World Government Corruption?

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Eh public executions were part of the entertainment scene, people back then loved to see scoundrels get whats coming to them.

So you agree that back then a lot of people loved to see humans dying. I said it again and again but you seem to overlook the fact that the one you loved who were killed won't come back when you just kill someone. What makes you feel better? People are angry when someone they loved is killed. I don't argue against it. So the main source of this anger is the fact that the people they killed will never return.

Does this pain end when you kill the murderer? Or do these people only fulfil the lust to kill someone in the desperate attempt to get rid of the pain. But i think it doesn't end with the death of the murderer. I never studied psychology or read anything related to that issue. This is what i think. I would like to discuss this with you. Let's face the main issue of why i called Hannyabal an evil person.

My accusation is hannyabal is evil cause he is responsible for the death of a lot of persons. And because i say there is no way this death will help the people i say "the killing in ID is meaningless". And i go so far and say Hannyabal Magellan etc… don't feel guilty by doing it. They really enjoy doing it otherwise they will quit their job or just try to change the system (or quit if they can't do it). And i say "i kill and torture these murderers cause they deserved it" is an excuse. Who are they to mess with lives? Cause by torturing and killing humans they are not better than the mass murderers like crocodile.

here a beautiful quote i found in this forum:

We're not God. Not only are our powers limited, we sometimes are driven to become the devil himself- Wolfwood

;)

And well it may endanger them, but whats better. To live in constant fear of a growing pirate threat or take a god given opportunity to squash it once and for all?

Well it's difficult to discuss it since we don't know if WB kills random villagers just for fun. If he doesn't do it (which is what i believe) then he is just pursued by the marines because he is a pirate? And a powerful one? And the marines are afraid of him because they are so paranoid they think he is a threat to the WG? So by beginning this war they put the lives of so many innocent guys in the world in danger just because they are paranoid? No to me it doesn't make sense at all.

[phyrros]

@MagneticMonkey:

Why is being a pirate a crime? I you just have a ship and a pirate flag claim to be a pirate and they will imprison you. Is that normal? I don't think so. You are guilty when you go against laws every citizen has voted. And if it has been proved that you are guilty there is no need to torture you.

I just picked up this part to point out two examples of the real world.
The first one would be the pirate scene just offcoast (North.-)East Africa: For 15 years no one cared shit (except the insurance companies) 'bout 5-10 ransacked/kidnapped ships a year. They just paid 10 to 100 thousand dollars and where off safe. Situation changed after the rise of fees. Thing is: There is really no "national" law outside the 12/24 miles zone.
Second point would be the existence of something like Guantanamo Bay where civilians (NOT POW cause soldiers would have different rights) would have been kept whithout accusation & tortured for a time up to iirc 6 yrs) for being terrorists.

In OP pirates are the modern worlds "islamic terrorists". You don't actually have to be one to be chared of being one. And, in practice, you lose most of you human rights.

fucked up? yeah, but still only a few stand up against it.

[Herackles]

evildoers or misunderstood heroes? It's waaaay too complicated of a matter to choose one of those. The torture methods are ridiculous but so is the strength of the prisoners. There's really no saying if it's a just penal system.

pros: as Hannyabal says, the prison would keep a lot of people safe to sleep at night
cons: sadists like Shiryuu and Sadi-chan and the demon guards running the place. Magellan is questionable too with his clear hatred of the prisoners.

[MagneticMonkey]

@Herackles:

evildoers or misunderstood heroes? It's waaaay too complicated of a matter to choose one of those. The torture methods are ridiculous but so is the strength of the prisoners. There's really no saying if it's a just penal system.

So you are basically saying oda made the guys so strong that he has now serious problems in finding a real world material that can be used to build the cells that will be able to withstand the prisoners strength? Therefore he thought "hey let them starve and torture them that will reduce their power"?
It's a fictional world so he can basically just say ID use a special metal blah which is so resistent they can't break
On the other hand did we see Jimbei eat something after being freed? No and he showed no signs of fatigue even by fighting the strongest guards in the prison. So torture is still meaningless.

pros: as Hannyabal says, the prison would keep a lot of people safe to sleep at night.

So random villagers in the OP world are all sadist who sleep well at night knowing someone is busy fulfiling their torture lust?
A prison is fine cause what some of the prisoners in ID did is really wrong. Torture/killing on the other hand is just not necessary. Do the "normal" people out there in the OP world know what cruelty happens in ID? I don't think they would sleep well if they actually know it. And if they know it they are sadists which is hard to believe. So what hannyabal said was just an excuse for how evil he is/became…

[Ninjabrownie]

@Herackles:

cons: sadists like Shiryuu and Sadi-chan and the demon guards running the place. Magellan is questionable too with his clear hatred of the prisoners.

Why is this a con? They're just making use of their special 'talents'. Imagine the sadists were put in charge of guarding a small coastal village and that mouse guy would run part of the prison, making shady deals with the strongest prisoners.
They've got the right guys for the job, that's for sure. Its the job you have to question - and, of course, that completely useless, utterly incompetent, weird as hell 3-person judge.

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

So you agree that back then a lot of people loved to see humans dying. I said it again and again but you seem to overlook the fact that the one you loved who were killed won't come back when you just kill someone. What makes you feel better? People are angry when someone they loved is killed. I don't argue against it. So the main source of this anger is the fact that the people they killed will never return.

Oh definitly, it was a public spectacle. And i dont think the people was all that offended by it since they were a whole lot more fatalistic than now days. And biblical justice was what people based their morals on back then.

My accusation is hannyabal is evil cause he is responsible for the death of a lot of persons. And because i say there is no way this death will help the people i say "the killing in ID is meaningless". And i go so far and say Hannyabal Magellan etc… don't feel guilty by doing it. They really enjoy doing it otherwise they will quit their job or just try to change the system (or quit if they can't do it). And i say "i kill and torture these murderers cause they deserved it" is an excuse. Who are they to mess with lives? Cause by torturing and killing humans they are not better than the mass murderers like crocodile.

See that's where we differ, you think that no matter what heinious thing a person has done he is still worth just as much as any other fella. Which i dont. So for me its not a huge suprise that they dont feel guilty for treating these monsters as they do, and heck by their moral compass its not only perfectly fine but its practicaly a neccesity for keeping these prisoners down. And they dont quit because they have pride in their work and honor their duty to be that bloody wall seperating the normal innocent people and the scum of the earth.

Well it's difficult to discuss it since we don't know if WB kills random villagers just for fun. If he doesn't do it (which is what i believe) then he is just pursued by the marines because he is a pirate? And a powerful one? And the marines are afraid of him because they are so paranoid they think he is a threat to the WG? So by beginning this war they put the lives of so many innocent guys in the world in danger just because they are paranoid? No to me it doesn't make sense at all.

Nah he probably doesnt kill people as long as they hand over all the supplies and booze he wants. This glorifying of pirates is way of, i think Shanks set the tone for what a pirate is at the begining where he proclaims that theyre not saints theyre pirates and you shouldnt be shocked when theyre blowing peoples brains out. It is what they do.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Oh definitly, it was a public spectacle. And i dont think the people was all that offended by it since they were a whole lot more fatalistic than now days. And biblical justice was what people based their morals on back then.

It can't be wronged since god is backing me up (or at least i want to believe it since i actually feel guilty). It reminds me somehow of Hannyabal…

See that's where we differ, you think that no matter what heinious thing a person has done he is still worth just as much as any other fella. Which i dont. So for me its not a huge suprise that they dont feel guilty for treating these monsters as they do, and heck by their moral compass its not only perfectly fine but its practicaly a neccesity for keeping these prisoners down. And they dont quit because they have pride in their work and honor their duty to be that bloody wall seperating the normal innocent people and the scum of the earth.

I don't question their pride i know they're guarding the most dangerous prisoners in the world. And ID is perfect for that. I also have nothing against cells. But i directly have something against torture and killing. The ID staff already separates those dangerous pirates from the normal innocent guys by guarding. But that wasn't enough… They became mass murderers just because noone says something against it and they have a massive back up from a corrupt organization.

And you still avoided the question "does it really makes you feel better to know that the murderer of your friends is being tortured and will be killed?". We won't go anywhere if we don't discuss this point.

Nah he probably doesnt kill people as long as they hand over all the supplies and booze he wants.

Doesn't make sense.

This glorifying of pirates is way of, i think Shanks set the tone for what a pirate is at the begining where he proclaims that theyre not saints theyre pirates and you shouldnt be shocked when theyre blowing peoples brains out. It is what they do.

And yet there is still a difference between killing a bandit who threatened to kill a kid and torturing/Killing handcuffed persons. Of course pirates aren't saints but not all of them are the worst scum on earth.

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

It can't be wronged since god is backing me up (or at least i want to believe it since i actually feel guilty). It reminds me somehow of Hannyabal…

So you have to feel guilty for killing a person? You couldnt just genuinly belive that this person deserves to die.

I don't question their pride i know they're guarding the most dangerous prisoners in the world. And ID is perfect for that. I also have nothing against cells. But i directly have something against torture and killing. The ID staff already separates those dangerous pirates from the normal innocent guys by guarding. But that wasn't enough… They became mass murderers just because noone says something against it and they have a massive back up from a corrupt orrganisation.

So you can see no crime whatsoever that makes killing justified? I can think of a handful right now.

Doesn't make sense.

What doesnt make sense? That the most notorious pirate alive robs people to feed his gigantic fleet of 1600 people? How else do you think he finances it. Hand it over or i stab your throat thats the pirate way of doing grocery shopping. But since most people crap their pants over Whitebeard he probably doesnt kill that many people.

And yet there is still a difference between killing a bandit who threatened to kill a kid and torturing/Killing handcuffed persons. Of course pirates aren't saints but not all of them are the worst scum on earth.

Is there? Killing him at that very moment or killing him later to punish him for that very same act. What makes one better than the other.

EDIT: didnt i already answer that question with "and whats to gain would be justice, closure for the survivors, giving him a taste of the suffering he's caused others and a guarante that he never kills again." ? But to specify yes i would feel better if i know for instance Dahmer or any other lunatic was getting their ass handed to them in jail.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

So you have to feel guilty for killing a person? You couldnt just genuinly belive that this person deserves to die.

And even if you thought he deserved to die it won't bring back your friends. It's too easy to just say "he deserved it so let us kill him. Now what? I still have the same nightmares. I still feel the pain…" Why did i killed him? What did it give me?

So you can see no crime whatsoever that makes killing justified? I can think of a handful right now.

Who are you to decide who needs to die or not?

What doesnt make sense? That the most notorious pirate alive robs people to feed his gigantic fleet of 1600 people? How else do you think he finances it. Hand it over or i stab your throat thats the pirate way of doing grocery shopping. But since most people crap their pants over Whitebeard he probably doesnt kill that many people.

So there is no way there are some specific islands in the new world where they can get water and food. Something like little garden. Are you an absolute justice fan?

Is there? Killing him at that very moment or killing him later to punish him for that very same act. What makes one better than the other.

He wanted to kill Shanks. Lucky roux defended his captain against death. And yet it was evil to shoot him dead. But it is even worse to kill someone who is in a cell siting there without having anything to protect himself. It's a coward move.

EDIT: didnt i already answer that question with "and whats to gain would be justice, closure for the survivors, giving him a taste of the suffering he's caused others and a guarante that he never kills again." ? But to specify yes i would feel better if i know for instance Dahmer or any other lunatic was getting their ass handed to them in jail.

So you admit you are a sadist?

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

And even if you thought he deserved to die it won't bring back your friends. It's too easy to just say "he deserved it so let us kill him. Now what? I still have the same nightmares. I still feel the pain…" Why did i killed him? What did it give me?

On the flipside, whats so grand about letting a man like that live out his life in comfort. What does that give to his grieving family, they get to watch him lay about watching tv for 25 years while theyre scared for life.

Who are you to decide who needs to die or not?

A regular citizen with no major murders or crimes on my consience? But then again i alone dont decided that, a group of his peers ransack his deeds and his character and if they see his actions are so atrocious that theyre beyond forgivness or/and that he shows no remorse for it then i say hang him. But to clarify i dont advocate killing people for every small thing, but once a certain line has been crossed i say its a valid punishment, like that guy who raped and killed two 7 year old girls and laughed about it in court. I want him dead, in the most painful way.

So there is no way there are some specific islands in the new world where they can get water and food. Something like little garden. Are you an absolute justice fan?

Might be but i doubt it, and what about rum? Guns and ammo? Clothes? If they dont rob the actualy shop keeper then they rob someone else for gold to pay with. You cant actualy think that temp pirate king never robs anyone.

He wanted to kill Shanks. Lucky roux defended his captain against death. And yet it was evil to shoot him dead. But it is even worse to kill someone who is in a cell siting there without having anything to protect himself. It's a coward move.

Somehow i think its more fair to kill a man after he's been tried for his crimes and sentenced to death. But i wouldnt call either of those actions evil per se. Both have a valid reason.

So you admit you are a sadist?

I wouldnt say that i am, i get no thrill from torturing people. But what i would like is to know that a man like that gets a fitting punishment.

But if that in your eyes makes me a sick freak then so be it.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

On the flipside, whats so grand about letting a man like that live out his life in comfort. What does that give to his grieving family, they get to watch him lay about watching tv for 25 years while theyre scared for life.

This man the family is so scared about is in a cell. He won't get out if the guards do their job. Now you may argument that noone is perfect and the terrible man can still escape and terrorize the poor family again. By argumenting like that you would finaly come to the conclusion : "after be declared guilty we might directly shoot this guy dead so that we don't need a cell for him and guards who are susceptible to drop their vigilance." Which is also horrible to me.

Might be but i doubt it, and what about rum? Guns and ammo? Clothes? If they dont rob the actualy shop keeper then they rob someone else for gold to pay with. You cant actualy think that temp pirate king never robs anyone.

People might actually be so glad that WB protects their island so that they give him food & stuff for free. By doing it the protected people show WB their gratitude. And on the other hand there are still other pirates crews who gets defeated. And yes i agree that they rob other pirates. Which means that they somehow also rob innocent people cause if the defeat a pirate crew who robbed poor people and get the treasure that makes them indirectly robbing these poor people. Hmm… I was more thinking of direct robbing when i replied to that subject.

A regular citizen with no major murders or crimes on my consience? But then again i alone dont decided that, a group of his peers ransack his deeds and his character and if they see his actions are so atrocious that theyre beyond forgivness or/and that he shows no remorse for it then i say hang him. But to clarify i dont advocate killing people for every small thing, but once a certain line has been crossed i say its a valid punishment, like that guy who raped and killed two 7 year old girls and laughed about it in court. I want him dead, in the most painful way.

I wouldnt say that i am, i get no thrill from torturing people. But what i would like is to know that a man like that gets a fitting punishment.
But if that in your eyes makes me a sick freak then so be it.

And level 1 prisoners are really not crocs calibre but still get tortured.
And now my other argument:
You think that croc deserves to be killed because he has done so much harm to the world. Yes he has. And now what means this:

Domino: We're short on time, so let's be off!
I must ask that you submit to a body check over there, Vice Admiral.
Prisoners are normally sent through this gate…
...where they are stripped of their clothing and dropped into iron pots of boiling water, known as the "Lukewarm Bath of Hell."
It works to disinfect prisoners,
and gives them a little baptism before the rest of their life in prison.
Even among prisoners, some take it better than others...
Of recent entries, Flame Fist Ace,
Jinbei of the Seven Armed Seas,
and Crocodile, formerly of the same...
...received their baptism without batting an eye.

Crocodile one sick bastard didn't react to boiling water. The people of crocs calibre don't feel the torture. But yet they do it. But it means nothing to them. So why continue? Just for the sake of it? It's meaningless. Why don't they just kill him? If they don't kill him maybe they're just enjoying torturing him?

[SunWuKong]

@MagneticMonkey:

So random villagers in the OP world are all sadist who sleep well at night knowing someone is busy fulfiling their torture lust?
A prison is fine cause what some of the prisoners in ID did is really wrong. Torture/killing on the other hand is just not necessary. Do the "normal" people out there in the OP world know what cruelty happens in ID? I don't think they would sleep well if they actually know it. And if they know it they are sadists which is hard to believe. So what hannyabal said was just an excuse for how evil he is/became…

wow…that impressed me...either your your a very active humanist or (what i would think) your a fucking hypocrite...

[Herackles]

@Ninjabrownie:

Why is this a con? They're just making use of their special 'talents'. Imagine the sadists were put in charge of guarding a small coastal village and that mouse guy would run part of the prison, making shady deals with the strongest prisoners.
They've got the right guys for the job, that's for sure. Its the job you have to question - and, of course, that completely useless, utterly incompetent, weird as hell 3-person judge.

theres a lot wrong with having torture addicts run a prison. Ask Jinbei or Ace.

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

This man the family is so scared about is in a cell. He won't get out if the guards do their job. Now you may argument that noone is perfect and the terrible man can still escape and terrorize the poor family again. By argumenting like that you would finaly come to the conclusion : "after be declared guilty we might directly shoot this guy dead so that we don't need a cell for him and guards who are susceptible to drop their vigilance." Which is also horrible to me.

Wasnt even thinking about him escaping, more like why does this piece of shit deserve three meals a day, a warm bed and entertainment for his crimes when there are honest people who are lacking these. Starvation hell might be just suitable for that kind of person.

People might actually be so glad that WB protects their island so that they give him food & stuff for free. By doing it the protected people show WB their gratitude. And on the other hand there are still other pirates crews who gets defeated. And yes i agree that they rob other pirates. Which means that they somehow also rob innocent people cause if the defeat a pirate crew who robbed poor people and get the treasure that makes them indirectly robbing these poor people. Hmm… I was more thinking of direct robbing when i replied to that subject.

So they go from island to island collecting protection money/supplies ala the maffia? Yeah i could see that as a possibility.

Or they just board ships in their "territory" and just take whatever they have and sink them. It aint cheap running an armada so you'll just have to take what you can get.

And level 1 prisoners are really not crocs calibre but still get tortured.
And now my other argument:
You think that croc deserves to be killed because he has done so much harm to the world. Yes he has. And now what means this:

And they dont get the same punishment as Croc either, so it works out pretty fairly.

Crocodile one sick bastard didn't react to boiling water. The people of crocs calibre don't feel the torture. But yet they do it. But it means nothing to them. So why continue? Just for the sake of it? It's meaningless. Why don't they just kill him? If they don't kill him maybe they're just enjoying torturing him?

Why should they let him of the hook just cause he doesnt scream in pain at being boiled. They meet out the punishment that has been decided for him no more no less.

[Ninjabrownie]

@Herackles:

theres a lot wrong with having torture addicts run a prison. Ask Jinbei or Ace.

I think its the best choice for Impel Down. Guilt, punishment, hurt, pain, heal and morals are different in One Piece. Its not just any prison, they have to numb legions of pirates that are dangerous as hell into submission. And the WG has a share of sadists within their ranks, which makes sense. So they put them in charge of ID. Great choice if you ask me.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Wasnt even thinking about him escaping, more like why does this piece of shit deserve three meals a day, a warm bed and entertainment for his crimes when there are honest people who are lacking these.

So you agree that killing this person is meaningless cause you have faith in him not being able to escape from his cell so there is no need to shoot him dead.

your own words: "What does that give to his grieving family, they get to watch him lay about watching tv for 25 years while theyre scared for life."

Starvation hell might be just suitable for that kind of person.

And now here you say that with him starving the poor family won't be scared anymore?

So you agreed the family is a bunch of sadists?

And they dont get the same punishment as Croc either, so it works out pretty fairly.

[hide]

Point 1 the ID staff use crazy guards who have no problems in killing prisoners that are not in their cells while having enough power to catch the prisoner and bring him back to the cell.

They are forced to walk on needles. But nooooooo the guards are only doing their job and the WG is responsible. And may i notice that this is only level 1. We're prisoners who are not like croc are being held. I don't know how sick ID has to be to think about crazy stuff like that and actually force people suffering terrible pain. And it doesn't even remotely looks like the guards have some remorse. ID is evil. By looking at this prison i can't say the staff values life.
[/hide]

Why should they let him of the hook just cause he doesnt scream in pain at being boiled. They meet out the punishment that has been decided for him no more no less.

My entire argumentation shows how useless killing/torture is but IDs staff still do it. So my deduction is that they love doing it. Because what's the point in doing something that is meaningless? Just doing your job? I argumented that the one who don't like stuff like that are perfectly able to quit their job. I don't think they are forced to do it.

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

So you agree that killing this person is meaningless cause you have faith in him not being able to escape from his cell so there is no need to shoot him dead.

Cant just generalize and say that death penetly is unneccesary. It depends on if he deserves to live, or if he warrants execution.

Most of the time id say no, but when were talking Impel down level thats a whole nother story.

And now here you say that with him starving the poor family won't be scared anymore?

So you agreed the family is a bunch of sadists?

I didnt mean it as in theyre afraid of him getting out, i meant it in the sense that they have emotional scars that will last for a lifetime i.e. scared for life. But that might not be how you spell it. And i suppose knowing that he didnt just get a cozy cell to read books in but rather an actual punishment would make em feel that justice has been served.

And i cant say i agree with the notion that anyone who endorses harsh punishment for gruesome crimes is a sadist.

Point 1 the ID staff use crazy guards who have no problems in killing prisoners that are not in their cells while having enough power to catch the prisoner and bring him back to the cell.

We still do that, i cant think of anyone who would be against shooting prisoners who try to escape.

They are forced to walk on needles. But nooooooo the guards are only doing their job and the WG is responsible. And may i notice that this is only level 1. We're prisoners who are not like croc are being held. I don't know how sick ID has to be to think about crazy stuff like that and actually force people suffering terrible pain. And it doesn't even remotely looks like the guards have some remorse. ID is evil. By looking at this prison i can't say the staff values life.

It does value life, the lives of civilians. And you assume that deep down they are remorsefull and hate what theyre doing. And no before you say it, beliving that there is a point to what theyre doing doesnt make them evil.

My entire argumentation shows how useless killing/torture is but IDs staff still do it. So my deduction is that they love doing it. Because what's the point in doing something that is meaningless? Just doing your job? I argumented that the one who don't like stuff like that are perfectly able to quit their job. I don't think they are forced to do it.

Almost every killing has been after a rule violation, you try to escape you forfeit your life. So i cant say that's pointless, and as for the torture, it does serve its purpose. Apart from it may being the punishment they deserve it also makes those super villains weak and manegable.

[Kedavra]

Is there a tl;dr version of the discussion so far?

[Vanessa]

@MagneticMonkey:

Well buggy knows WB very well. I'm still not really sure what lesson someone can teach you by killing you.

Doesn't change a thing I stated. And the lesson taught is: don't fuck with the Whitebeard Pirates.

Which is in fact what people go out of their way to do out fear of being killed by a vengeful pirate from that very crew.

But if i say i can blame garp too for doing nothing to change something would it makes him part of the absolute justcie followers?
But now that we are talking about garps case i might elaborate a bit more about my opinion. From what we saw he doesn't believe in absolute justice.

On the other hand he is also crazy. Like he would have killed luffy just like that. I mean he may have faith that the strawhats would have escaped his giant ball well we really don't know. Regarding the bad stuff happening in the marines the WG and ID i think that garp is trully doing great things for the marine. By training good guys like Coby (and even Helmeppo who changed and proved he actually has the potential to become a good marine), by catching bad pirates. And on the other hand he didn't attacked rayleigh just because he is a pirate etc etc… Now he knows about the celestial dragons and the slavery. But what is his job in the marines? Imo it's just catching pirates.

What political power does he have to stop the celestial dragons? The other problem is he may really be too busy to deal with slavery. We don't know what he would have done if he was at shabaody in the auction house... Knowing rayleigh was spotted and saying "we can't just attack 2 legendary pirates" he indirectly helped a lot of pirates. He also indirectly helped luffy. Why do i think Hannyabal is worse than garp? Because Hannyabals directly commands guards to torture/kill weak prisoners.

There is a difference between someone who is trying to arrest pirates because piracy is forbidden and someone whose job isn't just to guard prisoners but to also break their will to live. It's a completely different thing. Does garp has the power to stop what's happening in ID? ID may be free to do what they want woth prisoners. ID may also be controlled by guys like the gorousei or some political power garp can't go against.

BUT! If garp has the power and the influence to change something like stop the meaningless killing of people (ohara) or stuff like that and does nothing then he should be blamed. But i don't really know how much he can do and what his job exactly is. Do we have a list of what job the different ranks in the marines do? Might be imo an excellent SBS question.

If hannyabal value life he would have quit his job. They know what they do in ID but excuse it because the WG is behinds them.

So you admit you're being hypocritical cause that's what this is telling me.

[wolfwood]

@Kedavra:

Is there a tl;dr version of the discussion so far?

Essentialy its does working in impel down = being evil?

And after that its just branched out into pro/con death penelty and alot of other intresting stuff.

@phyrros:

In OP pirates are the modern worlds "islamic terrorists". You don't actually have to be one to be chared of being one. And, in practice, you lose most of you human rights.

Weve never seen a single non-pirate being charged with piracy. So i dont know how that comparison would work.

[fedcom]

@Inazuma:

I'd just like to point out a little something: Shiryuu was imprisoned because he'd slaughter prisoners for no reason and just for fun right? So they cared about the prisoners at least a little in that they wouldn't let an official going around killing them just for the heck of it. There's a glimpse of fairness, I think.
By imprisoning Shiryuu they lost one of their main forces, they grew weaker but they still applied justice to him and even when they needed him to stop the riots in ID later, Magellan didn't assure him that they'd lift his death sentence.

Magellan killed some random guy he didn't like in level 6

About Impel Down; are there different sentences or do all the prisoners stay there for life?

[MagneticMonkey]

@Vanessa:

Which is in fact what people go out of their way to do out fear of being killed by a vengeful pirate from that very crew.

There might be things a vengeful WB might do to them which is worse than death but that's just a speculation.

So you admit you're being hypocritical cause that's what this is telling me.

In short. Garp has the potential to be blamed. But it isn't as obvious as someone who is directly in charge of a torture prison. How does it makes me hypocrite. Compare kizaru and Garp for example. We have seen kizaru trying to kill pirates while they're already down. By my logic he is evil. Have we seen Garp doing it? When garp threw that giant ball on the Strawhats they weren't down like zoro (you know when kizarz tried to kill him). They could have jumped in the water in the hope that the water will somehow brake the Ball. The chances are very low but it isn't as obvious as kizaru knowing the "enemy" doesn't have the power to evade knowing his logia fruit gives him the power to arrest them without killing them but still trying to give them the final blow.

I will quote myself here:

BUT! If garp has the power and the influence to change something like stop the meaningless killing of people (ohara) or stuff like that and does nothing then he should be blamed. But i don't really know how much he can do and what his job exactly is. Do we have a list of what job the different ranks in the marines do? Might be imo an excellent SBS question.

My argument is that garps job maybe really to just arrest pirates which doesn't make him evil by my logic. If his rank in the marines gives him the power to change the horrible things happening in the world and he doesn't do it then he accepts that he arrests pirates and torture them indirectly by sending the to ID which makes him evil. I never said Garp isn't evil. And i don't know how much influence garp has.
Hannyabal is directly responsible for the torture so is Magellan etc… They can quit their job if they value life.
How does it makes me a hypocrite?

I really hope the war will actually makes the WG weak and that ID in it's actual form cease to exist.

[Ninjabrownie]

One Piece became more sinister with ID. Not because of the torture etc. Its morally ambiguous.

Most of the prisoners deserve what they're getting. Imagine Eustass Kid was sent there. He'd deserve every bit of humiliation and pain he gets. Yet, others don't, or not really. I know this is obvious but the ambiguity of what is right and wrong is what counts here, there is no real justice, its relative for each case. In a sense, Impel Down is a necessary evil.

Luffy's actions compound the ambiguity. He gets away with a lot because he's saving his brother. Fine. But taking in Crocodile? That's pushing it. Regardless of the justifications, that's morally wrong. Not like Luffy. He's changing. He's 'growing up' in the sense that he accepts you have to make compromises and even leave behind casualties for your sake. Its selfish, not like him. Impel Down brings many changes to the board and I'm interested to see where Oda is taking Luffy's character development.

I think he's less happy-go-lucky and especially less 'Kantian', I mean less motivated by good intentions/maxims without leaving room for compromise. He compromises big time, all for the sake of his brother. Up until Impel Down is was relatively easy to distinguish right from wrong, and Luffy's actions were obviously what was right. Now he's doing wrong things to achieve what is right.

! Of course this is not completely new, destroying Enies Lobby for instance with the help of the Franky Family is a sort of light version of the scenario at ID.

[jack1000]

I remember reading most of this here:

http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=22993

[Ninjabrownie]

Yeah I copied my post and added a bit. This thread is about Luffy's character development, not the guards at Impel Down. If that's all covered Wolfwood's thread as well this is redundant, but I'm glad to see Oda is doing a bit for his main character other than immersing him in new adventures, enriching his life with new friends and giving him new attacks.

[MagneticMonkey]

Without the pressure of Ivan jimbei or bon chan luffy wouldn't have freed croc wouldn't have let ivan and inazuma behind and would have directly fought Magellan and Blackbeard.
I believe that he won't accept that so many guys die just to let him save Ace, I mean it was his idea to break in ID.

[ThunderEarthFire]

Villain - a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.

So to answer the question who is a villain in One Piece's World Government:

Elder five stars - Yes
World Nobles - Yes
Average Marine - No
Smoker - No
Tashigi - No
Aokiji - No
Kizaru - No
Akainu - Yes
Magellan - Yes
Sadi-chan - Yes
Shiryu - Yes
Average ID guard - Yes
Hannayabal - Yes
Saldeath - Yes
Spandam - Yes
Spandain - Yes
CP9 - Yes
T-bone - No
Garp - No
Coby - No
Helmeppo - No
Moria - Yes
Croc - Yes
Hancock - Yes
Jinbei - No
Donflamingo - Yes
Mihawk - Yes
Kuma - ?
Blackbeard - Yes

and that's about it or at least everyone I can think of, I gave Kuma a question mark cause I don't think this can be answered yet for him.

[MagneticMonkey]

[hide][/hide]
That makes Kiazru evil since he couldn't just arrest zoro. He had to kill him!

[Zkaiser]

Luffy has made no character development in Impel Down. He still rushes head on like a faggot even though people tell him not to. Even when Ivan was taken out he was about to run and fight Magellan. Luffy is a static dumbass. And I like him that way.

[White Bread]

Well we all know noone will die in this arc, maybe fooder pirates but thats it. Tell me once when One Piece made some important character die thats not from a flashback? Even Pell survived the blast from the bomb, surely can Ivan and Inazuma somehow get out of there alive.

[.access timeco.]

I agree with Magnetic. Luffy is under high pressure in there, he had to hurry and is not actually thinking about he is doing. People just suy "do this" and he agrees… if someone in there tells him to jump in the fire he will probably do it because he is simply not thinking (actually, it's like Luffy isn't even in this arc, just his body running from one side to the other).

But now I wonder what will happen when all of this is over and he has the time to think things over and starts to remember what happened back in ID. When he remembers Hannyabal's speech and realize that he actually released (assuming a lot of prisoners will leave ID) dangerous guys into the world and not just the funny and good people like Mr.2.
Well, maybe he is not the one to be blamed since he is actually not releasing those guys (it's Buggy, Mr.3 and the Newkamas doing it). But it doesn't matter, because the most important one (at least to him) was his responsibility: Crocodile. Assuming he will meet again with Vivi, how will he be able to look into her eyes knowing he let Crocodile get free in order to acheive his own goals? He is not the kind of guy who will simply think "I had to do it to save Ace. Fuck off if you don't like it".
I don't think Luffy is developing in this way because I don't think he will keep doing this kind of things, but this will probably give him a lot of reasons to hate himself and feel guilty... yeah, maybe we are going to see a not-so-happy Luffy in the near future (unless Oda ignores it).

[MagneticMonkey]

@Zkaiser:

Luffy has made no character development in Impel Down. He still rushes head on like a faggot even though people tell him not to. Even when Ivan was taken out he was about to run and fight Magellan. Luffy is a static dumbass. And I like him that way.

Seriously i have to say… : PREACH.
:=)

[TLC]

@Zkaiser:

Luffy has made no character development in Impel Down. He still rushes head on like a faggot even though people tell him not to. Even when Ivan was taken out he was about to run and fight Magellan. Luffy is a static dumbass. And I like him that way.

Agree with this. Don't fix what isn't broken. Subtle character changes are fine here and there (ex Usopp becoming braver, Robin becoming more open to the crew) but drastic changes like that are undesirable.

[Crossword]

Well, it would be kind of nice if Luffy did manage to take something away from this whole escapade. I originally thought that the whole fiasco on Sabaody would at least give him some small thoughts about the consequences of his actions. Be nice if he does get some lesson in responsibility as a captain after this.

I'm kind of hoping that due to his current actions, something goes wrong. There's the obvious possibility of Impel Down being destroyed, him not being able to save Ace, or he does save Ace but at the same time manages to ensure Whitebeard's death. Something to broaden his worldview a bit. Not asking for his IQ to suddenly jump through the roof, or him to go all depressed and emo on us, or radically change his personality, just something to give him a reason to reflect on some of his recent actions and better himself as an individual.

[sufjan]

i agree with most that luffy is and should remain a static character though the only character development that was definitely noticeable was luffy's decision to go save ace instead of reuniting with his crew.

[MagneticMonkey]

@Crossword:

Not asking for his IQ to suddenly jump through the roof, or him to go all depressed and emo on us, just something to give him a reason to reflect on some of his recent actions and better himself as an individual.

Imagine Mr.2 dies protecting luffy from a great danger he would have recklessly run into… Or Hanmock!

[Airflow]

Luffy hasn't had any character development in over 500 chapters. What makes you think he's going to start now?

[Ninjabrownie]

@MagneticMonkey:

Without the pressure of Ivan jimbei or bon chan luffy wouldn't have freed croc wouldn't have let ivan and inazuma behind and would have directly fought Magellan and Blackbeard.
I believe that he won't accept that so many guys die just to let him save Ace, I mean it was his idea to break in ID.

@.access:

I agree with Magnetic. Luffy is under high pressure in there, he had to hurry and is not actually thinking about he is doing. People just suy "do this" and he agrees… if someone in there tells him to jump in the fire he will probably do it because he is simply not thinking (actually, it's like Luffy isn't even in this arc, just his body running from one side to the other).

But now I wonder what will happen when all of this is over and he has the time to think things over and starts to remember what happened back in ID. When he remembers Hannyabal's speech and realize that he actually released (assuming a lot of prisoners will leave ID) dangerous guys into the world and not just the funny and good people like Mr.2.
Well, maybe he is not the one to be blamed since he is actually not releasing those guys (it's Buggy, Mr.3 and the Newkamas doing it). But it doesn't matter, because the most important one (at least to him) was his responsibility: Crocodile. Assuming he will meet again with Vivi, how will he be able to look into her eyes knowing he let Crocodile get free in order to acheive his own goals? He is not the kind of guy who will simply think "I had to do it to save Ace. Fuck off if you don't like it".
I don't think Luffy is developing in this way because I don't think he will keep doing this kind of things, but this will probably give him a lot of reasons to hate himself and feel guilty... yeah, maybe we are going to see a not-so-happy Luffy in the near future (unless Oda ignores it).

@Crossword:

Well, it would be kind of nice if Luffy did manage to take something away from this whole escapade. I originally thought that the whole fiasco on Sabaody would at least give him some small thoughts about the consequences of his actions. Be nice if he does get some lesson in responsibility as a captain after this.

I'm kind of hoping that due to his current actions, something goes wrong. There's the obvious possibility of Impel Down being destroyed, him not being able to save Ace, or he does save Ace but at the same time manages to ensure Whitebeard's death. Something to broaden his worldview a bit. Not asking for his IQ to suddenly jump through the roof, or him to go all depressed and emo on us, or radically change his personality, just something to give him a reason to reflect on some of his recent actions and better himself as an individual.

Okay you can easily dismiss his compromises because of the stress, influence from others and also the fact that vigour hormones are overriding every miniscule capacity for reasoning he did not have in the first place.

And you can also dismiss that he will ponder upon the past. Its not his style, "that would be boring".

But he's a righteous guy and doesn't evade responsibility. I'm with .access timeco. and Crossword on this, I really hope Oda will give the consequences of his actions some attention. Even if it only means cleaning up the mess by kicking BB's ass and decimating his crew out of a sense of obligation and not just as part of the natural course of things. Even if it only means a 'grown up talk' with someone like Jinbei or Iva.

! Nobody's talking radical changes or whatnot, even so grumpy irritable emo Luffy with a black vest would be funny for a minute Lol [obviously won't happen]

[Ninjabrownie]

@Airflow101:

Luffy hasn't had any character development in over 500 chapters. What makes you think he's going to start now?

It says so in the introduction. Morally, his actions are of a different quality already. Following that, the discussion goes

• dismissing due to stress etc.
• recognizing there will be ramifications in the future
• hoping/speculating Oda will give this attention

That, and also because he's growing in power and in influence. Power brings responsibility. The further he goes the more of an issue this will become.

[DSC]

@ThunderEarthFire:

Villain - a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.

So to answer the question who is a villain in One Piece's World Government:

Elder five stars - Yes
World Nobles - Yes
Average Marine - No
Smoker - No
Tashigi - No
Aokiji - No
Kizaru - No
Akainu - Yes
Magellan - Yes
Sadi-chan - Yes
Shiryu - Yes
Average ID guard - Yes
Hannayabal - Yes
Saldeath - Yes
Spandam - Yes
Spandain - Yes
CP9 - Yes
T-bone - No
Garp - No
Coby - No
Helmeppo - No
Moria - Yes
Croc - Yes
Hancock - Yes
Jinbei - No
Donflamingo - Yes
Mihawk - Yes
Kuma - ?
Blackbeard - Yes

and that's about it or at least everyone I can think of, I gave Kuma a question mark cause I don't think this can be answered yet for him.

Yes but the Strawhat line-up is about as friendly.

Robin - Yes (assassin for most of her life)
Zoro - Yes (he's sacrifice himself for his friends but he's got no problems killing people indiscriminately)
Franky - Yes (sure, he's weak to sob stories but the guy was the mafia in W7 and, of course, the Usopp thing)
Nami - Yes (One word: Beri)
Chopper - No
Usopp - No
Brook - No
Sanji - No
Luffy - ? (Luffy's very near-sighted as he tends to see his goals and his friends and family as important but outside of that, he doesn't care too much. Although Hancock helps him, he leaves her to die of her 'sickness' and although seeing the female Celestial Dragon shoot her slave angered him, he was content to sit back and think of amusement parks until it affected his friends. Then there's Impel Down, Crocodile. Speaks for itself)

Sometimes One Piece's characters aren't as clear cut as many other shonen's. For example, whilst Hannyabal's selfish and schemes for his boss' job, he's prepared to sacrifice himself to stop a breakout and he does make a pretty good point against Luffy's actions. I like that Oda leaves it up to his readers most of the time, rather than proclaim the protagonist the messiah and hand him a magical book to hammer home the point.

[loledinmypants]

I don't know if/when Oda will have Luffy realize the consequences of his actions, but with all the hype the New World is getting, I'd hope he figures it out by then. Power-ups like the Gears can only take a reckless idiot so far. Luffy's the only Straw Hat without any real change that's happened over the last 500+ chapters, and while his personality shouldn't change, he should at least put a little bit more consideration into things otherwise it seems, at least with all the hype about it, that the New World will turn into Sabaody repeats of the SHs getting pwned. Luffy and quite possibly the Monster Trio are more than strong enough in terms of fighting power for the New World imo, but Luffy at least lacks a little in terms of ability to make wise decisions as a captain. Not asking for him to suddenly become Robin level wise, but at least a little better. Zoro would make a better captain for decision-making purposes atm imo. And the emo Luffy comment made me lol, it'd be a funny sight, for one panel.

[Fiasco.]

Luffy is Holden. Intresting.

[Rakuen]

@loledinmypants:

Zoro would make a better captain for decision-making purposes atm imo. And the emo Luffy comment made me lol, it'd be a funny sight, for one panel.

Zoro nearly sliced a Tenryubito up earlier - without much ado. Calling him a better captain is ridiculous, as he is just as reckless as Luffy…

[Crossword]

Well, Zoro wasn't around for the warning about the Celestial Dragons, and he was attacked first…

[grunk]

Zoro probably wouldn't have ran from Magellan, then again he would be more likely to beat him anyway.

Luffy is developing. He's gotten more mature lately, after losing his crew and being through hell it's arguably made him more serious.
Up until recently he's gotten less carefree.. he knows himself and his Nakama will get wiped out if doesn't take things seriously now.
Though it still is his personality somewhere even if he can't show it (and always will be.. he wants to be PK to be the most free man on earth).. and he'll always be a goofball in his down time. He needs to smarten up and grow up.. this is the middle of the story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth#Initiation
If Oda is following the classic "Hero's journey" at all.. Luffy is at the point where he's becoming the man he's destined to be and growing up.

[TLC]

@Crossword:

Well, Zoro wasn't around for the warning about the Celestial Dragons, and he was attacked first…

Yet he lamented that he couldn't be the one to slice up Charlos when he shot Hachi.

[Crossword]

Well yeah, by that point, everyone wanted a piece of the guy.

[Silvers_Rayleigh]

@loledinmypants:

I don't know if/when Oda will have Luffy realize the consequences of his actions, but with all the hype the New World is getting, I'd hope he figures it out by then.

I personally feel that Luffy already realizes the consequences of what he does - but he doesn't care. To luffy the most important thing to him in the world even over becoming the pirate king are his nakama. Much like whitebeard will not tolerate anyone hurting his family - luffy doesn't care if he dies trying to save a friend or family member.

[Ninjabrownie]

Thanks for the link Grunk. Oda is well read, so with the classical pattern of a hero's journey, the recent events and the fact that we're halfway through the story/land it all fits together.

@Silvers_Rayleigh:

To luffy the most important thing to him in the world even over becoming the pirate king are his nakama.
…luffy doesn't care if he dies trying to save a friend or family member.

Remember Whiskey Peak? He wanted to kill Zoro for taking out the guys who gave them food.

Luffy has strong morals and so far it was easy - everybody he fought was clearly in the wrong. Even Enies Lobby, despite it being the Worlds judicial island, was a tribunal (that had condemned Tom) run by a psychotic maniac.

So far everybody agrees that Luffy doesn't really think ahead. He decides what to do on impulse and feeling. He doesn't think of consequences. Every action is always based on good intent. Its always about the right choice, the guy is pure goodness.
In ID this changes. Because he has to save his brother, he's in a situation where the result is more important. He has to make concessions to his morality. His whims, his freedom, are a luxury he can't afford in ID. Hence he teams up with Buggy (who destroyed a peaceful village) and lets Crocodile out. Hence he leaves people who are on his side behind. In ID, the end justifies the means. And the means are crooked.

@Silvers_Rayleigh:

I personally feel that Luffy already realizes the consequences of what he does - but he doesn't care.

Yeah okay I don't mean to pick your post apart, it seems a lot of people think of Luffy like this. And so far it fits the bill. Thing is, his reach is growing. With every arc completed he becomes that much more influential. He wants to become PK because that is the person with the most freedom in the world. Which is fine, freedom is a good thing. As long as you don't infringe on other people's freedom. Right now, Luffy is doing exactly that. Hanyabel and Magellan are the last line of defence for countless innocent civilians who would be terrorized and exploited by the gangster in ID.
His loyalty to Ace is greater at the moment, but after the headache there will have to be (I hope) some sort of reckoning of what he has actually done.

[Vanessa]

@Ninjabrownie:

Right now, Luffy is doing exactly that. Hanyabel and Magellan are the last line of defence for countless innocent civilians who would be terrorized and exploited by the gangster in ID.
His loyalty to Ace is greater at the moment, but after the headache there will have to be (I hope) some sort of reckoning of what he has actually done.

Magellan is already taking care of that by neutralizing the escaping prisoners at a very rapid rate. Oda is using him to not have Luffy's break-in and subsequent massive mutiny of which he's the leader of within Impel Down result in the escape of the vast majority of prisoners.

Which ends up not making Luffy a "bad" guy in the eyes of the reader.