Timeskip Predictions

[brennen.exe]

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

I understand that brennen and it pretty much points to him not being able to use haki but then how did Jinbei fight Ace for five days straight?

Well obviously no one can say at the moment, but given Ace's goal was Whitebeard– who was on his boat in the water– Jinbei (should have) had the clear advantage.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

Is magma that much better than fire or did the water Jinbei have nearby make that much of a difference?

Interestingly enough, the portion of my quote I cut out touched on this. In chapter 578, while running from Akainu, Jinbei says that if he reaches the water he will have the advantage. Maybe he was just referring to escaping and power users being unable to pursue in water, or maybe he thought that would give him some ability to counter attack. Honestly I'd say the former is the likelier of the two, but either way Jinbei still lacked the ability to do anything to Akainu, so he's in no position to teach, I'd say.

[Zik]

Yeah probably was trying to escape and he did have the advantage over Ace given Ace's goal.

Nothing's final but seems to me he's not in the running for teaching since it would appear he isn't that adept at it compared to AL warriors, Hancock, and Rayleigh.

[Mugiwara_no_Ice]

Nope I think he'd have an advantage - remember when Arlong got in a thight spot against Luffy - He went underwater and started his attacks from there.

[UsoppSpell]

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

Yeah probably was trying to escape and he did have the advantage over Ace given Ace's goal.

Nothing's final but seems to me he's not in the running for teaching since it would appear he isn't that adept at it compared to AL warriors, Hancock, and Rayleigh.

Let´s not forget Jimbei himself mentioning that he only has a fraction of his power outside of the water. We all heard him, now let´s believe him.

If he can take on Moria outside of the water comfortably, then if you multiply his power in the water it is conceivable that he can take on an admiral.

Perhaps Jimbei does not have haki. But remember that even haki users do not have the ability to reliably harm Akainu. So Jimbei´s "it´s useless" is not valid evidence to anything.

I´d put my money on Jimbei having haki, but his skillset is just so much more developed underwater that he can actually do some damage.

Regardless, his experience and strength make him extremely qualified to train Luffy in battle. There is no reason to have only one of either Hancock or Jimbei train him either.

[Zik]

@UsoppSpell:

Let´s not forget Jimbei himself mentioning that he only has a fraction of his power outside of the water. We all heard him, now let´s believe him.

I was thinking about that and as an observation/tidbit of information okay consider it but as a person that moderately/frequently engages in fights it's just an excuse. I think Jinbei was just being humble/modest.

So Jimbei´s "it´s useless" is not valid evidence to anything.

Akainu just complained how annoying haki users were and then Jinbei's attacks have no effects on him at all.

Regardless, his experience and strength make him extremely qualified to train Luffy in battle. There is no reason to have only one of either Hancock or Jimbei train him either.

The general consensus of ppl constantly talking about training have been for Luffy to learn haki not randomly pick up fishmen karate. So where as many characters would be qualified to teach Luffy something that's not really the type of fighter he is, he'll create new attacks and improvements to his fighting ability on his own. Haki is the only real thing we have seen so far where he'll need to be taught the basics.

I doubt Oda is going to change that dynamic of the manga where multiple ppl stronger than him are giving him training and he ends up with a skill set that's a mix of those who taught him. Just keep it freestyle.

[UsoppSpell]

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

I was thinking about that and as an observation/tidbit of information okay consider it but as a person that moderately/frequently engages in fights it's just an excuse. I think Jinbei was just being humble/modest.

I disagree. I´d rather believe in the words of a character that is extremely stoic, forward and direct as he makes an appreciation of his own strength. It´s a bigger assumption to make that he was being humble than taking his words at face value.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

Akainu just complained how annoying haki users were and then Jinbei's attacks have no effects on him at all.

What? Neither Marco nor Vista could put a scratch on Akainu at that time. Akainu said annoying. Annoying to avoid perhaps. Harder maybe. Assuming the translation is correct, annoying is annoying, not dangerous. That he didn´t say “annoying” when Jimbei attempted to strike him means jack squat. He was determined to reach them before they escaped, so commenting on how bothersome dodging some Haki blow would have been out of place and ultimately distracting and unnecessary. Again, it´s not evidence to anything.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

The general consensus of ppl constantly talking about training have been for Luffy to learn haki not randomly pick up fishmen karate. So where as many characters would be qualified to teach Luffy something that's not really the type of fighter he is, he'll create new attacks and improvements to his fighting ability on his own. Haki is the only real thing we have seen so far where he'll need to be taught the basics.

Sure Luffy needs the basics on Haki desperately. And the general consensus is, and I agree with it, that Luffy absolutely needs Haki more than anything else.
But who says that Luffy needs to be taught new moves? Sparring and trying out new things is another form of training, and it does not mean learning moves directly from the teachers, but simply to have a strong opponent where he can realistically fight and try out new things. Also, I´m amazed that people believe that the only thing that Jimbei can teach is Fishman Karate, even assuming he´s not a Haki adept. He´s strong, he´s fast, he´s experienced. He´s an excellent opponent with a superior fighting level and more experience for Luffy to fight against and learn to keep up. That is excellent training.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

I doubt Oda is going to change that dynamic of the manga where multiple ppl stronger than him are giving him training and he ends up with a skill set that's a mix of those who taught him. Just keep it freestyle.

Where does this notion that getting different information or training orientation will make Luffy change his fighting style? Luffy knows his strengths and has confidence (or will again) in the style he has developed.
Being taught or tested by Boa and Jimbei does not mean Luffy will end up screaming “MeroMero Sharktile Punch!” before he attacks.

[Zik]

@UsoppSpell:

I disagree. I´d rather believe in the words of a character that is extremely stoic, forward and direct as he makes an appreciation of his own strength. It´s a bigger assumption to make that he was being humble than taking his words at face value.

He was either being humble or he's oblivious to his strength on land or he happens 5x/10x stronger in water which only counts for when he fights other merfolk or fishppl. It's more of an excuse than anything and only counts for so much.

What? Neither Marco nor Vista could put a scratch on Akainu at that time. Akainu said annoying. Annoying to avoid perhaps. Harder maybe. Assuming the translation is correct, annoying is annoying, not dangerous. That he didn´t say “annoying” when Jimbei attempted to strike him means jack squat. He was determined to reach them before they escaped, so commenting on how bothersome dodging some Haki blow would have been out of place and ultimately distracting and unnecessary. Again, it´s not evidence to anything.

Annoying in that they're able to physically hurt him (whether it was a scratch or not) thus impeding his pursuit of Luffy. Jinbei could not do that.

But who says that Luffy needs to be taught new moves? Sparring and trying out new things is another form of training, and it does not mean learning moves directly from the teachers, but simply to have a strong opponent where he can realistically fight and try out new things.

This is what you have in mind? Seriously? It's not appealing at all in Luffy's situation. I disagree with this possibility. Luffy can keep getting strong on his own like he did with the gears.

Also, I´m amazed that people believe that the only thing that Jimbei can teach is Fishman Karate, even assuming he´s not a Haki adept. He´s strong, he´s fast, he´s experienced. He´s an excellent opponent with a superior fighting level and more experience for Luffy to fight against and learn to keep up. That is excellent training.

So what would he be teaching? How to handle fights in certain situations? Is this the type of training you want to see Luffy go through instead of handling them on his own? Luffy's always been gaining experience by fighting stronger enemies. That's not going to stop in the near future. I don't see Oda doing this. Rather see Luffy train on his own.

Where does this notion that getting different information or training orientation will make Luffy change his fighting style? Luffy knows his strengths and has confidence (or will again) in the style he has developed.
Being taught or tested by Boa and Jimbei does not mean Luffy will end up screaming “MeroMero Sharktile Punch!” before he attacks.

What exactly would Jinbei be teaching Luffy if he doesn't know haki? You said Jinbei is qualified to train Luffy. I'm saying that's irrelevant especially if it's not haki training. Also you're seriously telling me that a student doesn't take after their master in the art of fighting? It takes numerous fights for the student to come in to their own with the fighting style being taught.

[UsoppSpell]

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

He was either being humble or he's oblivious to his strength on land or he happens 5x/10x stronger in water which only counts for when he fights other merfolk or fishppl. It's more of an excuse than anything and only counts for so much.

Oh, so we haven´t seen techniques from Jimbei that allow him to hurt and cause damage from the water to dry land? And does he look oblivious to his own strength?

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

Annoying in that they're able to physically hurt him (whether it was a scratch or not) thus impeding his pursuit of Luffy. Jinbei could not do that.

Again. Not a scratch. Getting sliced through the jugular would mean that he had to have taken 0 damage in order to not get mortally wounded by that hit. There was potential to get hurt in that particular fight, I agree with you on that, and that is the reason he stopped, but that doesn´t mean that there was no potential of getting hurt by Jimbei.

Then, when chasing after a foe who is about to get away, a foe that acknowledges himself inferior and tries to run away, you think that what, he is going to stop and admire Jimbei´s punch as it slightly fazed him? Or do you think that he is going to forgo the comment and put a whole in Jimbei´s chest? The comment “useless” by Jimbei is addressing the possibility of stopping Akainu, and that it certainly was. There is no evidence to claim that that attack in particular had no Haki. At all. Please get this.

Bottom line, if a Haki imbued attack to a Logia can do little to no damage, then Jimbei´s punch could have had Haki and still be useless. Period.

Does this mean that Jimbei has haki? Obviously not. But the Jury is still out.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

This is what you have in mind? Seriously? It's not appealing at all in Luffy's situation. I disagree with this possibility. Luffy can keep getting strong on his own like he did with the gears.
So what would he be teaching? How to handle fights in certain situations? Is this the type of training you want to see Luffy go through instead of handling them on his own? Luffy's always been gaining experience by fighting stronger enemies. That's not going to stop in the near future. I don't see Oda doing this. Rather see Luffy train on his own.

You disagree with the possibility? You are saying that it´s not possible then? Because it is possible, even if you would not like it or deem it likely. Also you have to stop getting my words wrong. I´m not saying that Jimbei is likely to train Luffy if it´s not Haki. I´m just saying that Jimbei could potentially be a good training partner, and in the process Luffy can learn to keep up with another level of fighter without getting owned. I´m not saying I want this. I want the story to move forward, just like you. I don´t like training encroaching on story development time, and as you say Luffy has always managed to progress on his own. I was just saying that Jimbei is a superior fighter to Luffy at this time, and thus he could learn a thing or two from him. Also, that natural progression of Luffy as a fighter has hit a wall that is the New World, and someone will have to at the very least give him some pointers, if not train the lad.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

What exactly would Jinbei be teaching Luffy if he doesn't know haki? You said Jinbei is qualified to train Luffy. I'm saying that's irrelevant especially if it's not haki training. Also you're seriously telling me that a student doesn't take after their master in the art of fighting? It takes numerous fights for the student to come in to their own with the fighting style being taught.

So you believe that the only way to teach someone is to tell them to do exactly as you do? Is not showing errors or openings a way of teaching that makes you perfect a fighting style, even if the person showing you those mistakes is not a master of said style himself? Again, I don´t think this will happen in the story, I´m just saying that dismissing the possibility of Jimbei being qualified to train with is silly. Luffy could learn a whole lot of stuff just by fighting with Jimbei, in the same way he has learned so far just by fighting with other people.

I still think it´s Boa that has the most to teach Luffy, but since Boa can´t fight Luffy, it is conceivable, if unlikely, that whatever he picks up from Boa he can test out with Jimbei.

There´s one thing that is certain though. If Jimbei ever considers following Luffy as a nakama, then he will surely square off with Luffy to determine his worth as a man and a captain.

[Zik]

Oh, so we haven´t seen techniques from Jimbei that allow him to hurt and cause damage from the water to dry land?

When did I say that? Fighting in the water is not the same as on land and using some water.

And does he look oblivious to his own strength?

He could be if he rates his strength in the water that highly.

Then, when chasing after a foe who is about to get away, a foe that acknowledges himself inferior and tries to run away, you think that what, he is going to stop and admire Jimbei´s punch as it slightly fazed him? Or do you think that he is going to forgo the comment and put a whole in his chest? The comment “useless” by Jimbei is addressing the possibility of stopping Akainu, and that it certainly was. There is no evidence to claim that that attack in particular had no Haki. At all. Please get this.

I'm not saying Akainu should've commented on Jinbei's attack had it actually hurt him. I'm saying it didn't and Jinbei knows that since he commented that it was useless. A vein attempt. How could you disagree witht hat after saying this?:

I´d rather believe in the words of a character that is extremely stoic, forward and direct as he makes an appreciation of his own strength

The haki users actually came in and attacked Akainu thinking they could do something. Jinbei knew he couldn't. There's nothing pointing to him having haki. That scene indicated he doesn't have it and if he somehow does and used it in that attack he would be of no help.

You disagree with the possibility? You are saying that it´s not possible then?

I disagree that it is actually the case or that it has a high possibility or probability of being right.

So you believe that the only way to teach someone is to tell them to do exactly as you do?

When you're teaching them something specific yes. You're still not explaining to me what Jinbei would be teaching Luffy though. Just sparing with Luffy so he could try new shit can be done with anyone. Nothing special at all about that training.

I still think it´s Boa that has the most to teach Luffy, but since Boa can´t fight Luffy, it is conceivable, if unlikely, that whatever he picks up from Boa he can test out with Jimbei.

What else is she teaching him other than haki and the attributes of king's haki? I mean seriously test out with Jinbei? That's what you're arguing for?

There´s one thing that is certain though. If Jimbei ever considers following Luffy as a nakama, then he will surely square off with Luffy to determine his worth as a man and a captain.

Jinbei's already accepted Luffy's worth and said he decided he'd fulfill Ace's request and he's not joining anyway.

Also why is this certain?

Is not showing errors or openings a way of teaching that makes you perfect a fighting style, even if the person showing you those mistakes is not a master of said style himself?

So you're saying Jinbei is some genius or expert in fighting qualified enough to teach Luffy how to improve a fighting style he created? He can take tips from him I just don't see how Luffy wouldn't be aware of his own errors or openings.

You're also talking like Oda has really gone that in depth with the fighting styles he's introduced so far in the story. He hasn't done that.

I´m just saying that Jimbei could potentially be a good training partner, and in the process Luffy can learn to keep up with another level of fighter without getting owned.

I'm not disagreeing with that. A lot of ppl would be a good training partner for Luffy. I'm saying I don't think he needs a training partner.

[Robby]

Fishmen are 5-10x stronger in water, and have access to a water based moveset. This has been established since Arlong. Where the guy used water droplets like bullets. I don't see why there's any room for argument.

Jimbei has even shown usage of water techniques, on dry land, that push around air instead of water, and even those have been pretty strong. He has also shown ability to launch attacks that go out of water, (like when he blasted Luffy up to the execution plotform) and presumably his strength, already 10 x that of a normal human, is further amplified n the water.

Add into the weakness fruit users have in general, and swim speed, of course he's going to be far, far, FAR more dominant in or around water.

@SGRaaize:

Rayleigh managed to hide himself for a lot of years.

No he didn't. It was well known that he was there. But he wasn't causing trouble, and he was a RETIRED legendary powerful pirate, so he wasn't worth the effort and manpower of trying to capture. (Though Shakky did say something about him ocassionaly going out to raise his bounty for fun…)

Such wouldn't be the case for Luffy. Who is wanted by the world nobles and just orchestrated a Impel Down prison break and has revealed King's haki and alliance with the revolutionaries and managed to escape every competant marine.

He was a big nuisance before and had done some major things like take out a corrupt shichibukai and attack Enies Lobby. He's going to be a much bigger percieved threat and priority now. Hell. Aikanu would certainley take the time to make the side trip and finish him off, as opposed to the lazy crazy Kizaru.

[UsoppSpell]

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

When did I say that? Fighting in the water is not the same as on land and using some water.
He could be if he rates his strength in the water that highly.

You said that when you implied that his difference in strength in the water only applied towards fights in the water. Proving that he can attack from the water to the land or on opponents on land destroys that argument.

The comment on rating himself too highly is grasping at straws.

On the Jimbei stuff:

Dude WTF! You don´t want to piss me off with this. Nothing so far clearly indicates that Jimbei does not have haki. I don´t know what you understood in that scene, but you spout a large amount of bullshit in this analysis.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

I'm not saying Akainu should've commented on Jinbei's attack had it actually hurt him.

Ok, so…

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

I'm saying it didn't and Jinbei knows that since he commented that it was useless. A vein attempt.

Oh Jimbei knows?? And you know this from a conversation you had with him? What the fuck is this fact you bring out of nowhere? Jimbei says the attack is useless. Nothing else is said or implied but this. Especially not the shit you come up with. THIS DOESN´T MEAN HE ATTACKED WITHOUT HAKI. WHY? BECAUSE OTHER ATTACKS FROM HAKI USERS WERE ALSO USELESS AGAINST AKAINU.

These are the facts. You cannot conclude from them what you do. Understand this or I will stop answering you on this subject.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

How could you disagree witht hat after saying this?:

WTF are you talking about?

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

The haki users actually came in and attacked Akainu thinking they could do something. Jinbei knew he couldn't. There's nothing pointing to him having haki. That scene indicated he doesn't have it and if he somehow does and used it in that attack he would be of no help.

Again. A bunch of bullshit that I need to tolerate were you simply invent what Jimbei is thinking. With your logic, as dubious as it is, the sole fact that Jimbei attacks debunks all of your logic. How?

You say: The haki users Marco and Vista attack Akainu because they think they can hurt him.

Therefore Jimbei attacking Akainu means that he doesn´t think he can hurt him….

....

Wait... Really at no point in that logical argumentation did you stop yourself to realize that you have just contradicted yourself? Please...

IF JIMBEI DIDN´T THINK THAT HE COULD HURT AKAINU IN THE FIRST PLACE AS YOU SAY, THEN WHY THE HELL DID HE ATTACK HIM?!?!?!

Stop arguing this. There is no conclusive evidence that Jimbei does not have or didn´t attack with haki. Please read your argumentation carefully.

@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:

I disagree that it is actually the case or that it has a high possibility or probability of being right.
When you're teaching them something specific yes. You're still not explaining to me what Jinbei would be teaching Luffy though. Just sparing with Luffy so he could try new shit can be done with anyone. Nothing special at all about that training.
What else is she teaching him other than haki and the attributes of king's haki? I mean seriously test out with Jinbei? That's what you're arguing for?
Jinbei's already accepted Luffy's worth and said he decided he'd fulfill Ace's request and he's not joining anyway.
So you're saying Jinbei is some genius or expert in fighting qualified enough to teach Luffy how to improve a fighting style he created? He can take tips from him I just don't see how Luffy wouldn't be aware of his own errors or openings.

You're also talking like Oda has really gone that in depth with the fighting styles he's introduced so far in the story. He hasn't done that.
I'm not disagreeing with that. A lot of ppl would be a good training partner for Luffy. I'm saying I don't think he needs a training partner.

Look, I never argued in favor of Jimbei training Luffy in other non Haki subjects. The only thing I was saying, and you would know this if you at least tried reading my posts without getting all fired up over all the wrong things I don´t say, is that it would be silly to dismiss that Jimbei can´t teach Luffy anything. I even say that I don´t think this will happen, nor do I want it, but you keep fighting me on this as if I did.

But this isn´t even an argument I care for. The only thing I want to impress upon you and make it clear is that there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Jimbei does not have haki. I don´t really want to keep discussing the Jimbei teaching thing unless you really insist upon it, because I never argued in favour of Jimbei training Luffy in the first place. The only thing I said was that you can´t dismiss that Jimbei can´t teach Luffy anything.

You want to know what he can teach Luffy? It´s not theoretical content, assuming he doesn´t have haki, but Luffy can learn a lot from a person stronger than him kicking the shit out of him. This is all I´m saying, and you keep running circles and getting crazy on your own, even when you don´t disagree with this.

[Zik]

You said that when you implied that his difference in strength in the water only applied towards fights in the water. Proving that he can attack from the water to the land or on opponents on land destroys that argument.

If we're not talking about fights then what the fuck are we talking about? Strength in general? What do you think Jinbei was saying when he said he's not as strong on land as he is in water? Fighting in the water is not the same as fighting with some water at hand I never implied the two were the same.

Oh Jimbei knows?? And you know this from a conversation you had with him? What the fuck is this fact you bring out of nowhere? Jimbei says the attack is useless. Nothing else is said or implied but this. Especially not the shit you come up with. THIS DOESN´T MEAN HE ATTACKED WITHOUT HAKI. WHY? BECAUSE OTHER ATTACKS FROM HAKI USERS WERE ALSO USELESS AGAINST AKAINU.

These are the facts. You cannot conclude from them what you do. Understand this or I will stop answering you on this subject.

Given tha haki users and how they failed the scene with Jinbei points to him not having haki.

You say: The haki users Marco and Vista attack Akainu because they think they can hurt him.

Yeah cuz they have haki, and attempt to slow Akainu down.

Therefore Jimbei attacking Akainu means that he doesn´t think he can hurt him….

Desperate attack by Jinbei as he tried to escape wit Luffy.

IF JIMBEI DIDN´T THINK THAT HE COULD HURT AKAINU IN THE FIRST PLACE AS YOU SAY, THEN WHY THE HELL DID HE ATTACK HIM?!?!?!

He was desperate to do anything, it was useless as he thought but he tried anyway.

it would be silly to dismiss that Jimbei can´t teach Luffy anything.

Generally stating this is irrelevant. What exactly are these things that can be taught? This anything factor? Exactly what specifies Jinbei as the one to teach Luffy anything?

The only thing I want to impress upon you and make it clear is that there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that Jimbei does not have haki. I don´t really want to keep discussing the Jimbei teaching thing unless you really insist upon it, because I never argued in favour of Jimbei training Luffy in the first place. The only thing I said was that you can´t dismiss that Jimbei can´t teach Luffy anything.

I think the aforementioned scene indicates he doesn't have it but the evidence is circumstantial at best.

You want to know what he can teach Luffy? It´s not theoretical content, assuming he doesn´t have haki, but Luffy can learn a lot from a person stronger than him kicking the shit out of him. This is all I´m saying, and you keep running circles and getting crazy on your own, even when you don´t disagree with this.

It just seems inane to even suggest this would happen. If you're arguing if he could fine.

[Josl]

@Zik:

Given tha haki users and how they failed the scene with Jinbei points to him not having haki.

Wait! Are you truly believing that someone who fought Ace on LAND for DAYS doesn't have haki while THIS is having haki??

[Zik]

@Josl:

Wait! Are you truly believing that someone who fought Ace on LAND for DAYS doesn't have haki while THIS is having haki??

Jinbei had water on hand when he fought Ace. Plus it's Ace.

[Mugiwara_no_Ice]

Why is Zik back? I liked the mtbandityonkou guy more and Jinbei has/uses Ambition/Haki point à la ligne.

[Kaiolino]

I liked Jadosra the best.

[Josl]

@Zik:

Jinbei had water on hand when he fought Ace. Plus it's Ace.

Your Ace hate makes you really blind if you mean this seriously though I doubt it
You may should reread this part:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/07/
He had no water or water source. They were on dry land and fought for five days.

[Md-Martin]

@Josl:

Your Ace hate makes you really blind if you mean this seriously though I doubt it
You may should reread this part:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/07/
He had no water or water source. They were on dry land and fought for five days.

Ok, well that ship didn't come from nowhere. Ace probably drove Jimbei back when Whitebeard showed up

[UsoppSpell]

Hey look the old account! What gives?
@Zik:

If we're not talking about fights then what the fuck are we talking about? Strength in general? What do you think Jinbei was saying when he said he's not as strong on land as he is in water? Fighting in the water is not the same as fighting with some water at hand I never implied the two were the same.

But being able to fight from the water to land means he can be as strong as he is in the water and fight someone who is near the water, which I assume is what happened against Ace. What I mean is that that extra strength can come into the equation as to his fighting prowess against land-dwellers in general, when next to a body of water.

@Zik:

Given tha haki users and how they failed the scene with Jinbei points to him not having haki.
Yeah cuz they have haki, and attempt to slow Akainu down.
Desperate attack by Jinbei as he tried to escape wit Luffy.
He was desperate to do anything, it was useless as he thought but he tried anyway.

The big problem here is that you are stating things that Jimbei thought that we don´t know at all. You are basing your argument around a personal impression of a thought that is never expressed.
We do know that both Jimbei and Haki users failed in the attack, meaning that whether Jimbei has Haki or he doesn´t the outcome could have been exactly the same, thus we can´t know that Jimbei doesn´t have Haki because he failed.

@Zik:

Generally stating this is irrelevant. What exactly are these things that can be taught? This anything factor? Exactly what specifies Jinbei as the one to teach Luffy anything?

I think he is a great candidate to learn by experience because he is the only one who is greatly stronger than Luffy and is willing to spar with him should he need it. Hancock? I don´t think she can fight him without breaking down.
@Zik:

I think the aforementioned scene indicates he doesn't have it but the evidence is circumstantial at best.

Thank you, that´s all I´m saying. No real evidence.
@Zik:

It just seems inane to even suggest this would happen. If you're arguing if he could fine.

I am being absolutely positively inane, annoying and a nitpicker. I do not deny it XD. And yes that is what I was arguing.

[Zik]

@Mugiwara_no_Ice:

Why is Zik back? I liked the mtbandityonkou guy more and Jinbei has/uses Ambition/Haki point à la ligne.

@UsoppSpell:

Hey look the old account! What gives?

Natural selection.
@Kaiolino:

I liked Jadosra the best.

Did he just leave forever?

But being able to fight from the water to land means he can be as strong as he is in the water and fight someone who is near the water, which I assume is what happened against Ace. What I mean is that that extra strength can come into the equation as to his fighting prowess against land-dwellers in general, when next to a body of water.

All I've been saying is that Jinbei in the water > Jinbei on land with some water nearby > Jinbei on land with no water.

The fact that he lasted that long was probably cuz of the water nearby given Jinbei's comments about his strength on land compared to in water. It probably is a natural statement for any sea dweller.

The big problem here is that you are stating things that Jimbei thought that we don´t know at all. You are basing your argument around a personal impression of a thought that is never expressed.
We do know that both Jimbei and Haki users failed in the attack, meaning that whether Jimbei has Haki or he doesn´t the outcome could have been exactly the same, thus we can´t know that Jimbei doesn´t have Haki because he failed.

It's not just that's made me think he isn't a haki user. What was shown with the fight with Ace and him having water on hand factored in as well. The way I see it Oda hasn't hinted tht he can use haki or we would've got some hint or been told by now.

I think he is a great candidate to learn by experience because he is the only one who is greatly stronger than Luffy and is willing to spar with him should he need it. Hancock? I don´t think she can fight him without breaking down.

I'm just not buying in to the scenario where Luffy asks to spar or Jinbei says we need to spar so you can become stronger. In the end though Jinbei isn't the only guy there. He has a whole nation of haki users he could fight who would help him learn haki which is better than just regular old sparring. Say fighting the haki users without using the gears in attempt to make him use haki.

Thank you, that´s all I´m saying. No real evidence.

Circumstantial evidence

I am being absolutely positively inane, annoying and a nitpicker. I do not deny it XD. And yes that is what I was arguing.

Okay.
@Josl:

Your Ace hate makes you really blind if you mean this seriously though I doubt it
You may should reread this part:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/07/
He had no water or water source. They were on dry land and fought for five days.

Show me the off road wheels on the Moby dick.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/552/08/

[Jacoobus]

The idea that Marco and Vista's attack were as useless as Jinbei's doesn't make any sense. There is a big difference between an attack that's only slightly effective and one that's entirely useless, especially when you're fighting a Logia like Akainu. Marco and Vista didn't hurt Akainu much, but they were able to push him back slightly and avoid getting deep fried in the process. Jinbei on the other hand was unable to slow him down at all and was about to be turned into fish sticks.

Also it's important to note than Jinbei didn't bother to even try attacking Akainu directly until he was completely out of other options. In order to stop Akainu he was willing to sacrifice his arm, but did not bother even trying to attack him until he had no other way of attempting to slow him down. Marco on the other hand makes a point of trying to get in Akainu's face as soon as his Kairoseki cuffs are off. These are all strong indicators. There is no conclusive evidence that Jinbei can't use Haki, but if he does his level is clearly not up to par.

[HaxeyeMihawk]

Zik how did you get your original name back? But thank god you did, that last username was a pain in the ass to multiquote.

[Zik]

@HaxeyeMihawk:

Zik how did you get your original name back? But thank god you did, that last username was a pain in the ass to multiquote.

It was also apart of my master plan

[UsoppSpell]

@Jacoobus:

The idea that Marco and Vista's attack were as useless as Jinbei's doesn't make any sense. There is a big difference between an attack that's only slightly effective and one that's entirely useless, especially when you're fighting a Logia like Akainu. Marco and Vista didn't hurt Akainu much, but they were able to push him back slightly and avoid getting deep fried in the process. Jinbei on the other hand was unable to slow him down at all and was about to be turned into fish sticks.

Also it's important to note than Jinbei didn't bother to even try attacking Akainu directly until he was completely out of other options. In order to stop Akainu he was willing to sacrifice his arm, but did not bother even trying to attack him until he had no other way of attempting to slow him down. Marco on the other hand makes a point of trying to get in Akainu's face as soon as his Kairoseki cuffs are off. These are all strong indicators. There is no conclusive evidence that Jinbei can't use Haki, but if he does his level is clearly not up to par.

I absolutely agree with most everything. Just remember that Marco and Vista´s attack did not do ANY damage at all. Remember that he was slashed across his jugular. Any damage at all in that vital area would have been lethal or at the very least spouted a ridiculous amount of blood. In fact I believe that Oda chose this to leave it abundantly clear that Akainu avoided damage from a haki user, and that this is possible.

I am of the people that believe that levels of Haki determine how easy it is to damage Logias in general. I think that Jimbei could have Haki but not at a level of people that use it regularly or practice with it.

For instance, I have no problem believing that Jimbei could have haki but it isn´t strong enough to go through Akainu´s defense, just like Vista and Marco´s wasn´t for that particular attack. It doesn´t mean that I don´t believe that they couldn´t muster an attack strong enough to do so, otherwise Akainu wouldn´t have been as careful as he was, but there are levels of attack with Haki that Logias with experience and Haki themselves (Brennen refrain if you´re reading :D) can avoid with Logia defense. Thus, I believe that Jimbei does not have a level that is able to harm Akainu, who is the shit among Admirals.

But it is absolutely true that Jimbei could very well not have haki at all. I just think that he is too strong not to, at least at some basic form, clearly not at the level of Akainu, who seems to be Yonkou level and could only be potentially beat by one or if he is surprised by BB.

[Jacoobus]

I undrestand what you're saying but the facts remain. Regardless of how much physical damage was done, Marco and Vista were able to successfully fend off Akainu without getting hurt. Jinbei was unable to fend him off at all and got deep fried when he attempted to do so.

[Mugiwara_no_Ice]

@Zik:

It was also apart of my master plan

[qimg]http://9gag.com/photo/13467_540.jpg[/qimg]

Hahahaha damn I see what you did there. Very clever indeed.

edit: Jinbei stopped a magma fist with his hands people. How the heck could he do that without some haki.

[Zik]

@Mugiwara_no_Ice:

Jinbei stopped a magma fist with his hands people. How the heck could he do that without some haki.

With his hands and what you mean he stopped it? It still got through and landed on Luffy.

What you mean to say is Jinbei escaped death from a magma fist.

[Coolnerd89]

@Mugiwara_no_Ice:

Jinbei stopped a magma fist with his hands people. How the heck could he do that without some haki.

That's true, Ace must of also used haki to stop the magam fist with his chest.
:ninja:

[UsoppSpell]

@Zik:

With his hands and what you mean he stopped it? It still got through and landed on Luffy.

What you mean to say is Jinbei escaped death from a magma fist.

Nope, you are forgetting that he stopped a punch from Akainu way before having Luffy in his arms.

Then he declares that he´ll gladly sacrifice an arm blah blah blah more suicidal bullshit.

But he did get very burned.

[Monkey D]

@Jacoobus:

Also it's important to note than Jinbei didn't bother to even try attacking Akainu directly until he was completely out of other options. In order to stop Akainu

His goal was to run away with Luffy…Not to fight Aka Inu against who he knew that, haki or not, he wouldn't be able to win.

But yeah he should have say : "screw you Luffy, I'm going to show to everyone that I can hurt Aka Inu, even if in the end I lose and so condam you."

[Jacoobus]

@Monkey:

His goal was to run away with Luffy…Not to fight Aka Inu against who he knew that, haki or not, he wouldn't be able to win.

But yeah he should have say : "screw you Luffy, I'm going to show to everyone that I can hurt Aka Inu, even if in the end I lose and so condam you."

I like how you cut short my quote where I make an example of the scene where he was willing to sacrifice his arm, but didn't bother to attempt attacking Akainu. At this point he was trying to protect Luffy and Ace, but he wasn't carrying Luffy or attempting to run away. Then Marco and Vista come to bail him out and are able to push Akainu back slightly.

[Zik]

@UsoppSpell:

Nope, you are forgetting that he stopped a punch from Akainu way before having Luffy in his arms.

Then he declares that he´ll gladly sacrifice an arm blah blah blah more suicidal bullshit.

But he did get very burned.

I'm not sure how that negates anything I said. Other than talking about two different scenes.

[UsoppSpell]

@Zik:

I'm not sure how that negates anything I said. Other than talking about two different scenes.

It doesn´t. I´m just reminding you cause you were talking about something else.:ninja:

[Bucephalus]

I know that this is a few pages late, but what makes you guys think that the all the current Admirals and Sengoku will be gone by the end of the series?

I'm sure Sengoku'll have to retire sooner or later and Akainu will meet his death by the hands of Luffy, but I could still see Kizaru and Aokiji as major players in the Marines. Aokiji is the most open and logical Admiral, so I could easily picture him as the Fleet Admiral. Not sure what's going to happen to Kizaru though.

Also, damn. I wonder what's going to happen with the timeskip. Now would certainly NOT be an opportune time for one, and I don't see another opportunity in the near future…

[Zik]

Some people have it in their heads that Luffy will defeat all 3 admirals. The marines aren't going to be eradicated by then end of this manga.

I see Aokiji as fleet commander/admiral and Smoker as one of the new admiral's.

I can't call it with Kizaru.

[mr.french]

Luffy needs to defeat at least one Admiral. I also think that maybe even Zoro will defeat an Admiral as well. I say this because, to me it seems that Blackbeard will reach a power greater than even the Admirals, so it can be a good challenge, even for Zoro.

But, just thinking about it… it seems proper in the future for Luffy to defeat 1. a Vice Admiral. 2. a Yonkou. 3. Blackbeard. 4. an Admiral 5. and maybe a SB. Not exactly in this order, but generally, yes. Oh, and I agree that the Marines won't be eradicated. Just the dominant immoral dogmas that determine their actions will be erased.

[TLC]

Ao Kiji will probably join the Straw Hat side when the great Marine schism occurs.

[Zik]

I hope not. A marine joining pirates? One thing to let them slide, not pursue them, and once in a while keep a blind eye to their actions but siding with them outright?

Turrrible.

[Zkaiser]

He's talking about the great inevitable war that's going to go down near the end in which the Marines who follow Moral Justice side with the pirates against Absolute Justice.

I have always looked forward to this scenario.

[Zik]

I feel that's a turrible scenario. Moral justice marines teaming with pirates to fight Akainu and the WG?

I'm not even sold that there's a schism coming. There's just gonna be a view that survives/outlasts the other.

[Bucephalus]

Yeah, people like Smoker and Aokiji are eventually going to team up with Luffy to take down the assholes with the same attitude as Akainu and Lucci.

Naturally, Smoker, Aokiji and co. will win, forming a new government free of absolute justice and other deliberate cases of oppression.

And, of course, Oda will completely glaze over the fact that Smoker and Aokiji teamed up with pirates, who should be just as bad as Akainu's crew.

If it wasn't for the fact that Luffy has made so many fucking friends with Marines, I wouldn't say this. And frankly, I don't like this idea at all; it just seems highly likely considering the course of the series so far.

[Zkaiser]

It depends on what starts the skirmish. If the Government starts ordering mass genocide with Pacifistas, Ancient Weapons and crooked Marines then the do-good Marines are going to need support to stop them. In steps Peace Mains and Revolutionaries.

Shit, come to think of it, Dragon will probably be the one to stand against the WG and he'll call on the good Marines for support.

The Whitebeard War is small time compared to the war to come.

[brennen.exe]

@Bucephalus:

And, of course, Oda will completely glaze over the fact that Smoker and Aokiji teamed up with pirates, who should be just as bad as Akainu's crew.

It's things like this that sort of make me wish Oda kept the whole 'Peace Main' and 'Morgania' thing. I understand why it was left out though.

[HaxeyeMihawk]

@brennen.exe:

It's things like this that sort of make me wish Oda kept the whole 'Peace Main' and 'Morgania' thing. I understand why it was left out though.

He may of never reintroduced as an official concept in the opverse but you can still clearly see that it's applicable when comparing a lot of these pirate crews.

[Zik]

I could buy in to Dragon taking over (the world) with a mission statement of freedom or the revolutionaries winning (with pirates helping) and then setting up their own marines in the end where Smoker, Aokiji and the like are in charge.

Since I don't see Oda making Dragon an anarchist but a crusader against corruption.

[HaxeyeMihawk]

@Zik:

I could buy in to Dragon taking over (the world) with a mission statement of freedom or the revolutionaries winning (with pirates helping) and then setting up their own marines in the end where Smoker, Aokiji and the like are in charge.

Since I don't see Oda making Dragon an anarchist but a crusader against corruption.

Idk, I have this weird feeling thay Dragon may wind up having his own darker side possibly even butting heads with Luffy.

[TLC]

@Zkaiser:

He's talking about the great inevitable war that's going to go down near the end in which the Marines who follow Moral Justice side with the pirates against Absolute Justice.

I have always looked forward to this scenario.

Righto

@Zik:

I feel that's a turrible scenario. Moral justice marines teaming with pirates to fight Akainu and the WG?

@Bucephalus:

And, of course, Oda will completely glaze over the fact that Smoker and Aokiji teamed up with pirates, who should be just as bad as Akainu's crew.

This may sound corny but I'm sure Oda realizes this fatal flaw and will do some clever writing and executing to make it reasonable and sensible and not just glaze over it.

[Zik]

@HaxeyeMihawk:

Idk, I have this weird feeling thay Dragon may wind up having his own darker side possibly even butting heads with Luffy.

Maybe Dragon has an Akainuesque idea of winning where he wants to wipe out all marines (including Garp and Coby).

I don't think Dragon's dark side is gonna establish a whole other idea rivaling moral justice and absolute justice. Although he could find some militaristic/philosophical/Sun Ce/Confucius view to attach to Dragon.

[Flux]

Hod on a Sec. The Poll options are a bit silly in retrospect, are they not?

Oda said "Luffy's last adventure as a 17 year old" and it'd be a bit of a waste to do a
"timeskip" and only skip forward 3 or 4 months. It's not really a big, proper, "timeskip" then is it?

That sorta kills the whole point of going to the trouble to create a "Timeskip"
If it was only a "couple of onths" Oda would have spoken about it as he did.

.. Anyway - I've not been on here much - Do we have any indication as to when it will happen?
What are we thinking on the subject of when it's gonna happen? Or are we all still pretty much in the dark?

[Zik]

In the dark as far as what Oda's said. Due to when the interview came out a lot of ppl seem to think it's going to happen soon.