And our founding fathers didnt fight and die for evil!:ninja:
World Government Corruption?
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I have to think all the evils the world government does and the destroying of islands is because they feel that the resurrection of the weapons equals the end of the world.
Their thinking must be, trade off one or two islands and a bunch of people to save the entire world. Though, I'm sure they're also covering up a lot of there own problems.
I have to believe the majority or the marines believe in the cause they're fighting for without even knowing the full details. I'm not saying what they do is right and there is probably a better way to deal with this situation but at present time this is all the WG can think of to save the majority of people.
~Kyoujin Pirates Treasurer~
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That's what sit ins were - they refused to obey the unjust racist laws that told them where they could or could not go. They DID peacefully violate unjust laws. Same with Ghandi.
There is no logic, no way it is reasonable that execution is a suitable crime for studying phoneglyphs to learn the True History.
There's also no way it's a coincidence that the World Government rose to power in the Void Century.
You seriously overestimate the powers of "changing" laws - the World Government in One Piece, first of all, is not a democracy. Otherwise the egomaniacle, self-serving, corrupt Celestial Dragons would not be reagrded as nobles.
The amount of beuracracy and political corruption in real life should be proof enough that simply protesting will not always sway the hearts of those in power. As the old saying goes, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
I'm not implying the entire World Government is evil - especially not the Marines. The vast majority of the Marines fight for what they believe to be justice. But the very top, the leaders themselves? They are extremely corrupt.
The Celestial Dragons, the Elder Stars, Akainu, Spandam, Lucci, the rest of CP9, Sengoku (more and more evidence), and a few others are terribly corrupt.
There is a saying, "I watch what I do to know what I believe." The best way to know what a person believes is to observe their actions. What do the actions of the Celestial Dragons and Elder Stars tell us about their basic human characteristics?
As for me making things "too moral"…you cannot escape that fact. Run as far as you will, there is good and evil in the world. It is within all of us to become that evil, as there are consequences to every decision we make.
If the Ohara Scholars simply deserved what they got, so then did Dr. Hiriluk. Should he have acknowledge Wapol's decree that no doctors could treat patients and tried to appeal to the "benevolent" king or should he have broken the law?
As for killing the Ohara Scholars to hide the truth...this is not a moral dilema. Kill scholars for doing research helps save who from dying? They couldn't simply imprison them? This is hardly the same dilema as (use another manga as an example...spoilers if you haven't read Monster) Tenma deciding if he should or should not kill Johan Liebert. Tenma saved the life of a truly terrifying human being and felt he was the one who had to kill Johan...but he couldn't bring himself to take a life, no matter how many others it would mean saving...THAT is a moral dilema, a case where lives are on the line. Who elses' lives were on the line at Ohara? No one - only the reputation of the World Government. Only their public immage. That is why Nico Robin was hunted from the age of 8 and the hundreds of civilians were murdered. They were all innocent of a crime, including Nico Robin - that is why Luffy stood up to CP9 at Enies Lobby and took down Rob Lucci.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
There is no logic, no way it is reasonable that execution is a suitable crime for studying phoneglyphs to learn the True History.
Havent we been over this a millions times already? It depends on what the true history is, and what consequences it would have on the world. It they are severe enough execution might be suitable.
The amount of beuracracy and political corruption in real life should be proof enough that simply protesting will not always sway the hearts of those in power.
If you push long enough and with enough force, i.e you get enough people to support you they will eventualy have no choice but to listen. Happend in my country, we even presuaded our king to give up almost all of his power.
The Celestial Dragons, the Elder Stars, Akainu, Spandam, Lucci, the rest of CP9, Sengoku (more and more evidence), and a few others are terribly corrupt.
Im not contesting that the rest of them range from the world nobles evil to the general douchebaggery of Sengoku, but so far what've seen of the elder stars they seem like decent people.
There is a saying, "I watch what I do to know what I believe." The best way to know what a person believes is to observe their actions. What do the actions of the Celestial Dragons and Elder Stars tell us about their basic human characteristics?
The look of sorrow on one of the elder stars face as he issues the order to eliminate the scholars suggests that he's a perfectly decent guy, who has to contend with tought decisions.
As for me making things "too moral"…you cannot escape that fact. Run as far as you will, there is good and evil in the world. It is within all of us to become that evil
I dont really belive in a definite "good" or "evil".
If the Ohara Scholars simply deserved what they got, so then did Dr. Hiriluk. Should he have acknowledge Wapol's decree that no doctors could treat patients and tried to appeal to the "benevolent" king or should he have broken the law?
Who ever said they deserved it? But its up to him really, personaly i probably would have broken the law, but i wouldnt have whined about how unfair it is that im getting the punishment the law dictates when i willingly and knowingly broke it.
Who elses' lives were on the line at Ohara? No one - only the reputation of the World Government. Only their public immage.
If you think that all that was on the line during the Ohara situation and the reason why Rayleigh keeps his mouth shut and thinks the Oharans might have been better of doing so as well was because they were only concerned with the world goverments good name and reputation then im just going to stop arguing with you right here.
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**You go Vongola_Boss_XI!!!!!
this is a awesome topic. i support** **Vongola_Boss_XI.
Like i said earlier When i posted The Donflamingo Quote.
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Thats exactly how the OP government is working.Like Vongola said**
So by that warped logic - that the government can do no wrong and those who violate the law are strictly the criminals, the escaped slaves and Northerners who helped them deserved their punishment as criminals? Those who fought for civil rights through sit-ins, etc. deserved their punishment for violating racist laws?
You must realize that not all laws are just and not all governments are beyond corruption.
I get what your saying to wolfwood
Why are you making it so moral, if you know there is a punishment for a certain act, and you say to hell with the consequences and willingly do it anyway you know that if you get caught doing it you will suffer that punishment.
They knew what they were getting themselves into and willing to take the consequences that is all im saying.
**And afterwards you said We dont know the True History yet Rayliegh Implies its not so bad as we think, or that the world government might be even good…
but what i dont get is if the history doesnt actually make the World Goverment look bad according to Rayliegh's view than why kill the Ohara Citizens?
Many Characters in One Piece are Raised With A bunch of Question they don't know the answers to , and just Felt Betrayed, They want Justice so they try to seek it themselves with Power and Friends.
-Why did My whole island get destroyed for Trying to learn a language? "Robin"
-Tom-san Was taken away and i couldnt save him "franky"
-Boa Hancock
-Camie
-Hachie
-Jimbie
Characters like these are Grown up Hating the Government and there laws.
Like oda said they view the world differently From the day they were born.
They will continue to fight against those who harmed them. and go against them.
Robin is still Trying to learn the History, Being a pirate is a crime , Should they stop doing that cause their breaking the law.
My view points are.
_-_there will be always** Corruption in a government. no matter which government. But if the Corruption is in with the people with little to no power and authority, that government i can view as Good But if the Corruption is in with people who Make the laws and are the powerful Who have Authority than Its EVIL. **and Thats what we have in One piece.Lets think about it… how do u think One Piece will end?
Will The World still be Running the same way like it is now?
Will camie and Hachie still be recognized as just a disgusting Fish and Second class Citizen who cant walk on Some Government owned land, and enjoy a happly lifestyle like other people.(Racism)
Will Slavery Continue?
in my opinion all this will change. Who will Be responsible for it, Mostly The One's Who are Fighting against it.
Like some people said earlier Luffy isnt the kind a guy who gives a shit about the world he only cares about his Friends and people he Likes. I complety agree. But Luffy will Still have a hand in Changing this Indirectly
But he and his crew will not be the only one to Change all this , Thats why we have People with background Stories who hate what the've been through these horrible way of lifestyle.
and they will all play a part to change it.
Will the Marines still stay in power at the end ?? Yes, Imo but will the one's in Power be like they are now??? NO
Ethier we will get knew ones (koby , Helmepoo , Smoker etc......) or The current ones will have a change of Heart.**
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And afterwards you said We dont know the True History yet Rayliegh Implies its not so bad as we think, or that the world government might be even good…
Where on earth did you people ever hear me saying that they were "good"?
What im suggesting is that we go in to this story thinking we have all the answers, that we can spot the bad guy from miles away by one look at his dastardly mustache, and the story consists of the heroes besting the big evil and all is once again well in the land. But as it is implied things arent that simple, just as things are never as simple as we'd like em to be. And maybe by the end of it with all the cards on the table our firmly established notions of "evil" and those we once considerd nothing but evil may be shaken, in a story as deep as this isnt there room for more than just evil for the sake of evil?
but what i dont get is if the history doesnt actually make the World Goverment look bad according to Rayliegh's view than why kill the Ohara Citizens?
Never said it wasnt something that made them look bad, it probably is to some degree. Just said that such a thing alone isnt reason enough to go to such lengths, if it was just a public image problem they have it within their power to twist it about to their own end should they have to. Nor would Rayleigh give a rats ass about it staying a secret if it was such a trivial thing.
**Lets think about it… how do u think One Piece will end?
Will The World still be Running the same way like it is now?**
No they probably will be remodeled, but what i do belive is that your set in stone view of the elder stars as the purest of "evil" will be shaken before its through. Why else would he even bother to attempt to humanize them if all he wanted them to be was a bunch of megalomaniacs who crave nothing but power.
Like some people said earlier Luffy isnt the kind a guy who gives a shit about the world he only cares about his Friends and people he Likes. I complety agree. But Luffy will Still have a hand in Changing this Indirectly
That would be me who said that, and yes he probably will.
But he'll never be a moral leader of anykind, he's just he dude who beats up people he doesnt like.
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Where on earth did you people ever hear me saying that they were "good"?
well I was thinking either you were implying that
-they weren't so bad by Using what Rayliegh said
-or they were good.I guess its the 1st one than cause in your opinon
Just said that such a thing alone isnt reason enough to go to such lengths, if it was just a public image problem they have it within their power to twist it about to their own end should they have to. Nor would Rayleigh give a rats ass about it staying a secret if it was such a trivial thing.
Well i guess we disagree on the fact that you dont think its a big enough reason to label the World government Evil After that incident alone.
But as a collection of their evil deeds from those in power, do you than not Call them evil? such as: I wont add the evil deeds done by those with little to no authority cause according to my views l can let them pass ^^.
Ohara
Enies Lobbies
Shanbody Island (bubble island sorry is a tongue twister for me i cant pronounce it so i cant spell it.)
their racist laws.
Slavery (which they are responsible for and can stop)
Tennryubi(world nobles)
hidden Agenda's
Deceptions , Betrayal (WhiteBeard)
Allowing Corruption and letting go on(Spandam,Crocodile)but what i dont get is if the history doesnt actually make the World Goverment look bad according to Rayliegh's view than why kill the Ohara Citizens?
Never said it wasnt something that made them look bad, it probably is to some degree.
sorry if it looked like i was Talking to just you in that post but I was asking this question to everyone in general
Also i dont think the Elders stars as Evil that cant change "set in Stone view" i do believe that they choose what they thought was right or so i hope cause there would be no point of Rayliegh defending them.
But what they did was Wrong ? Yes it was.
Like i said if the History Isnt so bad (from Rayliegh points of view)
There shouldnt be a reason no matter what it is to kill off the whole island.Including Women and Children.But let me add this Just in case that the reason for the World government is a "Valid one to do what they did" for example"
I believe that if you have to choose between two evils and you have no other choice , You choose the lesser Evil.
and if thats what they did, Avoided the Greater evil than I would say that the Elders are not Evil.
But i would still say that the World Government is still Evil as a Whole cause they still got Guys like
Akainu Calling Shots along with others.If the Leaders of the Goverment can Stay Pure than The people can have justice even if the Regular Officer of the government are evil cause as long as the ones in charge can Hear the people and Go anwser there calls and provide justice.
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I dont think that the WG will be destroyed in this manga. Everyone in the WG will be good by the end of the series…the marines will be full of guys like Ao Kiji, Smoker, Coby, Hannyabal, Helmeppo etc. The revolutionairies wont have a problem with them.
And....those who believe in absolute justice and such shit will be beaten including Sengoku,Akainu, Kizaru ... -
I dont think that the WG will be destroyed in this manga. Everyone in the WG will be good by the end of the series…the marines will be full of guys like Ao Kiji, Smoker, Coby, Hannyabal, Helmeppo etc. The revolutionairies wont have a problem with them.
And….those who believe in absolute justice and such shit will be beaten including Sengoku,Akainu, Kizaru ...Lol whut
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I dont think that the WG will be destroyed in this manga. Everyone in the WG will be good by the end of the series…the marines will be full of guys like Ao Kiji, Smoker, Coby, Hannyabal, Helmeppo etc. The revolutionairies wont have a problem with them.
And....those who believe in absolute justice and such shit will be beaten including Sengoku,Akainu, Kizaru ...I dont think so, if it were to go that way than the main focus of one piece would be destroyed. which is Freedom.
Not everyone will be good. There will always be guys like Morgan, Krieg , Kuro, Wapol, Spandam, Crocodile.
Imo it will be the same as it is Now but with the Revolutionaries gone and the Leaders of the Goverment in good hands.
If the Government is good why would there be a rebellion?
Like they say Where there is Injustice and Oppression there is Rebellion.
It will only be Pirates VS. marines / bounty hunters and Civilains ^^.
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well I was thinking either you were implying that
-they weren't so bad by Using what Rayliegh said
-or they were good.I think a lot of pages has been spent to say that thinking in 100%good or 100% bad isn't right regarding what they do in the world.
Keyword what you're trying to classify is between good and evil. So is luffy! So are the revolutionaries etc… Some incline more to good and some more to evil but they're all in the grey zone. -
I think a lot of pages has been spent to say that thinking in 100%good or 100% bad isn't right regarding what they do in the world.
Keyword what you're trying to classify is between good and evil. So is luffy! So are the revolutionaries etc… Some incline more to good and some more to evil but they're all in the grey zone.and i have read them all.
Well The ones in the grey like Aoi Kiji, Luffy Revolutionaries Etc.. Like you said Some incline more to good and some more to evil but they're all in the grey zone.
But there are those who Are in the Black/Red Zone and they are people Involved in the Government Who have Authority.
Which makes the World Government Evil Or i should Say Corrupted. "yes thats a better word."
such as:
Spandam
Akainu
Maybe Elders Stars (find out when the reason for their decision to eradicate Ohara
Nobles
and the laws of the Government that Allows Slavery and Racism. (Which they can Stop if they want to Easily.) -
Love how some people bum the law.
Breaking the law of a corrupt gov't is not bad. The WG are corrupt… a monkey could figure that out.
Guys don't lie, I'm sure almost every one of you have broken the law on one occasion or more in your lives. If you haven't, feel the thrill !!
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and i have read them all.
Well The ones in the grey like Aoi Kiji, Luffy Revolutionaries Etc.. Like you said Some incline more to good and some more to evil but they're all in the grey zone.
I bet that even the revs have, as well as pirates some black sheeps.
But there are those who Are in the Black/Red Zone and they are people Involved in the Government Who have Authority.
So if i understand it correctly the government is represented by them cause they have authority and every other officer (who also have authority) who inclines more to good doesn't count anymore?
Which makes the World Government Evil Or i should Say Corrupted. "yes thats a better word."
such as:Spandam
Akainu
Maybe Elders Stars (find out when the reason for their decision to eradicate Ohara
Nobles
and the laws of the Government that Allows Slavery and Racism. (Which they can Stop if they want to Easily.)At least guys like spandam hide what they did to the government until luffy came to take him down. Akainu had a mission and he did what he thought was necessary to achieve it. It's not that he was displayed to enjoy the death screams of oharans. He is just too much into absolute justice that he's willing to sacrifice a few lifes for the sake of his mission which he seems to rate higher than life. It's not the best way to achieve things to achieve things but at least he doesn't act like spandam (from what we saw).
So far the tenryubitos are really the most corrupt people on earth.We though don't know how powerful they are in the WG. Maybe they're like an "Übel" the rest of the WG can't eliminate without sinking into chaos…
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@$abZ:
Love how some people bum the law.
Breaking the law of a corrupt gov't is not bad. The WG are corrupt… a monkey could figure that out.
Guys don't lie, I'm sure almost every one of you have broken the law on one occasion or more in your lives. If you haven't, feel the thrill !!
It's almost impossible to not break a law. On average, we all break 5 every week. Probably because there're so many of them.
On another note, it's now illegal to undertake another car on the road in the UK.
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Ugh i hate that line of thought, no one who isnt evil could kill, if a person doesnt only do good things then he's evil.
I agree that everything isn't black and white, but in that specific case that you were referring to here, I was talking about them killing pregnant women and babies.. And not just specifically ones that they knew were related to Roger, but ones who were "suspicious". Maybe you can make the argument that the elder stars aren't evil for wiping out Ohara because they felt they had a reason, but there's no way that people who commit indiscriminate murder of pregnant women, mothers, and babies are good. That's just crossing a line and it couldn't be morally justified.
As for the idea that they might not kill any of them if they don't find a comparison, there's still the fact that they were prepared to, and the line wouldn't have been said if it wasn't meant to suggest something.
And would that then make us evil?
In this case, I might say so. Even though the Ohara scholars were willingly breaking the laws, even though they knew the punishment, and even if they were "willing to take the punishment", that doesn't mean they deserved it (even though you said you don't think they deserved it, you're saying that you don't feel sympathy for them because they knew what they were doing, and I don't see much difference there). Even if the true history is something extremely dangerous, I would still consider the elder stars evil people who were trying to do what they felt was good - like I've said, there certainly could have been other ways to dispose of what was there, yet they resorted to "kill the scholars and philosophers and burn the books". As a government, killing their own people should be an extreme last resort, but as soon as they learned what was going on at Ohara, they killed them without giving them a chance and then blamed it on a nine-year-old (this is something else that is so completely absurd I can't see how it could be defended. Robin did eventually become a criminal who might have done horrible things, but it was only because the government set out to ruin any life she could have had - the only justification being "she was an archaeologist at the age of nine".)
To paraphrase what you said, it could be evil for the sake of good, or evil for the sake of what they believe is good. But I think you can only commit so many horrible acts in the name of good before you lose the ability to call yourself "good". It doesn't help that the government has their whole thing about declaring themselves divine and holy.
but i wouldnt have whined about how unfair it is that im getting the punishment the law dictates when i willingly and knowingly broke it.
Even if the laws are clearly unjust? From the perspective of the Oharan scholars (or basically anyone), they didn't see any wrong in what they were doing - they just wanted to study history. Maybe the secret really is something that could lead to the end of the world even without the ancient weapons, but I don't think most people would disagree that a government killing its own people for studying history is a particularly good one (and One Piece's government clearly thinks the same way since they cover up the real reason for scholar executions with "they wanted to destroy the world". It's true that the government just coming out and saying "really terrible things happened in the past and if you know about them, the world gets destroyed" looks suspicious, but it wouldn't arouse interest in studying the Poneglyphs any more than "the Poneglyphs have information that allows you to destroy the world and we will kill you if you try to read them").
As for the comparison of Akainu to the Seven Seas that you made and that I accidentally deleted, I think that it's worse for one of the leaders of the military to be a person with zero regard for innocent life and with twisted morals than it is for a mercenary to be like that. The idea of the Seven Seas is bad, but I think that Akainu is a worse person than any of them (although Crocodile does come close, and I suppose Moria might too).
If the Government is good why would there be a rebellion?
There can easily be rebellions in countries with decent governments. Real life isn't so simple, but looking at DR Congo, I would say that the government, which is just trying to bring stability to a war-torn land, is better than the rebellions incited by nearby countries who want DR Congo's natural resources. This is just one example, and it's probably more complex than this, but a rebellion doesn't have to mean the government deserves to be overthrown.
In One Piece's case, I don't know if I would say the revolutionaries are the good guys either. There are good revolutionaries, like there are good pirates and Marines, but on the whole, the revolutionaries seem pretty brutal and may just want to seize power for the sake of it - possibly better than your average pirate and the government heads, but not actually good or just.
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But as a collection of their evil deeds from those in power, do you than not Call them evil?
What is this fascination with putting everything under a label?
No i dont consider the elder stars "evil" for that, nor would i label them good.
Shanbody Island andtheir racist laws.
Slavery (which they are responsible for and can stop)
Tennryubi(world nobles)Not saying those things arent horrible, but they are limited to one island under the jurisdiction of what must be asssumed are people who got some pretty heavy monetary sway in the world. And that would fall into the balance of things, its not pretty but the world almost never is.
I mean Tom was a popular guy so i assume there was no racist laws in W7. So it isnt a world wide phenomenon. Nor does slavery seem to have spread any further. But yeah they are major douches and i think the nobles and their little set up are going to be washed out at the end of the story. Or possibly sooner.
Also i dont think the Elders stars as Evil that cant change "set in Stone view" i do believe that they choose what they thought was right or so i hope cause there would be no point of Rayliegh defending them.
Huh must have mixed you up with someone else then.
I believe that if you have to choose between two evils and you have no other choice , You choose the lesser Evil.
and if thats what they did, Avoided the Greater evil than I would say that the Elders are not Evil.
Isnt that global politics in a nutshell, you can never make the perfect decision.
@Sir:
As for the idea that they might not kill any of them if they don't find a comparison, there's still the fact that they were prepared to, and the line wouldn't have been said if it wasn't meant to suggest something.
That they were prepared to kill the superpowered fruit of Roger's loins yes. Like i said if it isnt that he actualy carries with him some power due to his heritage i dont see why the hell they wanted him dead so badly.
even though you said you don't think they deserved it, you're saying that you don't feel sympathy for them because they knew what they were doing, and I don't see much difference there.
I feel sympathy for the civilians who had to die, who had nothing to do with this and just got caught up in things beyond their control. I dont feel pity for a man who willingly puts himself and others in the line of fire.
As a government, killing their own people should be an extreme last resort
I do belive this is a last resort situation, they had ample warnings before hand. Or are you suggesting that the WG goes around razing islands all the time?
To paraphrase what you said, it could be evil for the sake of good, or evil for the sake of what they believe is good. But I think you can only commit so many horrible acts in the name of good before you lose the ability to call yourself "good".
I somewhat agree, that's why i never in any of these arguments have called them "good".
What a situation like that falls into is beyond white or black.
Even if the laws are clearly unjust? From the perspective of the Oharan scholars (or basically anyone), they didn't see any wrong in what they were doing - they just wanted to study history.
Maybe the secret really is something that could lead to the end of the world even without the ancient weapons, but I don't think most people would disagree that a government killing its own people for studying history is a particularly good one
I wish people would stop calling it studying history, that is not the reason why it happend if you wanna read infantry tactics in the late 11th century the goverment isnt going to take you away. But if your reading groups is currently plowing through classified documents with defense secrets on them you are. Why is it so hard to make that distinction.
"the Poneglyphs have information that allows you to destroy the world and we will kill you if you try to read them").
Isnt that the general gist of the actual law?
As for the comparison of Akainu to the Seven Seas that you made and that I accidentally deleted, I think that it's worse for one of the leaders of the military to be a person with zero regard for innocent life and with twisted morals than it is for a mercenary to be like that.
He's a douchebag allright, but look at it this way. He alone is probably worth more in fighting power than all those 100,000 marines gathered in Marineford right now. Its not the thing you can just cast aside when the balance you've crafted is hanging on thread as it is.
In One Piece's case, I don't know if I would say the revolutionaries are the good guys either. There are good revolutionaries, like there are good pirates and Marines, but on the whole, the revolutionaries seem pretty brutal and may just want to seize power for the sake of it - possibly better than your average pirate and the government heads, but not actually good or just.
Hey alteast something we can agree on^^
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My main complaints of the World Gov't. remain unchanged. Namely, that their morals are no better than a pirate's, and that their Public Relations department tries to paint them as saints. If they could publicly admit that their methods are draconian, as well as necessary, then their administration might stink less of hypocrisy. As it is, they are too quick to justify any means as both legally and morally acceptable when faced with criticism.
Now, turning back the clock a bit, I'd love to discuss the existance of Cipher Pol 9 at length. As an elite Special Operations Unit, I have no complaints- Sometimes a small, highly trained and specialized unit of individuals is the better choice for success than a full-scale military response, especially in situations where time is short. However, the existance of an assassination squad that answers directly to only one governing body, yet is authorized to work within the jurisdiction of any and every other governing body, without having to notify anyone outside of their direct chain of command? That is cause for concern. Call it a necessary evil, if you like, but remember this: the necessity of an action by no means changes its absolute moral value, only its relative moral weight.
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Dont see how that is that is that much of a cause for concern, Isnt that the whole point of having a black ops division in the first place? To deal with the dirty work without having to go through the proper channels. Kind of like how the american goverment can use the CIA to abduct people suspected of terrorism in countries where they have no jurisdiction.
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Dont see how that is that is that much of a cause for concern, Isnt that the whole point of having a black ops division in the first place? To deal with the dirty work without having to go through the proper channels. Kind of like how the american goverment can use the CIA to abduct people suspected of terrorism in countries where they have no jurisdiction.
That's one of those things that probably happens but can't be proven and if any of those CIA operatives get caught then they'd be up shits creek, well in OP if you try to impede CP9 if they themselves don't kill you then you'd still face punishment under the jurisdiction of the WG.
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Its not something that probably happens, its something that's been proven to happen. Italy caught a bunch of agents when they tried to abduct some of their ehm muslim citizens and put them on trial. But as you said the american goverment of course said what? CIA never heard of em maybe you should ask Canada:ninja:
Yeah they would probably kill you but then again the CP9 dont come into play unless the stakes are sky high. And in those cases one would assume that if some people die to get the job done then its acceptable in any goverments eyes.
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CP9 = James Bond(from movies)/Osama Bin Ladin(when he was working for CIA)
Five Elder Stars = Militant capitalists
pirates = Somalian pirates/Digital piratesyou get the idea…
it's a war...
unethical laws Vs. illegal ethics
Example: Greed(Capitalism) Vs. Generosity(Sharing) -
Dont see how that is that is that much of a cause for concern, Isnt that the whole point of having a black ops division in the first place? To deal with the dirty work without having to go through the proper channels.
My complaint isn't that they 'don't go through the proper channels'. Rather, that they are the proper channels, wherever they go. In the example of the U.S. and its CIA operatives, the U.S. gave them a mission, and so far as I know, failure was not an option (even though it failed.) If they got caught, they knew that they had no support from the government; on the other hand, they probably knew that the usual diplomatic horseplay would run its course and they might eventually be released from prison- if they ever went to prison in the first place. So far as I know, they weren't given the leeway to kill any and all Italian citizens that found out about their mission.
I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh
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@_Meh_:
My complaint isn't that they 'don't go through the proper channels'. Rather, that they are the proper channels, wherever they go. In the example of the U.S. and its CIA operatives, the U.S. gave them a mission, and so far as I know, failure was not an option (even though it failed.) If they got caught, they knew that they had no support from the government;
Funny enough they didnt seem to realize that, the spokesman for the group seemed to be desillusioned with the goverment for not stepping in on their behalf which is kinda dumb cause like you said once the US subtly threw their weight around they never got sent to anything near a jail.
So far as I know, they weren't given the leeway to kill any and all Italian citizens that found out about their mission.
Nah but that probably has more to do with that there werent anything major hanging in the scales. If this was something concerning established WMDs a license to kill as they see fit would probably be issued.
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Nah, but that probably has more to do with that there weren't anything major hanging in the scales. If this was something concerning established WMDs a license to kill as they see fit would probably be issued.
Exactly so. That's why I have issue with the World Government giving license to kill to guys like Fukurou who have no business being in the espionage business. I could understand taking out three people that were a threat to (inter)national security- though I don't necessarily agree with it- but taking out an additional twenty people because you can't keep your mouth shut?! And all he got was a reprimand! You'd think they would have demoted him back to CP 8, or barring that, just had Jyabura or Kumadori "retire" him. Instead, they chew him out and let him keep working at a top-secret job that he can't even keep secret. That is just stupid. And stupidity is the mysterious nature of evil.
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Not denying that the whole thing seems mind bogglingly stupid.
But since the CP9 are apparently orphans who are trained for what seems be a period of 20-30+ years to get these results and if one of them doesnt live up to their ideal it takes another half a lifetime to train a new one. So after all that training throwing them out for every "little" thing is not an option. Not to mention that they seemed to be split up according to capabilities into the more competent infiltration group. And the more whacko pure assasination group.
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Hey, whacko assassination squads are fine- the playing field tends to level itself out eventually, as every country winds up either hiring them on an as-needed basis or keeping their services on permanent retainer. The problem here is that, if Sakura kingdom formed an elite black ops team and assassinated the Gorousei for threatening them with slavery if they don't join the World Government, they wouldn't simply be declared an enemy of the World Government; they'd be declared an enemy of the whole world, just as Ohara was. So that, instead of sending out Cipher Police # 9 to infiltrate the halls of power and assassinate Dalton (thus destabilizing the country by eliminating its leader and making them more likely to comply with your earlier demands), they would instead Buster Call the entire island. The basis for this assumption is the Ohara Incident itself: they had the resources to infiltrate the scholars ranks and assassinate them all, after determining accurately how many scholars there were involved in studying the forbidden history and who these scholars were. A little more preliminary footwork, or simply keeping track of a situation which should have sent up red flags to begin with (archeologists study the past- ergo, if you forbid the study of certain eras of history entirely, you should keep all archeologists under tight scrutiny) could have averted the entire situation. Instead, they chose the sloppy, stupid, incredibly wasteful method and destroyed an entire island
Now, I'm going to posit a pet theory of mine about government and people. People aren't altogether stupid- being stupid is just easier than having to think all of the time. The more people you have in a group, the greater the net stupidity of the group becomes when the group does not have a focus or goal to achieve. After all, if there isn't something that needs to be thought about by the group, why waste energy? Every group needs leaders that the group can agree to be accountable to. Otherwise, alot of time and effort is wasted in deciding who is in charge. This can also lead to hard feelings and the dissolution of the group.
Nations are essentially very large groups of people without a shared goal. As a result, the net stupidity of any given nation (not necessarily all of its citizens) is rather high. Governments are essentially the leaders of these groups, and they have the unenviable job of keeping the group from splintering into smaller groups. As a result, they oftentimes have to make decisions quickly and without time to consider the future ramifications of their actions. Ego can also get in the way during the decision making progress, as only an egotistical person would believe that they can get a bunch of stupid people to do something that works out as planned. Additionally, they must live with the decisions of previous leaders, and contend with the plans of leaders of other very large groups of stupid people. Making a good, insightful decision that benefits the masses and doesn't blow up in your face is difficult even at the national government level. Imagine how much harder it is at a global level, such as with the World Government.
I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh
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@_Meh_:
they had the resources to infiltrate the scholars ranks and assassinate them all, after determining accurately how many scholars there were involved in studying the forbidden history and who these scholars were.
Well if they dont want these normal people to know these secrets, would they really want a highly trained intelligence agent to learn of them. A guy like Luchi could if he wanted to disappear with all that knowledge and you would never find him unless he wanted you to. It essentialy boils down to a trust issue.
And in comparision the blunt approach, no matter how crude it would be. Would be preferable since its alot safer no?
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Well if they dont want these normal people to know these secrets, would they really want a highly trained intelligence agent to learn of them. A guy like Luchi could if he wanted to disappear with all that knowledge and you would never find him unless he wanted you to. It essentialy boils down to a trust issue.
And in comparision the blunt approach, no matter how crude it would be. Would be preferable since its alot safer no?
Certainly, so long as we overlook the fact that they are orphans raised from an early age to adore the World Government that took them in and raised them like their own. If they betray the WG, they have no one to turn to but their fellow CP 9 officers, who are not going to look kindly on a betrayal by one of their "brothers in arms".
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Depends on the person really, for instance i dont think that the concept of "loyalty" applies to a man like Lucci. Didnt he make it plenty clear that the only reason he hangs around is because it serves his personal intrest of getting to kill without consequences. And looking at the current events, it looks like the one person they seem to feel any actual loyalty to is their teacher. And not to the goverment as a whole or their superior in CP9.
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Depends on the person really, for instance i dont think that the concept of "loyalty" applies to a man like Lucci. Didnt he make it plenty clear that the only reason he hangs around is because it serves his personal intrest of getting to kill without consequences. And looking at the current events, it looks like the one person they seem to feel any actual loyalty to is their teacher. And not to the goverment as a whole or their superior in CP9.
Lucci cares about killing in the name of dark justice, why would he take the info of the void history and vanish with it when his job gives him the perfect outlet for his desire?
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Dunno maybe he doesnt get enough action to sate his bloodthirst, and the information could net him a better deal with the opposition? Not saying it would happen, but why would you even take the chance.
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Dunno maybe he doesnt get enough action to sate his bloodthirst, and the information could net him a better deal with the opposition? Not saying it would happen, but why would you even take the chance.
I don't think there is a chance, Lucci's flashback showed his deep belief and adherement to absolute/dark justice + the symbolism of his back scarring all pointed to his loyalty to the WG, I wouldn't even count what he's doing right now because he's not seeking vengeance against the WG establishment, just Spandam.
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Personaly i thought that it established that he's one sick puppy, who fights for his own beliefs and as long as those coincide with the goverments he's more than happy to serve em. But if they didnt he'd have no sentimental reasons to stick around.
Even if there wasnt a snowballs chance in hell of him defecting, there is still the possibility of him just holding on to the information as insurance. Which would still be a major problem for the goverment. With all things accounted the blunt approach is still the safest, and should idealy leave no traces left.
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Even if there wasnt a snowballs chance in hell of him defecting, there is still the possibility of him just holding on to the information as insurance. Which would still be a major problem for the goverment. With all things accounted the blunt approach is still the safest, and should idealy leave no traces left.
Except that, technically speaking, there is a member state of the World Gov't. (Alabasta) that is currently holding on to that information- even if they aren't capable of using the information themselves. Considering the remote possibility that Robin could have gotten into the royal tomb and deciphered the Poneglyph, shouldn't the WG have taken the blunt approach of dispatching a Buster Call to Alabasta, instead of just sending in an additional captain from HQ to round up escapees while ordering an Admiral to capture and/or dispose of Crocodile?
I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh
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The World Government doesn't know about Alabasta having a poneglyph though, and Hina was only sent due to Smoker's request after the situation in Rain Dinners.
In spite of them later finding out Robin was second in command of Baroque Works it's doubtful that they ever learned of Crocodile's goal to obtain Pluton and the poneglyph that would have revealed its location.
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@_Meh_:
shouldn't the WG have taken the blunt approach of dispatching a Buster Call to Alabasta, instead of just sending in an additional captain from HQ to round up escapees while ordering an Admiral to capture and/or dispose of Crocodile?
In addition to what Nessa said, i think the approach needed to deal with an entire country especialy one as huge as Alabsta is going to be diffrent from how you would deal with a tiny island with what at the very most 300 people. I doubt its seen as preferable or even feasible to destroy an entire country or a city of millions through a buster call.
Just because it was a preferable strategy at Ohara doesnt mean there arent other times when the cons outweigh the pro's and you have to go with a diffrent approach.
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@_Meh_:
Certainly, so long as we overlook the fact that they are orphans raised from an early age to adore the World Government that took them in and raised them like their own. If they betray the WG, they have no one to turn to but their fellow CP 9 officers, who are not going to look kindly on a betrayal by one of their "brothers in arms".
Speaking of CP9, why exactly are the Marines hunting them down? I know they failed spectacularly but would that be a good enough reason to dispose of such a valuable resource? Not to mention the number of marines they will lose in the process.
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Spandam put the blame on them.
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@Sir:
Spandam put the blame on them.
Blamed for what, for losing? That doesn't explain why they are being hunted like criminals. If its SOP for people who fail to be hunted down and killed then I would say the WG is pretty messed up.
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People fail all the time in the marines. The CP9 were questionable in the first place from the marines point of view. I mean, they were assassins.They'd be as trusted in WG as the shibukai. That, their failure with Spandams suggestion probably would be enough.
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@Rea:
People fail all the time in the marines. The CP9 were questionable in the first place from the marines point of view. I mean, they were assassins.They'd be as trusted in WG as the shibukai. That, their failure with Spandams suggestion probably would be enough.
I think it will be a case like with the auction house, where the Marines simply don't acknowledge CP9 as "assasins" but something else entirely.
As for why they are being hunted? They failed, they need to disappear. The WG can't have any failures as it would look bad for them. Look at Thriller Bark, Kuma's orders were to wipe out any traces of Moria's defeat. So, blame on CP9, CP9 fails; wipe out all traces of the failure. Plus, rogue former WG agents are a dangerous thing to have around, imagine what they know info wise that in the wrong hands could be fatal.
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Such behavior is not surprising in a government that promises 'Absolute Justice'; after all, failure would be a sign that they were not in fact, an absolute.
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Exactly! It seems sooner or later though, the WG is going to be its own undoing and it seems to be the current lean of undoing is; the pirate age. They've never had so much choas to tackle. I imagine up until now, failure didn't happen on such an epic scale.
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Just a quick question, was it ever specified that they wanted to kill the CP9?
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Chapter 494's coverstory shows that the orders were to capture CP9, not kill them.
However, they have probably been witness to a lot of the World Government's shady dealings due to being essentially the black-ops who do their dirty work. So had the order of capture even suceeded it would probably end up concluding with CP9's execution.
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I concur with the above statement. CP9 failed as a whole in their last mission and the WG most likely wont have any mercy. They've already been shown training replacements after all..
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Given the trainees were all kids I assume the World Government takes a long view on the whole CP9 thing and is continually training the next generation to replace the current. Which isn't surprising considering learning the fighting style of CP9 must be immensely difficult.
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Which isn't surprising considering learning the fighting style of CP9 must be immensely difficult.
Really? Then how can a guy like Coby go from spineless wimp to learning Soru (one of the Six Forms) in only a matter of months?
