General Devil Fruit Discussion

sag d seb

Something that has been bothering me for quite a long time is the devils fruit research book. Its mere existence creeps me out a little bit. Why? you may ask… well basically because in a world where information is power (as shown by the incident in Ohara) having this kind of data input is definitely an advantage. So far, it has only been stated that the book gives info about each fruit, but who did it? with what purpose? A research centre? the WG? or maybe someone else.....:getlost:

The more I think about it the more I realize I know nil . We do know the after effects of eating the fruits depending on their kind and their consequences but their existence is still a mystery. I would really like to meet the person who wrote the DF research book... who knows maybe it could be related to the will of D in an extrange way.

Willpower

@Nycprodigy:

You're honestly making yourself sound stupid. Why wouldn't a sword be able to hurt a logia with haki if a fist and arrows can? They're all physical.

Stuipd? c'mon people you aren't even sure about what you say , I'm here to give my theories not make fun of myself

and Psychosis gave you a good example,why didn't mihawk kill buggy with his sword? & howx about Akainu? don't tell me that whitebeard commanders don't use haki? you say that rayleigh could cut kizaru? seriously did he even put a scratch on him? what I'm saying here is that haki with sword can't do any "damage" yes you can stop him "defend yourself" but you can't attack him with a sword. I think the best way to fight logia if youre a swordsman is using guns or things that don't cut like fists and stuff….

Juvar

@Willpower:

Stuipd? c'mon people you aren't even sure about what you say , I'm here to give my theories not make fun of myself

and Psychosis gave you a good example,why didn't mihawk kill buggy with his sword? & howx about Akainu? don't tell me that whitebeard commanders don't use haki? you say that rayleigh could cut kizaru? seriously did he even put a scratch on him? what I'm saying here is that haki with sword can't do any "damage" yes you can stop him "defend yourself" but you can't attack him with a sword. I think the best way to fight logia if youre a swordsman is using guns or things that don't cut like fists and stuff….

Buggy - because Buggy's fruit prevents him from being cut. Haki or not doesn't make a difference here, as the guy above explained for the first time reasonably - he splits on contact, end of discussion.

Akainu - he WAS hurt, he said that himself - doesn't mean he get's OHKO'd or something.

And Kizaru was cut by Rayleigh's sword, with Haki, so there's no discussion here either.
@akagami7:

akagami7

@Willpower:

you say that rayleigh could cut kizaru? seriously did he even put a scratch on him?

yes, he did

MohMoo

did someone jump on the bandwagon a bit late?

:s i never thought about Buggy's powers before reading this thread. Cool! :D

Willpower

@akagami7:

yes, he did
[qimg]http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8793/onepiece51208.jpg[/qimg]

Hmmm,that kizaru's picture surprised me…well I didn't notice that so I didn't know that logia user can be hurt by sword.
Ok then,Buggy is the exception here ^^

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Juvar:

Buggy - because Buggy's fruit prevents him from being cut. Haki or not doesn't make a difference here, as the guy above explained for the first time reasonably - he splits on contact, end of discussion.

Akainu - he WAS hurt, he said that himself - doesn't mean he get's OHKO'd or something.

And Kizaru was cut by Rayleigh's sword, with Haki, so there's no discussion here either.

yeah,apparently kizaru got a wound from rayleighs sword…and this is what I needed to know.When I was reading that part I probably was about to sleep or something,that's why it wasn't saved in my memory.Thanks for the discussion

Refii

Where are you guys getting all these hallucinatory drugs from?

By definition, Haki negates devil fruit powers, Buggy would be cut by a haki attack, just as Luffy and Kizaru take damage.

Diamond is not a force of nature, neither is sand or light. (Jozu is not a logia though)
Logias are create, become, control; Pokemon physics do not equal forces of nature.

Juvar

@Refii:

Where are you guys getting all these hallucinatory drugs from?
By definition, Haki negates devil fruit powers,

It doesn't, it lets you hit the "real body". That's different.

Buggy would be cut by a haki attack,

No, because his real body is that of a split-man - therefore he splits on impact of a sword, whether imbued with Haki or not.

just as Luffy and Kizaru take damage.

true.

Diamond is not a force of nature, neither is sand or light. (Jozu is not a logia though)

Light is so damn well a force of nature, we had that debate - go back a page or two.

Logias are create, become, control;

is what we have SEEN them do, the classification for a Logia is still to be a "force of nature" or something along those lines. No debate.

Pokemon physics do not equal forces of nature.

That doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Cyclone_Baroness

@Strawhat:

We don't know. But look, Mihawk's cut him into small pieces really fast, right? I doubt Buggy has such insane reflexes, so it probably means that his fruit automatically saves him from any cut, Haki or not. He splits before the sword connects with his body, which means that even if you use Busoshoku Haku, you still won't be able to cut him because you can't connect with his body.

Unless Mihawk can't use Busoshoku, which is rediculous, he probably tried cutting him using that Haki when he cut him for the second time.

Oh don't get me wrong. I was just trying to bring up some points against the guy I quoted, but I think Buggy's DF is automatically triggered when he gets cut. I asked about anyone using Haki against him because I don't think it has ever occurred. Haki might interfere with it…but eh I'm not getting into that debate again. That was like a solid 20 pages of arguing...

Akahige

I think the automatic splitting of Buggy's ability would be disabled by Haki, but he would be able to combat that by consciously splitting himself in anticipation of an attack.

Castelmore

@Akahige:

I think the automatic splitting of Buggy's ability would be disabled by Haki, but he would be able to combat that by consciously splitting himself in anticipation of an attack.

Wouldn't he automatically split AND take damage ? Like Akainu took damage from Marco and Vista… Well, maybe Akainu became lava before getting hit.

Willpower

Even now we don't know exactly what can haki do & what it can't do .. Oda didn't give us the full explanation,well he told us that haki is usefull against Logia but, how? if you hit a logia user with haki is it the same as hitting a non-logia body?
Maybe we will get the answers in Caribou's fight? or after entering the new world…

Nycprodigy

@Willpower:

Stuipd? c'mon people you aren't even sure about what you say , I'm here to give my theories not make fun of myself

and Psychosis gave you a good example,why didn't mihawk kill buggy with his sword? & howx about Akainu? don't tell me that whitebeard commanders don't use haki? you say that rayleigh could cut kizaru? seriously did he even put a scratch on him? what I'm saying here is that haki with sword can't do any "damage" yes you can stop him "defend yourself" but you can't attack him with a sword. I think the best way to fight logia if youre a swordsman is using guns or things that don't cut like fists and stuff….

Miwhawk wasn't aware of buggy's ability and didn't need to use haki ( if he even has it) unecessarily. And what about akainu? Oda wasn't there to show the whitebeard commanders using haki and that had nothing to do with what i said. Rayleigh didn't put a scratch on kizaru because ray's sword hit kizaru's light beam sword -_- I also didn't mean to say you sound stupid but what gave you the thought that anything physical like a fist or an arrow can't hurt devil fruit userS( logias) when imbued with haki. It's ridiculous to think otherwise if you ask me.

Refii

@Nycprodigy:

Rayleigh didn't put a scratch on kizaru because ray's sword hit kizaru's light beam sword -_- I also didn't mean to say you sound stupid but what gave you the thought that anything physical like a fist or an arrow can't hurt devil fruit userS( logias) when imbued with haki. It's ridiculous to think otherwise if you ask me.

THATS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID FFS

Screw this, I give up, Steel and Psychic are a force of nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_phenomenon
No wait, earthquakes and ocean currents are forces of nature, Whitebeard is a logia, fuck you Oda you dick.

Nycprodigy

@Refii:

THATS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID FFS [qimg]http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8793/onepiece51208.jpg[/qimg]

Screw this, I give up, Steel and Psychic are a force of nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_phenomenon
No wait, earthquakes and ocean currents are forces of nature, Whitebeard is a logia, fuck you Oda you dick.

thx for that pic actually it helped prove my point ^_^

Juvar

@Refii:

THATS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID FFS [qimg]http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8793/onepiece51208.jpg[/qimg]

Screw this, I give up, Steel and Psychic are a force of nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_phenomenon
No wait, earthquakes and ocean currents are forces of nature, Whitebeard is a logia, fuck you Oda you dick.

Again, Whitebeard has not an earthquake fruit but a tremor fruit - that has been answered in an SBS.
He is NOT a Logia because he can not turn himself into one, he only creates vibrations. That's it. I don't get why so many people have to bring this up again and again when it's truly not that hard to understand.

Cyclone_Baroness

@Juvar:

Again, Whitebeard has not an earthquake fruit but a tremor fruit - that has been answered in an SBS.
He is NOT a Logia because he can not turn himself into one, he only creates vibrations. That's it. I don't get why so many people have to bring this up again and again when it's truly not that hard to understand.

I hear you on this lol.

He'd have to be a paramecia type DF for it to even make sense.

I just think of it this way. He's classified as a paramecia type, vibration man because if he was an earthquake man it would be practically impossible to have shown turning into an earthquake. Oda most likely want Logias to be something that could easily be found in nature, a true force. He wanted to show all types of natural distaster/element DFs, but earthquakes wouldn't make as much sense if you had to have them follow the same rules Logias are known for. Like turning into their element. How would you draw someone as an earthquake? It's basically just vibrations and shifting of the plates beneath the earth. So the method that makes more sense is to have a vibration man nearly as strong as a Logia.

Refii

@Nycprodigy:

thx for that pic actually it helped prove my point ^_^

Sarcasm? Faggotry? I dunno, this discussion is for stoners, I'm just drunk.

Willpower

@Nycprodigy:

Miwhawk wasn't aware of buggy's ability and didn't need to use haki ( if he even has it) unecessarily. And what about akainu? Oda wasn't there to show the whitebeard commanders using haki and that had nothing to do with what i said. Rayleigh didn't put a scratch on kizaru because ray's sword hit kizaru's light beam sword -_- I also didn't mean to say you sound stupid but what gave you the thought that anything physical like a fist or an arrow can't hurt devil fruit userS( logias) when imbued with haki. It's ridiculous to think otherwise if you ask me.

Haha :D ! actually,that picture didn't help you because you came here too late (after I changed my opinion) & it seems that you were wrong before that picture because you too, didn't know that happened…other thing is I never never never never said that haki doesnt affect logia users haha I said "swords don't" so does that make me stupid? without knowing that kizaro got hurt of course ...
Well this is my last post about the whole sword/logia/buggy topic

Refii

A swamp, is not a force of nature, find me any scientist in the world that will say otherwise.

http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/natural-disasters/forces-of-nature.html?section=t
First result on google, forces of nature: EARTHQUAKE.
Logia's are NOT forces of nature.

Willpower

Refii +1
Logias are related to nature:wind,fire,swamp,volcan…
So they're elements of nature

Psychosis

People seem to be taking this "force of nature" a little too to the letter.

"Force of nature" is more… a brief summary of what Logia abilities entail...and then abridged from there.

I know I'm repeating myself, but let's review.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2648-10/one-piece/chapter-541.html
Here we see Crocodile's ability summarized as:
A sandman, Crocodile is able to manipulate sand and turn his body into it.
So attributes of Logia include: 1) Ability to manipulate one material, substance, or element. 2) Turn one's body into that same material.
You don't have to read too far to see the third attribute.
I choose this one. http://www.mangareader.net/103-2654-7/one-piece/chapter-547.html
Other examples exist, but here is clear that Logias can 3) create the same material point 1 and 2 differ to.

Other attributes given to Logias, such as phasing attacks through them, are just common associations. Crocodile and Ace could do this because they were made of sand and fire, respectively, but Blackbeard can not because he is darkness/gravity, which makes his Logia atypical from other Logias but still following the 3 rules of Logia.

Hell, if there were a fucking RICE Devil's fruit that followed these three rules, I'd back it as a Logia.

Points of debate:
Whitebeard: Whitebeard's fruit does not fulfill requirement 2. Therefore it is Paramecia.
Mr. 1: The Dice-Dice fruit encompasses his body, but does not extend beyond that. If he were a Blade-Logia, he could create and control blades over a large area. He is paramecia.
Caribou: He is capable of turning into swamp, extending the swamp beyond his physical boundary, and control the swamp he has created. He is Logia. Furthermore, though he is unfazed by attacks, they do not phase through him, but are absorbed into his body, which is unique to his Fruit, similarly to Blackbeard.

Any other disputes about these? I'd love to give it a go.

akagami7

@Refii:

A swamp, is not a force of nature, find me any scientist in the world that will say otherwise.

Do you know that what scientist consider forces of nature and what Oda consider forces of nature are different things? right?
Logias becomes you in a force of nature.
Shirohige creates earthquakes but he doesn't become an earthquake, so he isn't a logia although earthquakes are forces of nature.
Rubber, Venom, Diamonds, and Steel are part of nature but aren't forces of nature, since they don't do anything by them own
Swamp, otherwise, sinks things byits own

Castelmore

@Nycprodigy:

thx for that pic actually it helped prove my point ^_^

It just proved that Rayleigh did hit Kizaru…
And why are you all talking about forces of nature ? Who cares if Logias aren't really forces of nature ? They're logia, that's all. Logias include forces of nature like fire and light (well, light is special...), AND materials like mud, sand, ice, magma, etc.

Urouge

A lot of this discussion is because people are hung up on the word "force" even though it's just a translation.

IDC

is there some one that has the df power of water? how would that work

Juvar

@IDC:

is there some one that has the df power of water? how would that work

There isn't and probably won't be because it wouldn't exactly work. Simple.

IDC

well it could not like turn into water but like munipulate it without phisycally touching it

Juvar

@IDC:

well it could not like turn into water but like munipulate it without phisycally touching it

Guess that actually could work, as a Paramecia, by giving the user the power to become extremely hydrophobic/hydrophilic, similar to Kidd's magnetic powers, but with water… But it's unlikely to be seen. The closest thing we have is Gyojin Karate, and in my eyes, works much better.

IDC

yeah exactly but i dont think it will appear either

Psychosis

Well, we could have a water logia, just not sea water.
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if one never showed up.

Urouge

I hope that if a water logia shows up, it's renowned as the hardest fruit to control in the entire world. Like the user could kill themself if they aren't careful.

mr.french

A steam/vapor logia seems more likely to show up than a water logia doesn't it? And it sounds more interesting too. I could care less though.

Oksa

Smoker's DF can be considered as a steam logia. How would you even draw steam if not like Smoker's smoke?

IDC

It would probably just be a clear outline

narutoisbetter

This post is deleted!

Nycprodigy

@Psychosis:

Well, we could have a water logia, just not sea water.
Still, I wouldn't be surprised if one never showed up.

I THINK it was the 2nd movie where there was a female water logia fruit user but she wasn't important and only gave one instance of her power i believe but don't take my word for it

akagami7

@Nycprodigy:

I THINK it was the 2nd movie where there was a female water logia fruit user but she wasn't important and only gave one instance of her power i believe but don't take my word for it

it was an unknow liquid, not water, besides it's noncanon.

OnePieceIsGoodOrNot

This post is deleted!

Monkey D

@akagami7:

it was an unknow liquid, not water, besides it's noncanon.

It was the silk fruit (toro toro no mi)

Strawhat Chan

I don't see any reason why there can't be a water Logia.

Water only affects DF users when like half (or more) of their body is submerged in the water. Becoming a mass of water is different, isn't it?

mcdreamy

@Strawhat:

I don't see any reason why there can't be a water Logia.

Water only affects DF users when like half (or more) of their body is submerged in the water. Becoming a mass of water is different, isn't it?

Being able to control water would be more impressive than being a water logia. It would be a godlike ability, beyond that of the admirals. (Blood bending from avatar: the last airbender is coming to mind right now…)

akagami7

@mcdreamy:

Being able to control water would be more impressive than being a water logia. It would be a godlike ability, beyond that of the admirals. (Blood bending from avatar: the last airbender is coming to mind right now…)

doesn't karate gyojin control water?

iLoveMugiwara

@akagami7:

doesn't karate gyojin control water?

Yes it does. It controls the water down to even the molecules in the air.

akagami7

@iLoveMugiwara:

Yes it does. It controls the water down to even the molecules in the air.

I know, my point is that the ability that mcdreamy described already exists, although it isn't a devil fruit.

Refii

A water Logia would kill him/herself.

A water paramecia would be fine.

At least based on the rules Oda has placed on his universe.

Juvar

@akagami7:

I know, my point is that the ability that mcdreamy described already exists, although it isn't a devil fruit.

And is what I said already. Like… at the top of this page. It's fine though, don't blame yourself for skimming. I do it all the time. :ninja:

themick

@Juvar:

Again, Whitebeard has not an earthquake fruit but a tremor fruit - that has been answered in an SBS.
He is NOT a Logia because he can not turn himself into one, he only creates vibrations. That's it. I don't get why so many people have to bring this up again and again when it's truly not that hard to understand.

This is the entire point!!!! The guy i was debating with said all you had to do was be a force of nature and you were a logia. You are saying he is not a logia because he cant become, create, control. So you are supporting my position that anything can be a logia as long as it can become, create, control. How do you not get this? Is it because you just read what i post without deading what i am commenting on?

mcdreamy

@akagami7:

I know, my point is that the ability that mcdreamy described already exists, although it isn't a devil fruit.

Ehhh…it exists but they have to touch the water to do it. To control water without being physically in contact with it is far more awesome than fishman karate. You'd basically be the god of the ocean.

Juvar

@mcdreamy:

Ehhh…it exists but they have to touch the water to do it. To control water without being physically in contact with it is far more awesome than fishman karate. You'd basically be the god of the ocean.

Point here, Jinbe hitting the air in one of the latest chapters - he created some sort of shockwave that even affected the water in Luffy's body, which he most definitely had not physical contact with. So, there you go.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@themick:

This is the entire point!!!! The guy i was debating with said all you had to do was be a force of nature and you were a logia. You are saying he is not a logia because he cant become, create, control. So you are supporting my position that anything can be a logia as long as it can become, create, control. How do you not get this? Is it because you just read what i post without deading what i am commenting on?

No no no I was reading through everything, but the point is even if you can "become, create and control", that still wouldn't automatically make you a Logia, since ODA's definition involves "forces of nature" - which I agree is a rough and therefore not accurate translation, but it works. All the Logia's we've been introduced to are arguably "forces" of nature, so I see no problem with that. And since they are Logia, they are able to "become, create and control" - NOT the other way around.

You're RIGHT though saying that having a fruit related to nature, even a "force", does not automatically make a Logia either. It's a concept following Oda's perception of which "elements" are considered as a "force", and which aren't. I put force in quotation marks just to point out that the word is not accurate. Discuss!

Edit: It still fits, Whitebeard is per se not a "force" of nature, so everything is perfectly following the same train of thought.