@Jadosra:
In conclusion, what I believe is:
Luffy VS Crocodile at Alabasta = Cockyness from the opponent and minor insanity at the end, also, help from friends.
Luffy VS Crocodile now = Not sure, maybe Luffy is in his league now, I can't talk about that.
Luffy VS Moria at Thriller Bark = Cockyness from the opponent and INSANE INSANITY AT THE END, also, help from one friend.
Luffy VS Moria now = I'm sorry, but Luffy has absolutely no chances of defeating him yet.
Luffy the Pirate King VS Moria and Crocodile = "OH PLEASE, MISTER LUFFY, DON'T HURT ME, I'L BE YOUR SLAVE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE"
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fanboy of Crocodile, nor a fanboy of Moria (altough I find Crocodile badass and Moria pretty cool for his power).
The only thing I am is a logical thinker, and I simply can't see what you guys see in what Oda wrote.
In fact, I think that I'm being way too complex with the arguments:
I could just say the following, and I think that not even OneMoment with his amazing forum abilities, would be able to argue:
-If Crocodile took Luffy as serious as… I don't know... Shanks? He would do what he did to Luffy in the first round and then cut his head off with the Hook (Thus, Luffy wouldn't be saved)
And:
-If Moria took Luffy as seriously as... I don't know... Shanks? As soon as he saw him, he would black box his ass and throw it away to the waterfall.
Because, really, those 2 things would be enough to prove that the Shichibukais are stronger than Luffy.
Yet, being the dumbass I am, I had to complicate everything.
Reading your posts makes me wish for smaller posts. That said, I'll stick to the orginal points and skip all that obnoxiousness you're giving me. First off, barchan is apparently the same technique as Croc drying out an opponent to you, which is a little annoying because I remember someone else posted a panel where Luffy stopping himself midpunch before Croc could grab his hand. Regardless of Croc smiling or whatever you said, that very panel proves that after surviving that attack many times, Luffy is knowledgeable of this technique and is prepared to avoid it. Every time Croc connects before with that move doesn't matter, because that last attempt shows us how effective it is. Just to be clear, your suggestion that this move is a guaranteed win for Luffy, either now or back then, doesn't make sense. It's a powerful move yeah, but there are only so many ways a guy can reach out and grab someone, and Luffy has the ability to get around predictable moves like that. And no, I'm not saying Croc can't connect with this attack, but it's still not a guaranteed move.
But, hopefully we can get past this, cause you're moving onto the "Croc only lost because he was cocky excuse," which is both old and EXTREMELY convenient for Croc's case. Yeah, Croc was overconfident, but not so much that it negates Luffy's abilities.
Onto Moria, you know, I realize that just saying "he's insane" in general is an extremely convenient excuse for why he lost. I mean, what are you basing that on? His laugh? Moria laughed all the time. His blood shot eyes? He's had those before too. His expression? Moria is the master of crazy expressions! It's easy when you look like a mix between Satan and the StayPuff Marshmellow man dressed in gothic clothes. Brain damage from punches to the head? While Moria took on of the worst beatings in One Piece history, no villain before Moria who's been hit on the head has been accused of insanity. Why Moria and no one else? I believe it's because Moria just happens to be the craziest looking villain Oda's made. Sorry, but I'm just going to call bullshit on anyone who uses this excuse. Moria's actions weren't different or out of character with anything he had done up until that point, and your only reasons for his insanity amount to "he didn't fight the way I know he'd win so he's insane." I think you just say Zoro saw the word insane in a scanlation and thought that up excuse to explain away his loss to Luffy.
So, without insanity, the less shadows idea still doesn't make sense. Even if we assume Moria was prideful and wanted to display his power, eating 200 shadows and beating them all down would have satisified his pride just as well, since he'd both be displaying a superior ability to consume shadows and given him more then Nightmare Luffy's power. The only explanation that makes sense is that Moria knew he couldn't achieve the same speed and agility that Nightmare Luffy did, so he went for the strength based 1000 shadows. Clearly, Moria would never gain the speed Nightmare Luffy did so he couldn't use it to run away like a lot of people suggest.
Next, the shadow box idea. It's still ridiculous to assume any attack has 100% accuracy, but I've recently realized a flaw with that seemingly perfect "shadow knife and box attack." When the shadow knife stabs into the shadow box…shouldn't they merge together? Even if one is sharp, both of them are still shadows. I really don't think the physics of Moria's shadows work like that, because we've never seen Moria's attacks behave the way you're describing them. Either way, it's still not as sure a thing as you say it is.
Besides that, Moria is never "out of Luffy's league," as long as he has the ability to damage him. Luffy can cave a giant (Shadow Asguard) Moria's stomach in with just gear 2, so regardless of your beliefs on Nightmare Luffy's interference and Moria's stamina, Luffy can clearly injure Moria to the point of defeat. Now, Moria is clearly still a tough fight for Luffy, but these two are not that far apart. Oda made each shichibukai so far tough to defeat to make then all seem strong, but it's just stupid...I really don't know of any other way to say it...to suggest Oda is writing Croc and Moria as the kind of fighters that defeat themselves so someone who otherwise would be powerless before them (I'm assuming that's your view of Luffy) would lose. It not only suggests that Luffy has made less progress then what was suggested in those arcs, but it also suggests Croc and Moria are incompetent. It doesn't make the shichibukai as a whole look good at all.
Lastly, you mention "seriousness" a few times there. It seems when you say that you're talking about having those guys fight the way you think they should. Why would a rational man cut off someone's head after stabbing them through the chest and tossing them in a sandpit? It only makes sense to you because you have the advantage of hindsight, something that Crocodile doesn't. You need to consider this. It's the same with Moria. How "serious" they were is objective, but just because Moria didn't use every move you believe would guarantee a win doesn't mean he wasn't serious. The viewpoints of someone in the middle of a fight, and someone watching the fight are two different things. It's not as easy to think of the "perfect move" when you're in the middle of dodging or enduring hits. You need to consider that too.
Well, this went post went too long again...but I have the feeling that we're reaching the point where we both realize that the other has good reasons for their arguments and give up on this. Or we call each other ignorant dicks and ignore each other. Either way, it's an conclusion.