Chapter 764: "White Monster"

King Cannon

So, it's like you're not reading what I'm saying at all. People can't be born with anything, that is not how it works, unless they have biological reasons to have changes in their brain and nervous system, and even then they can be helped and supress negative manifestations.
People are shaped by what they see, where they live, and with whom. Some assimilate the environment and become like their family, some act contrarian and become different, it is complex but all of it comes from all those factors of everyday life, not by things they are born with, because nobody is born with formed opinions.

You just said they could be born with a disorder. And you're saying again there.

And those disorders can't influence the shaping of the person?

Warp Predator

@King:

You just said they could be born with a disorder. And you're saying again there.

You perfectly understood what I meant, stop trying to use semantics so desperately just to prove me wrong.

Desperado

Am I the only one who thinks that Oda is a little bit unsure about what person Doffy in the end truly is?

One chapter he's a noble demon, the other one a complete monster.
One chapter he's a woobie destroyer, next chapter he's evil by nature.
He boasts with great visions one time and just wants to blow up everyting the other time.
One time he presents extensive cosmopolitan knowledge, next time he's an arrogant snob.
One time he's Mr. knows it all, next time he makes one blunder after the other.

It feels like Oda checks this thread every chapter and fine tunes his personality according to the complains that this times Doffy was too cool/uncool smart/dumb flat/complicated (ir)redeemable haxor/weak.

King Cannon

@Warp:

You perfectly understood what I meant, stop trying to use semantics so desperately just to prove me wrong.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm just questioning this notion that whatever people are born with can't influence on what they become later in life, and that it all can be treated.

So yeah, when you say yourself that a lot of this isn't understood yet and it's all very complex, you can't just claim that people can't be born with anything.

If anything, you're the one trying to simplify things.

Kizuchan

@Light:

These kind of nature vs. nurture arguments can be applied in real life, but in fictional series the author's portrayal is the most important perspective. If Rocinante said that Doffy was born evil, then he was.

Tough I still think threathening to kill that mob wasn't the best way to portray his evilness. He actually had a sympathetic reason to do that.

Characters also aren't always necessarily trustworthy. I really hope it's still just that he was shaped by his environment. You can see Rocinante didn't pick up the mannerisms of the Tenryuubito and that can also be the reason why he "ended up nice", while for Dofla it was a lot more extreme of an experience because he'd already picked up the Tenryuubito's behaviour much more strongly.

King Cannon

@Kizuchan:

Characters also aren't always necessarily trustworthy. I really hope it's still just that he was shaped by his environment. You can see Rocinante didn't pick up the mannerisms of the Tenryuubito and that can also be the reason why he "ended up nice", while for Dofla it was a lot more extreme of an experience because he'd already picked up the Tenryuubito's behaviour much more strongly.

But what about Homing?

ArmamentHero

Doflamingo is the most complex character we've had in the story. All I'm simply saying is that every individual is born with multiple traits. The environment slowly or drastically draws them out. However, when it comes to Personality/Mental Disorders, they can also be born with that For example, if a child was born into a humble and very caring household, but is very manipulative, unempathetic, and likes the sight of blood from an early age. One could honestly argue that he was born with this trait.

Edit: This is a very fun conversation.

Kizuchan

@King:

But what about Homing?

I feel like something must've changed his mind. I feel like if it turns out Dofla's born evil, I'd take away from his complexity a lot and even contradict some of the themes set with Hodi earlier, and in the War and Fishman Island. It doesn't line up with the logic that's been there so far.

!

Particularly the last one. Hodi choose to not listen to Hachi because he'd already been learning from Arlong.

DollarScholar

@KageKageKing:

You saw that at the OP wikia didn't you?

What? i checked the Wikia page for World Nobles and it doesnt even mention the Marquis de Sades novel. I read the novel (and saw the film adaption) in highschool and made a connection.

Warp Predator

@King:

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm just questioning this notion that whatever people are born with can't influence on what they become later in life, and that it all can be treated.

So yeah, when you say yourself that a lot of this isn't understood yet and it's all very complex, you can't just claim that people can't be born with anything.

If anything, you're the one trying to simplify things.

@ArmamentHero:

Doflamingo is the most complex character we've had in the story. All I'm simply saying is that every individual is born with multiple traits. The environment slowly or drastically draws them out. However, when it comes to Personality/Mental Disorders, they can also be born with that For example, if a child was born into a humble and very caring household, but is very manipulative, unempathetic, and likes the sight of blood from an early age. One could honestly argue that he was born with this trait.

Both of you can't see a difference between character traits and traits one gets because of physiology.
When child is born, he is a clean slate character-wise. He doesn't have opinions, likes, dislikes, political stance, worldview, morality etc.
All of that comes later, from his friends, parents, peers, postman, god, tv, whatever.

If child is born with what is considered disorder, he doesn't get "evil" "asocial" "violent" "unemotional" etc as his traits, life is not The Sims. He just sees world differently, experiences things differently and gets completely different results, which most people without such disorder might consider asocial and wrong. Then such person might get help with ajusting to society, or learn to live society rules, or might not. Even in OP - people can be born with or without COC, but one can be strongest without it, or crying shadow of former self with it. Depends on experiences.

Just like I said in the very beginning, nature is the factor, but most of the personality is formed by outside influence, and same child in two different environments can grow into two completely different people. No such thing as "born evil".

sabinis

@Warp:

Just like I said in the very beginning, nature is the factor, but most of the personality is formed by outside influence, and same child in two different environments can grow into two completely different people. No such thing as "born evil".

Two brothers rised by same parents in same situation with same treatment. One ends up as ruthless fucked up "monster" other one chosen doing good and doesnt get affected in same way.
Both started as kids in same place and circumstances.

Some people have affections towards some choices- one might prefer doing things for others other one for himself. Not everyone are same and not everything depends on what is around us.
Individual with disorder as you named it - was Doflamingo in this case ? I think that Rosi and his parents were people with disorder by your definition as they were only ones that stood out in "good way" out of Celestial Dragons.

People that stand out too much always get opressed in some ways and that also shapes up whoever they will become or who they are.
Doflamingo stayed a Celestial Dragon as he was born one.

If Rosi said Mingo was born evil for me it only means that Doflamingo was born as Celestial Dragon and keept being one no matter what happened to him.
It was Rosi and his parents that were Different from people that were around them not Doflamingo.

And I do believe that some people no matter what they will go through will at some point turn into something they have affection for so to say. Its a matter of time and not always circumstances.
Some individuals are far more complex people than most, Doflamingo being example. So I like that it was said that Mingo was "born evil" as I take that as it was said.

And as King Cannon said you are simplifying things a bit.

hosemisnuba

@Desperado:

Am I the only one who thinks that Oda is a little bit unsure about what person Doffy in the end truly is?

One chapter he's a noble demon, the other one a complete monster.
One chapter he's a woobie destroyer, next chapter he's evil by nature.
He boasts with great visions one time and just wants to blow up everyting the other time.
One time he presents extensive cosmopolitan knowledge, next time he's an arrogant snob.
One time he's Mr. knows it all, next time he makes one blunder after the other.

It feels like Oda checks this thread every chapter and fine tunes his personality according to the complains that this times Doffy was too cool/uncool smart/dumb flat/complicated (ir)redeemable haxor/weak.

Agreed. One moment, he wants to be pirate king, the next, he's off on the contrary ideals of the New Age Bellamy fan girls about. However, I think all these contrary traits that Dofla possess are intentional on Oda's part. It seems Oda want to portray Doflamingo as this scatterbrained sociopath who lies to people about himself, but in reality just want to destroy the world. At least that what I've gotten out of the scenes portraying him, and I love it.

DollarScholar

@hosemisnuba:

Agreed. One moment, he wants to be pirate king, the next, he's off on the contrary ideals of the New Age Bellamy fan girls about. However, I think all these contrary traits that Dofla possess are intentional on Oda's part. It seems Oda want to portray Doflamingo as this scatterbrained sociopath who lies to people about himself, but in reality just want to destroy the world. At least that what I've gotten out of the scenes portraying him, and I love it.

Well, his ephitet is "Heavenly Yaksha". Yakshas are benevolent spirits in hindu myth, who act as caretakers of national treasures and are often portrayed as having dual or multiple personalities. So it is probably intentional.

hosemisnuba

@DollarScholar:

Well, his ephitet is "Heavenly Yaksha". Yakshas are benevolent spirits in hindu myth, who act as caretakers of national treasures and are often portrayed as having dual or multiple personalities. So it is probably intentional.

That's awesome tidbit that gives so much explanation to Doffy's actions. Thanks for sharing.

ArmamentHero

@Warp:

Both of you can't see a difference between character traits and traits one gets because of physiology.
When child is born, he is a clean slate character-wise. He doesn't have opinions, likes, dislikes, political stance, worldview, morality etc.
All of that comes later, from his friends, parents, peers, postman, god, tv, whatever.

If child is born with what is considered disorder, he doesn't get "evil" "asocial" "violent" "unemotional" etc as his traits, life is not The Sims. He just sees world differently, experiences things differently and gets completely different results, which most people without such disorder might consider asocial and wrong. Then such person might get help with ajusting to society, or learn to live society rules, or might not. Even in OP - people can be born with or without COC, but one can be strongest without it, or crying shadow of former self with it. Depends on experiences.

Just like I said in the very beginning, nature is the factor, but most of the personality is formed by outside influence, and same child in two different environments can grow into two completely different people. No such thing as "born evil".

I understand completely between inherited traits and nurtured traits. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Being "Born Evil", is a common thing to say regarding those who commit atrocities out in the world. I was referring to the fact, that everyone is born with traits that allow one to cope to the many changing situations of growing up. However, they also have traits that don't allow them to cope to changes and the brain will automatically create a mechanism for you to cope. That is a natural thing for the brain to do and that plays a big part in one's personality. My opinion is just one of many.

hosemisnuba

Doffy told Monet he wants to be pirate king. Doffy tells Bellamy that he doesn't believe in dreams, which is at odds with what he tells Monet. Doffy is certainly one hell of a two-faced joker, that's for certain.

King Cannon

@Warp:

Just like I said in the very beginning, nature is the factor, but most of the personality is formed by outside influence, and same child in two different environments can grow into two completely different people. No such thing as "born evil".

Well, Doflamingo seems to disagree.

Not that it matters to the real life discussion.

Kizuchan

@King:

Well, Doflamingo seems to disagree.

Not that it matters to the real life discussion.

Yeah, and Luffy retorts it instantly. Not everything what a character says is always to be taken as trustworthy, we saw Bellamy change. It's called unreliable narrator - a character's POV, not what the author wants to say.

King Cannon

@Kizuchan:

Yeah, and Luffy retrorts it instantly. Not everything what a character says is always to be taken as trustworthy and we saw Bellamy change. It's called unreliable narrator.

No, it's called different opinions. Luffy and Doula see Bellamy in completely different ways.

One could argue that with a mindset like that, Doula would actually agree with Rosi about being born evil.

Not that he would care, though.

Kizuchan

This post is deleted!

Kizuchan

@King:

No, it's called different opinions. Luffy and Doula see Bellamy in completely different ways.

One could argue that with a mindset like that, Doula would actually agree with Rosi about being born evil.

Not that he would care, though.

That's actually even more interesting. Is he convinced that he's born evil and therefore is doing this? Love what Dofla's character has brought to the table and I really don't want it to turn back into simplified, "oh, he's just evil". I love complexity and I'm sad when people want to narrow it down to a box, it happens a lot with complex characters.

ArmamentHero

@Kizuchan:

That's actually even more interesting. Is he convinced that he's born evil and therefore is doing this? Love what Dofla's character has brought to the table and I really don't want it to turn back into simplified, "oh, he's just evil". I love complexity and I'm sad when people want to narrow it down to a box, it happens a lot with complex characters.

Doffy is complex, I already said that, and yes, he is fun to discuss about.

KageKageKing

@DollarScholar:

What? i checked the Wikia page for World Nobles and it doesnt even mention the Marquis de Sades novel. I read the novel (and saw the film adaption) in highschool and made a connection.

Then, that is just some damn coincidence.
That is weird, I swear there was a mention at the trivia section. Wiki edition is a shit.

Kizuchan

Law and Corazon aren't half-bad either.
There's a lot of things like that I like about this flashback. Even the small details like Law's glare at Baby 5.

Monkey D

@hosemisnuba:

Doffy told Monet he wants to be pirate king. Doffy tells Bellamy that he doesn't believe in dreams, which is at odds with what he tells Monet. Doffy is certainly one hell of a two-faced joker, that's for certain.

Unless I've forgotten something, we never seen Doffy telling Monet that he wants to be the pirate king. It's Monet by herself who's saying that he'll be the pirate king, just like Ace was saying that he wanted Newgate to be the pirate king even though it wasn't whitebeard ambition.

And as Rocinante said : only the top executives know about Doffy's madness, so I think they are the only ones who know about is real goal.

hosemisnuba

@Monkey:

Unless I've forgotten something, we never seen Doffy telling Monet that he wants to be the pirate king. It's Monet by herself who's saying that he'll be the pirate king, just like Ace was saying that he wanted Newgate to be the pirate king even though it wasn't whitebeard ambition.

And as Rocinante said : only the top executives know about Doffy's madness, so I think they are the only ones who know about is real goal.

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from. I was pointing out how Doffy possibly has multi-personality disorder. What I mentioned, the Yaksha thing Dollar Scholar pointed out seem to encourage this idea.

Vectorkov

@aori:

So kinda off topic, but I'm reading the recap page in tvtropes and someone is claiming it was implied the angry mob with pitch forks and fire were considering to let the Donquixote children go in the flashback. Am I blind? Was there an actual panel of this??? Why am I still going to tvtropes????

I don't see any indication they were considering letting them go. The mob just wanted to keep them alive so the torture could continue.

Buggy D. Clown

You know how DD said he wants to destroy this world of CDs…then why does he hate Ds?

on another note, calling it now. DD awakens his CoC during the flashback as a kid and knocks out everyone

juiceduphody3315

@Buggy:

You know how DD said he wants to destroy this world of CDs…then why does he hate Ds?

on another note, calling it now. DD awakens his CoC during the flashback as a kid and knocks out everyone

It's not that he hates the D's but would use laws D for his own personal turmoil. I hate the world government and I have their greatest fear in my possession

ibrahim2712

@Buggy:

You know how DD said he wants to destroy this world of CDs…then why does he hate Ds?

on another note, calling it now. DD awakens his CoC during the flashback as a kid and knocks out everyone

Looks so confusing when you abbreviate everything.

Buggy D. Clown

I hope Rosi is alive somewhere still! maybe as Revolutionary? would be cool. but i doubt hes alive lol I like his character :(

sabinis

@dzsovani:

now dzsovani gives you some interesting informations about OP chapter 764

maybe you didn't noticed these… for example corazon's nagi nagi no mi fruit's name resembles me a harry potter character who was nagini the snake. Not to mention corazon also has a sneaky personality!

But this is just one xample among the few that I collected,

It was a great chapter!

You are trying hard to promote yourself- I give you that

If you have one like after 184 people seeing your video it means you have to improve your next review and not post for 3rd or 4th time link to same one.

Also how does Corazon have sneaky personality ? What do you mean by that?

aori

@Light:

You know how it is with mainstream sites like TV tropes. There's always the small bunch of users who treat their headcanon as objective undeniable facts even if the series themselves show otherwise. You should just see what they write about Lemongrab from Adventure Time!

@Vectorkov:

I don't see any indication they were considering letting them go. The mob just wanted to keep them alive so the torture could continue.

Haha thanks guys! It probably is someone bsing the page :/ Fanon is one thing, but claiming it's canon is not cool man.
Also I reas the Lemongrab section in AT and it brings a tear to my eye. Draco in leather pants indeed!

Monquito

@Buggy:

I hope Rosi is alive somewhere still! maybe as Revolutionary? would be cool. but i doubt hes alive lol I like his character :(

Flashbacks are the most lethal thing in the whole series, but Sabo survived to it, why not Cora??

Tangaroa

@aori:

Haha thanks guys! It probably is someone bsing the page :/ Fanon is one thing, but claiming it's canon is not cool man.
Also I reas the Lemongrab section in AT and it brings a tear to my eye. Draco in leather pants indeed!

there's definitely some issues with the Lemongrab fandom there.

Monquito

@hosemisnuba:

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from. I was pointing out how Doffy possibly has multi-personality disorder. What I mentioned, the Yaksha thing Dollar Scholar pointed out seem to encourage this idea.

I get it, all of the politics from my country are like that.

Imma change this place, just give me your vote people!!

Lol, nope Imma be stealing all of your money.

Galaxy 9000

Clean raw for the chapter: http://www.mediafire.com/download/enk3ec4bbo513n6/One_Piece_Chapter_764_Clean_Raw.rar

aori

@Tangaroa:

there's definitely some issues with the Lemongrab fandom there.

Yeeeah, I can't tell if people are trolling or serious about their opinions about them. Oh well, not the fandom we're currently discussing in :'D

@Kizuchan:

That's actually even more interesting. Is he convinced that he's born evil and therefore is doing this? Love what Dofla's character has brought to the table and I really don't want it to turn back into simplified, "oh, he's just evil". I love complexity and I'm sad when people want to narrow it down to a box, it happens a lot with complex characters.

@ArmamentHero:

Doffy is complex, I already said that, and yes, he is fun to discuss about.

Doffs' character is interesting since people's opinion of him vary from person to person. I'm at the opinion he wasn't born evil, but rather taught and clung to it while Rocinante took to following his parent's steps. Two children who grew up in the same household can have very different outlooks and personalities due to natural causes and outside influence. I'm one of them. Anyway at the moment we only have Rocinante's word for Doffy being born evil and a few flashback chapters on their personalities to fully make out what makes them tick. As Desperado said, Oda is currently ping ponging between different perspectives of Doflamingo - though the Yaksha tidbit from DollarScholar fits, since his motivations and personality are all over the place. Never stop confusing us Oda!

Light Bro

@aori:

Haha thanks guys! It probably is someone bsing the page :/ Fanon is one thing, but claiming it's canon is not cool man.
Also I reas the Lemongrab section in AT and it brings a tear to my eye. Draco in leather pants indeed!

@Tangaroa:

there's definitely some issues with the Lemongrab fandom there.

Um… I was also talking about his haters... :pouty: Personally I like Lemongrab.

! Well I did before Too Old.

Guess it's the same for every issue on internet. Christians and atheists, Bronies and not-Bronies, there's always those nutballs who take things too far and make the reasonable ones look bad.

Warp Predator

@sabinis:

…

I'm just talking from socio-genetic point ofview, yes I'm not mentioning some factors like types of nervous system, but that is not the point. I only mentioned disorders because they were brought up and are good example of inherited biology influence on one's personality growth, not because I think any character in the story have them(most likely no). People don't have affections to certain moral alignments. Good and evil are at best moral constructs, and depend on a culture one being raised in. CD don't see themselves as evil after all, and since Homing didn't ran away when he was young, one can safely say that for most of his life he was ok (if a little uneasy) with their lifestyle. He wasn't born good. Roci only follows ideals of his parents and most likely his marine superiors so he sees Dofla as a monster, because he despises those ideals.

I doubt Dofla would have been as strong and determined if he stayed a CD.
I also doubt he would have been a pirate at all, if for example, was switched with, let's say, Kohza, at birth.

@ArmamentHero:

…

Yes, I just don’t see that coping mechasim as a trait. It’s a mechanism of cognitive learning where outside stimuli creates a reaction, but in my opinion those reactions also depend on existing experiences, not in some inborn patterns. This is truly some divisive argument in psychology.

@King:

Doflamingo seems to disagree.

Not that it matters to the real life discussion.

Let’s not take everything people say to insult Bellamy as a fact.

Lorenor

lol at oda claiming that person with a hat was sabo just to look more scheming

ArmamentHero

Irony is what happens when the Michelin man is run over by his own tires.

Tangaroa

@Light:

Um… I was also talking about his haters... :pouty: Personally I like Lemongrab.

! Well I did before Too Old.

I like him. But looking at those pages the real vitriol wasn't with the haters, it was between those who had very certain ideas what Lemongrab was and how all differing views were unacceptable.

Seen people disagree here but the arguements are a lot more civil, if not always rational.

Shadowgreed

@Lorenor:

lol at oda claiming that person with a hat was sabo just to look more scheming

Oh please, it might be Sabo and that;s not an argument I (Holy shit I'm drunk)

ibrahim2712

People are saying Dr. Kureha from Drum Island might have been the one to save Law. I think this too, considering she knew about the D's, and it would be amazing plot connecting by Oda.

desa

@ibrahim2712:

People are saying Dr. Kureha from Drum Island might have been the one to save Law. I think this too, considering she knew about the D's, and it would be amazing plot connecting by Oda.

Since she mentioned Roger I think it is clear she heard about the D from him. And I will take the wild guess that Law won't be going to the grand line before he leaves by himself.

King Cannon

@ibrahim2712:

People are saying Dr. Kureha from Drum Island might have been the one to save Law. I think this too, considering she knew about the D's, and it would be amazing plot connecting by Oda.

Don't think Law and Rosi have ever entered the Grand Line, especially not in that small boat.

BeariousJones

Has it been discussed how Homing, Doflamingo, and Rocinante even could escape the villagers? Don't see the villagers changing their mind after Doflamingo's declaration to kill them all. I would think someone would have had to save them. Vergo perhaps? Or maybe Kaido?

Basslion

@BeariousJones:

Has it been discussed how Homing, Doflamingo, and Rocinante even could escape the villagers? Don't see the villagers changing their mind after Doflamingo's declaration to kill them all. I would think someone would have had to save them. Vergo perhaps? Or maybe Kaido?

I can't see an 8 years old Vergo saving Doflamingo's family in that situation. Perharps that's when Doflamingo awoken his Conqueror's Haki, kinda like how Ace did.

Razh

I got the feeling that last flashback of Dofla threatening everyone didn't quite show exactly what Corazon meant when he called Dofla a monster.

Well, it's either Conquerors or help from authorities or something. Mom seems to be absent, maybe she ran away to get help.

! Or she's getting raped somewhere.