Chapter 938: A Woman's Secret
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it seems the magazine map isn't in the official translation so here it is
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Huh… Is Hyori the traitor? I don't have a full moment to expand on my idea but maybe someone can shoot it down before I get back.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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That cover is gruesome.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Huh… Is Hyori the traitor? I don't have a full moment to expand on my idea but maybe someone can shoot it down before I get back.
I don't think. We knows she is truly in the run from Orochi and we know Kaido is king and trying to get rid of the Kozuki. There is no reason to believe she would reveal how big of a target she is if not to seek genuine help.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Huh… Is Hyori the traitor? I don't have a full moment to expand on my idea but maybe someone can shoot it down before I get back.
I don't think. We knows she is truly in the run from Orochi and we know Kaido is king and trying to get rid of the Kozuki. There is no reason to believe she would reveal how big of a target she is if not to seek genuine help.
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Huh… Is Hyori the traitor? I don't have a full moment to expand on my idea but maybe someone can shoot it down before I get back.
Another reason I'd call it unlikely is that as far as we know, Kinemon or the Minks never made contact with her. In which case she wasn't even aware Momonosuke was alive until a few days ago, so there's no way she could have sent Jack and his men to Zou. That had to be the work of either a traitor Mink who witnessed the arrival of Raizo, or one of the time travelers who has been a snitch all along.
We can't rule out that she had to do with the discovery of the crane sign, however - willingly or not, there was this scrap of paper next to her body that Kyoshiro may very well have shown to the Shogun.
Hyori could still be one of several traitors, but popular support is apparently going to require a "genuine" Kozuki who stayed behind in Wano at some point. She could hardly fit that bill while being a traitor to her clan.
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Okiku is the traitor.
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@'T€:
@$;3972066']Okiku is the traitor.
What's your reasoning, because I don't see how that works at all, even if we're just talking about the message being leaked.
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Chapter comparisons time! A lot of the differences this week are pretty minor; despite this chapter having a lot of dialogue, most of it was basically the same between the three versions.
- The Jaimini's Box name of the chapter is "Her Secret". Mangastream and VIZ both go with "A Woman's Secret".
- In MS, Zoro notes that his injury is "before our battle", implying his battle with Gyukimaru. In both JB and VIZ, though, he's talking about being injured so soon before the big battle with Kaido and Orochi and their forces, since he says "the final battle" in JB, and "Not when the big battle's so soon!" in VIZ.
- In the scanlations, Kin'emon notes that the connection between the moon tattoos and the coded message was discovered. In the official translation, he states that the enemy has "learned the meaning of" those two things.
- In JB, Drake angrily responds to Hawkins's needling by saying that Hawkins is the reason their targets escaped. In MS and VIZ, he says that Hawkins let them get away, too. (Basically pointing out that they're both to blame and not just him, rather than pushing the blame onto Hawkins.)
- When Kyoshiro's men tell him that he should be careful at the funeral tomorrow, he responds with "What are you saying?" in both scanlations, but instead says "Wish they'd mind their own business." in the official version.
- When Tonoyasu enters the building that the SHs and co are in, he asks "How's everyone doing?" in MS and calls Shinobu "my dear Shinobu", which he doesn't say in the other two versions. When he calls Nami a goddess, she just tells him to come in in the MS and VIZ versions but says "Come and sit with us" in JB. And Usopp responds to this with just "Hey." in the scanlations, but with "Oh, come on." in the official.
- In the scanlations, after stating that Zoro suffered terrible wounds while helping them, Hiyorisaki (lulz) says that she doesn't know how to repay him; in the official translation, she doesn't know how to express her regret. Zoro's reply in the scanlations is that his foolishness/naïvety got him hurt, but in the official version, he says it was his "lack of skill".
- What Hiyori says about Zoro when noting that he's from overseas, and his reply, are a little different in all three versions. In MS, she says that Zoro "looks like" a Wano samurai, and says that he doesn't seem to be "a bad..a bad person", like she hesitated before finishing the thought. And he replies "You don't seem too sure about that." In JB, she says he "acts like" a Wano samurai, and starts to say he seems to be a bad person before verbal-backspacing to say "don't seem to be", and he answers "Don't stutter!" Finally, in the official, she says "dress like" one: "that is, you look like a no-good–uh...noble man" (as in, correcting herself), and he responds "I heard that."
- An MS-ism; they put Momo's surname and given name spoken by Hiyori in the wrong order, and miswrote it as "Kozuke". :ermm:
Hidden:
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Another suspiscious thing that comes to mind is, how does Tonoyasu suddenly know Shinobu and Kanjuro's identities when they both seem surprised that he knows them ?
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What's your reasoning, because I don't see how that works at all, even if we're just talking about the message being leaked.
Wait and watch. I am not speculating. I deduced it.
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Another suspiscious thing that comes to mind is, how does Tonoyasu suddenly know Shinobu and Kanjuro's identities when they both seem surprised that he knows them ?
What makes that suspicious exactly? It simply means that they don't recognize him.
@'T€:
@$;3972072']Wait and watch. I am not speculating. I deduced it.
Ok…
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I want that cover to be canon.
As for Komurasaki being Hiyori, I don't buy it. If at least she was being her usual self, but this super nice Komurasaki reeks too much of her "poor girl routine" used to trick guys into helping her. And if she is doing her thing, I can't take anything she is saying at face value.
Why she would lie to Zoro and pretend to be Hiyori, that's a different thing altogether. I can think of some possibilities, but the one I am pending towards the most is Toko being Hiyori (Jabra mentioned the possibility of Komurasaki actually being Hiyori, but she actually being bitter towards Momonsuke and wanting to take his place as the Kozuki heir. I would love that too). -
Another suspiscious thing that comes to mind is, how does Tonoyasu suddenly know Shinobu and Kanjuro's identities when they both seem surprised that he knows them ?
They are important since they worked for Oden while he is a regular citizen.
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What makes that suspicious exactly? It simply means that they don't recognize him.
Ok…
First things first, everyone is damn sure that the message and the symbol got leaked by Kyoshiro after he attacked Komurasaki. He was even seen holding the paper. But it is a red herring. It is not so simple. Otherwise the traitor wont be spoken about and that too two times, once in Wano and once in Zou. If anything, Kyoshiro silenced Komurasaki by attacking her after she reveals that she is a Samurai's daughter. Also he was protecting her from the Shogun. That explains why she is alive. Hence Kyoshiro is a good guy. And a good guy with such an important role would be none less than one of the Nine Red Scabbards, i.e Denjiro by deduction.
Then for the traitor plot to come to a conclusion, the revelation must be shocking or it is of no use. And greater the trust, more impactful the revelation. Hence, the traitor must be one of the Nine red Scabbards. You can also make the case for other lessser Samurai like Shinobu but she saved the SH's from Kaido's Boro Breath. If she was the traitor, she could have just saved herself. The Tengu is also ruled out since he is living in isolation and was raising Tama. I doubt he has anything to do with this plot line. I dont think it is Yasu since one of the Nine Red Scabbards being the traitor is more impactful than some new character like Yasu, going by Oda's style.
Now let me list the Nine Red Scabbards in the order of their appearance.
1. Kinemon
2. Kanjuro
3. Raizo
4. Inuarashi
5. Nekomamushi
6. Okiku
7. Ashura Doji/Shutenmaru
8. Kawamatsu
9. Denjiro/KyoshiroKinemon, Kanjuro and Raizo are ruled out since we know them from prior arcs and they have been on the run in different islands. They were with Momo and did not cause him any harm
Inuarashi and Nekomamushi are also ruled out since we saw their loyalty in Zou.
Ashura Doji is also ruled out since he is a thief and refused Kaido's recruitment request.
Kawamatsu is in the prison for years and barely talked to anybody and hence ruled out.
Denjiro is also ruled out for the reasons stated in the first paragraph.Then that leaves us with Okiku. Okiku was in Wano alone and was in speaking terms with Urashima. She may even have Raizo's Vivre Card that Jack obtained to reach Zou. She may not be bad but I think it is more like Nami and Robin's scenario. One more thing:
She wasn't shown bowing to Lady Toki in the flashback (typical Oda hint)And by researching some Japanese folklore, I found some thing interesting.
"Hosokawa Katsumoto, the lord of Himeji Castle, has fallen seriously ill. Katsumoto's heir, Tomonosuke, plans to give a set of 10 precious plates to the shōgun to ensure his succession. However, chief retainer Asayama Tetsuzan plots to take over. Tomonosuke's retainer, Funase Sampei Taketsune is engaged to marry a lady in waiting, Okiku. Tetsuzan plans to force Okiku to help him murder Tomonosuke." -
They are important since they worked for Oden while he is a regular citizen.
He calls them Kanjuro-kun and Shinobu-chan. It is not just a regular citizen recognizing famous figures.
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You are kind of moving goalposts now. A change in perspective is very different from a change in allegiance, Violet and Pudding did change their perspectives, because surprise! it is called character development!
Handcock went from doing wathever she wanted to blindly following Luffy, Violet went from strong distrust of pirates to beliving in the crew, Pudding went from always listenning to Big Mom to following every Sanji's order
abra said it's weird seing Hiyori suddenly being so nice and genuine when she was such a manipulative person before. I pointed to 3 examples were I consider Oda did the same and it was not for a future twist.
I communicated poorly or you misread my meaning. Either way sorry and I hope that clears it.
However Violet’s situation is no different from Kinnemon, who also went from denouncing pirate scum into trusting a group of pirates to save his country. When did Kinnemon allegiance change exactly, because I’m pretty sure everyone in the world missed that happening. If not, then why are you giving Violet a different judgement, when they had pretty much the same development on this topic of trust?
More instantaneous and for reason less strong motive.
Sanji and Kinemon were forced to cooperate for a decent stretch of time. And Kinemon became an ally at the lake after Sanji almost killed himself diving to save his life.
Violet switched after watching Sanji's brain be pink and barely knowing him.
Pudding situation in WCI is not that different from Katakuri btw, biggest difference is Pudding fall figuratively while Katakuri fall literally. You could perhaps argue their loyalty to Big Mom is maaaybe swayed, but a actual change in allegiance is a definite NO. or are you also one of those people claiming Katakuri would leave BM Pirates after WCI arc, but was ultimately proven wrong Kata was named as potential next captain instead?
I never cared much for Dogtooth future. I just find it funny or shitty his punches were and didn't like suddenly being an honarable fighter.
Pudding didn't vaguely let Sanji escape. She actively helped him despite and during their time together was completely under his charm
Trust “Hiyori” all you want and call me a skeptic, but I am not trusting any girl/woman that seemed too good to be true after WCI where it resulted in a scene of Sanji sobbing pathetically in the rain and missing memories in the end.
That might be our point of difference. From WCI you take Sanji being tricked by Pudding, I take Sanji changing her with a compliment.
I could see Toko being Hiyori( I doubt) but I have no doubt she is genuine in being a good person. I don't expect some grand plan about wanting to be queen under Kaido or I have some secret motive to manipulate that samourai. The save was genuine and the ask for help was genuine.
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Funny story, I spent a decent chunk of my morning feeling weirdly negative/pessimistic about Wano (expect the Big Mom plot which is 11/10), but lo and behold I actually really liked this chapter. Something about the character interactions really clicked for me, especially that bit with Shinobu thinking about silencing the captured Heart Pirates. That really helped drive home the desperation that the Wanoese feel in a way I haven't felt in a while.
I like the plot point about the leaked info too. I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
I haven't read that much discussion about whether or not Komurasaki is lying about being Hiyori, but for now I'm going to take her at face value. I don't have the energy for another "Is Pudding lying?" debate (And I'm one of those people who liked Pudding).
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Wait, it's Monday already and still no second page. Since when apforums became empty?
On topic: Hiyori is probably the same person with Komurasaki.
Your signature has exceeded the maximum size limit of 100 kb for this forum. Please read the rules.
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The stuttering bit where Hiyoarasaki back pedals and calls Zoro noble…. I'm kinda stuck there because I feel it was Toko that stuttered and then Hiyoarasaki switched the attention from Toko to herself. As for her motivations, I feel like she's not being entirely forthcoming and is being just a tad sweeter than necessary. I don't think she is lying about being Hiyori though. Zoro's strength seems to have impressed her and I think she feels the need to 'trick' him into fighting for her but soon will learn that her usual tricks don't work and we will have an emotional scene filled with tears where she discards her komuarasaki persona and begs for help; either that or she stands tall as a samurais daughter and demands to be fought for.
Speaking of Zoro, it's really interesting that he views fighting differently from Luffy. Luffy says there's no cheating in pirates fighting (Kata+Flampe) but Zoro prefers 'honourable' and fair fights.The different creeds make it more organic.
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Wait, it's Monday already and still no second page. Since when apforums became empty?
On topic: Hiyori is probably the same person with Komurasaki.
short chapter, nothing really new to discuss, and most of the discussion happened in the spoiler thread already.
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On topic: Hiyori is probably the same person with Komurasaki.
why probably ? They are officially the same person
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@'T€:
@$;3972081']And by researching some Japanese folklore, I found some thing interesting.
"Hosokawa Katsumoto, the lord of Himeji Castle, has fallen seriously ill. Katsumoto's heir, Tomonosuke, plans to give a set of 10 precious plates to the shōgun to ensure his succession. However, chief retainer Asayama Tetsuzan plots to take over. Tomonosuke's retainer, Funase Sampei Taketsune is engaged to marry a lady in waiting, Okiku. Tetsuzan plans to force Okiku to help him murder Tomonosuke."You're right, that is rather interesting. However, the rest of the theory is based on a lot of assumptions, and there is an issue with it:
Otherwise the traitor wont be spoken about and that too two times, once in Wano and once in Zou.
That's the thing. Kiku, Shinobu, the allies who were left in Wano while Kin and co. left: they didn't know the details about Raizo being on Zou, iirc? They did know that Momo and those three retainers were going off to recruit allies, and those allies would certainly have included the Minks on Zou. But it was after they left Wano that they shipwrecked and got separated, and only Raizo ended up on Zou, while Kin, Kanjuro, and Momo went elsewhere. And yet, when Jack arrived on Zou, he was certain that Raizo was there, and only Raizo; he clearly didn't have any suspicions of Momo or Kin or Kan also being there. Which stands to reason that the traitor specifically told him that Raizo was there, which Kiku, Shinobu, etc. couldn't have known (unless I'm remembering something wrong here?). The people who could have were:
- The rest of the Heart Pirates, who were on Zou waiting for Law: well, Shinobu did bring up this possibility, lulz. But while I could possibly buy that Bepo/Shachi/Penguin inadvertently gave up the secret of the moon tattoos and symbol papers by accidentally giving one of the papers to the wrong people, I find it extremely unlikely that they betrayed anybody on purpose (which is almost certainly the case for the Zou betrayal).
- All of the Minks on Zou, who knew they were sheltering Raizo.
- Kin, Kan, and Momo, who promised to meet Raizo at Zou.
Granted, if the people who spilled the beans about the plan in Wano had nothing to do with the Zou incident, then yeah, that opens up more possibilities. But the mystery of how Jack knew so much about Raizo been on Zou has been a question since that arc; seems coincidental that there would be a different traitor in Wano who has nothing to do with that.
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@'T€:
@$;3972081']First things first, everyone is damn sure that the message and the symbol got leaked by Kyoshiro after he attacked Komurasaki. He was even seen holding the paper. But it is a red herring.
Can't speak for everyone, but I never believed it was him to begin with, especially after this chapter. I wouldn't even really call it a red herring, as the chapters don't really make it seem that he's actually aware of what the connection between the coded message and the tattoos.
It is not so simple. Otherwise the traitor wont be spoken about and that too two times, once in Wano and once in Zou. If anything, Kyoshiro silenced Komurasaki by attacking her after she reveals that she is a Samurai's daughter. Also he was protecting her from the Shogun. That explains why she is alive. Hence Kyoshiro is a good guy. And a good guy with such an important role would be none less than one of the Nine Red Scabbards, i.e Denjiro by deduction.
Him being an ally is one (IMO unlikely) thing, but I completely disagree about him being a Scabbard. In Ch. 934, Kanjuro and Shinobu both admitted that Kyoshiro was unknown to them. Shinobu in particular has been in Wano all this time, so it'd be rather silly that she wouldn't be able to recognize a Scabbard when Kyoshiro is such a prominent figure in the capital.
Then that leaves us with Okiku. Okiku was in Wano alone and was in speaking terms with Urashima. She may even have Raizo's Vivre Card that Jack obtained to reach Zou.
As has been pointed, the issue with accusing her of being the traitor is that the Beast Pirates were specifically looking for Raizou. Not samurai in a plural sense, just him alone. Seeing as how Kiku could not possibly know that only Raizo made it to Zou due to the shipwreck, the Beast Pirates have no reason to not make a general assumption that any of the samurai could be present on Zou. As for the presumed Vivre Card, whoever it ends up belonging to, it can't possibly be Raizo's. If the Beast Pirates had that, then they would've just used it to directly find him.
Lastly, even if we want to separate the two instances that seem to have hinted at there being a traitor (Beast Pirates reaching Zou vs. the plan being leaked on Wano), it's still extremely unlikely to be Kiku, as she is currently isolated with Chopper's group en route to Udon as Orochi's men have begun capturing people. The only way she could realistically leak the plan without anyone knowing is for her to have done so the previous day, which of course wouldn't make any sense.
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You're right, that is rather interesting. However, the rest of the theory is based on a lot of assumptions, and there is an issue with it:That's the thing. Kiku, Shinobu, the allies who were left in Wano while Kin and co. left: they didn't know the details about Raizo being on Zou, iirc? They did know that Momo and those three retainers were going off to recruit allies, and those allies would certainly have included the Minks on Zou. But it was after they left Wano that they shipwrecked and got separated, and only Raizo ended up on Zou, while Kin, Kanjuro, and Momo went elsewhere. And yet, when Jack arrived on Zou, he was certain that Raizo was there, and only Raizo; he clearly didn't have any suspicions of Momo or Kin or Kan also being there. Which stands to reason that the traitor specifically told him that Raizo was there, which Kiku, Shinobu, etc. couldn't have known (unless I'm remembering something wrong here?). The people who could have were:
I assume the certainty about raizo was due to Doffly informing him about only Raizo disappearing(he was the one that caused them to separate) and Kaido knowing their allies other allies from 20 years on Zou.
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@BellisarioFaith Great reply narrowing down the possibilities of who might be the traitor. This is assuming that the Raizo incident and the ankle mark incident are connected by one traitor.
1. I would like to narrow down the possibilities further and suggest that the minks are not the traitor's in this scenario. My possible reason:
a. Most of them were seen almost killed by Jack. This includes Inuarashi, Nekomasushi, Wanda, alot of the musketeers, and guardians.
b. The mink specifically knew where Raizo was being hidden. Case and point Raizo mentions that injured minks came to delivery him meals. But Jack didn't know where Raizo was, only that he alone landed on Zou.This narrows it down to either the Heart pirates or Kinemon/Kanjuro.
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This narrows it down to either the Heart pirates or Kinemon/Kanjuro.
The Heart Pirates, especially Bepo, have no reason whatsoever to do that, their endgame is to defeat Kaido to begin with. Even just the fact that Shinobu's freaking out and accusing them makes it even more obvious that it could never be them. Not to mention that there are only really three relevant members (Sorry Jean Bart fans) to begin with, and those same characters have been friends with Law since they were kids.
Kinemon can be safely crossed off for a multitude of reasons, like this entire plan being his idea to start with.
I've seen growing suspicion for Kanjuro due to him having been alone in Dressrosa, but IMO that doesn't really add up either since we saw that he was able to hide and avoid being turned into a toy, so I don't see where there'd be any opportunity for him to snitch, willing or otherwise. Wouldn't explain how the Beast Pirates found Zou either.
I assume the certainty about raizo was due to Doffly informing him about only Raizo disappearing(he was the one that caused them to separate) and Kaido knowing their allies other allies from 20 years on Zou.
Doflamingo lost track of both Momo and Kinemon as they inadvertently made their way to Punk Hazard. I doubt Oda would reveal that the Beast Pirates were so certain simply because Doffy made a correct guess. This also unfortunately doesn't answer the mystery of what Vivre Card they used to reach Zou. I guess it's always possible that this mystery may not have one streamlined answer though. Depends on how complicated Oda wants to make this, assuming there is a traitor of course.
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Chapter comparisons time! A lot of the differences this week are pretty minor; despite this chapter having a lot of dialogue, most of it was basically the same between the three versions.
- The Jaimini's Box name of the chapter is "Her Secret". Mangastream and VIZ both go with "A Woman's Secret".
- In MS, Zoro notes that his injury is "before our battle", implying his battle with Gyukimaru. In both JB and VIZ, though, he's talking about being injured so soon before the big battle with Kaido and Orochi and their forces, since he says "the final battle" in JB, and "Not when the big battle's so soon!" in VIZ.
- In the scanlations, Kin'emon notes that the connection between the moon tattoos and the coded message was discovered. In the official translation, he states that the enemy has "learned the meaning of" those two things.
- In JB, Drake angrily responds to Hawkins's needling by saying that Hawkins is the reason their targets escaped. In MS and VIZ, he says that Hawkins let them get away, too. (Basically pointing out that they're both to blame and not just him, rather than pushing the blame onto Hawkins.)
- When Kyoshiro's men tell him that he should be careful at the funeral tomorrow, he responds with "What are you saying?" in both scanlations, but instead says "Wish they'd mind their own business." in the official version.
- When Tonoyasu enters the building that the SHs and co are in, he asks "How's everyone doing?" in MS and calls Shinobu "my dear Shinobu", which he doesn't say in the other two versions. When he calls Nami a goddess, she just tells him to come in in the MS and VIZ versions but says "Come and sit with us" in JB. And Usopp responds to this with just "Hey." in the scanlations, but with "Oh, come on." in the official.
- In the scanlations, after stating that Zoro suffered terrible wounds while helping them, Hiyorisaki (lulz) says that she doesn't know how to repay him; in the official translation, she doesn't know how to express her regret. Zoro's reply in the scanlations is that his foolishness/naïvety got him hurt, but in the official version, he says it was his "lack of skill".
- What Hiyori says about Zoro when noting that he's from overseas, and his reply, are a little different in all three versions. In MS, she says that Zoro "looks like" a Wano samurai, and says that he doesn't seem to be "a bad..a bad person", like she hesitated before finishing the thought. And he replies "You don't seem too sure about that." In JB, she says he "acts like" a Wano samurai, and starts to say he seems to be a bad person before verbal-backspacing to say "don't seem to be", and he answers "Don't stutter!" Finally, in the official, she says "dress like" one: "that is, you look like a no-good–uh...noble man" (as in, correcting herself), and he responds "I heard that."
- An MS-ism; they put Momo's surname and given name spoken by Hiyori in the wrong order, and miswrote it as "Kozuke". :ermm:
Thanks as always for those. I think an important one is also Zoro's stomach growling. It was very clear in Both MS and Viz but not on JB.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@'T€:
@$;3972081']
Now let me list the Nine Red Scabbards in the order of their appearance.
1. Kinemon
2. Kanjuro
3. Raizo
4. Inuarashi
5. Nekomamushi
6. Okiku
7. Ashura Doji/Shutenmaru
8. Kawamatsu
9. Denjiro/KyoshiroKyoshiro stated that if they really showed up he'd love to cross sowrds with them and they don't know about him. He is clearly not one of te original retainers. Shinobu didn't even recognize him.
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Yeah, honestly, all of these replies/points you guys have made is basically the problem I'm at: that even after narrowing it down in my previous post to who could have possibly known about it (and as desa said, maybe add Doffy…but did Doffy know about Kanjuro or what happened with him, and know for sure not to include him as a person who could be there? And like Blissed said, there's still the question of how Jack got there in the first place. Hell, he got there twice.), none of the answers really seem to make that much sense.
- Like hiper05 pointed out with the Minks, we know at least some of them knew exactly where on Zou Raizo was hidden. Even if a mole in the Mink tribe was somebody who wasn't told about that for some reason, if they really wanted to help Jack and betray Raizo, they could have just followed somebody who did know Raizo's location when they were going there to find out. And yeah, there's the fact that they themselves would have been endangered by the fighting, and all of them were poisoned, right? If there was one random Mink traitor who avoided being poisoned, someone probably would have noticed.
- With the Heart Pirates, there's the _sub_jective reasoning that, like Blissed said, at least the Main Three who were just captured have been friends with Law for over 10 years and have no conceivable reason to betray him. Then _ob_jectively, the same thing above about being on the island in the middle of the fighting applies to them too (seems pretty dumb to leak the info to Jack when you're stuck there and can't just escape beforehand), and they were also poisoned. Plus, we don't even know how much the Heart Pirates knew about the Raizo thing: as much as the Minks (that he was there and where he was)? That the was there, but not where he was? Didn't even know he was there at all? Could make guesses here, but nothing concrete either way.
- Between Kin'emon, Kanjuro, and Momonosuke, Kin and Momo make absolutely zero sense at all, and Kan not much more either, other than having slightly more opportunity. Especially since, would any of them even know Jack the Drought? Know how to get into contact with him, or even that he's the one that they should be contacting? It seems like there's some kind of disconnect here in general, in that Jack and his men were so sure about Raizo being there, but Orochi just treats the thought of all of them (Kin, Kan, Raizo, Momo) being alive as something he feels adamant about thanks to Toki's prophecy and his paranoia about her powers, not "I'm 100% sure that at least some of these people are alive because Raizo is definitely alive, Jack was hunting him down earlier."
Right now, we-the-readers likely don't have all the information we need to figure it out yet. This chapter and 936 bringing up the fact that there's a leak could just be continuing to sow the idea that there's somebody who's been spilling info–intentionally or not--so we don't forget about it. After all, I hadn't really thought about the Zou traitor idea for quite a while until just earlier, when making the previous post. Momo's weird comment about meeting Roger that he made in Zou was something that raised eyebrows, but people mostly just had to move on from or make unsatisfying theories for that didn't really make sense because we didn't have much other info about that, but then we had our brains tickled again several times early in Wano arc with all the remarks about things that were "20 years ago", before that finally paid off and was explained. Hopefully that's what'll happen with this weird Zou situation too.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Thanks as always for those. I think an important one is also Zoro's stomach growling. It was very clear in Both MS and Viz but not on JB.
Of course, no problem! That's true; sometimes for whatever reason, my brain skips over sound effects when I do these, haha.
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I really like the cover pages with Crocodile. First the one where he's sheltering the dog from the rain, and now this cute number with the birds (and what a creative use of his powers). I hope there's more of this in the future.
It really is a shame the official release couldn't include the map, even in the blog section of the site. It's not only a useful resource, and not only a good way to pad out an otherwise short chapter, the labels there are the only thing that make the Komurasaki/Hyori connection obvious. I have a feeling it or something similar to it will make it in the back of volume 93 just like the Alabasta and Enies Lobby maps did before it, so it's not like it'll never be seen. And on the topic of Komurasaki and Hiyori. I just… jeez Oda. This is exactly why you need to diversify your female characters. You undermined the whole damn reveal because a different outfit and hairstyle were enough to make people wonder if she was a different character. It's not just an aesthetic issue anymore, it's literally in the way of the storytelling. Hopefully we'll start to see at least a little improvement after this whole thing.
The traitor plot is definitely building up to a reveal soon. I agree with the posters saying that Kyoshiro finding the note is a red herring. If he figured it out and was fully loyal to the shogun, Komurasaki would actually be dead. The possibility of Law's people talking is also a red herring. Because this plot goes back to Zou, it almost definitely has to be a mink, but I don't think we have enough information to say which one yet. Of course, Law's people were also at Zou, but I think the story will have more weight if its someone actually part of the dukedom. At least there's one Jump author remembering to advance his traitor subplot anyway (cough Horikoshi cough).
On the Zoro bits, I can understand how people looking at the spoilers were confused about his sudden collapse, but I'm willing to accept all the poison he's been eating as an explanation (even if he is the guy who ate razor blades back on Punk Hazard). I do hope there's a decent explanation for Gyukimaru's mercy after everything else he did though. I also hope for it because I'm a fan of his look in general. Zoro being with Komurasaki and O-Toko made for some great character interactions. Toko stealing Usopp's toad oil is a hilarious touch. Komurasaki is acting pretty different here to how she did before. Probably one of these personas is fake, and I hope it's the nice one because I think the idea of a femme fatale trying to act cute for Zoro and seduce him while him remains totally oblivious really funny. It'd be a great parallel to how Sanji got suckered by Pudding and was totally unaware of her genuine bad side.
And that's it. What a short chapter. Volume 93 will either have to go to 12 chapters (assuming all the remainder are full length) or pack in the extra pages to reach the usual minimum. To be honest, for the sake of better installments and more full-feeling and regular volumes (I'm praying the extra time needed to make the page count doesn't make for another three-volume year right now), I'd have taken the break a week earlier if it meant the chapters on either side of it stayed at the normal length.
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Yeah, honestly, all of these replies/points you guys have made is basically the problem I'm at: that even after narrowing it down in my previous post to who could have possibly known about it (and as desa said, maybe add Doffy…but did Doffy know about Kanjuro or what happened with him, and know for sure not to include him as a person who could be there? And like Blissed said, there's still the question of how Jack got there in the first place. Hell, he got there twice.), none of the answers really seem to make that much sense.
We know that:
- Doffy and/or his crew is aware of all their names: Momo in Ch. 714, Kinemon in Ch. 730, and Kanjuro in Ch. 740. They know what they all look like as well.
- In Ch. 714, Jora sought out Momo specifically on Doffy's orders, so he's clearly aware of his value to Kaido/Orochi.
- Kanjuro was captured, and at some point sent to the Scrapyard. He avoided the process of being turned into a toy through using his Devil Fruit ability. At the very least, Gladius is aware of his disappearance (Ch. 740), so presumably Doflamingo would be as well.
Another big issue with it being Kanjuro is that he had so many opportunities to betray them, most notably when he used himself as a decoy so Momo and Kinemon could escape in the first place.
And yeah, there's the fact that they themselves would have been endangered by the fighting, and all of them were poisoned, right? If there was one random Mink traitor who avoided being poisoned, someone probably would have noticed.
While she did fight, the only notable Mink that wasn't seen throughout the poison and torture part was Carrot, only appearing when Chopper began tending to everyone with little to no injuries. But given what we know about her, the most damning being that she's never even left Zou before, its a rather weak argument.
It seems like there's some kind of disconnect here in general, in that Jack and his men were so sure about Raizo being there, but Orochi just treats the thought of all of them (Kin, Kan, Raizo, Momo) being alive as something he feels adamant about thanks to Toki's prophecy and his paranoia about her powers, not "I'm 100% sure that at least some of these people are alive because Raizo is definitely alive, Jack was hunting him down earlier."
Yes, I have definitely noticed that the Beast Pirates don't seem to be in sync with Orochi at all when it comes to this topic. Wonder what that's about.
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A Mink traitor was in discussion by Inuarashi, but what if one of the countless smile-users has a good scent/sense of smell/tracking? Zou isn't an Island, it's a living creature and if it has a certain smell, that whole discussion about a traitor is pointless.
As for how Jack was sure that Raizou was on Zou, I have no idea.
According to Orochi the bodies of the time-Jumpers couldn't (obviously) have been discovered in Oden-Castle's ruins. And if one combines the knowledge about Toki's powers and the missing corpses, one could come to the conclusion that the missing ones mde a time-jump. But neither Jack, Orochi or Kaidou could have known about the Jumpers' whereabouts.If it's neither the heart pirates, the minks or Kanjurou, I'd think about someone less involved like traitorous former WB-crewmembers, but that doesn't add up to the fact that Raizou landed on Zou just a few months ago. Got to be a Mink if you think about it.
Oh, and do we have a proper name-fusion for our newest couple?
Like Zorumasaki?
Or Roronyori? -
That might be our point of difference. From WCI you take Sanji being tricked by Pudding, I take Sanji changing her with a compliment.
Exactly, agree to disagree. I’m still going to be on the fence for this Wano equivalent for the foreseeable future.
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The only Mink not on Zou while Jack assaulted it was (probably) Kawamatsu (if he is a Mink, which many fans believe).
He might be in a worse state than Inu and Neko, cause he was Held captive in that prison for over a decade.
Maybe he spilled the beans after enough torture. About Raizou heading to Zou (if Raizou ending up on Zou was even the plan to begin with).
After all, Jack demanded only Raizou. He didn't look there for Momo, Kin, or Kanjurou on zou.
And if they never intented to stay at Zou or leave anyone behind there, this again makes it a pretty "recent" info ( =Raizou being on Zou) only another Mink could know about. -
What if it's actually a Flea Zoan Tontatta hiding in Wanda?
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What if it's actually a Flea Zoan Tontatta hiding in Wanda?
I won't rule out anything, cause this mystery is like why the gate of justice opened to Buggy.
Since the suspect of a traitor now occured twice in the Story, it has to be revealed somewhen during this arc.Kanjurou being the traitor would make for a stunning Twist though.
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^I misread "hiding in Wanda" as "hiding in Wakanda" in that post
edit: in the post 2 posts up since someone posted at the same time as me
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why probably ? They are officially the same person
Officially Komu said she's Hiyori. Is she? Most likely. If she is not lying, she could be an evil Hiyori. If she is lying, the door to find a 'good' Hiyori is still open. Both chances are interesting imo but I like the first one the most.
And maybe the only reason to think/feel, as readers, she's lying is because we expect a good Hiyori and we've seen a nasty malevolent Komurasaki.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why Komurasaki confessed to Zoro she is Hiyori? Did she knows who Zoro is? Well, the three sword style captured Komu's attention in ch 937. So it could be she was aware there's a guy with such a sword style around. And on the other hand the alliance still doesn't know where Hiyori is... So, the alliance doesn't know about her location but she could know about the alliance movements... It's seems to me another hint to the fact she's an ally of the traitor.
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Does anyone not think Law's guys are going to embarrass him when they get rescued? It would be worth them betraying him just to see the look on his face.
At least Gyukimaru got the message to bugger off there instead of keeping on attacking like a cheap punk. Would have been better if he hadn't started acting that way to begin with but maybe he'll feel bad about it later and not make Zoro have to work too hard to get back the sword.
The Straw Hats seem to have a buttload of allies this arc but their circumstances and opposition feel so much more overwhelming than they did in Whole Cake Island.
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Officially Komu said she's Hiyori. Is she? Most likely. If she is not lying, she could be an evil Hiyori. If she is lying, the door to find a 'good' Hiyori is still open. Both chances are interesting imo but I like the first one the most.
And maybe the only reason to think/feel, as readers, she's lying is because we expect a good Hiyori and we've seen a nasty malevolent Komurasaki.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why Komurasaki confessed to Zoro she is Hiyori? Did she knows who Zoro is? Well, the three sword style captured Komu's attention in ch 937. So it could be she was aware there's a guy with such a sword style around. And on the other hand the alliance still doesn't know where Hiyori is... So, the alliance doesn't know about her location but she could know about the alliance movements... It's seems to me another hint to the fact she's an ally of the traitor.
I was wondering why Hiyori/Komurasaki immediately spilled her secret to Zoro. Maybe because she never dared to make contact to a possible ally? Did she knew about the ankle sign?
And now a strong foreign Samurai appears, right at the time her brother should return. You can interpret her thougths and actions towards Zoro as desperation to finally meet Momo and the others again.
We already had our top ten anime betrayal with Pudding last arc.
“As I stand out here in the wonders of the unknown at Hadley, I sort of realize there’s a fundamental truth to our nature: Man must explore!” – David Scott, Moon
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I think Komurasaki and the yakuza boss faked the whole scene to make her look like a “good guy” to the straw hats. Now they’re infiltrating through Zoro. They hired the samurai zoro defeated to pretend to chase her.
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I was wondering why Hiyori/Komurasaki immediately spilled her secret to Zoro. Maybe because she never dared to make contact to a possible ally? Did she knew about the ankle sign?
And now a strong foreign Samurai appears, right at the time her brother should return. You can interpret her thougths and actions towards Zoro as desperation to finally meet Momo and the others again.
We already had our top ten anime betrayal with Pudding last arc.
That's the point. Why someone who succesfully keep a secret during 20 years in the middle of a wild and very dangerous context… suddenly... confess that secret to (cough) an stranger.
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I think Komurasaki and the yakuza boss faked the whole scene to make her look like a “good guy” to the straw hats. Now they’re infiltrating through Zoro. They hired the samurai zoro defeated to pretend to chase her.
I would probably be more amenable to that if not for Toko being there. She can't keep her damn mouth shut so she'd screw the whole thing up at some point if fake-Hiyori would ever slightly let on that she's not who she says she is. Or if she started acting secretively or suspiciously like reporting back to someone mysterious or insisting on going with someone despite it not being a good idea. Even if just for comedic effect.
Plus how is someone being a nice, noble warrior a definitive link between them and the rebels? If that leads to a dead end she'll be liable for having such crappy judgment and wasting all that time on a wild goose chase. Also it's a poor idea to sacrifice the life of a powerful assassin (if he was pulling his punches to try and do a fake-out 'take a dive' kind of thing it would have been obvious) for such a scheme. If the guy had just gone down more easily it would be more believable that they were infiltrating Zoro's circle but Zoro tore that guy down all the way. Hard to believe anyone would agree to die for a plan like that when the alternative is far easier and less likely to cause anyone to be gravely harmed.
That's the point. Why someone who succesfully keep a secret during 20 years in the middle of a wild and very dangerous context… suddenly... confess that secret to (cough) an stranger.
It feels like she only just started hearing rumors about her brother resurfacing after so long, and what with the rumblings of rebellion going on, it's not hard to imagine she's got a sense that everything is happening for a reason, like a destined thing or something and Zoro's probably one of the harbingers of that.
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Kanjuro is not the traitor! Leave Brittany alone!!!
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Officially Komu said she's Hiyori. Is she? Most likely. If she is not lying, she could be an evil Hiyori. If she is lying, the door to find a 'good' Hiyori is still open. Both chances are interesting imo but I like the first one the most.
And maybe the only reason to think/feel, as readers, she's lying is because we expect a good Hiyori and we've seen a nasty malevolent Komurasaki.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why Komurasaki confessed to Zoro she is Hiyori? Did she knows who Zoro is? Well, the three sword style captured Komu's attention in ch 937. So it could be she was aware there's a guy with such a sword style around. And on the other hand the alliance still doesn't know where Hiyori is... So, the alliance doesn't know about her location but she could know about the alliance movements... It's seems to me another hint to the fact she's an ally of the traitor.
the problem with an evil Hiyori is that the banquet scene loose a bit of its sense to me. Pudding being evil made sense, she played with the strawhat. but at the banquet Kamurasaki didn't know some of them were here. Also Kyoshiro didn't know about the pamphlet so why would she has hidden that fact to him if they are partners of crime.
Of course I could be misleaded by Oda who wants me to believe the obvious and certainly Hiyori can resent her brother for having the easy way but it doesn't play with her role of a daughter of a great samourai.As for the Zoro confession, it is a bit weird indeed. But she knows Kinemon is back and she knows there are some foreigners who helped him.
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the problem with an evil Hiyori is that the banquet scene loose a bit of its sense to me. Pudding being evil made sense, she played with the strawhat. but at the banquet Kamurasaki didn't know some of them were here. Also Kyoshiro didn't know about the pamphlet so why would she has hidden that fact to him if they are partners of crime.
Of course I could be misleaded by Oda who wants me to believe the obvious and certainly Hiyori can resent her brother for having the easy way but it doesn't play with her role of a daughter of a great samourai.As for the Zoro confession, it is a bit weird indeed. But she knows Kinemon is back and she knows there are some foreigners who helped him.
How do you know Kyoshiro didn't know about the pamphlet?
Komu's being aware that some of the alliance were in the banket is not necessary. Basically she could have played the act only to be able to go away of Orochi.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Oda have been showing us Kyoshiro holding the flyer in his hand with a big grin ... The panel kind of says us: "-Kyoshiro: I know what's running here".
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Anyway, since we don't know for sure and are intrigued, ... goood work, Oda!!!
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Basically she could have played the act only to be able to go away of Orochi.
But why would she do that now? What she did in the palace came before her confession to Zoro and was even more dangerous. So the Zoro scene is not that uncalled for, imo. It could be an act to play dead and "join" the rebels though, I give you that.
“As I stand out here in the wonders of the unknown at Hadley, I sort of realize there’s a fundamental truth to our nature: Man must explore!” – David Scott, Moon
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But why would she do that now? What she did in the palace came before her confession to Zoro and was even more dangerous. So the Zoro scene is not that uncalled for, imo. It could be an act to play dead and "join" the rebels though, I give you that.
Dont know but how about this: because she knows the alliance plan is going ahead now and to be at Orochi's side is no use since Kyoshiro and her plan on taking Orochi's throne.
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Well, Kyoshiro wanting to be Shogun instead of the Shogun was my theory all along, but he's so utterly relaxed about anything in the latest chapters that I don't know what to think about him
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Regarding how the beast pirates got to Zou, maybe they made a vivre card (or how it's spelled) of Raizou without his knowledge. Isn't a nail or hair basically all you need from the person? It's the only way i see that doesn't involve a traitor.
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Regarding how the beast pirates got to Zou, maybe they made a vivre card (or how it's spelled) of Raizou without his knowledge. Isn't a nail or hair basically all you need from the person? It's the only way i see that doesn't involve a traitor.
Then they wouldn't need to ask them where he is, they'd just go there directly.
