Maybe it would have advanced the same, but it offers more characterization to Luffy, the protagonist, which may lead to other things in the story, no?
No. Luffy cried upon hearing of Sabo's death, but we've gotten about the same effect from Ace's disappearance and death.
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Sabo is the narrator?
Sabo=oda?
some people says it'll be poor writing if Sabo is alive, others says it'll be poor writing if he died, this is ridiculous, as if you people know good writing better than Oda :getlost:.
Meh, dead enough for me. There are far more interesting things to look forward to.
On to the New World!
I have to admit that I love the official celestial dragon hairdo.
I think it would be pretty interesting if this was the "Sabo incident." Both Luffy and Ace think Sabo's dead. It would be nice to see Sabo show up 50-100 chapters after this flashback to Luffy's surprise.
So yeah, I doubt Sabo's dead. Or maybe he is dead and this is finally the moment when Oda can break out of his cookie-cutter formula of "SHOWING A BODY WHEN SOMEONE'S DEAD."
No. Luffy cried upon hearing of Sabo's death, but we've gotten about the same effect from Ace's disappearance and death.
Fair enough. But I think it's also fair to say that Sabo's character has helped further illustrate the corruptness and overall vileness of the elite and the nobles in the One Piece world. I don't think his character was completely useless.
@Del:
Everyone saying that Sabo = Law; or Sabo = Kaidou; Sabo = Pwngoat; etc… Are obviously blind.
Sabo = Narrator! :ninja:
Wait, what?
I know that the Sabo = pwngoat comment is obviously a joke, but who are the fucking morons who think Sabo = Law or Sabo = Kaidou? I pray they're kidding too. Luffy obviously would have recognized Sabo and vice versa, and Kaidou being Sabo… just fuck no.
Sabo was on a sky island during the war…. after coming from the moon with Enel.
1. Flip a coin.
2. Heads = Sabo is dead. Tails = Sabo is alive.
3. Wait until Oda reveals the truth.
4. Feel pleased with yourself if the truth matches the result of the coin toss.
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Sabo was on a sky island during the war…. after coming from the moon with Enel.
My "Sabo is on Fish Island" Theory is better. How bout this, Sabo is the new Jacob on the island of Raftel and Black Beard will be the new Smoke Monster.
Also its nice to know why Garp thought it acceptable to let Ace and Luffy grow up that way.
Sabo's acted as a third wheel to the Ace and Luffy brotherhood and a bit of fuel to Dragon's fire (which had already been lit), but that's it. If he is dead then his character was completely pointless. The story would have advanced all the same without him.
So either Oda's dabbling in some terrible writing or Sabo is really alive.
No his point would be to lead to renewed resolve in the vow of freedom that Ace and Luffy make that will likely come next chapter and the rememberance of this vow would remind Luffy that he lived on and sought to achieve the free life with Ace that Ace, Luffy andespecially Sabo dreamt of and now that Ace is dead it's even more import that he gets over their deaths and carries out this dream for all of them. This freedom vow and Sabo's dream for freedom are what's important here and connects back to this:http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/09/
Fair enough. But I think it's also fair to say that Sabo's character has helped further illustrate the corruptness and overall vileness of the elite and the nobles in the One Piece world. I don't think his character was completely useless.
We got a bit more about the nobles, but the fire could have happened anyways and Dragon would have appeared as well, considering that he was there for Luffy's sake.
And even if Sabo was more important to the characters and story, he just lacks characterization, which is unusual for such an important character (being Luffy's brother from another mother), rendering him more of a device than another person, which is still bad writing.
Sabo is the narrator?
Sabo=oda?
You cross the S in "Sabo", to remove it, then put a mirror in front of the word, and what do you get?
"Sabo" => the "S" is crossed (we could make an X over it, for example) leaving "Abo" => use a mirror: "Abo | odA" => Resulting in "Oda"!! 
If I write something wrong, excuse my english….
For what we have seen this character was created to die, and to show that his death strengthened the bond between Luffy and Ace, forged some of the characteristics of their personalities, and made them stronger.
On a plot developing point of view he being shown alive now would mainly serve as a replacement of the sibling character that was represented by Ace, this is a fact, lets not forget that this is a story about Luffy and his adventures, the other reasons (being a revolutionary, or fighting agains the nobles around world, etc) would just be additives to make him a character complete, having his own objectives and personality.
It's frightening but luckily only you have such severely flawed reasoning. It's funny because you see it that way it's fact lol. Before you started saying this is what Sabo is alive supporters were saying nobody was using this as an argument. There is no replacing Ace.
I don't think Sabo died. Dragon most likely knows that today is the day that the World Nobles come and he will see Sabo and save him.
No his point would be to lead to renewed resolve in the vow of freedom that Ace and Luffy make that will likely come next chapter and the rememberance of this vow would remind Luffy that he lived on and sought to achieve the free life with Ace that Ace, Luffy andespecially Sabo dreamt of and now that Ace is dead it's even more import that he gets over their deaths and carries out this dream for all of them. This freedom vow and Sabo's dream for freedom are what's important here and connects back to this:
Luffy lived life freely anyways, regardless of Sabo, considering how we saw him live with Dadan before Sabo and we got Ace's characterization through his protection of Luffy during the fire and from Dadan's flashback. Sabo may have reinforced those characteristics, but Ace and Luffy could have and would have gone on the same without him.
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That was a very good chapter….Roger info :) and very emotional ending..T_T
However, I am 99% sure Sabo is dead, I mean reading that letter and seeing Ace crying like that..I doubt Oda will bring him back. He could have been captured as a slave because we did see no body but I would be very disappointing if he was. You could relate this to Bon-Clays "death" that as much as I want to see him come back I don't see how Oda can do it so that it will be done right. I mean what do you want to happen, Luffy finds Sabo in a prison or as a Celestial Dragon's slave and frees him...then what? He joins the SHs, he becomes a captain of his own, he joins the Revolutionary's...none of these outcomes seems like they fit so I hope that Sabo stays dead and gone
As for if his death makes this flashback irreverent....no it doesn't. The flashback was necessary to show how Luffy has suffered a huge loss before and probably see the beginnings of Ace's motivation to become a great pirate and have Sabo's memory live through him
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
It's frightening but luckily only you have such severely flawed reasoning. It's funny because you see it that way it's fact lol. Before you started saying this is what Sabo is alive supporters were saying nobody was using this as an argument. There is no replacing Ace.
Oh, for god's sake, I'm not saying that Ace will be replaced like if he will be forgotten, or anything like that. ¬¬
But there was several people saying that Sabo would be alive to help Luffy overcome Ace's loss, since when this whole "Sabo is alive or not" discussion began weeks ago… Some even going as far as to say that Law is Sabo and that's why he rescued Luffy...
If I write something wrong, excuse my english….
Luffy lived life freely anyways, regardless of Sabo, considering how we saw him live with Dadan before Sabo and we got Ace's characterization through his protection of Luffy during the fire and from Dadan's flashback. Sabo may have reinforced those characteristics, but Ace and Luffy could have and would have gone on the same without him.
You underestimate Sabo's death as a motivating factor and you're undermining the entire vow that we saw a glimpse of earlier, you can bet that Luffy and Ace trained/worked extra hard following Sabo's death up until Ace left the island just to become strong enough to reach this collective dream for not only themselves but for Sabo'smemory. Then you don't even realise how this entire freedom theme connects back to Luffy's definition of the Pirate King:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/09/
And you make the silly claim that Sabo lacked characterisation even though we saw his home life, understood his internal character motivation, his personality, etc, so what's characterisation to you? Hell Sabo's so liked because he was given a ton of characterisation in such a short time which makes his death even more poignant.
All this yet you would consider his death which fulfills everything I said above as bad writing, yet the cliché, cheat, asspull scenario required for him to survive is A ok?
Maybe you just became too attached to Sabo?
Sabo is dead, I can't see why Oda would make a loophole. DEAD DEAD DEAD. I was wrong. :P
Oh, for god's sake, I'm not saying that Ace will be replaced like if he will be forgotten, or anything like that. ¬¬
But there was several people saying that Sabo would be alive to help Luffy overcome Ace's loss, since when this whole "Sabo is alive or not" discussion began weeks ago… Some even going as far as to say that Law is Sabo and that's why he rescued Luffy...
I know what you mean by replacement and again nobody but you have been saying that.
So what IF Sabo "helps" Luffy overcome Ace's loss? It's not like Ace has been around throughout the story holding Luffy's nutsack helping him overcome any hard times.
I wouldn't take anybody seriously with one line posts of "Sabo=Law" it's a joke like before Dadan was revealed.
sabo is actually a tricky lil ninja. he survived and already found one piece. sabo for protagonist title!
besides how many times do you expect Oda to play the "He survived the explosion" card? So many people believe that Oda will go the cliché route just because they didn't see a body when there was nothing around to even hint that he could've survived and the citizens cleaned up the wreckage.
Given his track record? 998 times out of 1000.
No body=no proof. Especially with Oda.
You underestimate Sabo's death as a motivating factor and you're undermining the entire vow that we saw a glimpse of earlier, you can bet that Luffy and Ace trained/worked extra hard following Sabo's death up until Ace left the island just to become strong enough to reach this collective dream.
Is that really necessary? They would have trained hard anyways after being humbled by Bluejam and for the sake of what they were still in the process of doing.
Then you don't even realise how this entire freedom theme connects back to Luffy's definition of the Pirate King:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/09/
That's actually more of a conflict. Promising to be free is like burning to stay cool.
And you make the silly claim that Sabo lacked characterisation even though we saw his home life, understood his internal character motivation, his personality, etc, so what's characterisation to you? Hell Sabo's so liked because he was given a ton of characterisation in such a short time which makes his death even more poignant.
We got pieces, but nothing to tie them together. His dream/motivation? Rendered moot by his death. His home life? It hasn't been completely processed by his character. It only seeks to fuel his moot dream and highlight corruption, but it has gone nowhere for his character. We only got glimpses of his personality from third wheeling for Ace and Luffy and the noble stuff really only established that he doesn't judge people by rank. He isn't well characterized. He's just that guy that Luffy and Ace knew that died and hated nobles.
All this yet you would consider his death which fulfills everything I said above as bad writing, yet the cliché, cheat, asspull scenario required for him to survive is A ok?
His death prevents the developments from tying together and leaves a lot of loose ends to his character.
Maybe you just became too attached to Sabo?
I've become attached to Oda and would rather not see him slip into decline.
Why is this motivation point being rehashed? The motivation doesn't go away because Sabo is actually alive nor does any of this character development. If you think the sole reason they're working hard is Sabo's death you're wrong.
@Chimcham:
My "Sabo is on Fish Island" Theory is better. How bout this, Sabo is the new Jacob on the island of Raftel and Black Beard will be the new Smoke Monster.
Also its nice to know why Garp thought it acceptable to let Ace and Luffy grow up that way.
This reminds me, I said it before if Jin can survive a freighter explosion of C4 and get blown all the way back in to the vicinity of the island to go back in time with the other losties instead of dying in the middle of the sea then Sabo can survive a couple blasts to a fishing boat.
I thought that the point of these flashback characters was pretty clear, Robin carries the will of the Oharan archaeologists, Saul and Nico Olivia, Franky carries the will of Tom, Luffy carries the will of Sabo and now Ace, Zoro carries the will of Kuina, etc.
@Wagomu
You just generalised Sabo's character in a way that can be done to any character and I'd pick that entire post apart but I'm on PS3 and don't want to double post.
I thought that the point of these flashback characters was pretty clear, Robin carries the will of the Oharan archaeologists, Saul and Nico Olivia, Franky carries the will of Tom, Luffy carries the will of Sabo and now Ace, Zoro carries the will of Kuina, etc.
Who do Usopp and Sanji cary the wills of again?
3DS FC: 0662-3589-2887
NNID: Gibbs-free
Mostly it boils down to the fact that, if Sabo is dead, its easily the worst death scene Oda has EVER done.
No death speech, (a letter stating his intent to KEEP LIVING and HAVE ADVENTURES is in fact, completely contrary) no dying with a smile and content with what he accomplished in life? Oda doesn't play that way. Particularly when there's NO BODY.
Pirate who bit off his tounge to avoid slavery isn't dead. Pell isn't dead. Not a single person on Skypeia died. The entire Franky Family isn't dead. Ultra racist completely iredeemable non-cover story villain ARLONG isn't even dead.
Hell, the snowboarding rabbits in Drum had sadder more tragic death scenes, and they were mute, and didn't even die.
Oda doesn't kill without good reason, and he doesn't build up characters like this without proper closure.
Sabo's alive. It might take a few years before we get back to him, but he ain't dead. Especially not from that most un-lethal attack of all, explosions.
Bon Kurei ain't dead either, btw.
Who do Usopp and Sanji cary the wills of again?
Zeff's dream was also to find All Blue so you tell me, as for Usopp, I'd have to reread his story, but Brook also is carrying the will of his crew. So 7 out of 8 and you can bet Usopp follows this too.
Zeff's dream was also to find All Blue so you tell me,
Oh yeah, I forgot about the part where Zeff died and his twin with the same name created the Baratie and raised Sanji.
So 7 out of 8 and you can bet Usopp follows this too.
Umm, his hero is his dad, who was last seen in perfect health.
Who do Usopp and Sanji cary the wills of again?
Did you really just ask that?
Usopp carries Banchina's will and Yasopp's blood. Sanji carries on the dream Zeff had to give up. Every Strawhat carries on someone's will.
And Usopp was also very close to his mother… I think everyone's forgotten the flashback Merry (the person, not the boat) gave us at the end of the Syrup Island Arc...
I called it wrong, so long ago. I guess this needs to be changed.
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
My whole thing with this character development point is it isn't necessarily being robbed. You could say part of the reason Ace was determined and set out was due to Sabo's letter and/or death but it isn't the sole reason. I'm not sure how much development Luffy got in regards to this flashback piggybacking off of Ace but the same would apply to him. The 3 of them all had their dreams and were resolved to attain them before anyone died. This notion that one of them died and now they have to work twice as hard, be twice as determined or w/e only works as motivation. If anything I think the focus would be what they gained from the experience through their perspective and not whether or not the death was actually real. It was real enough to change them in some way or add on to something already there and that would be enough. Granted the two are not the same thing but imo whats gained(if you're looking for what's gained out of the experience) is the same.
FTR, if Tom is alive it doesn't rob Robin of what she learned from him.
It's not like it's a situation where it's "oh hey Gutts, guess what? The band of the hawk is really all alive, Griffin never raped Caska and she isn't a retard. You've been killing monsters for years for no reason."
@robbybedfart:
Mostly it boils down to the fact that, if Sabo is dead, its easily the worst death scene Oda has EVER done.
No speech, no dying with a smile and content with what he accomplished in life? Oda doesn't play that way. Particularly when there's NO BODY.
An understatement really. I mean ppl keep citing all the other flashbacks but are ignoring the important details. I don't see how a letter makes up for it.
Guess ppl just want to get over with this flashback.
@Robo:
Oh yeah, I forgot about the part where Zeff died and his twin with the same name created the Baratie and raised Sanji.
Umm, his hero is his dad, who was last seen in perfect health.
In Zeff's case he didn't have to die because we were never led to believe that he had either, not the case with Sabo.
@Robby
You know you're giving me just the cut n paste "No one dies in One Piece argument, right?"
In Zeff's case he didn't have to die because we were never led to believe that he had either, not the case with Sabo.
That has nothing to do with your original argument of carrying out people's wills.
I believe that either two things will happen:
Or
I just don't see why Oda would introduce a plot where a Celestial Dragon goes to the Goa Kingdom, which according to Dadan and the inhabitants of this kingdom is extremely rare. Also, the main reason why I think this flashback is not over or will be revisited is because Oda hid the face of the king of High Town and he did that for a reason, most likely that king is going to be a major player in the future.
If you listen to how Sabo talks, he thinks like a revolutionary. He is literally disgusted by nobility and constantly talks about freedom. Not only does he espouse these thoughts, he has a chance meeting with the leader of the Revolution, Dragon.
Sabo's death was so painfully ambiguous that it was blatantly obvious that he didn't die in the fire.
@Robo:
That has nothing to do with your original argument of carrying out people's wills.
He's carrying out Zeff's dream because Zeff can't, in most flashback characters' cases they have some sort of personal dream that the Strawhat member carries out for the both of them (Kuina, Sabo, etc) or the flashback characters will was focused on the Strawhat, like Saul's will of Robin finding friends and a place to call home. It's not that hard.
@robbybedfart:
Mostly it boils down to the fact that, if Sabo is dead, its easily the worst death scene Oda has EVER done.
No death speech, (a letter stating his intent to KEEP LIVING and HAVE ADVENTURES is in fact, completely contrary) no dying with a smile and content with what he accomplished in life? Oda doesn't play that way. Particularly when there's NO BODY.
Pirate who bit off his tounge to avoid slavery isn't dead. Pell isn't dead. Not a single person on Skypeia died. The entire Franky Family isn't dead. Ultra racist completely iredeemable non-cover story villain ARLONG isn't even dead.
Hell, the snowboarding rabbits in Drum had sadder more tragic death scenes, and they were mute, and didn't even die.
Oda doesn't kill without good reason, and he doesn't build up characters like this without proper closure.
Sabo's alive. It might take a few years before we get back to him, but he ain't dead. Especially not from that most un-lethal attack of all, explosions.
Bon Kurei ain't dead either, btw.
I agree with this completely (I tried making this point in the spoiler thread, though not nearly as well).
@Fire Fist:
Did you really just ask that?
Usopp carries Banchina's will and Yasopp's blood. Sanji carries on the dream Zeff had to give up. Every Strawhat carries on someone's will.
And Usopp was also very close to his mother… I think everyone's forgotten the flashback Merry (the person, not the boat) gave us at the end of the Syrup Island Arc...
Wait… Usopp's mother wanted to be a brave warrior of the sea? And Sanji's dream was to find the All Blue even before he met Zeff.
Besides, regardless of Sabo, Luffy already has the ultimate will anyways with the Will of D (even if he doesn't know it, himself).
Kuina died by falling down some damn stairs, and wasn't it off panel too? Did she smile as she died? Sabo's closure was the letter and the vow that Ace and Luffy will make. Kuina had an even lamer death and her closure was the promise she made with Zoro.
@Wagomu
Luffy's dream was to become PK before he met Sabo and Ace (yet the same stuff applies), again you totally miss the reaffirmation and further motivation aspect.
@Wagomu
Luffy's dream was to become PK before he met Sabo and Ace (yet the same stuff applies), again you totally miss the reaffirmation and further motivation aspect.
So Oda introduced a third brother for Luffy, just as important as Ace was to him, with very little foreshadowing just so that he could motivate traits that Luffy already had?
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NNID: Gibbs-free
Sosososososoosooooooooo the reason Ace had a bitch fit when Akainu talked shit about Whitebeard was justified as a characteristic he inherited from Roger?
And Sabo has to be alive. I don't see the point of this flashback arc if he wasn't alive. It was nice to see Dadan and see the beginnings of Dragaon's revolution, but if Sabo isn't alive, it kinda ruins the arc. I think the main point of this arc was to introduce a character who could get Luffy out of his funk after the death of Ace; only someone from Luffy's past could do it in my opinion. Plus, losing one bro and gaining another is always nice.
thank god sabo's dead.
another annoyance, gone in flames hoo hoo~ ^^
This chapter just proves Ace was a good character.
wow…what an epic chapter! I get now why Luffy is so desperate to be "free" and be able to roam around the sea without restrictions...why the meaning of being the Pirate King is not one with lots of treasure or land, but the freedom to do anything at anytime.
I hope Sabo is alive, he was such a cool character when he was young, can you imagine how awesome he would be grown up? There seem to be so many bad strong guys, it would be nice to see a strong good guy
@Robby
You know you're giving me just the cut n paste "No one dies in One Piece argument, right?"
Yes, and its pertinent again. A mere handful of chapters after Oda finally had the guts to kill someone, which is a damn shame, I'd hoped he'd be able to hold death tension for a while now. But when he's THIS blatantly vague about NOT showing the character actually die… it's just obvious.
I can dig out some of the old lengthier speeches and repaste them if thats what you want.
Kuina died by falling down some damn stairs, and wasn't it off panel too?
Nope. We very clearly saw her body AND the funeral.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/5/16/
Did she smile as she died?
She'd ALREADY accepted the fact that as a girl, she would eventually lose to Zoro due to sheer muscle mass when puberty hit. Her dream was already dead, and she had no ambition or hopes for the future as a result. She had no desire, will, or reason to live.
As is, she died undefeated and the best around, which is about the most she wanted out of life.
Sabo's closure was the letter
The letter that says "I have lots to live for and I want to go out on adventures and I'll see you guys again"?
Kuina had no such hopes or wants, and she was sure she'd be miserable eventually.
Sosososososoosooooooooo the reason Ace had a bitch fit when Akainu talked shit about Whitebeard was justified as a characteristic he inherited from Roger?
And because Luffy was standing behind him, that was the key point.
Its not just about the trashtalking. Its about providing a distraction and getting in the way of an enemy while your loved ones run the other way, to keep the enemy from pursuing them
So Oda introduced a third brother for Luffy, just as important as Ace was to him, with very little foreshadowing just so that he could motivate traits that Luffy already had?
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/549/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/549/19/
Big obvious scene coming up that will go over how Sabo's death motivates Luffy and Ace and in this little snippet you can clearly see how they went from grieving to having renewed resolve. I'll add that this chapter showed how Ace and Luffy felt regret at not trying to steal Sabo back but this snippet shows them vowing to live free of regret (which also connects to the regret Luffy would feel if he couldn't fight to help save Ace here: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/568/14/) then reiterating the freedom thing that I've been saying, we'll know exactly to what extent Sabo's death motivated Ace and Luffy next chapter but you keep saying traits that Luffy had yet you can't ignore how Sabo's death would be important in shaping them.
Again on my PS3 atm so bear with me:
@Robby
Nope. We very clearly saw her body AND the funeral.
I was referring to how you described Sabo's death as too lame for him, yet Kuina gets an offpanel tumble down some stairs, if anything this quick, sudden "unpredictable" (in terms of how it would seem to the characters in the story) just reminds how easily dreams can be dashed especially when Sabo was just becoming "free" (hmm, like Ace), making the scene carry that much more weight because it now has the aspect of "he was so close" topped off by his letter. Seems like a complete scene to me, just need the vowing part.
Sabo survived. We might probably see him again later on. He probably didn't got to help Ace because he was unable to at the moment. Freeing the town which Robin was at. Interesting chapter never the less.
This chapter might also explain why Ace acted the way he did before he died.
This might be something that Luffy must learn from.
like when his crew vanished. He must learn Ace style.
Kuina had no such hopes or wants, and she was sure she'd be miserable eventually.
Hmm?: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/5/15/ as I said the promise scene is her closure and Zoro is carrying out the promise.
@robbybedfart:
Mostly it boils down to the fact that, if Sabo is dead, its easily the worst death scene Oda has EVER done.
Moria (if he really did die, which I doubt)
That is all
Thinking about it Kuina probably committed suicide. I'd fall in to depression if I just gave up on my life goals, aspirations, something I was passionate about, and dedicated to due to a natural physical development that I wasn't willing to surpass or at least attempt to struggle with and persevere. I bet her dad pondered committing hari kari after Zoro left too.
Unless Oda just won't bother having any female skilled with a sword. I guess Tashigi is just wasting her time. Lets ignore ppl like Hancock and Kalifa.
Anyway back on topic, this death for Sabo is too lame for him especially compared to a completely uninteresting pitiful character like Kuina.
