This will probably get long so I will cut out and reduct the stuff in quotes that I have to respond to specifically and, if needed, put spoiler tags around longer sections… I'm basically only reiterating one point which explains all of the addressed parts so it really cannot be that wrong, mind you..
Premises:
1. Seastone works the same as Seawater.
2. Seawater causes the loss of control over a DF ability/renders DF users unable to activate their powers.
3. Therefore, all DF abilities have to work in a certain way (active/passive state debate; more of that below)
@Vanessa:
! @Vanessa:
! > If seastone was incapable of shutting down Power Users fully and instead exactly like being submerged in water, Ace being on the chopping block wouldn't be possible since the latter only causes a loss of control of one's abilities rather than inhibiting them which is what we've been shown with Luffy at Arlong Park, Chopper at Enies Lobby, Robin during the kraken's little rampage and Luffy's Elephant Gun against the same guy.
! This, again, shows that Ace as well as all Logias are not in elemental form when submerged in water/touched by Seastone and act as a normal, human body, same as Marco when he had Seastone cuffs put on him and was no longer able to transform or regenerate.
! > What we're actually outright shown in detail multiple times hold a lot better than having a character say how it "feels" to him/her. So using Smoker's little dumbed down summary for a pirate crew full of idiots doesn't really help your point.
! Smoker's explanation of Seastone functioning as a solid form of the sea is the only account we have on how it is supposed to work so it is actually very, very significant. You are simply saying it is not because of your pre-assumption that Logias' default form is elemental and they always remain in that form except when being touched by Blackbeard, having to actively wanting to be tangible. I render this theory as false due to the facts we are given and logical reasoning following those. (If your theory was correct, as an example, Enel could turn into lightning and then emerge in the sea because it does not fully shut down his abilities, or else he could not be cut under water since he would still be able to turn into lightning, all of which is very unlikely.)
! Regardless that example, it just makes much more sense for Logia powers to function more like Zoans in that the elemental state can be regarded as a "transformation", an active use of the powers the fruit grant the user, which gets reverted when in contact with sea and Seastone due to the user's loss of control over it as well as the aforementioned sapping his strength and ability to make use of his powers.
!
! > The voice over the Den Den Mushi had to remind the guards pursuing Buggy to bring seastone cuffs while he was running around level 1 of Impel Down(chapter 526) so it's unlikely that he was ever detained using them. Escaping out of normal cuffs wouldn't be a problem since Buggy could just split off and let them fall, and only after they saw him running around splitting himself while punching out Den Den Mushis through their monitors would they know to bring seastone along with them.
EDIT: Plus they had practically no knowledge regarding Buggy in general at that point anyway let alone him being a Power User. It wasn't until the mass break-out and him being seen as co-leader alongside Luffy did they start digging around.
! This is true, but not directed at me, so I will just leave it like this. It is coherent with what I'm arguing.
@JaTaS
@JaTaS:
Before anything else, we must decide if being underwater is the same as being in contact with seastone, im going to assume it is because it feels right and as some people have said, luffy states that touching seastone is like being underwater, cant be more canon than that (even if you say that "feeling the same as" isnt proof of ACTUALLY being the same, i think that Oda had the intention of letting us know that seastone works just like the ocean, but in solid state, just as smoker says)
So, underwater = seastone
Agreeing with all of the above, especially Smoker saying that it does.
! > Luffy cant stretch himself but can be forced to stretch underwater (arlong park) + he is higly resistance to blunt attacks (not immune as seen by lucci fight and other cases*) = seastone attacks dont hurt him per se, they just exhaust him on contact, which may cause the illusion of damage (in marineford, smoker did hurt luffy not because of the seastone but because smoker is strong enough to hurt luffy a little through his high blunt resistance, luffy was also worn down from impel down and the rest of the war)
the same goes for buggy and his spliting ability, he wouldnt get hurt from a slash even if cuffed with seastone.
based on this, im gonna assume Paramecia Devil fruits are PASSIVE abilities, once eaten, people turn into what they ate**
logia + seastone = cant use powers (ace + cuffs)
! Another big agreement there.
! > this leads me to believe that Logia Devil Fruits are ACTIVE abilities, that means, that they must actually think about activating their abilities***.
! Same as above - agreed.
! > ** Luffy's and Buggy's are the simplest Paramecias, complex ones like Law's or Iva's are harder to explain. Im gonna use Law as an example cause im feel like the next chapter is gonna prove me right, if Law touches seastone, he will be too exhausted to use his ability anymore, however, every passive element of it will remain active, that means that if smoker hits Law with his jutte, Law's ROOM wont disapear (and his room is an essential part of the ability), techically, even if in contact with seastone, law wont stop being a puzzle man and iva wont stop being a hormone (wo)man, more examples include kuma, cuff him, throw something at his palms and i bet it would go flying still. while in logias, everything they do as to be done by themselves, thats why ace was a simple human when cuffed, because he was too exhausted to actually use his ability, not because seastone took it away
! Agreeing again, although I believe Law's "Room" would disappear when in contact Seastone or Seawater - whatever he's switched around however using "Shambles" would not. This is just what I believe though, it really depends on whether things are active or not, which is what you're arguing, too.
! Regarding Ace and therefore Logias, this is pretty much what I've been arguing above in reply to Vanessa, so again I agree with you.
! > *** Logia users can phase through nonhaki-attacks because their bodies have learned to turn into their elemental form as a reaction. just like blinking and breathing, you are constantly doing it because you body started doing it automatically, but it IS a controlled action no matter how unaware you are of doing it. if you are sleeping and someone pinches you with a needle, you WILL react and 'jump' away, now, if your own body knew it could just turn into something intangible, it would do it instead of 'jumping'.
! I guess I'm basically agreeing with this too, I'm not sure about how controlled and active these phasing abilities actually are, but this is definitely a valid theory. At least I cannot think of something that disagrees with it at the moment. =)
! > finally, blackbeards fruit has been said to be a logia, but different from all others by blackbeard himself, he cant become intangible,
! You will definitely get this response from others, but this is not exactly the aspect where the fruit is different since he becomes his element just as others become theirs. Since this element is darkness/gravity, instead of phasing through him, they get attracted to his "core"/center of gravity, which is (presumably) why he gets more damage - there is more force behind them.
! > actually, he says he takes more damage than he would, "why doesnt he deactivate his ability when taking damage?" you may ask, well, this is the part where i think my argument may fall apart but i can think of two explanations:
1- like a normal logia, his body reacts to attacks by activating the ability, even though it actually hurts him more.
2- Logias become intangible because they know they are in a battle, they kinda enter a 'battle mode'. They become intangible because its part of that activation of their fruit, well, Blackbeard activates his fruit to fight, unfortunately for him, he also activates the damage increase part with it.
So i think only blackbeard is actually capable of truly cancelling one's devil fruit powers
! Yeah, I agree that he is the only one to do so. It is a problem that it seems he cannot "turn off" his powers, but you pose two nice theories for that - I, personally believe that this is how his fruit is different. He is, after all a "gravity-man" and everything generally will get attracted to him and cause more damage. This is because his core is gravity, but it's possible that unlike other Logia's, it is an ability which would still be active if he was cuffed with Seastone or submerged in the sea, a "passive" ability if you so like which he cannot change the same as Luffy cannot change being Rubber.
! Alternatively, even if it was an ability deactivated by the sea and Seastone, I assume it is so deeply a part of the powers his fruit gave him that he cannot turn it off despite being a "controlled ability" as subconscious as e.g. digestion or heart rate control.
! I know that these theories don't hold that much water but it's all I can come up with for now staying consistent with everything else that makes sense. I also know this is the main argument for Logias ALL being their element at all times by default but that cannot be the case for two very significant reasons:
! 1. If other Logias, all being their elemental state by default, can turn themselves tangible at will Blackbeard should still be able to do "the same", that is turn off his ability - therefore Logias always being their element as default body state does not make a difference.
2. It requires Seastone to work differently than seawater, which is false regarding all the evidence and statements we have.
! So, Blackbeard's increased intake of damage is not alone fact enough to
a) assume Logias are their element in default form, always and b) assume Seastone works differently than the sea
but is instead an abnormality in itself that has to be explained through different reasons.
! @JaTaS:
! > Daz bones supa supa no mi lets him make steel blades out of any part of his body, however, it doesnt passively make his body steel, therefore, with cuffs on, he can be cut down.
Mr1-
Active: make steel blades out of his body
Passive: none.
! I have been thinking the same and agree that this makes much more sense than Vanessa's argument that he is always a "blade-man" and therefore always steel - similar to how Logias are not always an "Element-man" and therefore not always their "element", for the same reasons.
! Vanessa used him bleeding in Impel Down after being hit as an argument that Seastone has to be able to fully shut down his abilities - I am saying that he is bleeding because he was not made of blades at the time of being hit, which is why he bleeds - we do not even know as a fact that he's wearing Seastone cuffs, however this does not matter to the argument. He also bleeds after being cut by Zoro, which proves that he cannot always be blades and therefore steel.
! > about logias, we know that every fruit user (zoan, paramecia or logia) reacts the same to the ocean/seastone.
so why does luffy remain rubber while logias dont remain in their elemental state?
the only possible reason is that their default body is NOT their elemental one, if their default body was the elemental one, then you are indeed contradicting yourself.
! Thank you, that's exactly what I have been arguing for.
! > paremicia and logias behave the same to the ocean/seastone
ace is fire just like luffy is rubber
luffy stretches when cuffed
therefore
ace is still fire when cuffed
–---
now we know that the conclusion is false, that means one of the premises is false, and the only one that is not confirmed is the second, ace is not fire as luffy is rubber, ace is in solid state and only becomes fire when he wishes to. this explains why luffy stretches but ace doesnt phase out of the cuffs in one single coherent argument
! Good man. Studying philosophy myself among other subjects I like that you phrased it like this ;)
@Md-Martin
! @Md-Martin:
! > Remember, Seastone and water don't cause powers to be lost, but rather CONTROL to be lost.
Buggy is a chopped man, Luffy is a rubber man. They'll be like that until they die. However, my guess is that somebody like Buggy can't CONTROL his ability while in the sea, or cuffed with Seastone. If he pulled a Shiki and cut his hands off while cuffed, he would survive and not bleed out because his body is permanently changed to allow him to be cut. However the control, the ability to think "hands come off" and for his hands to come off because he simply thought it, that would likely be lost. Same with Zoans, they don't lose the ability to control their transform permanently, but they lose the control over their body's to transform. The ability is there, the process to activate the ability is gone.
If you look back in Enies Lobby, Franky knocked Chopper in the sea to negate his ability. If his ability was lost, then he would revert into Walk-Point, his original form. However, instead he reverted to Brain Point. Why? Because he lost the control(subconscious control at that) to remain in Monster Point.
! Very much agree with your points. However, I believe that another explanation for Chopper might be valid, that is Oda choosing "Brain Point" to be his standard form he transforms back to when unconscious/drained of energy (sea/Seastone).. This assumes an inconsistency from Oda's side though, whereas yours stays consistent, so I don't really want to go into this since it is not exactly relevant to the points I'm trying to make regarding Logias ^^
@Cymelion
! @Cymelion:
! > Can't Seastone - effect Logia differently from Paramecia?
From what I can gather it disrupts the power of the DF and saps the strength of the user - Hence why Smoker who is smoke could not get through the bars of the cage he was in with the SH's - Even though Luffy would remain rubber Smoker could not pass through.
Which makes me think that Logia's when exposed to Seastone get locked to a human form - no their power doesn't go away but they are locked to their base state. Paramecia's base state is still human but the seastone drains power and disrupts it which is why Luffy could BE stretched but not stretch himself. So Buggy might have been able to Cut himself but not seperate himself or so I think.
Zoans like logia's are locked to their Human state so any benifit would be negated.
! Well, the "locking to a human form" makes sense if we agree that being in an elemental state requires some form of activation of powers and control instead of it being their "default form", which is what I've been arguing for - this explains why they would stay in human form when being in contact with the sea or Seastone without it having to act differently on Logias than Paramecias, so it makes more sense to me and is more coherent with what the story tells us. Occam's razor ;)
@AppleSauce
! @AppleSauce:
! > 1. They are the same. In case someone brings it up again, Luffy and Robin were shown to activate their powers for a split second under water willingly. Robin goes further on to say that for a split moment its fine. However with seastone the Ability cannot be activated at all willingly.Though this can be debated since the Powers were activated when They were not in contact with the Sea when they activated their powers. So Yes Seastone and Being Submerged is the same thing.
! @AppleSauce:
! > 2. Like Cymelion said Logia's are affected Differently than Paramecias.
Logia's don't lose their ability but the seastone makes them Damageable/Touchable.
Luffy doesn't lose his ability but the Seastone makes him Damageable/Touchable.
Luffy can be stretched
Logias cannot Phase through (so here the affect is different.)So the affect on Logia's is Much greater because they remain in a damageable state.
!
Similar response as to Cymelion. The fact that Luffy can be stretched and Logias cannot phase through Seastone when in contact with it means that the phase through is more of an active ability at some stage rather than passive like Luffy's being rubber, much rather than "Seastone having a different effect - it makes much, much more sense. Less "exceptions". More congruence. Occam's razor.
@JaTaS:
we are all basically saying the same thing, there are just 2 points that must be understood before clarifying the whole Logias/paramecia+seastone/ocean:
1- is seastone and being submerged the same for users? (i personally think it is)
2- are Logias affected the same way as paramecias by seastone/ocean? (here too, i think they are)
Again, you are correct, in my eyes, leading to my conclusions and arguments as I've stated above. Glad we're on the same page.
Please, this is my take on all of this, if you want to continue this argument then please quote specific parts you agree or disagree with since this has gotten rather lengthy - my apologies for that. So far, I believe, this makes total sense overall - tell me if it doesn't ;)