That's exactly what Roci wants you to think
Or Roci wants us to think thats what he wants us to think.
That's exactly what Roci wants you to think
Or Roci wants us to think thats what he wants us to think.
I'm not saying they are good people, nor am I saying they shouldn't be hated. What I am saying is that the events of chapter 766 and, probably, 767 - the beating and killing of Rocinante - should not be the thing that makes us hate them. That kind of treatment is to be expected when a pirate betrays his crew. Kidnapping and Dressrosa, on the other hand, should make us hate Doffy and Vergo. But that isn't what I'm talking about here. What I'm talking about is how people are feeling about Doffy and Verga as of this chapter. Heck, until the flashback the Doflamingo crew had more of a fandom than it does right now; I'm just saying that doesn't seem to make much sense, if the purported cause of this is what Doffy/Vergo are doing to Rocinante.
And about the Luffy/Zoro point: I said he would at least try to kill him, at least at first - he would at least put a hurting on Zoro. After that, he might still consider him a friend, depending how deep the betrayal was - I don't really know. Heck, Luffy destroys dreams when he beats people up; the beating might even sway Zoro - who knows? He might not even fight him at all, but that isn't important. The point is that no one would hate Luffy if he had pummeled Zoro into the ground for being a traitor; no one hated him for wrecking Usopp, and Usopp didn't do anything as bad as Rocinante (though, he did literally ask for it by challenging Luffy to a duel he knew he couldn't win). Rocinante was actively trying to stop Doffy from achieving his goals, and pretending to be an ally while doing so. I don't think you can really fault Doffy for wanting him dead now, or Vergo for beating him to the verge of death.
It seems like this chapter has made Vergo super hated. And I get that. But, on the other hand, maybe he isn't AS horrible as everyone is making him out to be. Most people have taken a liking to Corazon, and to us he just got the spit kicked out of him for trying to save a little kid and also stop his insane brother.
But from Vergo's perspective, I would thrash Rocinante too. Imagine if Luffy found out that Zoro, during his entire tenure on the crew, was actually a marine spy feeding information that would jeopardize everyone on the crew as well as Luffy's dream. He would probably destroy Zoro (or at least try to, at least at first - he would put a good hurting on him).
Rocinante betrayed the family. That's a pretty cut and dry reason for an execution. Doflamingo probably doesn't even think that he is evil - he gave his whole speech about good basically being whatever the strong say it is; he is not immoral, but rather amoral. If you do not think there is a right or wrong beyond mere convention, then what Rocinante did - regardless of his reasons - is an unacceptable betrayal.
While I'm not stoked on Vergo, and think Doffy is a dirtbag, I think it is entirely reasonable to be doing to Rocinante what Vergo and Doffy are doing.
Roci did not betray anyone. He was doing his job as a Marine. And if Luffy finds out Zoro was a spy, he won't do anything to him. He will tell Zoro to decide what he wants, and if Zoro picks Marine, he will be ask to leave.
When they thought Robin set them up, were they looking for her to beat her up? NO, they kept trying to understand her reasons.
Roci did not betray anyone. He was doing his job as a Marine. And if Luffy finds out Zoro was a spy, he won't do anything to him. He will tell Zoro to decide what he wants, and if Zoro picks Marine, he will be ask to leave.
When they thought Robin set them up, were they looking for her to beat her up? NO, they kept trying to understand her reasons.
I think it is a clear betrayal by Doffy's lights. Yeah Corazon knows Corazon is a marine (or whatever he is) and is just doing a job. To Doffy though, Corazon is his brother and crew mate - his right hand, more or less. He is his family. For Doffy, Rocinante's actions are a betrayal.
It is just false that he didn't betray anyone, btw: if the reasoning is that he didn't betray doffy because he was a marine afterall, then what about Sengoku and the marines? He stole the ope ope no mi from them, too. He certainly betrayed Sengoku (and I think he was right to do so, but that doesn't change it). Heck, he is probably looking at jail time/execution from them too.
Good point on the straw hats - you are probably right. But that was just an example. My point is that in the one piece world, it is not crazy to expect execution for betraying your crew.
Also, i went back and re-read my initial post. I misspoke: Vergo/Doffy are super horrible. What I meant was that the beating/killing of someone they thought was crew/family who ended up to be actively attempting to foil their plans doesn't strike me as particularly unjustified or heinous. I would think that many crews would do the same in their shoes, even ones that we might not consider evil.
Rocinante was actively trying to stop Doffy from achieving his goals, and pretending to be an ally while doing so. I don't think you can really fault Doffy for wanting him dead now, or Vergo for beating him to the verge of death.
Rocinante was trying to save a kingdom. What is wrong with you? Roci said it that Doffy is dangerous. You do whatever it takes to stop a dangerous person. You don't have to be a Marine to know that. If Luffy suddenly becomes dangerous, his crew will stop him.
Rocinante was trying to save a kingdom. What is wrong with you? Roci said it that Doffy is dangerous. You do whatever it takes to stop a dangerous person. You don't have to be a Marine to know that. If Luffy suddenly becomes dangerous, his crew will stop him.
I completely agree, but I think you are missing my point. I am not saying that Rocinante did not do the right thing. I think he did. I am saying that from Doflamingo's perspective, execution seems appropriate. He isn't going to say "well, so long as you did the right thing I guess it is fine that you infiltrated my crew by exploiting the fact that you are my brother in order to sell me out to the marines; so long as you did what was right."
Rocinante's character is not in question, nor is Doflamingo's. I am talking about the justification/appropriateness of Doffy's actions against Rocinante in light of what Rocinante did - even if Rocinante did the right thing (I think he did).
I like Rocinante and dislike Doffy as much as anyone, but killing Rocinante does not strike me as something unjustified and horrid that Doffy did given the circumstances. It makes sense that he did it, even if I wish he hadn't, and that makes sense because Oda isn't just going to have completely unmotivated characters acting entirely without reasons.
Rocinante was expecting death if caught, because he was doing something worth killing over - and worth dying for.
I completely agree, but I think you are missing my point. I am not saying that Rocinante did not do the right thing. I think he did. I am saying that from Doflamingo's perspective, execution seems appropriate. He isn't going to say "well, so long as you did the right thing I guess it is fine that you infiltrated my crew by exploiting the fact that you are my brother in order to sell me out to the marines; so long as you did what was right."
Rocinante's character is not in question, nor is Doflamingo's. I am talking about the justification/appropriateness of Doffy's actions against Rocinante in light of what Rocinante did - even if Rocinante did the right thing (I think he did).
I like Rocinante and dislike Doffy as much as anyone, but killing Rocinante does not strike me as something unjustified and horrid that Doffy did given the circumstances. It makes sense that he did it, even if I wish he hadn't, and that makes sense because Oda isn't just going to have completely unmotivated characters acting entirely without reasons.
Rocinante was expecting death if caught, because he was doing something worth killing over - and worth dying for.
You need help if you keep looking at things that way. I mean killing Bellemere-san was justified, after all, she couldn't buy her own life. Akainu was within his rights, what's wrong with killing the son of the worst pirate. I understand Eneru's point of view, destroy sky island and kill thousands, they were too weak anyway.
Seriously, what's your point? A young man lost his life while trying to save a Kingdom and a young boy, you keep saying you understand the point of view of his killer.
You need help if you keep looking at things that way. I mean killing Bellemere-san was justified, after all, she couldn't buy her own life. Akainu was within his rights, what's wrong with killing the son of the worst pirate. I understand Eneru's point of view, destroy sky island and kill thousands, they were too weak anyway.
Did you even read his entire post ?
He just thinks that Doffy sparing Roci's life would be inconsistent at this point…I believe.
Did you even read his entire post ?
He just thinks that Doffy sparing Roci's life would be inconsistent at this point…I believe.
Did you read his previous post(s)? He doesn't understand why people that like Mingo few chapters back suddenly turn on him. Roci betray the crew and deserve death :getlost:
I think I understand Ned's posts. He is playing devil advocate and trying to see the situation through the don's eyes, I mean shades.
We as readers have a different kind of shades that we see the events of the series through. Things like right and wrong, sentimental value of the characters, and how we judge these characters according to our standards. These shades, although superior to the don's and everyone's in the series, shouldn't prevent us from understanding the in universe characters angle regarding the transpiring events. This privilege of seeing through all these characters views as an outsider and judging them is one of the reasons that makes literary works entertaining. I hope you can see my point Sereques.
Or X Drake was the one to save Law and how can you argue against fact, for gods sake.
Bellamy will have his own flashback believe or not
It would be great if Bellamy would get his flashback to add to all developments he has gotten, though I expected Oda to fix it at least partially with Laws flashback.
Why so tense? Jeez..
I think I might have missed on this, where can I find it? Or what does it say?
Its somewhere in previous chapter thread- search for Aohige posts and you will see explanation.
Seems like Aohige already explained.
So I didnt knew that Dorry is same as Doffy kind of thing.
My bad.
Seems like I wanted to see Ballamys part in flashback thinking it might be Bellamy as some kind of slave in Barrels crew.
Why does everyone just assume Cora(Rochiante) is dead? I find it far more likely that Law used the personality switching power of his to switch Cora's personality into a body that's not dying. There are a few theories that claim that Bepo is actually Cora and though its not impossible, it does seem slightly unlikely. But I don't see why Cora couldn't have stayed alive given law's op powers.
Why does everyone just assume Cora(Rochiante) is dead? I find it far more likely that Law used the personality switching power of his to switch Cora's personality into a body that's not dying. There are a few theories that claim that Bepo is actually Cora and though its not impossible, it does seem slightly unlikely. But I don't see why Cora couldn't have stayed alive given law's op powers.
Because he is dead.
Beside that Law didnt knew how to help Corazon and he doesnt even cured himself yet so I guess personality switch isnt some skill that is picked up at first place with Ope Ope no mi..
I'm not saying they are good people, nor am I saying they shouldn't be hated. What I am saying is that the events of chapter 766 and, probably, 767 - the beating and killing of Rocinante - should not be the thing that makes us hate them. That kind of treatment is to be expected when a pirate betrays his crew. Kidnapping and Dressrosa, on the other hand, should make us hate Doffy and Vergo. But that isn't what I'm talking about here. What I'm talking about is how people are feeling about Doffy and Verga as of this chapter. Heck, until the flashback the Doflamingo crew had more of a fandom than it does right now; I'm just saying that doesn't seem to make much sense, if the purported cause of this is what Doffy/Vergo are doing to Rocinante.
And about the Luffy/Zoro point: I said he would at least try to kill him, at least at first - he would at least put a hurting on Zoro. After that, he might still consider him a friend, depending how deep the betrayal was - I don't really know. Heck, Luffy destroys dreams when he beats people up; the beating might even sway Zoro - who knows? He might not even fight him at all, but that isn't important. The point is that no one would hate Luffy if he had pummeled Zoro into the ground for being a traitor; no one hated him for wrecking Usopp, and Usopp didn't do anything as bad as Rocinante (though, he did literally ask for it by challenging Luffy to a duel he knew he couldn't win). Rocinante was actively trying to stop Doffy from achieving his goals, and pretending to be an ally while doing so. I don't think you can really fault Doffy for wanting him dead now, or Vergo for beating him to the verge of death.
Luffy would probably just decide that Zoro didn't betrayed him. He did so with Robin. But I agree with your point. Next time just use Teach with Withebeard.
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Why does everyone just assume Cora(Rochiante) is dead? I find it far more likely that Law used the personality switching power of his to switch Cora's personality into a body that's not dying. There are a few theories that claim that Bepo is actually Cora and though its not impossible, it does seem slightly unlikely. But I don't see why Cora couldn't have stayed alive given law's op powers.
Metor in a flashback. Revenge from 13 years ago. And pretty sure the dialogues with Dofla implied it.
Roci is dead. It's pointless if he turns out alive and will just make Law look dumb.
Regarding the whole Doffy justification of killing Roci:
Doffy is kinda like a mafia boss. One of its top man who happen to be his brother betrayed him, he is not going to let him get away with it alive.
Even Roci expected death if Doffy found out about it. It was risk that Roci took when he infiltrated the family.
Or X Drake was the one to save Law and how can you argue against fact, for gods sake.
Bellamy will have his own flashback believe or not
Sounds about right, Bellamy is Dressrosa's Brownbeard after all, and if Brownbeard got his own FB, Bellamy can have his own too with no problem at all.
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So I didnt knew that Dorry is same as Doffy kind of thing.
.
Same?? Because it's spanish?? Com' on!!, most of Robin's moves are also in spanish, some of them terrible translated, like "Giganto mano" that one always gets me xD.
Same?? Because it's spanish?? Com' on!!, most of Robin's moves are also in spanish, some of them terrible translated, like "Giganto mano" that one always gets me xD.
Same because:
I'm pretty sure he's misunderstanding something, because I have no idea what he's talking about.
Dorry is a valid nickname for Drake (spelt Doreiku in Japanese), same pattern as Doffy for Doflamingo.
Drake's family name "X" is spelt in Japanese as Diez every time it comes up in the manga, exactly the same as Diez Barrels.
(roman numeral X = ten = diez in Spanish)He probably mixed these two factors up?
Its same form of nickname, thats what I mean Monquito.
Did you read his previous post(s)? He doesn't understand why people that like Mingo few chapters back suddenly turn on him. Roci betray the crew and deserve death :getlost:
Edit: I misread initially. That first part may be right. He is a kidnapper, schemer, homicidal/genocidal maniac who is destroying a kingdom, but people like him. We find out that years ago he killed someone we like when that person sold him out to the marines, and now he is irredeemable. It all strikes me as inappropriately sentimental. Remember when Whitebeard was cool with Ace hunting Blackbeard down for betraying the crew? No one said "Well, I think Whitebeard went too far this time," or "Ya know, I used to like Ace but I guess he is just a terrible person." Why? I guess because no one liked Blackbeard in the way we now like Rocinante. That second part not so much: I don't think Rocinante deserved death, but I do think there were good reasons for Doffy to kill him. Good reasons needn't be decisive, nor must they be a matter of morality - deserving death, however, does strike me as a moral claim.
"Inconsistency" is definitely one way to put it. Motivation is one way as well. I am saying that Doflamingo had reasons to do what he did, and I also understand Rocinante's reasons for doing what he did. Having a "good reason" for something does not mean that doing that thing is "good." I am just saying that killing Corazon is the obvious response to his actions - he clearly knows this, yet for some reason you won't accept that fact. Instead, it seems that you don't understand why anyone would ever kill such a swell guy. It sounds like your position entails that Doflamingo is completely unwarranted in killing Rocinante, simply because Rocinante is a good guy, or better yet because you like him. If he sold out the crew for money or power instead of trying to save Law and Dressrosa, you would sing a different tune.
Yet, from Doflamingo's perspective, that wouldn't even be as bad - at least Rocinante isn't thwartin his plans for thwarting his plans' sake.
I don't think you can tell the difference begween entertaining a point of view and accepting it as your own, as you are seemingly offended by the claim that Doflamingo had his reasons for killing Corazon.
If you want to refute me, maybe don't try "you need help" (that is, at best, a circumstantial argumentum ad hominem, and at worst a red herring) but actually try to understand my position and argue against it. Let me make that position clear. Forget about rocinante and doflamingo and try to think in the abstract.
If a member of some crew sells that crew out for any reason other than for the good of the crew, then that member has betrayed the crew. (Even if doing is a good thing to do - do not build your personal morality into it.)
If a member of some crew betrays that crew, it is not unjustified nor evil in itself to punish that member. (It MAY be evil depending on the method of punishment - torture, or reveling in it, or doing something particularly gruesome - abd it may be a bad thing if that crew member was a good person)
Therefore, if a member of some crew sells that crew out for any reason other than for the good of the crew, then it is neither unjustified nor evil to punish that member.
In other words:
P= a member of some crew sells that crew out for any reason other than for the good of the crew
Q= that member has betrayed the crew.
R= it is not unjustified nor evil in itself to punish that member.
The argument is:
If P then Q
If Q then R
Therefore if P then R
This is a valid hypothetical syllogism. If the premises are true then the conclusion must be true. In order to refute my position, you ought claim that at least one of my premises is false.
If these things are true though (the first is just a definition and the second is about what can be expected in any pirate crew, and neither is about what is or is not right but rather about what is or is not motivated), then the conclusion follows whether we are talking about Rocinante or not. Notice that the first premise is by the persoective of Doffy, and the second premise allows Doffy killing Rocinante to still be a bad thing, or for it to be an evil thing if he does so with malice, extreme violence, etc.
Furthermore, any pirate in the one piece universe should be aware that the second premise is true. Not every crew will treat betrayal the same - as you pointed out, our protagonists don't. Yet, I think even they understand that most crews would and that betrayal of a nakama justifies punishment (it is exactly for this reason that Ace hunts down Blackbeard, and why Luffy beats the snot out of so many usurious captains). Rocinante, like all pirates knows this as well. He accepts the risk, because what he is doing is worth dying for.
All I am saying is that Doflamingo has good reason for killing Rocinante rather than patting him on the back and giving him a congratulations party and fruit basket for doing the right thing, which it seems is exactly what Doffy would do if you write next week's chapter. And that is just ridiculous. Doffy doesn't factor in that Rocinante did the right thing - he just sees a knife in the back and returns the favor with a knife in the face.
If you cannot argue like an adult and are only going to find inappropriate offense with something I say and decide to attack me instead of try to understand and either change your mind or change my mind (I am open to being wrong, but insulting me doesn't prove me wrong), then we would both look less foolish if you just don't respond.
Luffy would probably just decide that Zoro didn't betrayed him. He did so with Robin. But I agree with your point. Next time just use Teach with Withebeard.
Good point - that is a much better example!
Is it possible that Roci is NOT dead? Why didn't Law just notify the marine later that they had Vergo as a mole in the Marine? Or somehow Law didn't leave Doflamingo on a bad term.. Roci may have blame everything on himself?
I think it would be a bad call if Roci was still alive it also wouldn't make much sense for law to be so upset if he was still living.
Is it possible that Roci is NOT dead? Why didn't Law just notify the marine later that they had Vergo as a mole in the Marine? Or somehow Law didn't leave Doflamingo on a bad term.. Roci may have blame everything on himself?
Everything is entirely possible until the conclusion of a story, but nothing said by present-day Law and Doffy has indicated that Roci is alive so … there's really nothing to discuss.
didn't law itself said that dofla killed roci?
why people are acting like him being alive it's a possibility? ò_ò
Hey guys, a question about translation.
In this panel is Doflamingo really saying "I think of him as a little brother", or is he saying something like "he's like my little brother"? I think it would make more sense… Hope some of you who understand japanese can clarify my doubt! It would be really nice if Doflamingo was mentioning the Corazon issue that early
!
Also, do you think that in that chapter Baby 5 was "trying to kill" Doflamingo because he's telling Vergo to kill Law?
didn't law itself said that dofla killed roci?
why people are acting like him being alive it's a possibility? ò_ò
End of chapter 749. But being in OP there's always someone to doubt death and Sabo created the flashback exception. It's not easy to remember everything. I myself wasn't sure the page existed.
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Hey guys, a question about translation.
In this panel is Doflamingo really saying "I think of him as a little brother", or is he saying something like "he's like my little brother"? I think it would make more sense… Hope some of you who understand japanese can clarify my doubt! It would be really nice if Doflamingo was mentioning the Corazon issue that early
Doflamingo (still in giant panel): “I think of him as a little brother!! And now, even though I took care of him for so long as he was growing up…”
@Aohige:
He says he regrets how it turned out, seeing he treated and raised Law like a brother.
Also, do you think that in that chapter Baby 5 was "trying to kill" Doflamingo because he's telling Vergo to kill Law?
Naah. She was simply thinking of her recent fiancee.
Is it possible that Roci is NOT dead? Why didn't Law just notify the marine later that they had Vergo as a mole in the Marine? Or somehow Law didn't leave Doflamingo on a bad term.. Roci may have blame everything on himself?
Maybe Corazon tells Law to be part of the Mingo Family and stop the wrong doing of his own brother.or next chapter is the answer of your question…
It would be great if Bellamy would get his flashback to add to all developments he has gotten, though I expected Oda to fix it at least partially with Laws flashback.
Why so tense? Jeez..
I'm chill bro, but you were going to argue against facts for a second there.
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Sounds about right, Bellamy is Dressrosa's Brownbeard after all, and if Brownbeard got his own FB, Bellamy can have his own too with no problem at all.
Hey link me to Brownbeard's I forgot to read that one but I heard that is awesome.
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Hasn't Bellamy been bellyaching about looking up to Doflamingo for the entire arc at least? I mean, if he is going to get anything, it's going to be a monologue where you get to see pictures of him as a kid, standing in awe in front of Doffy. I don't think for a moment he's going to be dignified with a several chapters long flashback and if he did, I would kill myself.
You're misunderstanding, I'm not saying that little Bellamy will get a flashback but rather awaken Bellamy will have one.
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Why does everyone just assume Cora(Rochiante) is dead?
Because parent figures die during flashbacks.
There's no point in having Rosi alive. It would downplay everything he has been doing for Law so far as well as Law's own motivations.
His role was pretty much to cure Law's nihilism and create conflict between Law and Doula.
It just sink in. I didn't feel anything during the last fight between Luffy and Doffy, but after this flashback I'm probably gonna be so pissed that I'll want Luffy to do a Blueno on Doffy so freaking bad.
Would it be too cruel for Doffy to force Law to kill Rocinante? :ninja:
Would it be too cruel for Doffy to force Law to kill Rocinante? :ninja:
You, good sir, just might be the devil.
Would it be too cruel for Doffy to force Law to kill Rocinante? :ninja:
using parasaito?
OK, I finally got around to seeing the chapter. As expected, it was pretty good.
Seeing Roci's smile at the end is quite saddening I must admit. :(
I think it would be a bad call if Roci was still alive it also wouldn't make much sense for law to be so upset if he was still living.
I think, his Devil Fruit Power, is the perfect ability to feign your own Death. He already survived a Daggerattack and several Gunshots in his Body. Its not yet predictable how Doffy "kills" Roci but maybe everyone things he has to be Death and Law used unintentional his ability to stop his vital functions for some Time. And right, when everyone leaves he plans to immerse and use his Ability to get away silently.
Hes a great Character, I wish hes alive.
@-Pk-:
I think, his Devil Fruit Power, is the perfect ability to feign your own Death. He already survived a Daggerattack and several Gunshots in his Body. Its not yet predictable how Doffy "kills" Roci but maybe everyone things he has to be Death and Law used unintentional his ability to stop his vital functions for some Time. And right, when everyone leaves he plans to immerse and use his Ability to get away silently.
Hes a great Character, I wish hes alive.
We're talking plot-wise. Rosi being alive would downplay Law's development, motivation and his conflict against the family.
It's true that no one knows about his fruit. He could fake his death by making his heart beats silent. But it's very unlikely.
This is vaguely tangential to this discussion about Doffy's trust in Rocinante, but what did he mean when he said he wanted Law to be his right-hand man?
Doflamingo has mentioned this both in the flasback and in the present day. The present day one is pretty easy, because the Heart Seat is open and Mingo said he was saving it for Law. However, at the time of the flashback, all the seats were full. When Mingo says he likes Law, most of us interpreted it as he liked Law's nihilistic attitude and anger at the world, and he planned to influence Law's development and groom him for command. If this wasn't just rhetoric to encourage Law, where in the organization would Law have been ranked? Would he have a position outside the main structure, like Vergo, or did Doflamingo expect a seat to become vacant?
Here's the leap. We know Doflamingo is capable of having very long term plans, as seen by the plan at least four years in advance to take Dressrosa. When Doffy calls Rocinante, he tells him he wants Roci to eat it. Rocinante becomes fearful because he infers Doffy's plan to become immortal and sacrifice him in the process. At what point does Doflamingo decide to sacrifice his brother? Is it because he thinks he might be a traitor since they've been undisturbed by the navy for the past six months? I don't think so. Doflamingo really wants to believe that Rocinante is loyal to him and I don't think he would plan to dispose of him without further evidence. It's clear Mingo had planned to use the Opi Opi no Mi for a long time, as seen when discussing his plans concerning it with Law. I believe Mingo had planned in advance to sacrifice his brother and had planned to do so two years ago at the time of Law's joining. When he said they might find a cure for Law, he meant he could have Corazon cure him before dying for Doffy and thus vacating the Heart Seat. It would also explain, from Doflamingo's point of view, why Corazon didn't have a devil fruit despite having no distinct techniques and the majority of the crew already having their powers. You'd think he'd want to grant his top executives powers first.
Edit: I misread initially. That first part may be right. He is a kidnapper, schemer, homicidal/genocidal maniac who is destroying a kingdom, but people like him. We find out that years ago he killed someone we like when that person sold him out to the marines, and now he is irredeemable. It all strikes me as inappropriately sentimental. Remember when Whitebeard was cool with Ace hunting Blackbeard down for betraying the crew? No one said "Well, I think Whitebeard went too far this time," or "Ya know, I used to like Ace but I guess he is just a terrible person." Why? I guess because no one liked Blackbeard in the way we now like Rocinante. That second part not so much: I don't think Rocinante deserved death, but I do think there were good reasons for Doffy to kill him. Good reasons needn't be decisive, nor must they be a matter of morality - deserving death, however, does strike me as a moral claim.
"Inconsistency" is definitely one way to put it. Motivation is one way as well. I am saying that Doflamingo had reasons to do what he did, and I also understand Rocinante's reasons for doing what he did. Having a "good reason" for something does not mean that doing that thing is "good." I am just saying that killing Corazon is the obvious response to his actions - he clearly knows this, yet for some reason you won't accept that fact. Instead, it seems that you don't understand why anyone would ever kill such a swell guy. It sounds like your position entails that Doflamingo is completely unwarranted in killing Rocinante, simply because Rocinante is a good guy, or better yet because you like him. If he sold out the crew for money or power instead of trying to save Law and Dressrosa, you would sing a different tune.
Yet, from Doflamingo's perspective, that wouldn't even be as bad - at least Rocinante isn't thwartin his plans for thwarting his plans' sake.
I don't think you can tell the difference begween entertaining a point of view and accepting it as your own, as you are seemingly offended by the claim that Doflamingo had his reasons for killing Corazon.
If you want to refute me, maybe don't try "you need help" (that is, at best, a circumstantial argumentum ad hominem, and at worst a red herring) but actually try to understand my position and argue against it. Let me make that position clear. Forget about rocinante and doflamingo and try to think in the abstract.
If a member of some crew sells that crew out for any reason other than for the good of the crew, then that member has betrayed the crew. (Even if doing is a good thing to do - do not build your personal morality into it.)
If a member of some crew betrays that crew, it is not unjustified nor evil in itself to punish that member. (It MAY be evil depending on the method of punishment - torture, or reveling in it, or doing something particularly gruesome - abd it may be a bad thing if that crew member was a good person)
Therefore, if a member of some crew sells that crew out for any reason other than for the good of the crew, then it is neither unjustified nor evil to punish that member.In other words:
P= a member of some crew sells that crew out for any reason other than for the good of the crew
Q= that member has betrayed the crew.
R= it is not unjustified nor evil in itself to punish that member.The argument is:
If P then Q
If Q then R
Therefore if P then RThis is a valid hypothetical syllogism. If the premises are true then the conclusion must be true. In order to refute my position, you ought claim that at least one of my premises is false.
If these things are true though (the first is just a definition and the second is about what can be expected in any pirate crew, and neither is about what is or is not right but rather about what is or is not motivated), then the conclusion follows whether we are talking about Rocinante or not. Notice that the first premise is by the persoective of Doffy, and the second premise allows Doffy killing Rocinante to still be a bad thing, or for it to be an evil thing if he does so with malice, extreme violence, etc.
Furthermore, any pirate in the one piece universe should be aware that the second premise is true. Not every crew will treat betrayal the same - as you pointed out, our protagonists don't. Yet, I think even they understand that most crews would and that betrayal of a nakama justifies punishment (it is exactly for this reason that Ace hunts down Blackbeard, and why Luffy beats the snot out of so many usurious captains). Rocinante, like all pirates knows this as well. He accepts the risk, because what he is doing is worth dying for.
All I am saying is that Doflamingo has good reason for killing Rocinante rather than patting him on the back and giving him a congratulations party and fruit basket for doing the right thing, which it seems is exactly what Doffy would do if you write next week's chapter. And that is just ridiculous. Doffy doesn't factor in that Rocinante did the right thing - he just sees a knife in the back and returns the favor with a knife in the face.
If you cannot argue like an adult and are only going to find inappropriate offense with something I say and decide to attack me instead of try to understand and either change your mind or change my mind (I am open to being wrong, but insulting me doesn't prove me wrong), then we would both look less foolish if you just don't respond.
Good point - that is a much better example!
you are waisting your time… (s)he doesn't get it... lol
This was my biggest fear about Sabo being alive, That guy created the possibility to survive a FB, and with characters like Roci we'll have to deal with the "X guy is alive" the same way we deal with "X big-boobs character for nakama".
It's gonna be a thing for the rest of the series :(
This was my biggest fear about Sabo being alive, That guy created the possibility to survive a FB, and with characters like Roci we'll have to deal with the "X guy is alive" the same way we deal with "X big-boobs character for nakama".
It's gonna be a thing for the rest of the series :(
Well its not exactly new to claim it.
We already had the people calling "character X didn't die!" for most of the series. Even for the characters introduced in flashbacks.
Sabo is just the only one of many FB Character death scenes that really did survive.
The very first claim of a "FB-C death wasn't s/he is still alive!" was for Kuina (we still hear "she's Tashigi!" bullshit that started waaaaaay back when she was first introduced in East Blue. (Kuina wasn't clumsy or wore glasses)) I for one am thankful that's not true.
BUT you have a point about Sabo=
Fans were most vocal -and rabid- about him. So much that we at AP had the joke "Sabo is everyone".
Now the Joke will be "Roci is everyone".
The biggest difference is that Law pretty much inherited Rosinante's entire purpose, which is opposing Doula Mongo. There's really no point in him being alive.
Sabo, however, was clearly stated to have a bunch of unfinished business, such as his dream of writing a book about his adventures and his talk with Dragon, so it was obvious he wouldn't die as his character had more to offer.
Can't wait till we get back to real time. I want to see Elite Officer "talk big" Pica getting crushed.
Well… it's not only because of sabo... it was pretty soon clear, that nobody dies in this animanga. I don't think rocinante is still alive, but from what we have seen up to now, it could be possible... i wouldn't be surprised if roci didn't die eventually... in my opinion the biggest mistake oda has made. Considering that a few indeed died - whitebeaed, ace, bellmere, otohime... why spare some and others not... it seems that there is no logic at all.
BUT you have a point about Sabo=
Fans were most vocal -and rabid- about him. So much that we at AP had the joke "Sabo is everyone".
Now the Joke will be "Roci is everyone".
Not really, we had hints at Sabo being alive compared to the others FB characters that the only thing they had was a gravestone
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Sabo, however, was clearly stated to have a bunch of unfinished business, such as his dream of writing a book about his adventures and his talk with Dragon, so it was obvious he wouldn't die as his character had more to offer.
Ace had much to offer but he's dead now.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Well… it's not only because of sabo... it was pretty soon clear, that nobody dies in this animanga. I don't think rocinante is still alive, but from what we have seen up to now, it could be possible... i wouldn't be surprised if roci didn't die eventually... in my opinion the biggest mistake oda has made. Considering that a few indeed died - whitebeaed, ace, bellmere, otohime... why spare some and others not... it seems that there is no logic at all.
Those who die end up shaping and redirecting a character through the right path while those who doesn't die still have important roles in the story that's the "logic".
We had hints yeah… but peoples' imaginations went nuts... there were even people who thought law was sabo... rumors spread like wildfire.
And i would agree with you, if it was just the flashbacks... but we see other people survive that shouldn't have... my favorite example is pell and kinemon... pointless. normally some die and some survive in order for the storyline to develop, but in one piece there is absolutely no consistency... i wouldn't be surprised if monet showed up in one of the next chapters xD
What I'm taking away from the chapter is the more powerful the devil fruit equals higher worth.
If Ope Ope was worth 5 Billion then how much do you think other devil fruits are worth?
I'm guessing Kizaru's fruit would be worth roughly 3-4 billion. Considering how powerful it is.
What I'm taking away from the chapter is the more powerful equals higher worth.
If Ope Ope was worth 5 Billion then how much do you think other devil fruits are worth?
I'm guessing Kizaru's fruit would be worth roughly 3-4 billion. Considering how powerful it is.
Law's, Marco's, Kizaru's, Shirohige's and Teach's are probably the most costly ones we have seen so far