Toriyama was involved in the short with Table. And that was terrible.
So I really don't care.
Toriyama was involved in the short with Table. And that was terrible.
So I really don't care.
It was meh-ish, I got a few laughs, with everyone wanting to fight the crazy aliens, is the Dragon Ball after Party.
Didn't Yamcha do something kind of cool in that?
He destroyed falling debris.
New DB movie?Sure,why not?Nothing bad in seeing some DB smackdowns in movie-budget animation.
i don't mind this. It's not like they're releasing a new movie every year. The last one we got was the table one and that was only really a special
@RobbyBevard:
Toriyama was involved in the short with Table. And that was terrible.
So I really don't care.
I don't get how that one was terrible at all.
I don't get how that one was terrible at all.
You mean aside from giving Vegeta a brother, which makes no sense and contradicts a ton of shit.
At least more degrading Freeza came from that special!
"Their power levels are equal to that of Freeza."
"Good, the kids can warm up on them."
You mean aside from giving Vegeta a brother, which makes no sense and contradicts a ton of shit.
Wow.. The entire series is full of bull shit, and that's where you draw the line?
Not when the senzu bean healed the hole in Yamcha's stomach? Not when Dr. Gero's plan was to create the perfect being that involved hunting down and absorbing two teenagers that he had in stasis?
Not when Piccolo merging with Nail and Kami gave him power boosts that made literally no sense? (Training at King Kai's should've brought him to goku's strength before namek, merging with nail somehow brought him above 1 Million?) (Kami was weaker than Piccolo Jr before Radditz, merging makes him twice as strong)
The entire special was comedic, and that was probably the only retcon that was at least plausible.
Wow.. The entire series is full of bull shit, and that's where you draw the line?
Not when the senzu bean healed the hole in Yamcha's stomach?
Senzu were established as having full regenerative abilities on anything short of death, including snapped necks, and their effect is almost instantaneous. It has nothing to do with digestion.
Not when Dr. Gero's plan was to create the perfect being that involved hunting down and absorbing two teenagers that he had in stasis?
They weren't supposed to be activated and loose for one thing… it was pretty clear Gero had difficulty controlling his androids. He only reactivated them out of desperation when unanticipated Super Saiyans kicked his ass. Plus, timetravel shenanigans. Cell wasn't ready to go then, he took years to mature. Cell wasn't just built, he was grown.
Not when Piccolo merging with Nail and Kami gave him power boosts that made literally no sense? (Training at King Kai's should've brought him to goku's strength before namek, merging with nail somehow brought him above 1 Million?) (Kami was weaker than Piccolo Jr before Radditz, merging makes him twice as strong)
Kami and Piccollo were seperated from the first time we met them. They were always at a far inferior strength to their true potential… and were trained on Earth rather than Namek. Nail (already the strongest of all Nameks) filled a temporary hole in Piccollo's power, then Kami brought him back to full strength. King Kai's training had almost nothing to do with Piccollo's power on Namek, (in fact, he was never even taught that we saw... and no one in that group ever learned Kaio-ken or spirit bomb. All they got was the 10x gravity weight training, and that only for a few days. ) The merging with Nail was most of where his power came from.
And that carried over later into the android upgrades, the Buu upgrades, and the fusions. Plus the multitude of power up transformations throughout the series, including Goku's were-ape mode from an early chapter of Dragonball, combinable super robots, Zarbon, Frieza, Super Saiyan, etc. Fusion and transformations were regular staple powerups of the series.
Fusion granting extra power was perfectly in line with Tien's 4 form split which divided his power.
Even aside from all that, the entire cast had exponential growth as they faced bigger and stronger things. They always met the level of their opponents, and everything on Earth sucked. Once they had stronger stuff sto train against, and higher expectations for potential, they were able to shoot higher.
The entire special was comedic, and that was probably the only retcon that was at least plausible.
So. All those DECADES Vegeta was desperate to get enough power to take out Frieza… when there's only a couple Saiyans left in the universe... when he's so desperate he's willing to go for the low class guy only as strong as Raditz... when he then spends 20 years hanging around Goku... when he prattles on endlesslessly about his pride and his noble birth and how he's born to be strongest... he doesn't think once about his ROYAL BLOODLINE brother? (Who for... some reason, seems to still only be 10 even at the end of Z?) And his father never mentions him? Frieza never thinks about him either for that matter? Trunk's birth or any of the movie adventures never get Vegeta thinking about him? Even mentioning him?
But Table somehow knows about Earth?
I took it that his brother was almost like a mistake. Weak and pointless, not really worth thinking about from someone like Vegeta.
He was so weak and pitiful even as a baby.
That's why they named him Table.
So he lives with that crappy name forever for being so weak.
Also, maybe no one gave 2 craps about him because he wasn't the First Born? I dunno.
Vegeeta didn't give a shit about his parents in any capacity ("I had already surpassed the king as a child!" or some such), why would he care about Tarble? Vegeeta only ever began to take his relatives seriously when Cell killed Trunks. Even then he goes on about how not only has Kakarrot and Gohan have surpassed him, but now Cell spits on him by spilling the heir he spawned from his loins? That's the kind of guy Vegeeta is, so I can totally see how he wouldn't even care about a Saiyan with zero combat ability, at least until his experiences on Earth.
@RobbyBevard:
(Who for… some reason, seems to still only be 10 even at the end of Z?)
To be honest,it was established that Saiyan bodies age at a much slower rate.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Though,it still makes no sense for him to look youngr than Goku...
Regardless of if Table was "lower class", Vegeta was desperate to get ANY Saiyan he could find. That including hanging around with a weakling Raditz, and then going after his even weaker power level of 5 brother. He was just counting on the moon transformation to add some power. Another Saiyan, ANY other Saiyan, (and especially of royal blood) would have been worth seeking out.
And all the times he went on and on about "being the last of our race"?
Kind of kills the entire point of the Frieza saga and his speech to Goku when he died against Frieza to say "You are the last Saiyan Kakkorot, avenge us…. oh and I have a little brother out there somewhere too."
At least Turles from Tree of Might had the decency to just be a random guy that looked like Goku without putting in a contradictory backstory. At least them being unaware of Broli (a filler non-cannon movie villain) makes sense since that was kind of a baby surviving the destruction of the planet. But for Vegeta to hang around Goku for thirty years, (And living with Bulma! Raising a son!) and have many many speeches about being the last, to only then go one day "Oh, and I have a brother."
Especially since Vegeta's reaction is not "Holy crap my brother is alive, how did you survive? I assumed you were killed with the rest of the planet when you were three!" (which, had it been the line, would have covered it fine) Instead, it was just "Oh yeah, it's my brother. Whatever."
To be honest,it was established that Saiyan bodies age at a much slower rate.
AFTER they reach adulthood. We saw Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten and Trunks all age like normal humans through childhood. If anything, Goku had an extreme puberty growth spurt when he was 16.
@RobbyBevard:
AFTER they reach adulthood. We saw Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten and Trunks all age like normal humans through childhood. If anything, Goku had an extreme puberty growth spurt when he was 16.
Dunno,I kinda remember Goku being a little chibi runt at the age of 15.Though he did have that quick growth spurt right after,but before that ,his body sure took it slow.Maybe they go through brief moments of accelerated aging during puberty and then go back to slow aging bussiness?Who knows.
As for the others,we didn't really see much of Vegeta's childhood and the rest are half breeds,not all Saiyan traits apply to them(like the whole physiological battle lust or that "our hair doesn't grow past a certain point" rule).
Regardless,Table should still look older than he does,seeing how he is older than Goku and all.
As far as Raditz goes, wasn't he at least powerful or notable enough that Freeza knew who he was? Plus, Vegeta's whole thing is pride - if he had a brother who was, in all likelihood, weaker than Raditz and Goku, I don't think he'd want to admit it, since it would go against his whole idea of royalty being better than commoners.
My out-of-left-field theory is that Grey's home planet, where Tarble lives, is some sort of magical Fountain of Youth planet. Or that Tarble and Grey have some sort of "Zefram Cochrane and The Companion" thing going on.
As far as Raditz goes, wasn't he at least powerful or notable enough that Freeza knew who he was?
Compared to the absolute grunts, and as one of the three Saiyans left alive that Frieza knew about, sure. He could have singlehandedly conquered a weakling planet Earth without much trouble. But he was still as weak as a Saibaman, and far inferior to Nappa, who was way below Vegeta.
His only real claim to power would have been were-ape form, which would have still made him weaker than Kewi or Zarbon.
@RobbyBevard:
Senzu were established as having full regenerative abilities on anything short of death, including snapped necks, and their effect is almost instantaneous. It has nothing to do with digestion.
I'm quite sure they have to eat it, since one bean can fill you up for 3 days. I mean c'mon.. that's just silly.
@RobbyBevard:
They weren't supposed to be activated and loose for one thing… it was pretty clear Gero had difficulty controlling his androids. He only reactivated them out of desperation when unanticipated Super Saiyans kicked his ass. Plus, timetravel shenanigans. Cell wasn't ready to go then, he took years to mature. Cell wasn't just built, he was grown.
AH yes, but that isn't the problem with the plan. It's everything but that. Dr. Gero created Cell to absorb the androids and defeat Goku? Okay, fine. But if he was so confident Cell could take down Goku why did he go outside? It's strange that he'd build something he'd have no reason to use, after all.. he was so sure he could beat Goku and the others. Why on Earth would you rush when you had a checkmate the entire time? It's just stupid.
@RobbyBevard:
Kami and Piccollo were seperated from the first time we met them. They were always at a far inferior strength to their true potential… and were trained on Earth rather than Namek. Nail (already the strongest of all Nameks) filled a temporary hole in Piccollo's power, then Kami brought him back to full strength. King Kai's training had almost nothing to do with Piccollo's power on Namek, (in fact, he was never even taught that we saw... and no one in that group ever learned Kaio-ken or spirit bomb. All they got was the 10x gravity weight training, and that only for a few days. ) The merging with Nail was most of where his power came from.
Nail wasn't strong enough to make Freiza break a sweat in his first form, so he's nowhere NEAR a PL of 1,000,000, and if Piccolo didn't receive a boost from King kai's training, he was still weaker than Nappa. That Ki combination between the two is not even close enough to put Piccolo stronger than the frieza's first form; especially since Piccolo was very weak at that moment.
It's bs that the merger conveniently got him to where it did, because in no other aspect of the series did ki sharing or fusion work like that besides the namekians.
The Kami fusion would've made more sense had Kami gotten stronger as Piccolo did, but based on what happened at the Budokai.. that's not the case. So how could that make Piccolo jump so much in power?
@RobbyBevard:
And that carried over later into the android upgrades, the Buu upgrades, and the fusions. Plus the multitude of power up transformations throughout the series, including Goku's were-ape mode from an early chapter of Dragonball, combinable super robots, Zarbon, Frieza, Super Saiyan, etc. Fusion and transformations were regular staple powerups of the series.
Fusion granting extra power was perfectly in line with Tien's 4 form split which divided his power.
Not like the Piccolo fusions, the "Ki math" adds up in every single fusion except Piccolo's. Piccolo went from a PL of 1 million to stronger than a super saiyan by merging with a PL weaker than Radditz because it was his "other half".
@RobbyBevard:
So. All those DECADES Vegeta was desperate to get enough power to take out Frieza… when there's only a couple Saiyans left in the universe... when he's so desperate he's willing to go for the low class guy only as strong as Raditz... when he then spends 20 years hanging around Goku... when he prattles on endlesslessly about his pride and his noble birth and how he's born to be strongest... he doesn't think once about his ROYAL BLOODLINE brother? (Who for... some reason, seems to still only be 10 even at the end of Z?) And his father never mentions him? Frieza never thinks about him either for that matter? Trunk's birth or any of the movie adventures never get Vegeta thinking about him? Even mentioning him?
But Table somehow knows about Earth?
Maybe Vegeta had Table last on his go get list after Goku? Maybe Table slipped Vegeta's mind when he heard Radditz got killed, he could have any wish he wanted with Dragonballs, and he got his ass kicked by a low level Saiyan? King Vegeta didn't get many lines of dialogue so that point is kinda… and Table was banished for a weak PL, he wasn't sent to clean a planet like Goku so why would he mention Table.
Maybe Vegeta meant Goku was the last Saiyan who could possibly beat Freiza, not to mention he was on his death bed, not like he could go get Table. And Vegeta doesn't like his brother for being so weak… so why would he mention him? Especially when he never told Goku anything else about being a Saiyan.
Is it really that out there given what Vegeta went through that he forgot about him? He was pretty occupied with beating a low classed Saiyan who stole his dream and birth right.
"Oh by the way Kakorot, I have a younger brother... whose not strong... and on a planet far away... what was I talking about?"
I don't think Table did anything that damaging to the series or was that out there since he was just a continued running gag for the series.
And how he found earth? The same way everyone else found it?
I'm quite sure they have to eat it, since one bean can fill you up for 3 days. I mean c'mon.. that's just silly.
Vegeta and Krillin were in terrible shape, Krillin couldn't move a muscle and Vegeta couldn't stand. And it healed them to peak instantly. Gohan had a BROKEN NECK and it fixed him. Instantly.
They don't need to be digested to do their job. Feeding you for three days is a side effect, not a cause.
AH yes, but that isn't the problem with the plan. It's everything but that. Dr. Gero created Cell to absorb the androids and defeat Goku? Okay, fine. But if he was so confident Cell could take down Goku why did he go outside? It's strange that he'd build something he'd have no reason to use, after all.. he was so sure he could beat Goku and the others. Why on Earth would you rush when you had a checkmate the entire time? It's just stupid.
He got bored living in a cave on his own after 15 years? He wanted to try stuff out?
He was having trouble controlling the other androids and turned them off. (As far back as android 8 in the Red Ribbon saga in original Dragonball) He might have had similar doubts about Cell being disobediant. Besides, he was strong enough to easily crush anyone in the world, why wait? AND he has the 100% loyal 19 with him. He didn't know about Super Saiyan.
so he ended up running, desperately activated his backups with the intent to use the remote to threaten them into obedience… and got killed. And from there everything he had already running... kept running on its own.
Nail wasn't strong enough to make Freiza break a sweat in his first form, so he's nowhere NEAR a PL of 1,000,000, and if Piccolo didn't receive a boost from King kai's training, he was still weaker than Nappa. That Ki combination between the two is not even close enough to put Piccolo stronger than the frieza's first form; especially since Piccolo was very weak at that moment.
Fusions don't just add powers together, they multiply and enhance them and provide extra techniques. Its the only way the math works out, even at the Buu saga.
Same way transformations don't just double power (Zarbon's minor increase one aside) they increase it times 10 (were monkey) or times 20 (max kaioken) or even times 50 (super saiyan). Multipliers in the series tended to do more than just double a person's power.
It's bs that the merger conveniently got him to where it did, because in no other aspect of the series did ki sharing or fusion work like that besides the namekians.
Fusion dance and potara did exactly that. Just adding powers wouldn't be that significant, otherwise a pair could just fight an enemy 2 on 1 and be triumphant. Goten and Trunks couldn't go Super 3 on their own, but once they fused they could. Buu didn't eat them seperately, but waited for them to be fused before eating them… and subsequently had a massive power loss after the fusion ran out, even though he had both of them powering him either way.
Vegito, in his BASE form, completely dominated Super Buu (Who had three super saiyans and a namek and buu at that point) . If it was just Goku and Vegeta's powers combined, then without the 50x multiplier of Super Saiyan they should have been screwed... but fused they had more power than that in BASE form. That's way more than just a simple adding of their mutual powers.
Fusions bring a lot of extra power to the table. Not just adding the two together.
The Kami fusion would've made more sense had Kami gotten stronger as Piccolo did, but based on what happened at the Budokai.. that's not the case. So how could that make Piccolo jump so much in power?
Not like the Piccolo fusions, the "Ki math" adds up in every single fusion except Piccolo's. Piccolo went from a PL of 1 million to stronger than a super saiyan by merging with a PL weaker than Radditz because it was his "other half".
Again. Fusions multiply, not add.
And.. it was in fact his other half. If you had your legs cut off and were trying to fight in a wheelchair… wouldn't you suddenly fight better if you got your legs back?
When Tien did his TEMPORARY 4 body split... it cut his power into fourths. Despite all four having the same training and starting ability. Kami PERMANENTLY split his good and evil halves. That cuts half his potential power, period. No ammount of training will be able to get past half potential on him.
Refusing together gave him access to the other half of his ki flow, his good moral side... and a connection to his father, Piccollo Sr. That was a lot of genetic structure to throw back into him.
@RobbyBevard:
Vegeta and Krillin were in terrible shape, Krillin couldn't move a muscle and Vegeta couldn't stand. And it healed them to peak instantly. Gohan had a BROKEN NECK and it fixed him. Instantly.
They don't need to be digested to do their job. Feeding you for three days is a side effect, not a cause.
Fair enough.
@RobbyBevard:
He got bored living in a cave on his own after 15 years? He wanted to try stuff out?
He was having trouble controlling the other androids and turned them off. (As far back as android 8 in the Red Ribbon saga in original Dragonball) He might have had similar doubts about Cell being disobediant. Besides, he was strong enough to easily crush anyone in the world, why wait?
Because if I worked long and hard on something.. I think I'd want to see it do what I designed it for. The difference between 17,18 and the others was that he kidnapped them as teenagers off the street, so of course they weren't going to listen to him, the button was the only reason they did. 16, 19, and Cell were obedient to their programming… I find it strange that he couldn't see the correlation since he's so damn good at gathering data.
@RobbyBevard:
Fusions don't just add powers together, they multiply and enhance them. Its the only way the math works out, even at the Buu saga.
Fusion dance and potara did exactly that. Just adding powers wouldn't be that significant, otherwise a pair could just fight an enemy 2 on 1 and be triumphant.
Goten and Trunks couldn't go Super 3 on their own, but once they fused they could. Vegito, in his BASE form, completely dominated Super Buu.Fusions bring a lot of extra power to the table.
That's not necessarily true, it's much easier to fend off two weak punches than one STRONG one. And Gotenks going SSJ 3 made sense to me, SSJ + SSJ + hyperbolic time chamber training? Plus the combined ki means they can release bigger amounts of ki with half of the strain, which is a big deal.
And Goku was already stronger than Buu (not super buu), he wanted Gohan and Gotenks to finish him. Add to the mix a stronger than average SSJ2 to the ki of a SSJ3 and it only made sense that he was going to be way stronger.
Granted, I could be wrong, Elder Kai said something like Vegeta and Goku's fusion was more powerful due to their compatibility, so yeah.
@RobbyBevard:
Because… it was in fact his other half. If you had your legs cut off and were trying to fight in a wheelchair... wouldn't you suddenly fight better if you got your legs back?
It gave him access to the other half of his ki flow, his good moral side... and a connection to his father, Piccollo Sr. That was a lot of genetic structure to throw back into him.
Him getting stronger doesn't bother me, it's the power jumps that bothered me as a "quick fix" to keep piccolo relevant. They were foreshadowed of course, but it still feels forced when rereading the series.
Check above, I edited my post with other examples.
Buu's power level fluctuating with fusions deactivating, (even though he still had both kids inside him) as well as the sheer power Vegito had (base being far stronger than Goku or Vegeta at Super) says a lot about fusion multiplying power, not just adding it together.
The nameks were not an exception. All fusions were multipliers.
Also, 16 was NOT obedient to Gero. He wouldn't fight anything, same as 8. Its why he was deactivated.
Ah, I forgot about the Gotenks defusing part with Buu, so I guess I have to concede that point.
Wasn't #16's only programming to kill Goku?
@RobbyBevard:
Also, 16 was NOT obedient to Gero. He wouldn't fight anything, same as 8. Its why he was deactivated.
Wasn't Gero being scared of his power the reason behind him being deasctivated ?
Gero's goal was Goku's death and nothing more, and 16 was carrying the order.
Vegito, in his BASE form, completely dominated Super Buu
Man,Vegeto was damn awesome.
Infact,if fanbase is all crazy for HAXXX and "highest powah levelz",why don't they demand more of him instead of that dumbass Broly?Unlike Broly,Vegeto has a goddamn personality beyound screaming "Kakarrot!" and he's actually canon.
@RobbyBevard:
Check above, I edited my post with other examples.
Buu's power level fluctuating with fusions deactivating, (even though he still had both kids inside him) as well as the sheer power Vegito had (base being far stronger than Goku or Vegeta at Super) says a lot about fusion multiplying power, not just adding it together.
The nameks were not an exception. All fusions were multipliers.
Also, 16 was NOT obedient to Gero. He wouldn't fight anything, same as 8. Its why he was deactivated.
Only Goku and Vegeta's fusion by the Potara was said to be multiplier. In fact, Vegetto's PL is equal to Goku's PL multiplied by Vegeta's PL. That's fucking insane, his PL is far beyond even quadrillion (1,000,000,000,000). Vegetto was so strong because Goku and Vegeta were rivals. It was a special case for them.
It doesn't make any sense for other fusions to be multipliers. After all, even after fusing Kibitoshin was still weaker than SSJ3 Goku and couldn't make much difference in the fight against Kid Buu, according to the old Kaioshin. Kaioushin is stronger than Piccolo, who is above 200 million at that point. Lets give Kibito a minimal PL of 5,000,000, how strong Kibitoshin would be if their power was multiplied by each other thanks to the fusion? 1,000,000,000,000,000, which is certainly far, far, far above SSJ3 Goku.
There's no equation when it comes to the fusions, except for Vegetto's.
Not to be a smartass here, and I don't know how much this adds to the discussion at hand, but Base Vegito never fought Gohan Absorbed Super Buu. Vegito immediately transformed into Super Saiyan right away. The fight was anime filler. Like a lot of anime filler people use in discussions (like "SS3 Goku managed to hold Gotenks Absorbed Super Buu at bay and Gohan couldn't, so SS3 Goku is stronger", when that fight only took place in the anime).
Also, while I'll agree some power adders in DB were just bullshit, I wouldn't use numbers to portray it, cause that's just basically speculated PL's.
And I wouldn't state right away that Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo. I think Piccolo just didn't dare to fight against a super important universal authority. As shown later, Kaioshin was quite weak. He said he could kill Freezer with a single blow, but I think Piccolo merged with Kami should be able to do that just fine; add his constant training (which included a day in the Spirit Room, which made him quite stronger as stated by Goku) during, I think, 7 years. The fact that Kaioshin thought that facing fucking Babidi wasn't going to be easy, and how Piccolo slashed the bastard like nothing, makes me think that Kaio wasn't that strong compared to Piccolo.
After all, even after fusing Kibitoshin
Yeah,. but both Kibito AND Shin sucked. They were, both of them, only arounf Frieza level and terrified of even the most minor of Babidi's minions. They had no clue the Saiyans were anywhere near as powerful as they actually were (Super 1 surprised them and Super 2 outright dumbfounded them)… or he probably wouldn't have frozen Gohan in place and let them steal half the energy they needed... or let Goku and Vegeta fight and power up Buu in minutes.
For the god of the universe, they were far, FAR below the main cast, and massively uninformed. As evidenced by the fact their entire role was standing around slack jawed going "Wow, he's THAT powerful?" for 60 chapters. Piccollo probably would have creamed him in the tournament if he'd been willing to actually fight him. It's like saying "Well, when Yamcha and Tien fused the result wasn't that great!" "That time Goku was going to fuse with Mr. Satan? That was going to make him weaker!"
Cause there wasn't anything there to work with.
was still weaker than SSJ3 Goku and couldn't make much difference in the fight against Kid Buu, according to the old Kaioshin. Kaioushin is stronger than Piccolo, who is above 200 million at that point. Lets give Kibito a minimal PL of 5,000,000, how strong Kibitoshin would be if their power was multiplied by each other thanks to the fusion? 1,000,000,000,000,000, which is certainly far, far, far above SSJ3 Goku.
Where the hell you getting THAT number?
You don't flat out multiply one power times another. I don't know what the muliplier actually is, (Toriyama didn't either) but it's better than 50x (which is what we KNOW Super Saiyan is.) You add the two powers together and then multiply by somewhere between 50 and 100. That gets you the result that makes sense for a 20,000 Piccollo to jump to a 1,000,000+ Piccollo, (during Frieza… but still weaker than Frieza's third form) and for Vegitto to be stronger than Goku or Vegeta in Super 2 or Super 3.
Makes sense for the power jump Perfect Cell got compared to Penguin Cell as well.
You don't multiply by 5,000,000, that's just even more stupidly ridiculous.
Not to be a smartass here, and I don't know how much this adds to the discussion at hand, but Base Vegito never fought Gohan Absorbed Super Buu. Vegito immediately transformed into Super Saiyan right away. The fight was anime filler.
Oh yeah. But it was such GOOD filler. I forget, the buu saga padding when it comes to the fights was actually pretty good for the most part.
Regardless, in Super Mode, they completely toyed around with Buu like he was absolutely nothing. They were far above and beyond his power after going Super (despite everyone he had absorbed, including Goten, Trunks and Piccollo and powered up stronger than Super 2 Gohan) more than just combining their powers would account for, since Buu had straight up combined powers as well.
Really, power levels stopped making sense at Namek anyway, when characters were jumping from 2,000 to 20,000 to 200,000 to a million to 10 million in very short order with a combination of Saiyan healing trick and fusions and Super Saiyan…. damn those wacky Saiyan genetics. It made sense when, Vegeta getting beat within an inch of his life on Earth increased a couple thousand, a fraction of his normal power, and again after fighting Zarbon... (And it was this trait of being able to jump a "measly" couple thousand at a time that made them so feared.... given the scale of the universe at that point... but still weak compared to the Ginyu Force...) but then it just started jumping like crazy. Level of the opponent involved, I guess.
@RobbyBevard:
Yeah,. but both Kibito AND Shin sucked. They were, both of them, only arounf Frieza level and terrified of even the most minor of Babidi's minions. They had no clue the Saiyans were anywhere near as powerful as they actually were (Super 1 surprised them and Super 2 outright dumbfounded them)… or he probably wouldn't have frozen Gohan in place and let them steal half the energy they needed... or let Goku and Vegeta fight and power up Buu in minutes.
For the god of the universe, they were far, FAR below the main cast, and massively uninformed. As evidenced by the fact their entire role was standing around slack jawed going "Wow, he's THAT powerful?" for 60 chapters. Piccollo probably would have creamed him in the tournament if he'd been willing to actually fight him. It's like saying "Well, when Yamcha and Tien fused the result wasn't that great!" "That time Goku was going to fuse with Mr. Satan? That was going to make him weaker!"
Cause there wasn't anything there to work with.
Where the hell you getting THAT number?
You don't flat out multiply one power times another. I don't know what the muliplier actually is, (Toriyama didn't either) but it's better than 50x (which is what we KNOW Super Saiyan is.) You add the two powers together and then multiply by somewhere between 50 and 100. That gets you the result that makes sense for a 20,000 Piccollo to jump to a 1,000,000+ Piccollo, (during Frieza... but still weaker than Frieza's third form) and for Vegitto to be stronger than Goku or Vegeta in Super 2 or Super 3.
Makes sense for the power jump Perfect Cell got compared to Penguin Cell as well.
You don't multiply by 5,000,000, that's just even more stupidly ridiculous.
I'm not sure you understand what I was talking about. The official books revealed that SSJ multiplies the Saiyan's PL by 50, SSJ2 multiplies it by 2 and finally SSJ3 multiplies it by 4. As for fusions, there's no such equation - except for, like I said before, Vegetto. It is a fact that his PL is equal to Goku's PL multiplied by Vegeta's PL. Which means his PL is far above 1,000,000,000,000 if we use a minimal PL of one million for both Goku and Vegeta. Vegetto was on a whole godly level compared to even Buu after absorbing Gohan. Vegetto is BY FAR the strongest character.
As for Kaioushin and Kibito, it's not that they were such weaklings. It's that they were completely incapable of sensing and judging another person's PL. They assumed that Babidi's minions would be powerful, that's why Kaioushin was shocked when the Saiyans stomped them. It wasn't possible to sense Kaioushin's PL either, as Goku didn't know how strong he was. So Piccolo saying that they're dimensions apart doesn't really say for a fact that Kaioushin is far stronger than him. Piccolo said it out of respect, since he realized that Kaioushin is above the likes of Kaiou; it was the Kami inside of him speaking.
The only things we can say about Kaioushin's strength is that he was strong enough to one shot Freeza (whose PL is 120 million), and that he was the weakest of the four Kaioushins.
Freeza (whose PL is 120 million), and that he was the weakest of the four Kaioushins.
If thats what the book says, its wrong.
Freeza was around 500,000 in first form (stronger than Goku or Ginyu), a million in second (stated), and then incremental from there. Given then jump between his first two forms, (and that Gohan and Vegeta kept up,m however temporarily) probably 1,500,000 third form, and 2-3 million in fourth form… at 1/3 total power. So at full power he'd be at maybe the 10 million range. (never actually stated but makes sense.)
At tops he has to be around 12 million, not 120 million. That just skews the already nonsensical upgrades even more.
@RobbyBevard:
If thats what the book says, its wrong.
Freeza was around 500,000 in first form (stronger than Goku or Ginyu), a million in second (stated), and then incremental from there. Given then jump between his first two forms, (and that Gohan and Vegeta kept up,m however temporarily) probably 1,500,000 third form, and 2-3 million in fourth form… at 1/3 total power. So at full power he'd be at maybe the 10 million range. (never actually stated but makes sense.)
At tops he has to be around 12 million, not 120 million. That just skews the already nonsensical upgrades even more.
The 12 million is a mistake that almost everyone is already aware of, and have been for a long time now.
http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php
This is the best source for Power Levels, whether they're from the manga, anime or books such as Daizenshuu or whatever.
I'll stick with the lower math. It makes more sense, and follows what the manga actually demonstrated, guidebook be damned. Why would Freeza brag about his 1 million if he actually had 120 million still locked away?
In a scale where two more transformations take him up to 2 million, and that a third, its still ridiculous, but at least it scales within reason.
At that high a scale, nothing makes any sense. Even Toriyama wasn't tracking it at that point at any rate.
If Goku's power after the recovery was 3 million, Freezer can't be 12 million at his max. The Kaio Ken x 20 would have detroyed him…
The thing with the million is that it was the first time, for us, seeing such a high power, suspense purpose, I guess.
The Rampant Misspelling of Freeza's name gives me a sad.
Either Freezer or Freeza are technically right… Even Furiza...
Freezer would be wrong, his name is "Furiza" in Katakana, if it were "Freezer" it would be written "Furizaa" in Katakana like the Japanese name of Articuno from Pokemon.
Freeza is Freeza is Freeza. Period.
Well… I guess you're right then :ninja:
@RobbyBevard:
Why would Freeza brag about his 1 million if he actually had 120 million still locked away?
To intimidate Vegeta, for whom a power level that high was entirely unheard of. Captain Ginyu, the former runner up for the title of "strongest in the universe," was only 1/10 as powerful.
Anyway, the numbers for Goku and Freeza kind of HAVE to end up over 100 million. Goku using the Kaio-Ken x20, i.e. pumping himself up to TWENTY TIMES his normal power, barely even matched Freeza's 50% power. And he was already putting up a good fight against Freeza in the early parts of their battle without using the Kaio-Ken at all. Then considering that as a Super Saiyan, Goku was able to lay a beating on Freeza at 100%, it's pretty much impossible for their power levels to be under 100 million. Just do the math…
Freeza ~ 3 million
50% power ~ 60 million
100% power ~ 120 million
Goku ~ 3 million
Kaio-Ken x20 ~ 60 million
Super Saiyan (x50) ~ 150 million
And that's not from any guidebook; that's straight out of the manga itself, and is where the guidebooks got it from in the first place. It's easier to make sense of when you consider that at this point in they story, these two were pretty much set up as insurmountable demigods. The fact that they and others got even stronger as the story went on doesn't invalidate how strong they were then.
(You think powers of over 100 million are hard to swallow? It's almost certain that they were in the several billions by the time of the Cell Games…)
It was Freezzer in the latin american dub. As it was the best dub in the story of dubs of the whole universe, then that one is the correct spelling.
That's the reason I use, hahaha.
To intimidate Vegeta, for whom a power level that high was entirely unheard of. Captain Ginyu, the former runner up for the title of "strongest in the universe," was only 1/10 as powerful.
Anyway, the numbers for Goku and Freeza kind of HAVE to end up over 100 million. Goku using the Kaio-Ken x20, i.e. pumping himself up to TWENTY TIMES his normal power, barely even matched Freeza's 50% power. And he was already putting up a good fight against Freeza in the early parts of their battle without using the Kaio-Ken at all. Then considering that as a Super Saiyan, Goku was able to lay a beating on Freeza at 100%, it's pretty much impossible for their power levels to be under 100 million. Just do the math…
Freeza ~ 3 million
50% power ~ 60 million
100% power ~ 120 millionGoku ~ 3 million
Kaio-Ken x20 ~ 60 million
Super Saiyan (x50) ~ 150 million
Goku was using Kaioken nearly the entire time in their fight, it wasn't a late game changer addition that Fuhweezer had to suddenly deal with. Whatever power he had that was giving 1/3 Frieza a challenge, was his entire power.
You're adding an extra tier to their fight that wasn't there. If Goku's power is ~200,000 (Against Ginyu it was 180,000 after a Kaioken, then he had the saiyan near death upgrade) then
Goku- 200,000 thousand
Kaio-Ken x20 ~4 million
Super Saiyan (x50) ~ 12 million
Frieza 2 form- 1 million
Freeza 3 form- 1.5 million
Fuhreza 4 form bade (1/3 total) power- 3-million
Fridger 50%-5 million
Frhurehza 100%-10 million
Still keeps him well ahead of Goku, but lets Super completely stomp him.
…I'd forgotten how stupid DBZ power level discussions were. Just... go with whatever makes sense to you. Even Toriyama didn't know what the levels were at that point and anything made up for the books was after the fact and probably not straight from him..
Freezer would be wrong, his name is "Furiza" in Katakana, if it were "Freezer" it would be written "Furizaa" in Katakana like the Japanese name of Articuno from Pokemon.
Freeza is Freeza is Freeza. Period.
In English, architectual frieze (which is how its pronounced) is perfectly legit as a word. Its how the name was translated and merchandised and copyrighted for years. It's fair.
Yes, Freeza keeps the cold pun better, and it is MORE correct, but Frieza isn't inherantly wrong when we have i before e except after c or in wiegh, neigh, and science.
There's no point in discussing DBZ power levels. Saiyans always win.
But.. it IS invisible without the obvious aura. I have my volume in hand right now, I'm looking at the chapter its brought up. Check out chapter 118. (Or 312 starting from Dragonball) Goku is using it the whole time… and even after King Kai REVEALS as a surprise that Goku has been using it for a while already, its still shown without the distinctive aura (except maybe for a single panel) and Goku never calls it out by name before or after. Because Toriyama wanted it to be a SURPRISE REVEAL.
I will admit I had forgotten however, that he does start at only 10x, and then increases it to 20x.
In chapter 119 he goes to 20x and then has the distinctive aura for a few pages, the duration of one attack sequence. Frieza on the other hand has a distinctive aura nearly the entire time.
Then Goku switches to the spirit bomb tactic, and super saiyan follows shortly after, and that as an aura fairly consistently.
So true…
IIRC, the Anime elaborates on this and shows Son activating the Kaio Ken only the moments he needs it, that's why you don't see him using it.
Goku- 200,000 thousand
Kaio-Ken x20 ~4 million
That would imply that he was actually far,far,far weaker than Vegeta and the rest when he arrived at the scene and was merely hiding this by having KK10 all he time,which would make his return…pretty darn unimpressive,and for a series that excels at the "miraculously empowered hero has arrived to save the day and hype you to the edge of your seat" trope,that would be rather uncharacteristic.
Also:
1)Why would he be feeling all that amazed by his power up?He was utterly impressed with his latest jump in power and stated he didn't think he could power up this much.Why would he feel so exalted by a mere boost of over two times,when he had previously powered up by much greater margins?
2)Furthermore,why would that make him so confident?He could sense Ki of combatants while he was in the healing tank,he would have to know just how laughably outclassed his new "amazing" base PL of 200 000 would be.Yes,he has Kaioken,but that's a move that requires lots of energy,imposes massive strain on the body of whoever uses it,and,supposedly,can go very wrong in numerous ways if you aren't careful enough.That thing works as a trump card,but if you need it just stay in the same league as your opponent and the guys you're supposed to be saving,then that doesn't really inspire confidence.
Finally,if Vegeta can waltz into millions from a near death Saiyan power increase thing,then why must Goku be stuck on 200 000?
It ended like 10 years ago give it a rest people lol!