@desa I share the same opinion.
Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes
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@zeltrax225 i think you misread my comment, it came from a place of absolute admiration and amusement.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing
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@Alfiere I did and the part where you called him a troll and laughed at his attempt to do his fanbase right really sold me on your admiration for the guy.
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I'm of the opinion that Togashi's health should come first and if he can only put out 10 chapters every three years, then so be it, but it seems like there are other options, like the Kishimoto --> Boruto model, that could get the story out there if that was his top priority. I've long since given up on that actually happening so I've just accepted the anime ending as the true one and haven't read the last 2 batches of chapters.
I do respect Togashi though, for putting out what he can, when he can, knowing how difficult it is to draw manga.
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@zeltrax225 said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
The anime also ends at a part that is pretty conclusive. Not for everyone and every storyline but by the time you are there, you can make the decision whether to continue with the manga (where you get your cliffhanger).
Might just check it out to see if I vibe with the series(?) then. Thanks.
There is continuity but every arc feels like a different genre (in a good way) and it's not exactly like One Piece where the narrative makes you feel obligated to reach the end in order to deliver a satisfactory experience.
I know like VERY broad strokes, enough that things are pretty different every arc.
-not chunin exams
-the ant arc where everything gets super wordy (i think)
-video game island!i also know gon is like, trying to be a hunter like his dad but then you have wild shit with killua (assassin clan) and kurapika (red eye clan). meanwhile leorio is....um, apparently NOT 35 when the other three are like 13, a med student that wants to cure his friend's blindness?
idk he always felt like a plain jane compared to the others unless togashi cooked up something wild for him.
Power explanation only gets really complicated in this arc (my own personal opinion) and it is somehow easier to digest than JJK despite being more complicated.
i barely know JJK but i always thought it was some Bleach-Naruto hybrid, evill cursed spirits and stuff but everyone can fisticuff
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@andre
I this this new approach (Boruto model) is too dependent on the wishes of the author. We have people like Fujimoto and Aka that said they want to solely write their series - Aka already doing that. I think it's a part of a new generation of japanese people relationship with work post their financial bubble break.Togashi is from an older generation, with a different relationship to work and that grew up idolizing people with even worse dedications to the craft such as:
But more particular to Boruto case, I don't think Kishimoto wanted to go back to the Narutoverse. Boruto was created to keep the franchise milking and he gave blessing for other people write on somethings he planned. He only got back to the manga after he failed tremendously with his space samurai series.
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@MetaMario said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
idk he always felt like a plain jane compared to the others unless togashi cooked up something wild for him.
Well, he cooked something wild for Leorio but you never get to imagine how much different from the rest of things it is.
On powers, I thing nen is a tier above stands because stands have innate abilities the user learns to manipulate while with nen you create than from scratch.
So if you okay with stands, you should fare well with nen. -
I kinda get stands for the most part, Araki did lose me a LITTLE bit when part 6 started to transition away from all the stands all being humanoid ghost things (like FF being a stand in themselves) but i'm also not familar with 7 beyond lol.
And I guess getting the obvious out of the way - Hisoka the creepy clown dude and the OH MY RUBBER NEN / bungee gum memes.
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@pariston_hill said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
But more particular to Boruto case, I don't think Kishimoto wanted to go back to the Narutoverse. Boruto was created to keep the franchise milking and he gave blessing for other people write on somethings he planned. He only got back to the manga after he failed tremendously with his space samurai series.
I knew that first part about the typical mangaka attitude, I didn't know the specifics of Kishimoto's involvement with Boruto. Thank you for that. And yeah, I figured that if Togashi thought that was an option for telling his story, he would already have done it.
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@MetaMario Those have been around for a while. There was a gun stand, comic book stand, sun stand, in part 3, in part 4 there was a lock stand, pylon stand. There's Narancia's aerosmith, a bullet stand and fishing pole (and lots more) in part 5. There was also a baby that had a stand that made her invisible in part 4. He's been doing all this stuff for a while.
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Then there was even Anubis, who was a Stand in the form of a sword that was fully sentient.
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I read a post somewhere before that says that imagine if you were a painter and had spent your entire lifetime on an artpiece. Your health starts to fail you and as an artist you'll have serious second thoughts about getting someone else to come in and finish the piece for you. It might be due to ego, it might be because an artist style (he is an artist) is his own and can not be duplicated (look at berserk and how it really is just not the same), it can be that you lose control, it can be that if you want to change things you'll have to trouble others (japanese culture), it can be that he holds the work too personally to do that. Case in point, the work is no longer yours alone now. I get the whole consumer-creator relationship and that there is some obligation there to deliver for the fans but people also need to understand that he didn't intentionally NOT want to deliver but he wants to do it on his own terms and standards.
And I think that is, at the very least, worth respecting.As an artist myself, I find it hard to even engage in A.I to help my work to meet tight commercial deadlines even if the receiving end would be fine with it. But if I do it, I can tell myself that it is part of the business and because I think of it as a business, it doesn't bother me that much.
I'll actually prefer to not publish or just burn my own personal project that I'm passionate about, that I spent years to hone my skills to achieve and with a lot of my emotions invested in, if I have to use A.I or to get someone else to do it for me.
It's not that he doesn't care enough, he cares too much. The cynical might call it an ego thing or stubbornness or that he outlived the principles of the past but I believe there's merit in that that you can truly only see as a creator. You get your content that is one of the many that you might remember but for the man he has to hurt himself to do it. To insist on him getting others to finish for him is really just for the consumer's own satisfaction at the expense of a bedridden man further hurting himself. Not physically, sure. But it will be a tough pill to force him to swallow.
If he doesn't want to do it, he doesn't have to do it.
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@andre There's also the fact that Kishimoto is more editorial/JUMP compliant as compared to Togashi who fought tooth and nail for more control over Hunter and for the ability to write what he wants. JUMP would love to get their fingers on HxH and the ability to use it to churn out content but Togashi, at least from what you can find online, has his own standards and refuses to let them do what they want.
YYH's ending the way it did had a lot to do with how terrible their relationship was and how he was burnt out and had to continue a series because of how popular it became. He couldn't write what he wanted.
Ironically despite how he was influenced by the previous generation of mangaka(being a workhorse and sacrificing for the company), he's also the one guy(and probably the ONLY one) who fought to, and is able to, retain that degree of creative/business control over his own work. He got fed up and decided no fucking way is he letting them have full control of his ship any more than he wants. This is a good clue as to why he doesn't want others to write/draw the series for him too.
I don't want to state the obvious here regarding editorial and corporate control but there is no shortage of good series that has been ruined because of said editorial/corporate influence. I'm not saying they aren't necessary but it came at a cost.
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As someone who isn't an artist that comes across as slightly egomaniacal. Passing the torch when you can't go on but still can/want to contribute seems like the natural order of things to me. Where as i'd rather see it all fall apart than relinquish any control sounds like such a...I dunno, childish mindset? But then again, not an artist, and probably just can't relate to the feelings of a creator.
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@wolfwood it's really a matter of perspective. But personally, I want it to be mine and have full control over what I create. There's artist collaboration (e.g Gucci/Jojo) but you rarely come across artpieces where it is credited to two person at once. The creative business is egosticial and this isn't restricted to just manga or art.
If an example would help, Walt Disney would likely be turning in his grave now if he looked at what the Live action adaptation is doing to his beloved movies. He loved Snow white alot and would fight nail and tooth back then for his version to succeed. Another example would be the absolute state of the MCU/Marvel comics where there is no one vision.
I understand that what people are expecting of Togashi is nowhere near that level of relinquishing his control and he has enough power to make sure his vision remains if he let someone else do it for him.
But think of it like the difference between crafting a table from scratch versus assembling one. A craftsman would look for the best type of wood and won't even mind going through the trouble of searching for it. He would have spent years learning and grinding the skills to know how to make good tables and then apply(or break) those rules to make the table that can only be made by him. Take this scenario and compare it to let's say, IKEA or furniture shops where tables are mass-produced and can be easily DIY like a toy kit. That's the difference here. Its the water 7 ship event in a nutshell, is it the same ship if the hull? is different. It's not. In this case, consumers like you and me might not be able tell the difference but the author/creator, the one who has been steering the ship and knows everything about it will be able to tell the difference. And it will hurt.
I'm not saying that what he chose is the right answer because I believe there really isn't one (well, there is if all you want is more chapters at the expense of whatever he feels, then sure, he should automate everything and just write). But at the very least I wanted to shed some light on how an artist would see things and only hope that will help others grasp some perspective from the creator's end.
There's also the legal/business side of things to consider. Maybe he does want to hand it to someone but hasn't found someone he can trust to be able to continue his vision after his passing. And maybe he did find someone but he then becomes worried about whether said indiviual would then decide or either be swayed to do something the equivalent of Boruto/DB Super for HxH. Something that he would absolutely detest. So it's really not that simple an issue too. It's not a matter of whether that will actually happen but the possibility is there and the worry follows.
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@wolfwood You disrespect the spirit of the craft, it's akin to killing Domingo Montoya again.
I wouldn't be surprised if a spaniard swordsman and a giant turk came looking for you. -
I don't think an ongoing story is all that similar to the painting analogy. Presumably, a painting hasn't been shared with the public for years and years as its being completed. Maybe it has, but that's not typical. We do have examples of stories being continued by other authors in various mediums, including manga. Sometimes it has gone well, sometimes it has not and sometimes it doesn't happen and we're just left with eternal mysteries.
As far as Togashi and editorial, that is one side oft he ball, but the other is his relationship with his readers. At the end of the day, authors owe their readers nothing, but they do have a relationship with them that can be fractured. I think Togashi cares about this relationship and has shown that he does want to share his story with the fans and I think most fans are understanding of Togashi's situation. At the same time, though, when I encourage people to read Hunter X Hunter, I always tell them to stop after the election arc and part of me feels bad that I'm telling people to not read the stuff that Togashi is putting so much effort into at the moment, but that's where I am.
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@andre I stand with the author owns us nothing side of things.
I don't think "finishing" a story just because a lot of people are invest is "a good thing".
I don't expect Grum to finish Asoiaf, but I'm happy with I already received.
I think Mostly Harmless is a great ending for Hitchhiker's series, Douglas Adams didn't.I don't get this parasocial fixation on "ending a series" like it's a batch that you did rather enjoying the series as it goes on and on and on.
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The painting analogy is from the artist's perspective, not the consumer's. Paintings are also never really completed and good artists know that. They are only framed and sold when considered satisfactory but never perfect. In this case, Togashi knows that he can't finish what is his perceived masterpiece. He wants to be the one who finishes it. Even if there is a whole gallery viewing the whole process from start to finish, it doesn't change that fact. You can apply this to any other medium too because it is the same for creators who are invested in their work. Take a chef operating a fine-dining restaurant. The restaurant still sees customers but the chef still works on his craft and updates the menu/quality in accordance with his skill. Sure, a story is vastly different from fine dining but the perspective of the creator remains the same. Like how different artists apply different strokes onto a canvas and how chefs spend hours creating the right seasoning for their own recipes. It's the same for manga.
I'm starting to come off as pretentious about this but you've paid my table example no mind so I'm going to assume that's the one thing you want some elaboration on. It is a technicality you chose to deliberate on but replace it with anything else and it's the same. I use painting because it is art and is much closer to this medium. Domestically, HxH has had its own exhibition in renowned spaces because of the respect Japanese industry gives to the medium. That's not to say HxH is fine art or a museum piece but once again, the same creator mindset applies. It is only different from a consumer/business standpoint and if that is where you are coming from, then absolutely. But that's not my point.
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@zeltrax225 I was admiring the craft of his trolling.
First of all, I have all the respect for someone like Togashi that cares for his wellbeing at least to the extent of not working himself to death and doesn't feel the need to come up with weird excuses to cover for it, while not necessarily forsaking his vision or passion for the work itself.
That said, him going all "ah I know perfectly well how to end this, and my favourite option is the one that you won't probably like. If I live to see it through, you'll have to deal with it, if not, too bad, please have this second choice final scene and be content with it" is very amusing to me, even considering the very serious implications of it.Curiosity has its own reason for existing
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@Alfiere I would have assumed that the reasonable take to have is that, when considering his health and his own understanding of his morality, is that he wanted to at least leave an ending if he does pass. And one that is done in goodwill.
But calling it trolling or him intentionally messing with his fanbase is...out there. I don't know man. I think it is possible to see it as a justification, "you all could have gotten something better/controversial/special if not for my health" and of course that is going to be true, it was always going to be true whether he dropped that interview or not (due to his health). I'm going to guess that your point is that if he's not going to drop the 1-3 endings he might as well not bring it up in the first place which was the whole point of my reply, he knows he can't do it but he wanted people to know that he could have done it if not for his health.
I don't necessarily see the ill intent/trolling in that and I don't know how you could see it that way either. I'd like to think that your view is fair but on the more cynical side but I'll have to do some mind gymnastics to think that way.
I'm guessing you didn't like it because the alternative would be accepting whatever was written in the interview as the only ending that he is capable of. Maybe that would have been acceptable to you because then the whole point of it being a convenient ending that exists only for the sake of closure would be lost to everyone reading it.
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@pariston_hill said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
I don't get this parasocial fixation on "ending a series" like it's a batch that you did
What is there not to get?I think the fixation is rather obvious. People don't like an endless series of dangling questions and authors set up most of those questions to be answered. It is reasonable for people to desire an author to finish a story. It's also reasonable to realize authors are humans and prone to not finishing stories or doing so in their own time and be gracious with them. Still there are consequences. The one I listed for myself was having a different way I recommend the series. If you feel differently, more power to you, but it's not illogical.
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I'd argue that if you are a professional trading your art for cash then you are by definition in a relationship where you owe the paying customer something. How much is of course always up for debate, and then you can factor in us internet leeches bitching for nothing, and how toxic these fanbase things can be and it is not hard to come away thinking the guy is getting way too much shit. But i think the he doesn't owe his readers anything for financially supporting his creation thing swings a bit too far in the other direction.
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@andre
I don't know if I expressed myself poorly of it you misunderstood me.
Wanting to know all the answers yadda yadda is fine.My thing is about story telling itself, it's more important to enjoy the journey of have a checklist of answers at the end of a series/book?
For me this ties itself with the problem people have with spoilers, I take more enjoyment in finding how things reach it's conclusion than on the knowing the conclusion, so in that spoilers are not a problem. And by expansion, neither are open endings/unfinished works.
Fo exemple take "Murders in the Orient Express", during the novel Poirot reaches two verdicts: on right and one wrong, the crux of the story is his choice on which is the right one not in finding the "X did it".
At least that's my take.Or another one, I for one would like what ever happened to Ungoliant after it's confrontation with Melkor, but it's meaningless to the story Tolkien wanted to tell. So I'm fine with not having a real final answer.
I think there's things the the author must make clear and proper and others that are just better left open.
An other point I could make on this is the commodityfication of cultural production. Or the gatekeeping of it.
You must consume all the products and by-products of a series and know all the answers to all the plots to call me a "true fan". Enjoyment is secondary to collecting it. -
@wolfwood said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
I'd argue that if you are a professional trading your art for cash then you are by definition in a relationship where you owe the paying customer something.
Togashi and by extension every author, comercial relationship is with the publishing house and the publishing house sole.
A writer wants to tell a story, a publishing house wants to buy a story that they think will give profit for them. The comercial relation is this. C'est fini.
The reader relationship is with the publisher not the author. We can demand reprints, fancier editions, etc.
But we are not paying shit to the author (sure they might still get royalties and residuals but that partakes on their contract - relationship - with the publisher) were are buying from the publisher. -
Eh. Money starts in the readers pocket, and ends up in authors pocket. This whole actually it is my shell corporation that owes taxes line of reasoning feels very semantical in this context. Picture book man makes money because reading person purchases it.
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@wolfwood
A book author is paid beforehand the publishing a set value. And by contract a percentage of sales.
See exemple:
https://www.themarysue.com/xiran-jay-zhaos-iron-widow-sequel-heavenly-tyrant-delayed-by-low-pay/#:~:text=Zhao said they made a,on for even a year.Picture man receives royalties if he sells. If the book tanks he only get what he was paid.
Every mangaka is still paid by page by Shuheisha. If the manga shows no prospect of returning the investment Shuheisha axes it.
Your interpretation is not only a banal simplification of the economics of an artist but as well an exemple of what I said about commodification of art.
You don't see art as something to experience/enjoy, you see it as a service.
Something you pay and consume. -
I mean i feel a little redundant since you just put forth the argument that popularity and sales is what makes it possible to make money and keep making comics. Popularity is readers, and sales are readers putting their bucks in the authors pocket via their middle man. Comic maker makes his money from having fans, who in turn hope for a return on their investment of time, money and love in the form of a continued good reading experience. This symbiotic, if very uneven, relationship is why i think the concept of a true artist who owes nothing to the people his career is built upon rings hollow. It's like the self-made man, i would argue that such a thing doesn't exist and we are all in give and take relations to people all day every day, geniuses and regulars alike.
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People are really protective of Togashi here, huh?
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It's not a writer's duty to be chained to their desk their entire lives in service of their audience. They produce the art, and the audience buys one art. Fair exchange.
HOWEVER, when its an ongoing story, particularly one with many installments, and they end it with cliffhangers and all the plots unresolved, it IS fair to expect them to do their best to get the next installment out as quick as they reasonably can.
2-3 years is generally pretty okay with novels, and 5 years isn't insane if its a big chonker. Once you pass that point however?
Writer's block happens. Life gets in the way. Other projects speak to you more. Art is art and no one should be attached to any one project for more than 5 or 6 years, let alone 30, because you completely grow and change in that time, your interests shift and you burn out on that project. Most TV shows start floundering after 5 seasons, actors stop trying in a role eventually, creatives want to do something different, they've already put that passion forward for years.
No one cares if a book takes ten years to write if its a standalone book and its amazing. Lord of the Rings took 17 years. (Tho there was a war in there.) Shogun, one of my favorite novels, took 9 years, for a writer that only did 6 books in his lifetime.
As Neil Gaiman put it, "The Writer is not your bitch." But Game of Thrones and Kingkiller get shit on because its been 12 years and counting since their last outing with no future release in sight... and people are understandably annoyed and have given up on them because they ended in the middle of the story.
Same with Togashi. If he wrapped his narrative up... and then just once every 3 years released a standalone 10 chapter story set in the universe, with a start and end, the way Toriyama does, and Oda certainly will after OP is done, everyone would be okay with that. It's a gift then, the man is in retirement, it's all cool.
It's when the story has been in the same story arc for a full decade now, in a series that has been running for 25 years, and on hiatus for 17 of those, with no sign of making any real progress or ever finishing that it gets super frustrating and you really start getting annoyed with the creative not finding some other way to do what they need to do to finish the story.
Especially in a manga's case where the solution of "let an assistant do the bulk of the art if you are no longer able" feels like a reasonable solution for a creator that has basically only been able to produce ~2 years of work in the last 17.
Obviously the creator wants to retain full artistic control, (but he clearly started using background assistants 7 years ago, the quality jump and difference ininking styles was obvious) so if he's willing to make THAT concension, why not a little more so that he can finish the story, if he feels his time is running out?
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@wolfwood said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
i think the concept of a true artist who owes nothing to the people his career is built upon rings hollow. It's like the self-made man, i would argue that such a thing doesn't exist and we are all in give and take relations to people all day every day, geniuses and regulars alike.
You're right because even if the artist doesn't get paid, his desire to share his piece/story with others can be as important as the money he gets. There's no denying this in any universe that human connection/affirmation/attention is necessary to give joy to the author. Be it in the way of a discussion(like we are having) and/or monetary. Geniuses are geniuses because the masses affirm their position as one. There's no true "self-made" man because even the very first of mankind took from nature to prosper.
But that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm well aware that there is a relationship and obligation there but the fulfillment of that obligation comes at an expense that the author chooses not to undertake. And that is something that can be understood, respected even. I don't want to repeat myself but health is obviously the foremost, the legal/business side of things, his need for control over his own work, his own work feeling different to him if someone takes over, what will happen to his work if someone else influences it, etc. All of that should at the very least give people an understanding on why he chose not to have others continue/draw the series for him.
It might be, and I'm using this term loosely, "unfair" for the consumers/readers but it is fair for him to choose not to when you consider his perspective. There have been and will always be another Disney, Marvel, Boruto, DB Super, LOTR and there is no certainty that his work won't turn out to be something he detests under the sphere of control of someone else. This is true even if he were to pass and is not here to witness that anymore. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand and this isn't even my point, I'm just here to advocate not pushing someone who is bedridden to work more for something most people are going to casually consume and forget. Everything absolutely makes sense from the business/societal perspective which is what people are going on about but none of that gives a shit about what the creator actually feels and wants. More is not always better for the person at the helm.
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@access-timeco You'll find me amongst the first in the queue to shit-talk GRRM for his handling of Game of Thrones. Togashi's case is different. He wants to and have all the desire to but he can't. He can through a myriad of methods but said methods were then perceived as the surrender of his artistic integrity/control by him. This also isn't a case of Writer's Block and he isn't an author. He is both an author and an artist who worked in an environment that rips you both mentally and physically apart.
The publisher-writer relationship is also different from that of a serialized magazine-mangaka relationship. One allows you to drop a book on a whim and the other, because of the perceived norm of the consumers in said industry, requires you to constantly release chapters or match the schedule of the magazine. Books don't have that limitation.
People are still fucking bitching about Togashi not working enough when he dropped what was the equivalent of half a novel's worth of effort last year. If I sound like I'm talking crazy then yeah, maybe I am because you can't scale the effort input for manga like you can for novels. Planning what to draw, how to draw, and then drawing + planning what to write, how to write and then writing is obviously going to be different in terms of effort output compared to planning what and how to write and then writing.
For perspective, the western market for comic books which have roughly 40? over pages on print takes roughly around 4-6 months to work on. Togashi's latest output takes you up to around 80-100 pages. Sure, there is coloring to think about but even if you take that away, that's still significant amount of time. And this is an output from someone who can barely stand without his back trying to kill him. There's also the consideration that like most creators at his pedigree, he has certain standards. And such standards requires time and deliberation to go about. You don't just wave your hands and draw whatever comes to mind and poof, that's your quota.
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@Robby Reasonable points because this is an ongoing story but I have to be the guy who points out that Togashi said on record that it'll be fine if the World Tree chapter can be taken as an ending to the series. Because there is no "oh I'll publish another book that ties into shogun/lord of the rings" method for the manga industry he'll have to go with the "i'll publish a few chapters every now and then" but this example is obviously not the best seeing how Kurapika is not an independent entity outside of HxH.
Oh but if you change your perspective, he can be seen that way. Say assuming that Shogun/LOTR's authors publish another book, like a decade down the road, that has one of the secondary character whose plotline you found slightly underwhelming compared to the rest then have him go through his own, almost independent to the events of the previous book, narrative/character arc. You'll enjoy it and be glad that you got more but that's only because you weren't expecting/lying in wait. If that's your point, then I get it but I want to point out that this could very well be the same thing but is perceived as not because of how the manga industry works.It goes back to the question of why not just end the damn thing and write something else, and then my answer is no he can't because he wanted to do the narrative for Kurapika and Spiders justice while writing his own thing with the princes. The alternative would be to do a YYH ending where the plotlines end poorly/forgotten or discarded but he doesn't want to do that so we got this. And I actually think this is better. The question of why not get people to do it for him/other methods is something that I've talked about to death in the previous pages so I'll abstain from ranting on again in this reply.
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@zeltrax225 said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Togashi said on record that it'll be fine if the World Tree chapter can be taken as an ending to the series.
Did he ever say this before the new interview from last week?
Because there is no "oh I'll publish another book that ties into shogun/lord of the rings" method for the manga industry
??? It happens all the time. Particularly with anniversaries.
Toriyama did a stealth Dragonball tie in a few years back with Jaco. Dragonball in generral gets lots of spinoff stuff now,
Shaman King came back and did a whole other ending.
Death Note has done a ton of one shots that now fill an entire volumes.
Naruto's creator came back and took over writing Boruto after his other manga flopped.
Negima/UQ Holder.
Everything with CLAMP has rolled into itself in a connected universe.
Etc. etc.
Fruits Basket got a sequel.
Gundam goes back to the old sources and fill in extra gaps all the time.
Jojo is a sequential series of sequels that have loose ties to the previous arc and reset character and powers sets... and the most recent stories aren't even connected to the old ones.
The awful Rent a Girlfriend has a spinoff focusing on the one good character and its a completely different tone and feel.
When the creator that has sold you millions of copies says "I want to do a 10 chapter story set in the same world that will sell you another 4 million copies that you can also do new merchandise off of" they don't say no.
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@Robby First point here. He wrote the world tree chapter to be sort of an end to Gon and can be interpreted to the readers as an ending.
If we want to split hairs here, It's obviously not canonically an ending seeing how the story is going.You're missing/misunderstanding what I've meant regarding the other point. Togashi isn't going to be satisfied doing Kurapika and Spiders story as a one shot or a "I'll run a tankobon" sort of approach. That is why he chose to continue the way it is and if it wasn't obvious enough, a lot of the fanbase was not going to be satisfied if that was the end of HxH when the entire Kurapika/Spiders/Gin plot has not been explored. Nothing except a serial length or what is happening now is considered satisfactory to his own expectations of doing his characters right. Least to mention the fanbase's expectations. Which is why we have what we have now.
I don't know whether you are being deliberate or not by comparing him to Rent a girlfriend author or even Naruto. Neither of said authors are in the same shoes as him. If you are going to approach this disregarding the context that he has a damaged back, worries about his mortality and serious health issues then of course any of your listed examples would work. You decided to bring in the commercial value of things when it's obvious to anyone that he doesn't care about the monetary value it brings him as compared to everyone else. When your body can't function the way before and when money doesn't really matter, then yes, that's when you say no.
Of course it's possible. Hell if he wants to he can have an entire HxH theme park, 20 spin offs, lackluster adaptions in various mediums. And you are right if the only way you are able to see it is via a consumer/business standpoint that this will guarantee everyone more content and more capital disregarding the entire conversation that was happening regarding artistic integrity, the possible ruination of it, his deteoriating health and how himself feels about his own work. Then yes, absolutely, anyone can tell you that's the way to go.
That is exactly why shitting and whining about Togashi is such a low hanging fruit.
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You completely misunderstood my point.
The publisher isn't going to say no to anything he brings them.
He can bring any deal to the table he wants, and they'll do what they can to assist him in making that happen.
He's the one that has chosen the current route and production and format. If Togashi says "I just want to write a script", they'll give him a talented assistant group. If he says "Lets make an anime that does this justice" and just provides a broad outline like Dragonball Super, they'll push to make that happen.
Let him make the art however exactly he wants it.
But it's 100% fair for the readers to be tired of it and want him to make some sort of compromise if his health and ability just aren't in it. If he can't finish the story, if he's only able to work on it for one week every two years, then maybe stop trying to tell a story that still has a thousand chapters to go.
Or go "this may be the last time my health lets me do a batch" and reach some kind of temporary stopping point, instead of being in the middle of this endless boat arc with no resolution at all in any given chunk. He doesn't have to wrap up the Kurpika and Spider stuff in the next 10 chapter chunk, but at least finish all the hundred plus mob characters he introduced in this arc and have some kind of momentum.
Or if he's feeling his mortality to the point he's publicly making "if I die, here's the ending" announcements, then at least start making some detailed notes so that it can be finished in some way while still hewing to his vision.
We've already been through this with Berserk, another 3 decade series where the author took year long gaps between chapters and had terrible health who then died before the story was done.
I don't know whether you are being deliberate or not by comparing him to Rent a girlfriend author or even Naruto. Neither of said authors are in the same shoes as him.
You wanted examples of someone doing a manga,finishing the manga, and then later doing a side project connected to it thats not still the main manga to continue the story they didn't finish at the time or expanding on it. I listed a bunch off the top of my head, no consideration for the quality of the work or the creator's background or if its even the same creator.
You said "there is no "oh I'll publish another book that ties into shogun/lord of the rings" method for the manga industry" and I gave a ton of examples of exactly that.
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@Robby yeah but that's all easier said than done. Which is my whole point for the past few pages. It's not as if there weren't any precedents of that collaboration failing and ruining what was a great work. There's a lot of them out there. There's a high chance of that happening once you relinquish that sphere of control over to someone else. YYH probably taught him that, I don't know for sure but I like to think it did. I'm just here flagging out the points that he is concerned about and is rightfully so to be. Everything you've said regarding collaboration rings true and is very fair but it also takes a ton of work despite what it seems. There's also the entire conversation regarding how he himself has that pride and vision that propels him to want to finish it himself but that's a whole conversation that've been talked to the death in the previous pages.
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YYH he just abanandoned in the middle of the arc because he was pissed at his editor, without even finishing the volume, they had to load it up with sketches to fill out the page count and the anime had to BS the ending.
He didn't hand over any control on YYH, he just abandoned it. That's not a great example of Togashi's dedication to doing his story his way, it's an example of him not actually caring about giving the readers a good ending and being willing to stop completely randomly as it suits him.
If anything, its MORE reason to be upset about his handling of HxH,
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@Robby said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
You said "there is no "oh I'll publish another book that ties into shogun/lord of the rings" method for the manga industry" and I gave a ton of examples of exactly that.
the equivalent of that in the manga industry is not a spin off by a different author or a one shot. That's like saying you get 2-3 chapters a decade later about a side character. I'm talking about an entire book by the same author that can be inferred back to the first one. The equivalent of that is another serialization that attempts to run the same length. It's not the same. There is an example with Rurouni Kenshin and UQ Holder, sure. But both cases STILL have to serve the format of serialization/being ongoing for several years, something which Togashi cannot afford because of his health.
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@Robby he wasn't in full control or had enough control to be able to write what he wanted to write. Or its continuity was something he didn't want or it can be a mixture of both. The issue here is the amount of control he had and the amount of control others had over him and his work. It boils down to the same principle of not letting someone influence what you want to do.
Let's say if Hayao Miyazaki or any other director decided to make another movie and sketched and wrote the draft for everything and unfortunately(touch wood, for arguement's sake, disclaimer that I don't wish it on him) passed away before, or somewhere in the middle and the staff carried on and published the film under his name. On paper, yes, it is a Hayao Miyazaki's work but if we are being real, we know the guy would often change things, be specific about particulars, delay things, until it fits his vision. But because he is no longer around and has no control now, that was never going to happen. This is how I feel regarding Togashi and the entire dilemma. He's still around but he is sick and if he was to be put into a position where he had to release chapters on a strict schedule, he will not be able to do what he has been doing because of the lack of control due to the commital stance that he has promised to take. This is the same logic if someone else were to continue his work after his passing.
I'm not saying whether that's bad, good, or the way to go/not go. I'm just throwing up a perspective here. There are works that can only be produced by certain individuals (geniuses, masters, whatever you term them) if they are a part of the process from start to end. Look, I'm all for more chapters and I'm fine if it goes that way but the artist not wanting that is understandable because it is his own child in his eyes.
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@zeltrax225 said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
Let's say if Hayao Miyazaki or any other director decided to make another movie and sketched and wrote the draft for everything and unfortunately(touch wood, for arguement's sake, disclaimer that I don't wish it on him) passed away before, or somewhere in the middle and the staff carried on and published the film under his name.
You mean the exact thing Miyazaki has done multiple times?
Whisper of the Heart, Arriety, and Poppy Hill are all films he just did writing and boarding on, and left the bulk of the actual work and directing to other people and they came out great. Whisper of the Heart is my second favorite Ghibli film.
Nadia Secret of Blue Water was taken from notes and concepts he did that eventually tuned in Laputa, but taken in a whole different direction and it's one of my favorite animes. It doesn't feel like a Miyazaki movie, but you can still see some of him in it even without knowing his involvement, I knew it felt like one of his years before I knew about his involvement.
And then there's all the stuff he did in the 60s through 80's where he wasn't the final name in charge, or where he worked in tandem with Takahata, but you can see his fingerprints all over the work. He wasn't the sole creator but he still created, still told his stories, still expressed his vision.
Heck, Miyazaki himself hadn't finished Nausicaa when he made the movie, he spent another ten years working on the manga... and now the manga far surpasses the movie in every way and I can't go back to it. He's unlikely to ever spend time doing another film adaptation of that work... but if someone else wanted to take the manga as storyboards and adapted it for an 8 hour epic someday? Using the same artists and musicians and co-workers that have been at ghibli for decades? I'd been all in on that.
I loved Nino-Kuni, and that's just Ghibli working with a game developer, not even any involvement from Miyazaki, but alot of those loving touches were all over it.
Or, to use a creator that actually died, Robert Jordan wrote 12 volumes of Wheel of Time and died before finishing. Brandon Sanderson wrote the last 3 and did a fantastic job. It's not the story Jordan would have given us, but it used his notes and what his assistants and wife could tell, and it did a very good job and ended up with a super satisfactory ending that led me to one of my favorite writers whose work I've enjoyed for a decade now that I might never have tried if he hadn't picked up the torch from one of my old favorites.
Berserk is ongoing now after the authors death. We'll always know its not exactly what Muira would have done. The art isn't the same, the character stuff won't be as good, and its probably going to be a bit more rushed. But it IS the story he spent his life trying to tell, as best as his friend and personally trained studio can recall it. It's an imperfect resolution but it will at least be resolution as close to his desire as possible.
If Togashi just can't do the art anymore, and we know he accepted that he can't do it all himself at least some when he started using assistants a decade ago, then the man needs to consider. How much does he actually want to tell his story, how much does he want to suffer for his art. What is within his ability. What is best for him AND the audience? To get help and tell it while he can, or to never tell it at all?
He's already stated that if he dies he wants his wife to finish it... and that actually seems like the worst possible outcome, Naoko Takeuchi's art and storytelling are so drastically different and their strengths in such different places it seems like a terrible match and that it would just be a very rushed obligation, rather than anything guided through a team while he's still alive.
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@andre Yeah that's a good point, I think I only said 6 because it feels different - 5 kinda retreads too much of the battle shonen stand of the week formula for 3 (and it's my least favorite part partially because of it)
hell if you really wanna be precise, in the SAME part Araki introduced them there's one that sticks out - Joseph's stand is no punch ghost. For me it was just easier to grasp them the more humanoid they were.
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@Robby said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
@zeltrax225 said in Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes:
You mean the exact thing Miyazaki has done multiple times?
I meant his deliberation over every single frame and him being increasingly annoyed by his staff when they failed to depict his vision. This didn't come out of my ass and was captured on film. His high standards have exasperated people around him and even his own son was weary of it.
Whisper of the Heart, Arriety, and Poppy Hill are all films he just did writing and boarding on, and left the bulk of the actual work and directing to other people and they came out great. Whisper of the Heart is my second favorite Ghibli film.
Didn't he make a snark comment towards the director during the press conference of Whisper of the Heart? I need to dig out the source but don't get me wrong, I'm sure Miyazaki has a lot of affection and love for him. You can refer to this interview or the eulogy to get where I'm coming from but my point is that he still had to push himself and adhere to Miyazaki's standards. He probably fought tooth and nail for it(I don't know) but the information we get depicts Miyazaki still being in control.
Nadia Secret of Blue Water was taken from notes and concepts he did that eventually tuned in Laputa, but taken in a whole different direction and it's one of my favorite animes. It doesn't feel like a Miyazaki movie, but you can still see some of him in it even without knowing his involvement, I knew it felt like one of his years before I knew about his involvement.
I really hate to be writing this because for everyone else it doesn't matter and I'm self-aware enough to know that this can sound pretentious. But traces of Miyazaki vs Miyazaki all over are two really different cases. I'm not arguing about whether Blue Water is better or that it has to be Miyazaki to be good, that's not my point. Generally no one is going to be THAT elitist and go hurr durr thats not Miyazaki enough you normies but there are going to be people who have seen enough and know film/animation by the book to catch that and not like/like it but one thing you can be sure of is there will be a distinction.
but if someone else wanted to take the manga as storyboards and adapted it for an 8 hour epic someday? Using the same artists and musicians and co-workers that have been at ghibli for decades? I'd been all in on that.
Sure, I will too. I generally don't care that much to the extend that I place people on pedestals despite everyone below them working their ass off. But there will be a distinction/difference because of the kind of person (influence,creative) that Miyazaki is. And because you and I might not be able to feel it doesn't change that fact.
I loved Nino-Kuni, and that's just Ghibli working with a game developer, not even any involvement from Miyazaki, but alot of those loving touches were all over it.
Ni No Kuni was great but it's also not Miyazaki. I'm reiterating what you've said but I think your point is as long as it captures the feeling of Ghibli and delivers what is satisfactory to the audience, it is still a great work regardless of the involvement of Miyazaki. I agree. It's a commercial success, it's a creative success, it's a gameplay success. It hits all the bars and standards for being excellent. But that's not what I'm talking about here. Even if a scenario where Miyazaki collaborates with a developer and they publish a game happens, there is no certainty that it will fare better than Ni No Kuni. But there will still be a difference. "But that's common sense, of course if two person were to be creative, they'll be different" and I agree but, putting aside that we are all less special than we think, Miyazaki and Togashi are juggernauts and standouts that the difference actually does matter and are individuals so unique enough that they are able to terraform an entire genre.
Or, to use a creator that actually died, Robert Jordan wrote 12 volumes of Wheel of Time and died before finishing. Brandon Sanderson wrote the last 3 and did a fantastic job. It's not the story Jordan would have given us.
That's my point. It's not the work he would have given his audience. Your position is fair because even if Togashi were not to be the one who wrote the series to the end, the consumer/readers and society as a whole would still view HxH as a success upon its conclusion. It's a desirable scenario for everyone except for the author/writer who prioritizes his work to be one that only he can tell and that no one else should divert(be it minute details or not) for him.
There's also the fact that Togashi is Togashi and no one else is Togashi. You'll understand that the very minute someone tries to adapt his style. Unlike Berserk where Miura likely had a completed story arc for the trio, Togashi does shit like the princes, nen, and giving minor/side characters 10 pages. This is the part where you'll say well maybe don't and concentrate on writing the conclusion for Kurapika(and 10 other loose ends).
My reply to that is that's asking him to do something that he doesn't want to just do and out of his usual method of writing. No other authors go on such Togashiesque deviations/tangents as Togashi does and whether you like it or not, it's what he does. Am I saying that he doesn't plan things out to the detail that other writers does and do write what is interesting on the fly? Probably. Is that what he does that is special to him. Absolutely.I have to constantly emphasis that I don't see anything wrong from where you are coming from in terms of a content/commercial standpoint and that every story deserves a resolution. But I like you to think of it as going to a restaurant run by someone who has been cooking, I don't know, your favourite bowl of noodles or your slice of pizza. You've been going there for years and you and the chef both understand why it is different from the rest. Now the chef passes and some franchise comes in and tries to replicate that recipe but because of the craft and the individuality of the chef that they'll never be able to replicate, you'll be able to taste the difference.
You might or might not still like it, the world will love it, but you can't say for sure that the chef will like that. There's a lot of reason why he doesn't like what is done to his dish but none of the consumers will even get an inkling/grasp of what he is feeling. This is especially so when money/fame is no longer a concern.
Berserk is ongoing now after the authors death. We'll always know its not exactly what Muira would have done. The art isn't the same, the character stuff won't be as good, and its probably going to be a bit more rushed. But it IS the story he spent his life trying to tell, as best as his friend and personally trained studio can recall it. It's an imperfect resolution but it will at least be resolution as close to his desire as possible.
What is best for him AND the audience? To get help and tell it while he can, or to never tell it at all?Yes, it won't be as good and it won't be as Togashi but yes it will deliver an outcome for everyone else. Everything you stated is better for the audience than it is best for him. And even "best for the audience" is debatable because fans would realise that no matter how Togashiesque someone else adapt the writing, it's not from him. Pariston brought it up earlier regarding the process and the experience you get just from experiencing the writing/art from an artist that can be vastly different from just wanting a conclusion/the seeking of knowledge.
Anyway, from his perspective, it might not matter as much. He might prefer having no resolution than having one that is half-assed or done by someone else or doesn't include his 10 tangents/side characters (that even if you find it a flaw, the guy loves it and see it as his masterstrokes) or whatever reasons there may be. He doesn't need the money, he doesn't need the fame, he does feel bad for his audience and his inability for a resolution which is why he felt obligated/decided to release the interview and that statement/chapter of the World TreeHe's already stated that if he dies he wants his wife to finish it... and that actually seems like the worst possible outcome, Naoko Takeuchi's art and storytelling are so drastically different and their strengths in such different places it seems like a terrible match and that it would just be a very rushed obligation, rather than anything guided through a team while he's still alive.
I want to bring up the consideration that having his wife finish it is a bad option from a rational point of view. But you have to remember that he probably spoke to her a lot about the story and where it goes so in his eyes there's no one other person who understands it more than him. There's at least that to think about because you're thinking of someone who can elevate his art or follow it like a subordinate would but he is thinking of someone who can be loyal to his vision.
If going from story point A to D is all that matters then just get anyone else to write it. If King, Martin, Sanderson, Rowling, Oda or Inoue Takehiko were to be given an outline of Chimera ant and asked to stick closely to it, you'll still be guaranteed a different experience. If Murata, Oda, Araki were to draw it and stick to Togashi style, you'd also get a different experience. Alternatively, if someone can emulate his artstyle and writing pretty closely, you'll get something like Boruto where the soullessness of it all just screams at you. It might be better, it might not be but it sure won't be the same. When the satisfaction of reaching point D matters more to the readers than the execution of it (which can only be done by a certain person), you'll get a different experience(and depending on how the dominoes fall, might as well be another series). Once again, I'm not arguing whether that's a good/bad/right/wrong/successful way to go about it, I'm saying that disregards the work that is put into the process of going from A to D which can only be attributed to the individual creator.
This was a long post and I'm pretty much broken down by all the replies I have to do which I don't even know why I'm doing but that's really all I have to say (which was a lot). I get the opinion from the other side and I'm simply defending the opinion of uh, the other other side. It's all words, we'll never know how he truly feels but I did enjoyed the discussion we've had.
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The difference between 10 chapters of the author's perfect vision, or 300 chapters of the author's vision reaching 95% with help that changes it a tiny bit.
All art is compromise, deadlines always loom and nothing is ever perfect and at some point, any storyteller, director, writer or artist or actor, has to draw a line between actually creating or just dying without that creation seeing light.
Togashi gave us panels like this and then didn't even fix them in the trade.
He's very clearly willing to not give any shit at all about the art when he doesn't want to, or turn in an incomplete product when he runs out of time... or just end the series entirely with a half assed resolution like he did with YYH.
So it that's the case then accept some damn help. And Togashi already conceded by taking on assistants a decade ago. The backgrounds had a massive jump in quality, and there's entire scenes that are entirely assistant drawn.
So where is the line between him drawing stick figures, and him just writing and letting someone else do the work he's just physically not able to anymore? Does he want to tell his story or does he not want to tell his story?
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Of course, I agree that a compromise is necessary when you want to get your product out there in the most successful state. That is how anyone would view it as the bar for commercial success and if really good? You'll create a legacy. I'm going to assume that the former (monetary/more fame) is significantly less of a concern for him than the latter, along with the obligation he has to end the story for the audience. And when things such as money and fame become less of a consideration, you'll start to concern yourself with those perfect standards you'll have to meet in your mind. I mean, take Avatar 2 for instance, and how fucking long that took. Money and Popularity is a thing, sure but he wanted his vision of what is perfect to be there even if that costed him everything else. He doesn't care. I know its the technology that he was waiting for but my point is you can't tell me that the general audience will care enough about the tech as much as he did....except until they got the movie and then it blew people away because of how good it is (writing and everything else was fine, but obviously not THE thing).
I'm not saying that whatever Togashi is going to produce, is able to produce, is going to be the equivalent of realistic water on screen because they are in two different domains. But I hope I got across the point that just like how Cameron won't release the movie until the tech is there and he is satisfied with he (willing to take his time + various other costs), Togashi won't release the entire blueprints for the narrative arcs of his characters (Kurapika,Leorio,Spiders,Chrollo,Hisoka,Pariston,Gin) until he is satisfied with what is going to be put out there. In this very roundabout of speech, he sees himself as the "technology" and how he uses it that no one else is able to replicate. It sounds absurd. I understand but I can't deny how having Togashi there throughout the entire series and applying his vision is vastly different from any other solution. I also didn't realize that there were so many of them characters left to write and if he wants to each give them a Gon-equivalent, and if I compromise here, a Pitou-equivalent narrative arc while tying them with the arcs of other characters it already sounds like writing hell.
Maybe my entire argument is that he is a pain-in-the-ass personality to work with (with respect to his health) or otherwise known as the mad scientist equivalent(at the very least a genius with tendencies the common man couldn't understand) approach to his work. There's no help that changes it in a tiny bit with Togashi though because, like I've said, everything about how he writes and draws just can't be duplicated. I'm not trying to express some kind of twisted adulation for him here but it is pretty evident with the way he writes how unique a creator he is.
Can he compromise and at the very least write the backbone for what will be the character arcs of the ones the audience is invested in? Yes. and sure if he really does push himself he might be able to write them all to a satisfying conclusion and I say that knowing that he has problems going to the toilet and standing up with the state of his back but yes, if we really want that then he could at the expense of whatever free and little time in life that he has left. But he would forego control of his composition, paneling, art, and all the little details that make manga-manga. If we really want to push it then maybe he can also do the storyboards/sketches for what is at least 50-100 chapters and then leave it to someone else to execute it. But that's a really tight argument to make because even for a master, it still takes a shit load of time. If what people are asking for is the writing + the storyboards at the level and standards that they expected from HxH, they are pretty much asking him to give up the rest of his life for this.
I don't really (maybe a little) care about the lazy ones who are coasting off life because they earned more than enough so they don't write anymore but I do have some sympathy for an individual who gave more half of his life/health for work and is now bedridden. It might seem manageable as per Bakuman but I'll argue that the deliberation and planning to deliver something like Chimera Ant is likely more of a pain the ass to do as compared to every other series. He took breaks during that arc that likely helped change/affect the course of the arc. I don't know, I just think it has to be when all you think about is your work.
That's the whole argument and I agree it is entirely possible to do that even if I would still be happy if he just gave it up and spent the rest of his life, taking it easy and not constantly worrying about his work and the shame that comes with it especially when his back is killing him. I think you'll at least not mistake it as something that can be done in a month or two, or even six, and more like a marathon for him to even achieve that (leaving out layouts/blueprints for characters). That's the human aspect of the argument and even if we ignore that, I'm going back to my previous post about the problems with having a successor, how the work will not feel like Togashi's, how his approach is more on the fly than anything else, etc.
He wants to tell his story but he is baggaged by so many concerns that matters to him that we won't be able to know and can only guess of. You can't guarantee that none of what he fears will not come true either. And if he chose not to kill himself more for his work and not to risk it, then I respect that. The risk might seem like nothing or a nonconcern to us but to a creator and to someone like him, it's not that simple. I'm in the camp that having conclusive narratives while important can still be compromised when weighted on the scales of everything else that concerns him and how the work will turn out.
I have to emphasize again to end this long-ass reply that none of the opinions from your side/the camp that wants more is necessarily wrong. It is correct from the commercial/business/content standpoint and can even be right from a human/empathetic standpoint (if he does finish it, it's a HUGE weight off him and he can enjoy life). I'm just debating and expanding a whole fucking lot on the why he doesn't want it and to try and see it from his perspective and I think that perspective he has can also be right. No one is more concerned about ending it and the series than him, no one person toss and turn around in sleep more than he does, so it was never going to be as simple as a black and white problem.
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If you have a certain degree of freedom and if you are well off, it is quite hard to follow a strict schedule of work when you do not need to do it. I m pretty sure you can explain what is going on in Togashis mind from an incentive point of view. Beeing a mangaka is a friggin shitty profession when it comes to work life balance. In short "we can understand". Normally if you are doing a bad job at work you are getting punished by the markets/system in the long run. But that is not the case with HxH imo- the quality is still there when it comes to the overall feedback by fans. The tweet views are ridiculous.
We should not forget, Togashi is one of the best in the business when it comes to "storyboarding mangas". Multiple editors and also mangakas made that statement. And Togashi knows that he is excelling in that regard. It is fun beeing damn good at sth. For that reason he probably hasnt given up working on HxH. But that also means he might not want to give away the drawing process of the manga because it is part of the overall process for him: Bringing life to the storyboards. -
All I want to see is at least 20-30 chapters of the dark continent
The closest I can think the dark continent will look like is like Hell's paradise.
I also want to see Gin and pariston do some cool shit.
A full story for Kurapika
And yeah, I will be satisfied.
I am very much satisfied with Gon's, Killua's and Leorios ending.
But damn togashi, please, don't end the manga before we get off the boat and we don't get to see you're ideas for a whole new continent.
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I could imagine that there is a real risk that whoever ends up drawing it would feel tempted to do away with those info dump pages where it's like 80% speech bubble, with like walls and a face speaking. Like nah i'll get the gist of it.
