Might as well start saying Luffy will turn bad and start killing random people too. Fujitora's character has been established as someone who cares for civilians and has his own brand of justice.
Chapter 751: "Sabo vs Admiral Fujitora"
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Might as well start saying Luffy will turn bad and start killing random people too. Fujitora's character has been established as someone who cares for civilians and has his own brand of justice.
Fujitora reminds me of Garp. No matter how desperate they want to save someone, they are bound to their loyalty to the World Government. Garp had a chance to save Ace, but I think it had to do with the loyalty, or he wanted to prove to the world that D. can be good guys too. If anything, Ace was more of a grandson to Garp than Luffy was. So that just goes to say that being a navy officer means they have to sacrifice lives they care about.
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seems pretty simple to me
we thought that dofla was an effective tool. He kept an important country under control, he did our dirty business for us and we could overlook his criminal activities as long he was kept his head low. But it was all a lie. He was using the country as a cover to supply one of the emperors with weapons that can be used against us. When his plot was revealed he turned on the country and shamed the entire wg by having on of our assets turn on innocent civlians in such a public. And if this wasn't enough he couldn't handle our biggest thorn. The strawhat crew. Who also just happened to be in an alliance with another one of our warlords. Law. I would have stopped them all but the revolutionary army also turned up and naturally as the biggest threat to world peace i had to go after them especially after i found out that the second in command was not only there but had just acquired a logia fruit
clearly the last of many incidents is the final proof we need that the warlord system has become obsolete and more of a hindrance then help to us. It's time we got rid of it
Fujitora in no way intended for Law/Luffy to take down Doflamingo in order to make a point about Warlord incpometence; he himself actively tried to prevent them doing that, so that point of yours makes no sense.
Now, first question for this "Fujitora wants to incriminate Warlords" plan: Once Doflamingo was exposed and started his birdcage of death, did he need any more incriminating? Does Dressrosa need to die down to the last child before people get the idea of what Doflamingo did? Is there some magic barrier between 500 families being puppeteered to murder each other being dismissable, and 1000 being Warlord-system abolishingly awful?
Secondly, the thing I'm not getting here is: Lets say this is all a big plan by Fujitora. Lets say he accomplishes his objective of capturing Law and Luffy, and his other opponents. How exactly is the situation resolved? I trust Doflamingo needs to be captured in the end?
So basically;
-Fujitora follows Doflamingos plan, targetting anyone with a desire to fight Doflamingo
-Meanwhile, Dressrosa bleeds and is burned to cinders
-Fujitora defeats EVERYONE with a desire to fight Doflamingo- Then, once he has defeated all potential allies, Fujitora then turns the battered remains of his troops around, and goes to fight Doflamingos family alone
- Doflamingos family, despite being in top condition and having had ample time to set up Fujitora-countermeasures (like Doffy said he would), is defeated
- Fujitora drags Doflamingo to the WG, then points at a completely lifeless Dressrosa and goes "Look! Look at something a Warlord did! Please ignore that I did everything possible to enable him to do it!"
what i am more curious is where did you reach the conclusion that he is some bleeding heart?
Casino scene: Fujitora lets Luffy go. Seems like a nice guy.
Outside coliseum: Fujitora summons reinforcements, expressly states that he wants to protect civilians. Seems like a nice guy.
Meeting with Doflamingo: Only reason Fujitora wants to target Luffy is his assumption that Luffy will level dressrosa in his attack on Doflamingo. Restates his mission to protect civilians. Still seems like a mostly nice guy.
Summons meteor onto dressrosa, destroys buildings: Fujitora is flustered and worried, regrets what he did because he caused collateral damage and endangered civilians. Seems like a nice guy.Not the kind of guy who decides that "yeah, this countries citizens murdering each other horiffically is totally an acceptable sacrifice for my agenda
why would he order his marines to go after dofla? They would just get slaughtered. The only ones they can hope to defeat are low level pirates.
Like luffy, law, sabo, and the coliseum fighters?
And again when it comes to the wg the most important enemy is dragon. Going after his second in command trumps pretty much anything
Fujitora is not going after sabo. Sabo targeted fujitora, who was trying to prevent people attacking doflamingo, and resolving the situation.
not to mention that if he wants to he can even outright say the truth. I can't see akainu losing an admiral level asset over civilian casualties. If anything he would probably approve the bloody way fujitora made his point
its not a point if you intentionally let doflamingo perform the massacre
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What's it matter if he's contradicting his previous statements, I known people that do that every fucking day it's called being human.
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@MJR.:
Assassins who lure somebody who is out of their league to this "shortcut" in which suprisingly DD appears.
I honestly was not surprised.
But considering Abdulla and Jeet, I was surprised.
And Daz, you are too good a debator. LOL
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To me it makes sense thatIF (big if) his plan all along was to incriminate Doflamingo to make an argument for his goal then he'd go around as if he cares about civilians when he's actually not as much. (which works well for his image as an admiral and to fool doffy)
or another option, as suggested, is that up until some point he had civilians in a high priority while still wanting to incriminate doffy but after that certain point his priorities changed.
Honestly, until we'd get more information it is hard to tell what was and is Issho's agenda.
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Sooo really Fuji should just ignore direct orders from the fleet admiral and take down doflamingo and his family allowing straw hat and law to get away ( his main objective if you have forgotten) and take down the shicibukai with direct ties to the WG which would piss them off. Good story telling would be Fuji disobeying his higher ups for his on justice….sounds like a pirate move to me which he is not. Fuji is in a fucked up situation. He has a Shit load of dangerous pirates and the second in command of the RA on one island. He is a blind recruit not a kizaru. He is also not the type of character to act on a situation and cause more chaos. I see what oda is doing to his character I'm sure a lot of people will not see until oda completely fleshes out his story.
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@Daz:
Lots of really good stuff.
Thank you, good sir, for not being a insane person and bringing good arguments into the fray. It brightens my day.
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Sooo really Fuji should just ignore direct orders from the fleet admiral and take down doflamingo and his family allowing straw hat and law to get away ( his main objective if you have forgotten) and take down the shicibukai with direct ties to the WG which would piss them off.
You will now point to us a page of Sakazuki ordering Fuji to go exclusively after Straw Hat and Law regardless of circumstances, and completly ignore anything Doflamingo does.
Or it can be a word baloon. I don't care.
I will be here for a while, I can wait.
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Thank you, good sir, for not being a insane person and bringing good arguments into the fray. It brightens my day.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
You will now point to us a page of Sakazuki ordering Fuji to go exclusively after Straw Hat and Law regardless of circumstances, and completly ignore anything Doflamingo does.
Or it can be a word baloon. I don't care.
I will be here for a while, I can wait.
Well he didn't say that but Sakazuki said that he couldn't do anything about the fact that DD has immunity.
So it did bother him. I guess.
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Thank you, good sir, for not being a insane person and bringing good arguments into the fray. It brightens my day.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
You will now point to us a page of Sakazuki ordering Fuji to go exclusively after Straw Hat and Law regardless of circumstances, and completly ignore anything Doflamingo does.
Or it can be a word baloon. I don't care.
I will be here for a while, I can wait.
Well I figured it wouldn't be nessicary, I'm sure you read the manga….well maybe just look at the nice art. Besides I'm sure the panel is already posted.
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Well I figured it wouldn't be nessicary, I'm sure you read the manga….well maybe just look at the nice art. Besides I'm sure the panel is already posted.
You aren't arguing against his case by saying that lol.
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Not even remotely similar. Aokiji and Garp both had orders from their superiors, and both were deeply internally conflicted about what they had to do. Garp even let himself be beaten by Luffy. They didn't stand by and watch terrible things happen, they were in a position where they literally couldn't do anything about it. After all, the Marines were the ones perpetrating the chaos in those instances.
Ok….let me get your logic right. You here are trying to argue that following orders is a better excuse for standing by and letting horrible things happen then letting horrible things happen because you believe that this will truly lead to something good one day?
You know what that is?
A bad writing.
And I mean seriously bad. 180 turn of character, with no foreshadowing, no characterization point towards it, nothing?
People don't have the off switch for their morality, especially in the works of fiction. In real life also. It's breaking basic rules of psychology, dammit. And storytelling.
If it really is simply callous act on his part, then that is a serious miss-step by Oda.
Actually it's a pretty regular twist. You are just so emotionally invested in the character literally due to two sentences that you can't seem to grasp the idea that his character may be more complex they he first appears and not as morally pure. Besides he may be strong but he is not a Mary Sue(hopefully). Even if he heads directly towards Dofla what makes you think he can easily dispatch him? There will be civilian casualties either way. Fujitora may just be thinking about thebig picture
Again, the old gambler wouldn't have so many people hurt.
And if a pirate take down one of my Schichibukai , in the best case I decide to call the remainings: the 6 Schichibukai :blink:. In the worst case I hire a new guy stronger than the previous one.
I'm not sure I would get rid of Mihawk's service because a damn flamingo is going wild in his cage.Again. People will get hurt either way
Politics is not so easy. The WG is in a delicate position and the Schichibukai have proven on more then one occasion to be not just completley unrealiable but also a massive problem but also a hindrance and in many ways an emarbassment. I can easily see Akainu deciding to disabnd if he has even more reasons. Especially if the new recruitment has brought a few more marines close to Fujitora's caliber. Combine this with Pacifistas and you might as well scrap the Schibukai
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Ok….let me get your logic right. You here are trying to argue that following orders is a better excuse for standing by and letting horrible things happen then letting horrible things happen because you believe that this will truly lead to something good one day?
I don't think you're grasping the nuances of the situations here. All I'm saying is that there's a big difference between standing by and letting bad things happen due to circumstances, and actively perpetrating those bad things. All I was trying to say is that you can't compare Fujitora being an ass and actively letting civilians get hurt when he could do something about it, to either Aokiji or Garp's past situations.
Aokiji and Garp didn't have a choice. Also, following orders? Jaguar D Saul was a high ranking Marine who didn't follow orders because he felt it was morally incorrect, and the poor giant lost his life for it. Were Garp to have actively gone against the Admirals by protecting Ace, were Aokiji to have prevented the Buster Call from happening on Ohara, it would have been considered treason. Politics are not so easy, after all.
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I actually dont have a problem with the marines getting beat down. Think about it. This is the new world where the Yonkou rule supreme that means that this half of the grand line is dominated by pirates.It's also the strongest sea in the world and as a result of being ruled by pirates the strongest people there should indeed be pirates. I mean The marines seemed very powerful in paradise becuase they were in control of that region of the grandline to a degree. They dont control the new world therefore it makes sense in my opinion that we see them get outclassed on the regular unless it's an elite marine.
Long story short this is the big shots pirates playground of the one piece world so I would expect marines to struggle here unless they are top notch. People like bastile and smoker deserve to be trashed because being kinda strong isnt good enough in this sea. I think it just adds legitimacy to what was said about the new world , which was basically there are beastly strong guys everywhere.
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I don't think you're grasping the nuances of the situations here. All I'm saying is that there's a big difference between standing by and letting bad things happen due to circumstances, and actively perpetrating those bad things. All I was trying to say is that you can't compare Fujitora being an ass and actively letting civilians get hurt when he could do something about it, to either Aokiji or Garp's past situations.
Aokiji and Garp didn't have a choice. Also, following orders? Jaguar D Saul was a high ranking Marine who didn't follow orders because he felt it was morally incorrect, and the poor giant lost his life for it. Were Garp to have actively gone against the Admirals by protecting Ace, were Aokiji to have prevented the Buster Call from happening on Ohara, it would have been considered treason. Politics are not so easy, after all.
Not really. Both stem from the same place. Belief for the greater good.
And Fujitora can't protect civilians from getting hurt. He is not all powerful. Even if he went after Dofla the minute the bird cage was activated there would still be slaughter in the entire country and their battle would also cost quite a few lives. All he can do is make the best of a bad situation and use it for the greater good
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Well I figured it wouldn't be nessicary, I'm sure you read the manga….well maybe just look at the nice art. Besides I'm sure the panel is already posted.
Yes, I read the manga.
And therefore I do posses the knowledge that there exists no panel of Akainu ordering Fujitora ANYTHING.
So stop with baseless conjecture.
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I actually dont have a problem with the marines getting beat down. Think about it. This is the new world where the Yonkou rule supreme that means that this half of the grand line is dominated by pirates.It's also the strongest sea in the world and as a result of being ruled by pirates the strongest people there should indeed be pirates. I mean The marines seemed very powerful in paradise becuase they were in control of that region of the grandline to a degree. They dont control the new world therefore it makes sense in my opinion that we see them get outclassed on the regular unless it's an elite marine.
Long story short this is the big shots pirates playground of the one piece world so I would expect marines to struggle here unless they are top notch. People like bastile and smoker deserve to be trashed because being kinda strong isnt good enough in this sea. I think it just adds legitimacy to what was said about the new world , which was basically there are beastly strong guys everywhere.
Which is exactly why during war of the best, where on the side of pirates there were EXCLUSIVELY New World Pirates, not one non-giant VA has fallen. Nobody also managed to knock out an Admiral.
For fucks sake people. The lack of loses among high ranking non-giant marines, when they fought the strongest Yonkou crew, should speak for itself.
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It will force Luffy to fight purely with Haki and should be interesting. I am hoping that his Haki training with Rayleigh will make him shine. The whole situation makes it look like Luffy is in real danger, if Luffy's haki is as strong as Sabo's it could go very badly for Doffy/Clone. He may be thinking that Luffy is now weak without his fruit abilities (hence the water trap), if he does think that he is in for a shock.
Being in the water doesn't mean he loses his DF powers. Just like in Kokoyashi when Luffy was underwater and he could still stretch. For the effects of the water to work (not being able to move) the DF user have to half of it's body into the water.
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@MJR.:
Well he didn't say that but Sakazuki said that he couldn't do anything about the fact that DD has immunity.
So it did bother him. I guess.
Actually, he doesn't even say that.
He was annoyed by the fact that his resignation was false, and went to speak with Gorosei about it.
All I see every I guys jumping to conclusion about how awesome Doflamingo protection from goverment is, even though there isn't a thing that suggests that.
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Actually it's a pretty regular twist. You are just so emotionally invested in the character literally due to two sentences that you can't seem to grasp the idea that his character may be more complex they he first appears and not as morally pure. Besides he may be strong but he is not a Mary Sue(hopefully). Even if he heads directly towards Dofla what makes you think he can easily dispatch him? There will be civilian casualties either way. Fujitora may just be thinking about thebig picture
If Doflamingo is strong enough that Admiral, arguably the strongest person on the entire island, cannot dispatch of him, then how can he hope Luffy will, and make it integral part of him plan, as you said?
And since when making a character a walking contradiction was a sympton of complexity?
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If Doflamingo is strong enough that Admiral, arguably the strongest person on the entire island, cannot dispatch of him, then how can he hope Luffy will, and make it integral part of him plan, as you said?
And since when making a character a walking contradiction was a sympton of complexity?
Maybe Fujitora can win against Dofla directly. This is by no means sure since in case you all don't remember Fujitora is not a logia and Dofla made Jozu(a man who is close to Admiral level when it comes to fighting skill and power) his little bitch without a problem. But even if he manages to beat Dofla and his family it will be a hard fight that will take a lot out of him and Fujitora doesn't have any real back up that can help him afterwards. Which means that the other gladiators, Strawhat and Law can very well turn on him and finish him or the very least they will escape and wreak havoc all over the world
If you don't think that Fujitora is using this as part of his plan to take out the Warlords fine. But when you don't have the numbers and the power standing on the sides while his enemies ravage each other and then taking them out when they are weakened is just the best strategy and anyone halfway competent would do the same in Fujitora's shoes
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Maybe Fujitora can win against Dofla directly. This is by no means sure since in case you all don't remember Fujitora is not a logia and Dofla made Jozu(a man who is close to Admiral level when it comes to fighting skill and power) his little bitch without a problem. But even if he manages to beat Dofla and his family it will be a hard fight that will take a lot out of him and Fujitora doesn't have any real back up that can help him afterwards. Which means that the other gladiators, Strawhat and Law can very well turn on him and finish him or the very least they will escape and wreak havoc all over the world
If you don't think that Fujitora is using this as part of his plan to take out the Warlords fine. But when you don't have the numbers and the power standing on the sides while his enemies ravage each other and then taking them out when they are weakened is just the best strategy and anyone halfway competent would do the same in Fujitora's shoes
Which is exactly why he targets one side, the one that you say is the weaker one.
He is not playing them against each other, he is explicitly going after Luffy and Law and ignoring Doflamingo. What you are saying is not represented by his action in the recent chapters.
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Actually, he doesn't even say that.
He was annoyed by the fact that his resignation was false, and went to speak with Gorosei about it.
All I see every I guys jumping to conclusion about how awesome Doflamingo protection from goverment is, even though there isn't a thing that suggests that.
You're overestimating Akainu. He's not going to speak withe Gorosei about it, he's going to go maybe whine like the dog he is and then get a pat on the head and scratch behind the ears for following their plan so nicely. And he'll be told to ignore any reports from Dressrosa like a good lap dog.
Doflamingo has plenty of government clout. He pulls CP0 to cover his ass, something Law directly implies could only be done by someone with stature along the lines of a Celestial Dragon. Hell, Doflamingo specifically stated he gets his orders from above the Marines. And he wasn't afraid to tell the World Gov't "you need me more than I need you." Why? Cause they probably don't want him to reveal that a CD could possibly become a pirate. Cause they're THAT scared of breaking their image.
Fujitora is in tough spot. Any move he makes against Doflamingo without the evidence he needs will likely lead to him being dismissed or executed. Doflamingo holds that much sway, and if Fujitora knows too much about "Doffy's past" then the Gorosei will want him just as out of the way as Doffy does. And he has no idea how he'll hold up against Doffy considering the Pink Bird sort of clipped our Purple Tiger's meteor claws.
The only way he can get the evidence he needs? Find Law and Luffy and ask them exactly what the hell they're doing. That's why he's trying to apprehend them. Finding out that Doffy is dealing with a Yonko and fueling wars all over the globe might actually gain the Gorosei's attention, or at least Fuji going public with that information would shame the Gorosei enough to do something about the Shichibukai.
*I'll grant you this, Oda should have at least shown Fujitora telling his men to attempt and bring down the civilians inflicted with Parasite via non-lethal means. Would give the 3000 normal Marines more purpose, and show us Fujitora is standing by his earlier sayings.
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You're overestimating Akainu. He's not going to speak withe Gorosei about it, he's going to go maybe whine like the dog he is and then get a pat on the head and scratch behind the ears for following their plan so nicely. And he'll be told to ignore any reports from Dressrosa like a good lap dog.
… Are we talking about the same Sakazuki?
Doflamingo has plenty of government clout. He pulls CP0 to cover his ass, something Law directly implies could only be done by someone with stature along the lines of a Celestial Dragon. Hell, Doflamingo specifically stated he gets his orders from above the Marines. And he wasn't afraid to tell the World Gov't "you need me more than I need you." Why? Cause they probably don't want him to reveal that a CD could possibly become a pirate. Cause they're THAT scared of breaking their image.
And that's what sixth level of Impel Down is for.
Fujitora is in tough spot. Any move he makes against Doflamingo without the evidence he needs will likely lead to him being dismissed or executed. Doflamingo holds that much sway, and if Fujitora knows too much about "Doffy's past" then the Gorosei will want him just as out of the way as Doffy does. And he has no idea how he'll hold up against Doffy considering the Pink Bird sort of clipped our Purple Tiger's meteor claws.
Then why openly admit he is going to make the moves against him?
The only way he can get the evidence he needs? Find Law and Luffy and ask them exactly what the hell they're doing. That's why he's trying to apprehend them. Finding out that Doffy is dealing with a Yonko and fueling wars all over the globe might actually gain the Gorosei's attention, or at least Fuji going public with that information would shame the Gorosei enough to do something about the Shichibukai.
A) And why exactly couldn't he question goverment agents and marines that worked in his secret underground basement for years about his dealings?
B) How would he know either Law or Luffy posses any information that can help him without reading the manga?
C) And even if he does that, he will still have to deal with Birdcage that stops him from talking to his superiors, which means Doflamingo must be going down. And if he plans on using the informations to expose him, he will have to deal with accusations of helping that very warlord in his time of need.
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@Daz:
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I think his plan could be the just as you described but without arresting Doflamingo. Then he can have a point: "I did obey orders, I did obey the sistem, and look what happened. Hey Akainu, what if we disobey the Gorousei?". He isn't just showing Dofla and Shicki's are bad, but also that the Government has to change.
Obviously, he is naïf about Doflamingo, but hey, Doffy is naïf too if he really thinks he can stop an admiral in the current situation.Also, I think I finally understand what's wrong with his character. He is indeed presented as a good fella, but just immediatly has to struggle to make maquiavellic decisions. But there's really no struggle simply because it is being done way too fast in the middle of too many things, so the audience can't neither emphasize nor completly understand his troubled mind. If he had just been revealed during PH, we could have had time enough to see clearly he is changing in mid-arc. Just as if Vergo had been present during the war his condition as a traitor would have awaken more feelings, and not just a wasted oportunity for a great character.
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… Are we talking about the same Sakazuki?
Yes we are. Everything Akainu has done has been because he follows a sense of justice that's directly fed to him by the Gorosei. Jesus, he killed a whole ship of innocent people because he was drinking their kool-aid. There's a reason they wanted him as Fleet Admiral. Cause he'll take the fight where they want it, against Yonkou and other pirates, not against the morally questionable acts of both the World Gov't and the Shichibukai.
And that's what sixth level of Impel Down is for.
Only works if they can get him down there before his story is revealed. And let's just say that Fujitora chooses to reveal how much he knows to someone other than his superior first… let's say he chooses to reveal said choice information at Reverie.
Then why openly admit he is going to make the moves against him?
He wants Doffy to be overly cautious. People make mistakes when they're overly cautious. Right now Fuji doesn't know as much as we reader do, he's looking for the that info. He wants Doffy to slip up, he wants the puppeteer to get tangled in his own strings.
A) And why exactly couldn't he question goverment agents and marines that worked in his secret underground basement for years about his dealings?
B) How would he know either Law or Luffy posses any information that can help him without reading the manga?
C) And even if he does that, he will still have to deal with Birdcage that stops him from talking to his superiors, which means Doflamingo must be going down. And if he plans on using the informations to expose him, he will have to deal with accusations of helping that very warlord in his time of need.
A) Gov't Agents won't report to him. Marines maybe, but then how much do they know about the Kaidou factor? The dwarves were the ones working on the SAD and SMILE. And Law's the one who knows the full extent of the operation. The toys would just know they move crates all day.
B) I think it's plain to see that Law is a smart individual and had a plan. You know… he had Caesar for a reason.
C) Helping until he gets the information required (which may be never, cause Sabo is sort of screwing up Fuji's plan, but hell Sabo doesn't know, and it's not like Fujitora can ignore a chance at the #2 revolutionary or the Gorosei will have his ass for that).
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Yes we are. Everything Akainu has done has been because he follows a sense of justice that's directly fed to him by the Gorosei. Jesus, he killed a whole ship of innocent people because he was drinking their kool-aid. There's a reason they wanted him as Fleet Admiral. Cause he'll take the fight where they want it, against Yonkou and other pirates, not against the morally questionable acts of both the World Gov't and the Shichibukai.
And, pray tell, how did you came to the conclusion that he would overlook their own dirt? He killed a marine, for desertion, breaking the law. He killed the entire ship of people, because their might have been a one among them that commited a crime. He almost killed Coby, because he mutinied against murdering more pirates.
How did you reached a conclusion that he would be any nicer to Gorosei for shielding criminals from him, when every marine showed thus far considers Shichibukai unreliable pirate scum?
Only works if they can get him down there before his story is revealed. And let's just say that Fujitora chooses to reveal how much he knows to someone other than his superior first… let's say he chooses to reveal said choice information at Reverie.
Which is exactly why no-one stopped Sakazuki from sending Fujitora after him in a first place.
He wants Doffy to be overly cautious. People make mistakes when they're overly cautious. Right now Fuji doesn't know as much as we reader do, he's looking for the that info. He wants Doffy to slip up, he wants the puppeteer to get tangled in his own strings.
That's a long shot, if I ever saw one. Remember that when he said that, the situation was completly under control. He had no way of knowing that Doflamingo would do anything else then simply wait for him to leave, and then A) Get rid off any evidence B) Use his ultra-awesome-special goverment connections to fire him.
A) Gov't Agents won't report to him. Marines maybe, but then how much do they know about the Kaidou factor? The dwarves were the ones working on the SAD and SMILE. And Law's the one who knows the full extent of the operation. The toys would just know they move crates all day.
B) I think it's plain to see that Law is a smart individual and had a plan. You know… he had Caesar for a reason.
C) Helping until he gets the information required (which may be never, cause Sabo is sort of screwing up Fuji's plan, but hell Sabo doesn't know, and it's not like Fujitora can ignore a chance at the #2 revolutionary or the Gorosei will have his ass for that).
A) Consider: Deals are getting made down there. And Toys could not speak about them. Why would Doffy's family workers and executives bother to hide secrets around them?
B) For all Fujitora knows, Ceasar is a bargain chip, because his is a crazy logia scientist. It doesn't have to imply anything more.
C) Fujitora can totaly ignore a chance at #2 revolutionary. It was exactly what he was doing before Sabo showed up right before him, blocking his path.
Also, what exactly would be Fujitora's plan in this if he doesn't get the evidence? And why Doffy would get a free pass at murdering the entire country? He isn't a celestial dragon anymore.
And, most importantly, let's Fuji kills him. What then? He is going to get punished for it? By whom? -
@Darth in a brief defense of Fujitora everything has gone straight to hell real fast.
He may not like working with Dofla but early on taking out Law & Luffy as fast as possible may have seemed the best way to keep the peace on Dressrosa and cause as little collateral harm as possible. His long term goal may have been to destroy the Shikibukai system but it wasn't his immediate priority.Since defeating Law and preparing to take down Luffy he's dealt with the sudden disruption of several hundred forgotten pirates reappearing, the resultant rioting, Birdcage cutting off all communication to the outside world and his own men going mad and attacking civillian and comrade alike, the cityscape radically changing shape and wandering around and now the #2 Revolutionary popping up in front of him.
The time frame for this is measured in hours.At the moment he's reacting. He has one problem in front of him and he's probably just dealing with that rather than having any plan.
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Ok….let me get your logic right. You here are trying to argue that following orders is a better excuse for standing by and letting horrible things happen then letting horrible things happen because you believe that this will truly lead to something good one day?
When is the Dressrosan corpse pile high enough that this is sure to "lead to something good"? And why Isn't it already?
Actually it's a pretty regular twist. You are just so emotionally invested in the character literally due to two sentences that you can't seem to grasp the idea that his character may be more complex they he first appears and not as morally pure.
Saturnchild, I made a sizeable post on the previous page, I'm curious to hear your opinion on it. It included a list of instances where Fujitora was presented as morally sound.
Again. People will get hurt either way
How many people would die if Fujitora targeted Doflamingo immediately following him being exposed, and activating the birdcage, compared to after the Stars game is over? I'm gonna go with "less".
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@Daz:
When is the Dressrosan corpse pile high enough that this is sure to "lead to something good"? And why Isn't it already?
That is, of course, unless Oda decides to troll us again, and Birdcage is going to be as effective at killing people as Shinokuni was.
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Maybe Fujitora can win against Dofla directly. This is by no means sure since in case you all don't remember Fujitora is not a logia and Dofla made Jozu(a man who is close to Admiral level when it comes to fighting skill and power) his little bitch without a problem.
Doflamingo restrained Jozus movement for a little while. That was it. Theres a pretty big gap from that, to controlling someone like commander Atomos.
But even if he manages to beat Dofla and his family it will be a hard fight that will take a lot out of him and Fujitora doesn't have any real back up that can help him afterwards. Which means that the other gladiators, Strawhat and Law can very well turn on him and finish him or the very least they will escape and wreak havoc all over the world.
…but if Fujitora goes through the gauntlet of fighting ALL the gladiators, Sabo, and the Law -Luffy alliance...then he most definetely will be fit for fight against Doflamingo afterwards? Compared to, say, Fujitora temporarily joining forces with the veritable army of people targeting Doflamingo, taking him down with increased efficiency, then turning on your allies afterwards if you are so inclined?
If you don't think that Fujitora is using this as part of his plan to take out the Warlords fine. But when you don't have the numbers and the power standing on the sides while his enemies ravage each other and then taking them out when they are weakened is just the best strategy and anyone halfway competent would do the same in Fujitora's shoes
Fujitora spending time and resources trying to defeat people sharing his own endgoal (defeat Doflamingo) is pretty much the least sound strategy possible.
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And, pray tell, how did you came to the conclusion that he would overlook their own dirt? He killed a marine, for desertion, breaking the law. He killed the entire ship of people, because their might have been a one among them that commited a crime. He almost killed Coby, because he mutinied against murdering more pirates.
How did you reached a conclusion that he would be any nicer to Gorosei for shielding criminals from him, when every marine showed thus far considers Shichibukai unreliable pirate scum?
Because he's shown as believing everything they say. Because he's he owes his current spot to them. Would it be delightful if he turned the tables on them and threw a military coup? Sure. I don't see it happening, but yes it would. Akainu is a soldier. Not a commander. He executes orders that he gets from higher up. He's really good at following, that's why they want him there. They don't want him to second guess their judgement.
Which is exactly why no-one stopped Sakazuki from sending Fujitora after him in a first place.
Hang on… are we talking about the same thing here. I'm talking about how if Fujitora doesn't reveal how much info he knows (providing he even gets it) will screw them if he reveals it later. This would imply the Gorosei is unaware that the Doflamingo is double dealing, thus no reason for them to prevent Fujitora's dispatch that was specifically geared towards not letting Law and Luffy run wild.
That's a long shot, if I ever saw one. Remember that when he said that, the situation was completly under control. He had no way of knowing that Doflamingo would do anything else then simply wait for him to leave, and then A) Get rid off any evidence B) Use his ultra-awesome-special goverment connections to fire him.
Oh I'm not saying Fujitora suspected he'd get his information by the time he got off the island. I'm saying he planted a seed in Doflamingo's head. The idea that not everyone was turning a blind-eye to his actions, and the idea that he'd better watch his tracks. Fujitora probably didn't plan on mass mayhem breaking loose in the form of birdcage (though he does specifically point out Luffy will cause havoc one way or another), but he wanted to send Doflamingo the clear message that he was waiting for the opportunity. That's it. Doflamingo can hardly influence the Gorosei to eliminate one of their top guns just cause he feels uncomfortable around him. As you pointed out, he's no longer a full time CD. (But if Fujitora threatened to broach the topic that Doflamingo was a CD turned pirate? Then you better believe the Gorosei would be like "Heeeey, Red Puppy. We need to put down the Purple Kitten, he was just a bad choice. Don't worry we'll buy you a new one, one that follows orders even better.)
A) Consider: Deals are getting made down there. And Toys could not speak about them. Why would Doffy's family workers and executives bother to hide secrets around them?
B) For all Fujitora knows, Ceasar is a bargain chip, because his is a crazy logia scientist. It doesn't have to imply anything more.
C) Fujitora can totaly ignore a chance at #2 revolutionary. It was exactly what he was doing before Sabo showed up right before him, blocking his path.
Also, what exactly would be Fujitora's plan in this if he doesn't get the evidence? And why Doffy would get a free pass at murdering the entire country? He isn't a celestial dragon anymore.
And, most importantly, let's Fuji kills him. What then? He is going to get punished for it? By whom?Deals are probably made in the castle. I doubt they're made at the docks amongst all the normal workers. The normal workers and shippers might have rumours about what's going on, but they would hardly know concrete facts.
Fujitora specifically points out that Caesar calls Doflamingo Joker. He knows somethings afoot.
He could ignore Sabo as long as their paths didn't cross. But once Sabo picked a fight with the Marines? "Well Sakazuki, the #2 revolutionary was beating up Bastille and using his mask to play charades, but I thought it more prudent to pursue a coarse of action that you and your bosses wouldn't like to know about."
Part of the reason Fujitora's speech knocked Maynard on his Spartan clothed ass was because it was profound to hear someone diss the World Gov't when the Fleet Admiral seems to be at their beck and call.
Now, do I know for a fact this was Oda's intention with Fujitora? No. I think we can agree Oda's just not being explicit enough with the character, but it makes a lot of sense given the story progression and clues we've been dropped along the way.
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Fuck this sabo shit
I wanna see the clash of conquerors in the next chapter.. -
I think Darth might be taking this all too serious.
It's a manga and I think we can jump to conclusions or think of crazy theories.
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You're overestimating Akainu. He's not going to speak withe Gorosei about it, he's going to go maybe whine like the dog he is and then get a pat on the head and scratch behind the ears for following their plan so nicely. And he'll be told to ignore any reports from Dressrosa like a good lap dog.
This is one of the best lines.
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@zeff:
Fuck this sabo shit
I wanna see the clash of conquerors in the next chapter..As much as i don't like saying it..
It's a clone maybe
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He killed the entire ship of people, because their might have been a one among them that commited a crime.
So you're practically agreeing with the guy that you're discussing with ahh. You can kill or let a bunch of innocent people die IF is for the greater good and will help humanity in the long run, right
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And now we've reached the part of the discussion where everyone realizes that Darth genuinely thinks that Akainu is a good guy.
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@Daz:
Fujitora spending time and resources trying to defeat people sharing his own endgoal (defeat Doflamingo) is pretty much the least sound strategy possible.
Wait, so when Fujitora said "I'm coming for you", what he meant was I'm going to take you down this arc Doflamingo and try to make you look like sinister monster in front of the WG, not I'm going to take ALL of you down in one single sweep, I just need to gather some info on you and expose it at the Reviere, so I'll help you deal with the Strawhats while I record every single step/mistake you make
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@Cyan:
And now we've reached the part of the discussion where everyone realizes that Darth genuinely thinks that Akainu is a good guy.
Ahh not even close
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So you're practically agreeing with the guy that you're discussing with ahh. You can kill or let a bunch of innocent people die IF is for the greater good and will help humanity in the long run, right
Fools… I'm dealing with fools here.
The issue is not of letting bunch of innocent people die for the greater good here.
The issue is with inconsistent characterisation of Fujitora who was very clearly shown to be NOT like Akainu.
Not to mention, even if it really was his plan, contrary to all of his earlier characterisation, it is a stupid plan. And I mean Bleach/Naruto level of stupid here.
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@Cyan:
And now we've reached the part of the discussion where everyone realizes that Darth genuinely thinks that Akainu is a good guy.
You are the only one that could think that.
Mostly because you are a delusional, insane person that has me on ignore and STILL acts as if he could read my posts. It's quite hillarious, honestly.
Trying to discuss morality with you people is like trying to throw peas at the wall in a attempt to bring it down.
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@Cyan:
And now we've reached the part of the discussion where everyone realizes that Darth genuinely thinks that Akainu is a good guy.
we still are at the bad writing part of the story
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I gotta agree with Darth in this one, unless there is more to that, this whole "letting these civilians die is for the greater good" doesn't really fit well with the first few things Fujitora said.
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Say Darth, really, how can you post this much? I can't understand. Do you not sleep, eat or live like the rest of us? I think Darth is a user name that is used by several people. I don't see how this is possible otherwise. You post within an average time frame of somewhat 10 minutes after someone has quoted you.@Darth:
Fools… I'm dealing with fools here.
The issue is not of letting bunch of innocent people die for the greater good here.
The issue is with inconsistent characterisation of Fujitora who was very clearly shown to be NOT like Akainu.
Not to mention, even if it really was his plan, contrary to all of his earlier characterisation, it is a stupid plan. And I mean Bleach/Naruto level of stupid here.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
You are the only one that could think that.
Mostly because you are a delusional, insane person that has me on ignore and STILL acts as if he could read my posts. It's quite hillarious, honestly.
Trying to discuss morality with you people is like trying to throw peas at the wall in a attempt to bring it down.
Also, CoA embedded pea could easily do that…
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Say Darth, really, how can you post this much? I can't understand. Do you not sleep, eat or live like the rest of us? I think Darth is a user name that is used by several people. I don't see how this is possible otherwise. You post within an average time frame of somewhat 10 minutes after someone has quoted you.
I'm watching internet videos, reading Kierkegard, refreshing the site, I'm currently between jobs and finished my term.
I ain't that hard. You just have to be very bored.
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I'm watching internet videos, reading Kierkegard, refreshing the site, I'm currently between jobs and finished my term.
I ain't that hard. You just have to be very bored.
That wasn't even 5 minutes… You scare me.
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Darth, how many posts do you have in this thread? Just to give us an idea of how bored you are. I'm betting +100.
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I hope Doflamingo can make puppet(s) only of himself. As much as i adore him, this would be too much.
Technically if Corazon is his TWIN brother then he would be making a string clone of himself with Corazon's attire.
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Darth, how many posts do you have in this thread? Just to give us an idea of how bored you are. I'm betting +100.
Quick search points 140. So this will be 141. Neat.
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So, seeing that most pages contain somewhat 20 comments give or take and there are 47 pages in this thread that would equal: 940 posts of which you have posted 141, which means 15%. Scary indeed.
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Quick search points 140. So this will be 141. Neat.
This is without counting when you try to double post and they put together together. Really impressive Darth.
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This is without counting when you try to double post and they put together together. Really impressive Darth.
Well, I do need to be thorough. I feel obligated by my avatar. :happy:
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as thorough as Akainu was when he said he wasn't going to let Luffy leave Marineford? Or as thorough as he was when he said that the marines have no need for crybabies like Coby? Pretty thorough indeed.
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as thorough as Akainu was when he said he wasn't going to let Luffy leave Marineford? Or as thorough as he was when he said that the marines have no need for crybabies like Coby?
Not even Magma Dog can win against the all powerful PLOT.