they might only do it for the first quarter (12 or 13 issues) but still, interesting. Considering it really, REALLY feels like its at an end.
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One Piece, Naruto, Bleach and Kochikame had the spine of WSJ for their anniversary years respectively.
Meanwhile Bakuman, entering its four and seemingly last year of serialization, seems a bit out of place.
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One Piece, Naruto, Bleach and Kochikame had the spine of WSJ for their anniversary years respectively.
Meanwhile Bakuman, entering its four and seemingly last year of serialization, seems a bit out of place.
So, what manga had the spine in 2008?
2007 - One Piece (10th anniversary)
2008 - ???
2009 - Naruto (10th anniversary)
2010 - Bleach (10th anniversary… wait, wasn't it this year?)
2011 - Kochikame (35th anniversary) -
Wow, yeah that is surprising. I can't imagine (and frankly don't want) the manga to still be going at the end of next year. Maybe the spine will switch at some point.
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New chapter is here: http://manga.redhawkscans.com/reader/read/bakuman/en/0/158/page/1
There is even a popularity poll…
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This chapter felt strange, it was almost as if it was an insider commentary on how they wanted Death Note to be a short masterpiece, but Jump/outside forces forced them to extend it due to popularity.
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Geez, they really are airing out all their Death Note dirty laundry on this one, aren't they?
Does this mean Azuki's greatest role is going to be Misa Misa? One of the worst female leads in recent memory?
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This chapter felt strange, it was almost as if it was an insider commentary on how they wanted Death Note to be a short masterpiece, but Jump/outside forces forced them to extend it due to popularity.
Can they really do that? I mean, haven't we always said that Jump allows manga-kas to end a series when they think it's appropriate?
Anyway, nice chapter I guess, but the lesson seemed kinda goofy and unnecessary. And Takagi was in full-on idiot mode this chapter.
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Yeah Takagi has gotten less and less believable as the series has gone on. I'm not even going to bring up the Nearatori arc again.
Here's my question though. Is it really conceivable that they would start serializing this new series without having ever discussed something so vital to storytelling as the length of the story itself? That seems utterly ridiculous to me.
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This chapter felt strange, it was almost as if it was an insider commentary on how they wanted Death Note to be a short masterpiece, but Jump/outside forces forced them to extend it due to popularity.
If Bakuman is any indication… with DN its not so much that they wanted to end the series half way and then HAD to make a lousy second half (as is common theory)... its that this pair of creators does story arcs as they think of them, and they sometimes forget about characters for a long time or create new terrible ones that they never do anything with.
L dying in Death Note was the clear cut turning point in the series becoming less interesting, because his replacements couldn't match up to him and the story went more over the top and beyond what it should be. But the actual art, storytelling, drama and mindgames stayed at the same calibur... its just the overall experience was weaker.
Bakuman was a completely solid series with consistently great chapters for two years on end, then last year they had a couple really weak arcs in a row with characters that weren't as strong as the ones that came before, and a few ideas that misfired. Thats the nature of writing and being creative, you can't get it right every single time. And because those arcs were weak, it seemed like stretching and filler... but it was needed to pace things to get to where we are now, in what reeeally seems like a final arc.
However, if "Reversi" reaches its natural stopping point, and they then decide to arbitrarily extend it because it really is doing well and they hate it the entire time, well, that'll be telling.
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Here's my question though. Is it really conceivable that they would start serializing this new series without having ever discussed something so vital to storytelling as the length of the story itself? That seems utterly ridiculous to me.
I'm not so sure. I think it's hard enough just to come up with an idea for an interesting story and then going through the process of getting it published in a magazine. And no author really knows how long their story is going to last. Akira Toriyama originally meant for Dragonball to end after the very first arc, and Oda had originally planned for One Piece to be much shorter.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with having a general plan for the story in mind, but no writer can know every single detail of how their story, which may run for many many years, is going to unfold right from the start. Writing is a constantly changing and evolving process and writers come up with new ideas all the time.
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I'm not so sure. I think it's hard enough just to come up with an idea for an interesting story and then going through the process of getting it published in a magazine. And no author really knows how long their story is going to last. Akira Toriyama originally meant for Dragonball to end after the very first arc, and Oda had originally planned for One Piece to be much shorter.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with having a general plan for the story in mind, but no writer can know every single detail of how their story, which may run for many many years, is going to unfold right from the start. Writing is a constantly changing and evolving process and writers come up with new ideas all the time.
Agreed, what Takagi was worrying about this chapter was a completely legit fear for a writer, whether he should write a story of quality or try to create a franchise story that'll have an anime and merchandise. I think there's a mid ground too, but few writers can rarely accomplish both, making a series that retains good quality over a long period of time can't be easy.
On another note, did anyone else notice an improvement in the art this chapter?
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Nice chapter, this page made me think of Bleach.
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I like how the focus of obstacles seriously went from Saiko to Takagi. Went back to what I mentioned about making the story better and now he's struggling to keep fans interested and gain more to remain amongst the top. Looking at what he was thinking about though, to me it seems he should have thought this out a whole lot more before they got serialized. Especially when he's thinking about after the main battle. Really makes me think of Death Note and everything after L's death.
Making it a quality is obviously important and I didn't think he was that focused on quantity to the point he thought out the story and was just thinking of ways to stretch it out like other flagship manga.
Good chap.
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The other thing is, Takagi would NOT have panicked about the limited run and single antogonist nearly so quickly… if Eiji hadn't switched his out 4 weeks in.
Otherwise it might have been a year before this particular problem occurred to him, or before it bothered the readers, rather than right out the gate.
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They worry about what Eiji's up to way too much if you ask me.
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They realy do. Gifted genius god of manga Eiji may be, but they are ALWAYS reacting to whatever he's doing and futzing with their own story as a result. Its one thing to get excited and fired up, and another to see what Eiji is doing as a challenge and to try and do it better… but when its so reactionary and back and forth to like... EVERY SINGLE THING HE DOES...
They never worry about what Road Racer Giri is doing, and its apparently been a consistent 2 or 3 place holder for some time.
Really I just want to see what Hirimaru and Aoki do, since her series is tanking and Hirimaru hates working on his. I still think them teaming up is the solution to go with... since Fukuda seems to be out of the running.
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Nice chapter. Shuujin is a great analyzer but he over thinks the situation at times which leads him into complicated messes which deliver sub-par names. This mostly isn't the fault of his brain though. His heart wavers and leads him to make…dumb decisions. He was thinking about Saiko and Miho's future and Shuujin is a pretty good guy when it comes to other people's feelings. It was like the real life PCP situation when people imitated the manga. He was worried about his influence on others and the fact that if people viewed his manga as too unfriendly and of bad influence it won't be turned into an anime. Thus, Saiko and Miho's dream won't come true. Again, thinking about others...but it made him deliver a less interesting story.
I think Shuujin needs to worry less and trust more in his own ability to make the situation better without holding back. I think we're seeing him reach that trust in himself this chapter. More so at least.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@RobbyBevard:
Really I just want to see what Hirimaru and Aoki do, since her series is tanking and Hirimaru hates working on his. I still think them teaming up is the solution to go with… since Fukuda seems to be out of the running.
Isn't Hirimaru still teamed up with Nakai (sp?) though? However you spell his name I hate the guy and would not want to see him team up with Aoki again. Of course, she could and would forgive him but he better pull off one HELL of an apology.
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Isn't Hirimaru still teamed up with Nakai (sp?) though?
Yes, and they are BOTH miserable in that situation. It was supposed to lead to wacky antics, but mostly its just blech.
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@RobbyBevard:
They realy do. Gifted genius god of manga Eiji may be, but they are ALWAYS reacting to whatever he's doing and futzing with their own story as a result. Its one thing to get excited and fired up, and another to see what Eiji is doing as a challenge and to try and do it better… but when its so reactionary and back and forth to like... EVERY SINGLE THING HE DOES...
Well, it's like that speech that I'm sure all our parents have given to us at one point or another, you shouldn't try to be better at something than someone, because their's always going to be someone who's better at it than you are. What matters is that you should try to better yourself by improving your strengths and identifying your weaknesses. I mean there's nothing wrong with having a rival and wanting to surpass him, but you're pretty fargone when you do this whole "anything you can do I can do better" schpeel.
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@RobbyBevard:
Yes, and they are BOTH miserable in that situation. It was supposed to lead to wacky antics, but mostly its just blech.
That's true. I just think it'd be a very awkward situation if Nakai, Hirimau, and Aoki ended up working together. I see that happening if Hirimaru and Aoki decide to combine forces because Nakai would also want to join up even if he was the 3rd Wheel. Though, they'd also make an awesome team with the different set of skills they bring to the profession.
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No, Nakai shouldn't work with Aoki again. Really he shouldn't be working with Hirimaru either.
The writers really have a lot of trouble ahead of them to try and ever redeem the character. But I don't think they're going to bother.
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I see them doing it, the whole redeem thing. He was likable at one point. The man who sat out in the snow to draw for the woman he loved.
He's still an asshole though.
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The incessant focus on Eiji really took it's full effect on them with the last challenge. They were #1 for a few weeks and got hyped about it. Eiji makes a change, goes to #1 and they go in to panic mode. Why? Cuz Eiji just spent like 20 weeks or something at #1 with Crow and the rest of Team fukuda couldn't stop him from ending his manga.
So when you come to Reversi which appears to be as good if not better than Zombie Gun and they start fudging with their own work once it seems like it's slipping.
The whole message of having a quality work over a stretched out piece of work seems like something the authors want to send to themselves when they were doing Death Note.
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I see them doing it, the whole redeem thing. He was likable at one point. The man who sat out in the snow to draw for the woman he loved.
That was sort of romantic at the time.
In hindsight, with how his character changed, its creepy as all get out.
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That and manga is such a gamble, you can't keep saying "If I get to X amount of chapters, I'll start the final arc." You don't have a luxury.
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@RobbyBevard:
That was sort of romantic at the time.
In hindsight, with how his character changed, its creepy as all get out.
I was just reading through volume 7 a while ago, and it was even implied at one point that Aoki might return Nakai's feelings. Strange how things turn out.
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I liked the message of this chapter. And Nakai is irredeemable, probably.
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That and manga is such a gamble, you can't keep saying "If I get to X amount of chapters, I'll start the final arc." You don't have a luxury.
So looking at where Bakuman is in the ratings, this isn't neccesarily the final arc. :P
To avoid stalling, I hope it is and that they end it att around 200 chapters, though.
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So looking at where Bakuman is in the ratings, this isn't neccesarily the final arc. :P
To avoid stalling, I hope it is and that they end it att around 200 chapters, though.
or they could fail at getting an anime and leave it up to their kids to be rivals to a 40 something year old Eiji
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New Chapter is out :http://manga.redhawkscans.com/reader/read/bakuman/en/0/159/page/1
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DO NOT GO TO RED HAWK MANGA. I got a win 7 fake antivirus virus on my laptop yesterday. The only windows I had open were my gmail, ap forums, mangareader, and I guess Red Hawk (checking for bakuman). I thought it was mangareader….
Today I went back to Red Hawk to read Bakuman and the same virus just re-infected my comp after I got rid of it using Super Antispyware, and Avast!
In case anyone gets infected, the virus shows up as a random 3 leter .exe file. Go to processes and end the process. Then you can run a boot time scan to wipe it out. Avast is a free antivirus and it did the job perfectly.
Just a warning...I don't trust mangareader either.
Just fyi I am using IE, which I know is a bit more vulnerable than chrome or firefox.
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Oh Hiramaru, you so funny.
Really though, this was a great and hilarious chapter and Yoshida was just as funny as Hiramaru. Awesome to see him freaking out like that and feeling obligated to make Hiramaru happy.
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Great chapter. As usual, Hirimaru's shtick is at its best when its not being completely one note… and when its a change of pace from the main storyline.
Guess its officially time to put down the Fukuda/Aoki flag (of course, it was a while ago, but...).
And really, I know this gets said every week, but the series is absolutely reaching its ending point, there's just no doubting it. Especially with two arcs about the leads in a row (first with Eiji, now the main two) about being able to end a series when its time rather than draw it out past the proper ending... I'll miss it when its done, but it'll be nice to have a series that wraps in under 5 years and 20 volumes for a change.
Tho I wouldn't complain about a spinoff of some sort.