483: ''Searching for the Answer - Fire-Fist Ace Dies on the Battlefield''

[asm00200]

@I:

Look, it may well be that logia cannot use their power to go partial logia–you could be right--but we as of this moment do not know that for sure.

We can only work with what we have right now.

I can if anyone wants, though

Let's hear it, but I don't think this is the right place.

My best example is that Chopper can go full reindeer and is still a d/f user, so would still be a hammer–but he can also go into several partial shapes that are not fully human or reindeer

The thing is, Chopper's full reindeer form is one of his seven transformation. for any zoan, there usual appearance is one of their form, so they are still using their DF in that form.

We have also seen Ace light just his arm, or his top half, not his full body. We know that with enough practice they can control it to the point of not, in Ace's case, burning the hat he wove for little Oars.

Like Silverblade said, "to create fire" this is one of the abilities that logia users have. In ace's case he couldn't control his ability to create fire when making oars jr. hat, so ended up burning it. Practice helped him control his ability to create fire (not turning off his ability).
Ace's ability is confusing because of the fire, but if you look at others like kizaru, in this page..
[hide][/hide]
only his leg is light, yet Brook's attacks are passing through him which means his whole body is in logia state. People confuse Ace's ability because it's fire, so they think they need to see the fire to know he's using his DF.

Spoiler alert!!

! > We saw Luffy use gear 2 on just his arm recently as well. I don't see it as that much of a stretch that logias, with enough practice and training, could become some interim form, partial element and partial solid.
! I think this only applies to luffy, he's maximizing the use of his DF through the gears. And the properties of his DF isn't changing he can still stretch, he can't touch logia with only the gears, right?
Other DF users can work their abilities to the fullest, but can't change it's properties.

As for all the explanation, I know a guy who knows everything about DFs.

[LightningAce]

@KiShiDo:

But if someone is always in logia form how can they touc someone or even shaking hands with someone?

Look back to Ace vs Blackbeard chapter. Van Augur out of the blue shot Ace right through the chest. His power always remains active - just becuz he doesn't have have fire comin from his body at all times doesn't mean anything.

JEhlthP4iFA
forward to 3 mins 40 seconds.

Rest of his body appears normal but there we have a hole through his chest from where he got shot

[Monkey D]

@I:

Thing is, why? Why can magma make Ace solid if he's in his logia state? Every other time this has happened, there has been an explanation that made sense, so we've come to expect that. Water makes sand solid–shaky but yeah, ok. Rubber beats electricity because it doesn't conduct it--solid, so yeah. What is it about magma that makes fire solid? Could be said to smother the fire, since it's partially a liquid, could be that it's melted sand, basically, so that smothers fire too. Fine. A reasonable explanation. We can accept them, if not love them.

Or as I said 2 pages before, it's because magma "nourrish itself" from fire. Put some fire on a magma sea, and the fire will be "consumed/eaten" by the magma.

[Tank0047]

This post is deleted!

[Cyan D. Funk]

@Tank0047:

Phbbbbt…..
Ace's death was so lame.....
I thought that luffy wud be angry abt his death not sad....
I thought that his willpower wud spread in all directions causing effect to all the people including his father "Dragon"....!!!
The director cud even have introduced a new technique known as "Gear Four" i.e. 2x of
"Gear second"....
How cool wud that have been!!!

This is an excruciatingly stupid post.

[kagexp]

I know I'm late but…
ACEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOO!!!

I knew it would happen but... Everything seems so much more real on tv. :/

[FireFistAce 0]

@Vegard:

…Those were just issues with the subtitles, though… And really, how is it a problem that they refer to Dadan as a woman? It's not like her voice didn't already make that obvious anyway...

I said the Dadan thing was fine because you can't really have a gender neutral voice. It's not that big of a deal, it was just more surprising in the manga when Dadan was finally introduced and revealed to be a woman, not a man, like everyone expected.

As for his final words, it wasn't the subtitles. I may not be fluent in Japanese, but he clearly says "Arigatou" twice, and the last thing he says, in its own sentence, is "Arigatou", or "Thank you".

[Silverblade]

@LightningAce:

Look back to Ace vs Blackbeard chapter. Van Augur out of the blue shot Ace right through the chest.

When you encounter an enemy, who you chase for killing your crewmate - it is quite a smart decision to be prepared. As in "enter elemental state".

@Tank0047:

Phbbbbt…..
Ace's death was so lame.....
I thought that luffy wud be angry abt his death not sad....
I thought that his willpower wud spread in all directions causing effect to all the people including his father "Dragon"....!!!
The director cud even have introduced a new technique known as "Gear Four" i.e. 2x of
"Gear second"....
How cool wud that have been!!!

I'm not at a loss for words. I just wanted to quote this.

[dasia]

Conclusion: You know what in the end both partial and always active theories are compatible. You could say on one hand Ace has a basic always active mode as can be seen in Lightning Ace's clip .

The extreme of this,intensification,full mode,whatever,could be considered to be his flaming form whilst saving luffy right after being freed in ep 480 (might be better egs but cnt think of any). Now that shit he did with Akainu is the in between mode.I'll go on with that With this I can make sense of the 'body still there so fist went through even tough flaming' part.

http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=26302&page=104
LOL. I see this thread in a new light.

[I survived the buster call]

@asm00200:

We can only work with what we have right now.

Let's hear it, but I don't think this is the right place.

Yes I agree, so here's a link to where I talked about it once before

The thing is, Chopper's full reindeer form is one of his seven transformation. for any zoan, there usual appearance is one of their form, so they are still using their DF in that form.

Like Silverblade said, "to create fire" this is one of the abilities that logia users have. In ace's case he couldn't control his ability to create fire when making oars jr. hat, so ended up burning it. Practice helped him control his ability to create fire (not turning off his ability).
Ace's ability is confusing because of the fire, but if you look at others like kizaru, in this page..
(removed to save bandwidth)
only his leg is light, yet Brook's attacks are passing through him which means his whole body is in logia state. People confuse Ace's ability because it's fire, so they think they need to see the fire to know he's using his DF.

See? This is where this theory breaks down for me, actually–the making of that hat. I can see that the theory states that Ace can control how his fire spreads with enough practice, and this is how he can prevent the reeds from burning as he weaves them--the problem is that fire is incorporeal--he can't even hold reeds if he is insubstantial, right? He has to be able to be solid at times in order to do things like that, or have an arm wrestling contest with Luffy, or shake someone's hand, or even to hold a weapon. I agree that they are always by default in their logia state, but I take it further and think they need to train to turn solid at some times--because even if they can prevent it from spreading to someone when they touch them, it won't help if they are incorproeal--like light or fire--when they try to hold something or shake someone's hand etc. Can you explain that part? LOL

Spoiler alert!!

Darnit! I forgot to spoiler that in my post. Gotta go edit it–thanks for the reminder.

! > I think this only applies to luffy, he's maximizing the use of his DF through the gears. And the properties of his DF isn't changing he can still stretch, he can't touch logia with only the gears, right?
Other DF users can work their abilities to the fullest, but can't change it's properties. See I think the pictures we've seen of logia users at different times sort of tell the tale too. We've seen pictures of Ace and other logias where we see their entire bodies, where we see them as completely element, and where they have some of the element showing around their bodies. Not to mention that under certain circumstances they are forced into being solid (water on Croc, use of Seastone cuffs, and magma on fire, for that matter, lol, etc,) which I think negates the powers of the d/f, but doesn't change them from d/f users–I think a d/f user would still sink like a hammer wearing kairoseki cuffs, for example. I don't think that would in effect change the nature of the changes to their bodies, just make the power temporarily paralyzed, if you will.

As for all the explanation, I know a guy who knows everything about DFs.

Do you now? LOL.

[asm00200]

@I:

Yes I agree, so here's a link to where I talked about it once before

I'll look at it later.

See? This is where this theory breaks down for me, actually–the making of that hat. I can see that the theory states that Ace can control how his fire spreads with enough practice, and this is how he can prevent the reeds from burning as he weaves them--the problem is that fire is incorporeal--he can't even hold reeds if he is insubstantial, right? He has to be able to be solid at times in order to do things like that, or have an arm wrestling contest with Luffy, or shake someone's hand, or even to hold a weapon. I agree that they are always by default in their logia state, but I take it further and think they need to train to turn solid at some times--because even if they can prevent it from spreading to someone when they touch them, it won't help if they are incorproeal--like light or fire--when they try to hold something or shake someone's hand etc. Can you explain that part? LOL

I don't have a good explanation, but if you think about their clothes for example, it doesn't fall of them (unless you're implying ace was naked at that time..)
Things like this are taken for what they are, they're just there.

[m00n]

That was an enjoyable episode. The first in while that made me want to comment here.

[I survived the buster call]

@asm00200:

I'll look at it later.

I don't have a good explanation, but if you think about their clothes for example, it doesn't fall of them (unless you're implying ace was naked at that time..)
Things like this are taken for what they are, they're just there.

That would be ok, and all, if the whole incorporeal thing didn't come to play such a major roll in the plot, as it has come to. That is the whole problem that Kishido was wrestling with when he asked his question, not to mention that the whole reason Luffy needs haki is to combat that aspect of a logia user. It's not as silly a thing as why d/f users aren't naked all the time (and not just logias, but all d/f users who change their body shapes at all), in the end, see? That is why it's a worthy question to ask–because Oda himself asked it and gave us what is so far a partial solution in the form of both finding the weakness of the fruit (water for sand, etc) and now haki. And not to beat a dead horse, but I still believe there is more to be learned.

[THE SEA]

@Tank0047:

Phbbbbt…..
Ace's death was so lame.....
I thought that luffy wud be angry abt his death not sad....
I thought that his willpower wud spread in all directions causing effect to all the people including his father "Dragon"....!!!
The director cud even have introduced a new technique known as "Gear Four" i.e. 2x of
"Gear second"....
How cool wud that have been!!!

Even if this is satire it's still miserably bad satire. Hopefully you are trolling.

[Lord Starfish]

@Fire Fist:

As for his final words, it wasn't the subtitles. I may not be fluent in Japanese, but he clearly says "Arigatou" twice, and the last thing he says, in its own sentence, is "Arigatou", or "Thank you".

No, he didn't. He said "Aishite kurete… arigatou!" Exactly the same as the manga. They didn't change anything.

[Kishido]

@LightningAce:

Look back to Ace vs Blackbeard chapter. Van Augur out of the blue shot Ace right through the chest. His power always remains active - just becuz he doesn't have have fire comin from his body at all times doesn't mean anything.

JEhlthP4iFA
forward to 3 mins 40 seconds.

Rest of his body appears normal but there we have a hole through his chest from where he got shot

[qimg]http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2245/aceshot.png[/qimg]

please try to think one time and see the difference. i quit this shit

[Just_Gabe]

@Tank0047:

Phbbbbt…..
Ace's death was so lame.....
I thought that luffy wud be angry abt his death not sad....
I thought that his willpower wud spread in all directions causing effect to all the people including his father "Dragon"....!!!
The director cud even have introduced a new technique known as "Gear Four" i.e. 2x of
"Gear second"....
How cool wud that have been!!!

Stop reading Naruto. It makes you more stupid.

[LightningAce]

@KiShiDo:

please try to think one time and see the difference. i quit this shit

This is ur problem. You start this crap up yourself and then you get pissed at me for having refuted you. Whatever.
Its a stupid argument anyway. I can't believe i wasted this much time on it.

[Kishido]

You seriously are too cooky.

You simply don't see the difference in the 2 scenes you have shown. But you are right dunno why I have wasted my time with you. And you still can't answer my simple question with a logical explanation why Ace should do the shit he has done

Ace is always logia all the time but somehoe still is able to grab some stuff^^

Ace the hero

[Gameleon]

!
! Why could they show this Dragonball Kai scene on the same channel (fuji TV) by the same company(toei) and just half an hour before one piece, when halfbeard couldn't make it past the censors?

[Crossword]

That's an alien, not a human. You can generally get away with more violence against robots/aliens/monsters than you can with human beings. Plus, that scene was originally made around twenty years ago when standards were different, and I'd really doubt Toei would take the initiative to redraw that whole scene.

[MasterKingJC]

@Tank0047:

Phbbbbt…..
Ace's death was so lame.....
I thought that luffy wud be angry abt his death not sad....
I thought that his willpower wud spread in all directions causing effect to all the people including his father "Dragon"....!!!
The director cud even have introduced a new technique known as "Gear Four" i.e. 2x of
"Gear second"....
How cool wud that have been!!!

Rise of the 2011s!

[No Maam]

@Crossword:

That's an alien, not a human. You can generally get away with more violence against robots/aliens/monsters than you can with human beings. Plus, that scene was originally made around twenty years ago when standards were different, and I'd really doubt Toei would take the initiative to redraw that whole scene.

Que Samurai Jack having robots that bleed oil…..

even if that concerns green and blue hillbilly troll monsters preparing to roast and eat someone.

Television logic.

[MasterKingJC]

@Crossword:

That's an alien, not a human. You can generally get away with more violence against robots/aliens/monsters than you can with human beings. Plus, that scene was originally made around twenty years ago when standards were different, and I'd really doubt Toei would take the initiative to redraw that whole scene.

I think I see a solution here.

!

[RedRing]

Very emotional and sad episode. Only slow in a few spots, but overall, a good episode.

I figured the last "panel" would be more of a yell instead of a sob. But still really good.

[1000sunny]

@Gameleon:

!
! Why could they show this Dragonball Kai scene on the same channel (fuji TV) by the same company(toei) and just half an hour before one piece, when halfbeard couldn't make it past the censors?

If I'm not mistaken then that scene on DBZ Kai lasted all of like a few seconds (could be wrong here), and I think thats the major problem with showing WB's half-face….it lasts a long time and there are a lot of shots of him, Fuji TV could probably get away with a second or two of it but not an entire episode.

[LightningAce]

@KiShiDo:

Ace is always logia all the time but somehoe still is able to grab some stuff^^

Ace the hero

I got 1 response to that. Little Oars Jr's Straw Hat.

3 years prior to current events - Ace was a rookie - still relatively inexperienced with his logia power - kept burning up the Straw Hat - as his crew mentioned in the flashback. As he gained better control over his Logia - that was no longer a problem. He was able to keep his logia active whilst not burning up everything he touched.

I do get the point you are making - but you are wrong. Ace was fire - Akainu punched right through his fire based body - magma consumed his fire and burnt up his internal organs.

[Kishido]

So how does he made his arm solid? Or is it always non solid? Becaue Fire is NON-Solid. Even if he would have control over it how could he touch something?

Same for his damn body. You assume all this stuff and nothing was ever confirmed that logias can't be in a regular form and is always activated.

The Croc statement about the mastery to activate it at reflex is as sign and even the comedy Smoker/Ace hit.

But who cares. Believe yours, I believe something else and Oda will somedays explain it.

OK?

[SingingThroughTheStorm]

I am glad they didn't use Buggy filler. I was going to watch this on Hulu Plus when it was released, but I couldn't wait.
I will rewatch on Hulu plus though.

The ending seemed odd, his face had some much movement through all those scenes. I preferred the Manga here, but I think most people did. I am hoping they get the scene where Luffy is realizing that Ace is dead after regaining consciousness right. I found that scene much better than the war.

I didn't shed a tear. I shed it in so many other areas of the show, but this just wasn't a sad scene for me.
I disliked Ace when he disobeyed WhiteBeard to find BlackBeard. He didn't listen, acted like an idiot, and got himself and hundreds of others killed.

[Gladiator777]

@SingingThroughTheStorm:

I disliked Ace when he disobeyed WhiteBeard to find BlackBeard. He didn't listen, acted like an idiot, and got himself and hundreds of others killed.

if he didn't, Luffy would be dead meat now, thus the show is over.

[Cyan D. Funk]

@SingingThroughTheStorm:

I disliked Ace when he disobeyed WhiteBeard to find BlackBeard. He didn't listen, acted like an idiot, and got himself and hundreds of others killed.

You're aware that if Ace didn't act like a dumbass and go after Teach, there would be no plot beyond Sabaody, right?

[asm00200]

Beyond Water 7 actually.

[Josl]

Well I don't belive that Teach would have killed him. Just defeated and that he would have given him to the marines. They would have hold a puplic execution to kill the son of Dragon. They would have hoped for Dragon to show up who probably wouldn't have. Shanks would have shown up instead of Dragon.
Of course Ace would try to save his brother in probably the same way as Luffy did.
Whitebeard would have understood where Ace was going and would have followed him but he would have been interceptet by Kaido who seems to have a personal grude against him.
So all in all. There would have been a war where Shanks and Ace try to save Luffy instead of Luffy and Whitebeard trying to save Ace. It might have been more succesful but this is completely uncertain.

[y2kyle89]

This post is deleted!

[RedRing]

@SingingThroughTheStorm:

I disliked Ace when he disobeyed WhiteBeard to find BlackBeard. He didn't listen, acted like an idiot, and got himself and hundreds of others killed.

I believe also, that Whitebeard said something along the lines of pushing Ace TOWARDS disobeying him. I mean it was Ace's decision, but I thought that Whitebeard sort of steered him in that direction any way.

[Jack]

Alright episode, didn't feel a thing for ace though, didn't feel anything for him in the manga either. I found luffy's reaction much much better in the manga, really didn't like it here.

[DyranLK]

@Cyan:

You're aware that if Ace didn't act like a dumbass and go after Teach, there would be no plot beyond Sabaody, right?

It would be intriguing if Oda made a "What-If" spinoff concerning what would've happened if Ace never went after Blackbeard in the first place. The whole series would've become entirely different..

[SingingThroughTheStorm]

I am really excited for Chapter 590, when the anime gets there, I hope they do a good job. I found that just as sad as Ace's death. An amazing chapter, hopefully the anime can do it justice.

I think that the scene where Akainu was walking with most of his body missing was very well done. If they could do that, Halfbeard shouldn't be an issue.

[Dom64]

@SingingThroughTheStorm:

I think that the scene where Akainu was walking with most of his body missing was very well done. If they could do that, Halfbeard shouldn't be an issue.

Except he's made out of lava while Whitebeard's head is made out of flesh, blood, bones, and brains. At first I was disappointed, but then I realize this is understandable considering television censorship. I just hope they'll make up for it by making an awesome episode or showing Newgate's manlyness with something else.

[1000sunny]

@DyranLK:

It would be intriguing if Oda made a "What-If" spinoff concerning what would've happened if Ace never went after Blackbeard in the first place. The whole series would've become entirely different..

Yeah, the story would not be as good, Ace's death was one of the the biggest events in One Piece.

And I love how everyone blames Ace for this war because he chased after Blackbeard, when it was Blackbeard who actually killed Thatch, captured Ace, and then it was Whitebeard's decision to wage war for one person's life…how was this all Ace's fault?!?!

[Nolus]

Ace was a key person, but it wasn't mainly his fault.

[RPGJay]

Guys, if Ace didn't go after Blackbeard, Luffy would've very likely been killed by Blackbeard.

[MDL]

and i guess that if Ace never went searching for blackbeard, he'd have never run into luffy at alabasta and helped out.

[Davy Jones]

can't we all just write a petition to toei animation, demanding them to show us a halfbeard?

[triforcebih]

@DyranLK:

It would be intriguing if Oda made a "What-If" spinoff concerning what would've happened if Ace never went after Blackbeard in the first place. The whole series would've become entirely different..

Like I said. I wanna see what would've happened if Sengoku didn't hold Garp down.

[Crossword]

I imagine he wouldn't fare all that much better than Whitebeard did against him.

[Just_Gabe]

@KiShiDo:

Ace is always logia all the time but somehoe still is able to grab some stuff^^

It always makes me giggle at how retarded some people can look when they end their senteces with a "^^"

@triforcebih:

Like I said. I wanna see what would've happened if Sengoku didn't hold Garp down.

There would've been a half-akainu.

[Nolus]

@triforcebih:

Like I said. I wanna see what would've happened if Sengoku didn't hold Garp down.

Grave: Sakazuki "Akainu"
Rest in pieces

[Kaizoku]

What BGM is played when the Flashback of MF Arc starts and Ace says Thank you?

[LightningAce]

@triforcebih:

Like I said. I wanna see what would've happened if Sengoku didn't hold Garp down.

The hero of the marines woulda unleashed an almightly smackdown on the magma brat - that could only be surpassed by if done by Whitebeard.

Damn. No matter how many times i see the ending - it always makes me :cwy:

Not long now. I'm gonna enjoy seein Akainu get the crap kicked outta him by the worlds strongest man. What a treat we're in for.