I'm down with Wind Waker for best Zelda soundtrack. The overworld theme truly catches the concept of adventurin', the battle with ganondorf is super epic, the videos with Medli and Makar's awakenings are nothing short of phenomenal and just … ugh, there's so much emotion in the songs.
It was also one of two games where I'd watch the intro movie every single time to get in the mood (for playing.)
I listen to this rather frequently actually.
I'm down with Wind Waker for best Zelda soundtrack. The overworld theme truly catches the concept of adventurin', the battle with ganondorf is super epic, the videos with Medli and Makar's awakenings are nothing short of phenomenal and just … ugh, there's so much emotion in the songs.
It was also one of two games where I'd watch the intro movie every single time to get in the mood (for playing.)I listen to this rather frequently actually.
I also think Wind waker has the overall best music, however the OoT songs are the ones I always recall, maybe it has to do with playing it so many times, but I feel none of the other zelda games used the concept of playing an instrument quite as well. Playing the ocarina songs over and over has made them really stick in my head, while I cant really remember most of the tunes you played in WW with the baton, or well, any from TP (to be fair, I only played that one once). The other song that always stuck with me was the Ballad of the Wind Fish from Link's Awakening.
@Lans:
I also think Wind waker has the overall best music, however the OoT songs are the ones I always recall, maybe it has to do with playing it so many times, but I feel none of the other zelda games used the concept of playing an instrument quite as well. Playing the ocarina songs over and over has made them really stick in my head, while I cant really remember most of the tunes you played in WW with the baton, or well, any from TP (to be fair, I only played that one once). The other song that always stuck with me was the Ballad of the Wind Fish from Link's Awakening.
That's definitely a big element, yeah. Reinforcing it and having a pretty fun thing to play music with helps ingrain it into the back of your head. WindWaker on the other hand had six songs, one was the sun's song, two are in the main theme, and of the last three, the wind related ones just had a small jingle attached to them for a few seconds. It's why Majora's Mask also does a similar thing with its tracks, but I'd argue that the composition of the ocarina songs other than song of healing are less… let's go with iconic, than OoT. Not that they're worse, but they definitely lack the usual association with zelda, even for a deviant game like MM
@Purple:
This is what I always felt was missing in old final fantasy games. Straight screaming into the microphone blaring from the speaker while I explored the continent with my Chocobo.
It only plays if you try to ride the wild red chocobo (which is faster but wastes your items and throws you off). The normal chocobo theme (in XIII) is:
Then there is this one:
Chocobos need the love too
So yeah, Nintendo just announced that Hyrule Warriors is going to have pre-order DLC in the form of costumes based on various installments in the series. The first Nintendo game with pre-order DLC, not good.
I mean yeah, there's pre-order DLC, but in the long run, they kinda have been doing that pre-order incentivization with things like Pokemon such as getting a torchic with Blazikenite. Still sucks, but they've been moving in that direction for awhile now.
I guess I'll have to agree to disagree about SS's soundtrack - I'll give you Faron Woods since I didn't really care for that track, but I disagree with a lot of what else you said. Oh well.
At least we agree on MM and WW.
Thanks to PirateNeko for the avatar!
Well, the songs that I always hum of zelda are:
Hyrule field theme brawl version
Ocarina Medley Brawl version
Balad of the Wind fish
Elegy of Emptiness, or stone tower temple
@Purple:
As memorable as the Final Fantasy XIII OST, really. Sure you can say you remember there was a faron woods theme or there was a theme for eldin province, but in terms of actually being able to recall precisely how those things went, unless you played the game recently, that's pretty unlikely. And even without the memorability factor, the tracks are just pretty poor in terms of their writing in general.
Not that I'm definding the SS soundtrack (I didn't even play the game), but I feel it's pretty unfair to equate a memorable soundtrack to a good one. Catchy tunes aren't always what you need. Like an example off the top of my head is Castlevania: Lords of Shadow. It had an amazing atmospheric orchestral score, but everyone bashed it for not having the upbeat melodies of classic Castlevania games. That wasn't the appropriate direction to take the music for that game. Sure, I can't readily recall and hum any of the music, but it was fantastic. Well, I can recall the Vampire Killer music box track but yeah.
I'm down with Wind Waker for best Zelda soundtrack. The overworld theme truly catches the concept of adventurin', the battle with ganondorf is super epic, the videos with Medli and Makar's awakenings are nothing short of phenomenal and just … ugh, there's so much emotion in the songs.
It was also one of two games where I'd watch the intro movie every single time to get in the mood (for playing.)
The music is excellent but I can't really justify putting it at the very top. Certainly a few of the central melodies are really emotional, and coupled with brilliant art direction make a huge impact, but… overall I just don't consider the soundtrack quite as solid. A fair amount of it already is built on top of previous songs anyway (Forest Haven, Windfall, etc).
Personally I have to put Majora's Mask at number 1 if we're talking 3D Zelda soundtracks. I still marvel at how so many wildly varying songs were built off the 5 playable ocarina notes -- and that's ON TOP of all the ones from OoT that use the same notes! So aside from the good songs, there's real musical genius there that gets me on an intellectual level. On an emotional level, the Song of Healing blows me away every time I hear it or it gets used in an event context in the game. And the Indigo-Gos theme song is the chillest thing in the history of chill game music. Also dat Stone Tower Temple.
Not that I'm definding the SS soundtrack (I didn't even play the game), but I feel it's pretty unfair to equate a memorable soundtrack to a good one. Catchy tunes aren't always what you need. Like an example off the top of my head is Castlevania: Lords of Shadow. It had an amazing atmospheric orchestral score, but everyone bashed it for not having the upbeat melodies of classic Castlevania games. That wasn't the appropriate direction to take the music for that game. Sure, I can't readily recall and hum any of the music, but it was fantastic. Well, I can recall the Vampire Killer music box track but yeah.
Yeah, memorability and how good it is are two separate things, but as I explained, SS's soundtrack fails in either category.
@Purple:
Yeah, memorability and how good it is are two separate things, but as I explained, SS's soundtrack fails in either category.
I mostly said that because you compared it to the FFXIII soundtrack which is actually pretty good.
The music is excellent but I can't really justify putting it at the very top. Certainly a few of the central melodies are really emotional, and coupled with brilliant art direction make a huge impact, but… overall I just don't consider the soundtrack quite as solid. A fair amount of it already is built on top of previous songs anyway (Forest Haven, Windfall, etc).
Personally I have to put Majora's Mask at number 1 if we're talking 3D Zelda soundtracks. I still marvel at how so many wildly varying songs were built off the 5 playable ocarina notes -- and that's ON TOP of all the ones from OoT that use the same notes! So aside from the good songs, there's real musical genius there that gets me on an intellectual level. On an emotional level, the Song of Healing blows me away every time I hear it or it gets used in an event context in the game. And the Indigo-Gos theme song is the chillest thing in the history of chill game music. Also dat Stone Tower Temple.
I get that it's a good game, but I'm sorry, Wind Waker just does it for me on so many levels. Like all those things you mention I can't even think of because Molgera's theme just keeps playing over and over in my head.
It could also be the whole thing about me not having that close experience of a third kind everyone here seems to have had with Majora's Mask.
Also I heard the soundtrack without context and fell asleep.
You're allowed to have songs that stuck in your head for various reasons and your enjoyment and commitment to what was actually going on in the games. I love both games and comparing the musical bodies of work side by side MM just wins for me.
Edit: Also the Deku Palace theme holy shit.
I appreciate WW's soundtrack for being really varied and dynamic (WW has the best sound direction, definitely), but MM's soundtrack is just so evocative. Its brilliant use of thematic variation and dissonance makes it worm its way into your soul and then haunt it. I don't care what anyone says, the Clock Town variations make up the best sound work of any Zelda game and a top contender among all games.
I guess I'll have to agree to disagree about SS's soundtrack - I'll give you Faron Woods since I didn't really care for that track, but I disagree with a lot of what else you said. Oh well.
At least we agree on MM and WW.
We could scroll through and break down every song and go through certain criteria as to the "goodness" of the track.
-How it's constructed
-How well the orchestration complements the piece
-The general instrumentation and whether or not there's a good balance to
-How well it complements the atmosphere of the setting
-And whatever else, personal reference if you want that.
Take for example this piece and see if it benefited in any way from orchestration:
And that last one was for the Isle of Songs! I mean I get that they're trying to go for mystical and strange and a bit folky, but it just comes off really poorly. And that was just for orchestration alone, but even for general construction and getting the sense of things (the first two being receiving power or courage or whatever), they're pieces that definitely don't fit quite right with the moment.
And here:
Like honestly playing through WindWaker again, I feel like in a lot of ways the soundtrack was hurt due to the expectation of orchestration but not putting it to good use. Each of those pieces also suffer from general structural problems, too that kinda make the whole thing feel really disjointed.
The inside of the great tree:
With this piece I feel like they were going for a Joe Hisaishi-inspired sorta deal like with the Kodamas in Princess Mononoke, but it really just doesn't work all that well. But whatever that's fine I guess.
Admittedly after scrolling through a few songs, a few pieces stand out to be well done such as the Stalfos theme:
In general, the battle themes are admittedly fairly well handled and while aren't as "hummable", they definitely set up the atmosphere correctly.
But the handful that are kinda neat don't outweigh how incredibly bland everything else is in some cases and how incredibly poorly written others are such as Faron or Eldin. If you remember the game purely for its boss themes and a few handful of themes outside of that the pieces in general are all really "bland", and I don't mean they weren't designed to be slow and meandering but their design is incredibly generic and poorly crafted.
In some ways it's kinda coincidental because I feel like it was great to reach the end credits, not because the game was over (full disclaimer: I actually thought SS was pretty fun during my playthrough in spite of what seems to be harsh criticism of it) but because by far the best use of the music was done here. It was really strange I thought that this final ending piece stands out waaayyyy better than the rest of the stuff beforehand for the most part and sounds like they brought in a different orchestra to handle it.
Like I ain't sayin that they're throwing completely incorrect mood pieces into the song but SS's soundtrack is at best mediocre and at its worst really a flimsy outlier when it comes to the soundtracks.
Of course on the flipside we could pick on Windwaker and see what worked for it.
Yes you've got your memorability factor, but I think it does the thing TP tried but better. OoT references? Cool! Let's throw in some motifs
Such as the Forest Haven's use of Kokiri Forest in a few ways:
But beyond a few references in the motifs and setting similar atmospheres, the themes are able to evolve and really become their own thing. So that's a point TP could have improved
The Earth Temple theme:
Less memorable? Sure, but the whole point is that sort of discomfort you're supposed to feel while going into the dark unknown, and it really complements the dungeon as a result. It builds as the piece goes on and keeps the rhythm to heighten the sense of danger.
Like that's a big plus for a lot of WW tracks that aids with the memorability factor is that the rhythm and the flow of the music never gets obstructed. If it needs to loop back, it'll build at a steady pace downward to assist with it
And everyone's favorite track really demonstrates that:
Starts off basic with the flamenco guitar strumming away and the percussion beat, and stuff just keeps adding on and enriching it. It's a really well crafted piece that, if you listen and compare with SS's pieces, SS actually tries a lot of that sort of build up and addition of instruments but the instruments don't really complement each other which changes it from being ambient to something people really don't care for (Faron being the worst offender)
The big, big, big thing is on top of that is that there's a big sense of a "unifying theme" between all these works. It definitely feels like it was written with the ocean in mind even if it's a fire place or a forest place or a forsaken fortress place. SS feels like it was tailored to setpieces and moments, and it's evident through the map being split three (or four if you include the sky), and the soundtrack as a whole never feels like the team of composers they had really had a general sense of direction as to the main thing they wanted to represent, so the great pieces end up being character or boss related.
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I appreciate WW's soundtrack for being really varied and dynamic (WW has the best sound direction, definitely), but MM's soundtrack is just so evocative. Its brilliant use of thematic variation and dissonance makes it worm its way into your soul and then haunt it. I don't care what anyone says, the Clock Town variations make up the best sound work of any Zelda game and a top contender among all games.
Yeah I would say in terms of actually being a soundtrack to complement the plot and adventuring sense (which is a major help for differentiating island to island), WW's direction is by far the superior one, but in terms of complementing the game and atmosphere in general, MM is definitely the better choice. It's actually really great how those small changes go, but their impact is super big in terms of the general feeling and sort of despair and helplessness the audio evokes.
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I mostly said that because you compared it to the FFXIII soundtrack which is actually pretty good.
Yeah the original thing I was quoting about was concerning "being able to remember those songs in SS" so I brought up FFXIII there, but in either case, in terms of track quality and sound direction and even that memorability factor, SS was incredibly lackluster.
I feel like I definitely got more offended than it than most people though so it might just be me lol
I would say if there's any flaw with the unifying feel of the WW soundtrack, it's that it sounds a little TOO whimsical sometimes, even at points where it maybe shouldn't. But it did have this vast world that the music helped unite. A game like MM doesn't quite work like that. Termina is a weird, twisted place and it really shouldn't feel familiar and unified in any sense.
But still I maintain that from a composition and intellectual standpoint, the MM soundtrack is incredible in a way that doesn't immediately shine through in any other Zelda games.
If anything, the other thing is that Termina's small enough that unification of the theme outside of the obvious motif would be counterproductive. Because of how much smaller Termina feels due to the hub world in the center and the four worlds in any direction, I think MM does well in actually making everything pretty distinctive while doing the counterintuitive thing and tying them together. You've got your poison swamp theme, your dangerous ocean theme, your "shit this land is frozen over theme" and "we're basically in a zombie apocalypse theme" and they all use the same motif but it really does highlight the differences between the different lands. Where WW pretty much got the freedom to have a unique, distinctive theme for every relevant island (however few there may be), MM did the opposite and tied things really crazy well with a more concise design.
To be honest, I completely forgot the harp songs in SS, so you have a point there…
...but then again, they're each in the game twice and that's it.
I admit I'm not too savvy on orchestration, but aside from the harp songs the ones you linked sounded fine to me. Heck, I even like the island in the sky and Isle of Songs that you linked to. The latter I felt fit in well with the moment, even though you didn't think so. And I don't know, you can't just tell me "it comes off poorly" or "it just doesn't work that well" and expect me to go "okay!". Again, I don't know much about orchestration, but most of those examples worked fine for the settings they were in to me, which you listed as an important quality.
When I was flying in the sky, the music really aided that feeling for me.
The music in Skyview Temple made the temple seem far more eerie and dangerous than it would've otherwise for me.
The Lanayru Desert songs were some of the few songs in the series that actually felt desert-like to me.
The Faron Lake theme helped the feeling of finding an underwater paradise for me.
The songs when the Imprisoned was sealed or when the sword gets upgraded are some of the most triumphant and awesome-feeling songs I've experienced in the series.
The Lanaryu Mining Facility has one of my favorite themes for a dungeon in the series.
As you said, the battle themes were great for atmosphere.
Even the theme for the Mogmas was unique and gave the characters a lot of personality.
Maybe people are just hearing things about the soundtrack that I'm not or vice versa? I don't know, but I don't see much point in discussing it anymore, to be honest.
Thanks to PirateNeko for the avatar!
@Purple:
If anything, the other thing is that Termina's small enough that unification of the theme outside of the obvious motif would be counterproductive. Because of how much smaller Termina feels due to the hub world in the center and the four worlds in any direction, I think MM does well in actually making everything pretty distinctive while doing the counterintuitive thing and tying them together. You've got your poison swamp theme, your dangerous ocean theme, your "shit this land is frozen over theme" and "we're basically in a zombie apocalypse theme" and they all use the same motif but it really does highlight the differences between the different lands. Where WW pretty much got the freedom to have a unique, distinctive theme for every relevant island (however few there may be), MM did the opposite and tied things really crazy well with a more concise design.
I'm not sure what you mean about it using the same motif and tying it all in. I mean, unless you mean the general ominous, desolate atmosphere that tends to come through in all the major overworld areas (other than Termina Field itself).
I admit I'm not too savvy on orchestration, but aside from the harp songs the ones you linked sounded fine to me. Heck, I even like the island in the sky and Isle of Songs that you linked to. The latter I felt fit in well with the moment, even though you didn't think so. And I don't know, you can't just tell me "it comes off poorly" or "it just doesn't work that well" and expect me to go "okay!". Again, I don't know much about orchestration
When I mean orchestration, I mean actually using live orchestration. "Does this sound like something synthesized or could you easily tell that it's something recorded?" In which case the majority of what I linked initially falls really flat.
Oh and the Skyview temple being more ominous than you'd get otherwise? I'd argue that actually the theme doesn't complement the temple at all in that case either. The temple's just the first legitimate one to explore but it's a lot more in-your-face about the danger than there actually is.
Now if we move onto the actual issue of design, that'd require a bit more technical finesse but from a technical standpoint though I basically ran through what I'd expect out of a great soundtrack with WW for this specific point along with general commentary from the board here about what makes MM great, and really not even holding SS up to those standards, it fails to meet those standards from a directional standpoint and really does harm the experience for someone who didn't have the general expectation of what to get from a game like this. I think while Fi's theme is an okay composition, for example, I think recently I just realized how incredibly hamfisted in terms of emotional intent it has. It was basically designed and written to try to elicit some emotional response when you part ways with her. Or make her a more bearable sidekick. Something like that. But the game never invests any of the time to really get to know Fi (continuous interruptions to the game notwithstanding), and for a fairly quiet theme, it sticks out like a sore thumb when you realize "I don't really actually care that much for Fi".
I think the direction of the soundtrack goes along with the expectation of things when it came out. It would be
A) an origin story that
B) would be more character focused and
C) be orchestrated while
D) establish that damn timeline everyone keeps talking about
So players walking in with a heavy amount of investment in Zelda overall are painted to see "well I'm supposed to be feeling something here! It's like with Midna, right?" or "this is the fire dungeon or fire area, so this music kinda suits it" or "this is a desert, so this is kinda desert-y… wait Gerudos were in a desert but their music was pretty cool, too". I don't mean to talk about you in particular but I feel like when designing the tracks, it kinda goes in with the assumption that you know what to expect for the game "This place just needs to be a peacefulish area with no threats", which is kinda weird for an origin story in which most games can be played without knowledge of the rest of the games (although it helps with some context here and there) and plays on those expectations. I mean yeah, you can get a sense of what their direction is with the pieces, but the music is just so incredibly uninspired, flat, and empty other than to direct the player to what they should have expected from the area anyway.
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I'm not sure what you mean about it using the same motif and tying it all in. I mean, unless you mean the general ominous, desolate atmosphere that tends to come through in all the major overworld areas (other than Termina Field itself).
I'm talking about this particular theme:
Southern Swamp:
You're greeted with a very familiar theme in each of these areas upon entry to them, but the instrumentation for each is different and highlights the different problems there are with that particular area. Later on, exploring further into the area you'll get the unique themes, but this is the basic outer area theme that says "yo man, stuff's messed up in here"
@Purple:
If anything, the other thing is that Termina's small enough that unification of the theme outside of the obvious motif would be counterproductive. Because of how much smaller Termina feels due to the hub world in the center and the four worlds in any direction, I think MM does well in actually making everything pretty distinctive while doing the counterintuitive thing and tying them together. You've got your poison swamp theme, your dangerous ocean theme, your "shit this land is frozen over theme" and "we're basically in a zombie apocalypse theme" and they all use the same motif but it really does highlight the differences between the different lands. Where WW pretty much got the freedom to have a unique, distinctive theme for every relevant island (however few there may be), MM did the opposite and tied things really crazy well with a more concise design.
Yes, exactly this. I was originally going to write a much longer post about MM's soundtrack including something to this effect. I love how it is the same despair-filled theme in every land. It lends itself to the sense of futility MM builds so well. Every time you fix the problems in an area, the theme washes away, but it's always there to greet you in each new area and at the beginning of every new cycle. It makes you feel just how overwhelmingly impossible it is for you to be everyone's hero. No matter how hard you try to fight back the darkness, it will keep coming back, until, through your trials, you finally become strong enough to tear its heart out.
That's what the MM soundtrack does for me.
This is the theme that haunts me in my dreams
My childhood mind couldn't fully process the despair-wrought world with the hopelessness around it as time looped back with the struggle against futility and the melancholy of the land, but it sure could understand "These aliens are freaky, man"
I honestly think my favorite Majora's Mask theme is the 3rd Day.
You gotta love the contrast. Happy upbeat notes with a frantic speed and the sense of something horrible is approaching. Represents Link's quest very well.
I'd name my favorite WW track, but I love too many of those. Great Sea and Wind Temple get stuck in my head.
@Purple:
I'm talking about this particular theme:
Southern Swamp:
Snowhead:
Great Bay:
Ikana:
Ahh that theme yeah. For some reason I was thinking you meant to the body of music as a whole.
@Purple:
My childhood mind couldn't fully process the despair-wrought world with the hopelessness around it as time looped back with the struggle against futility and the melancholy of the land, but it sure could understand "These aliens are freaky, man"
Man I don't know what's more messed up – Romani's lobotomy if you don't stop the ghosts, or Romani's oblivious cheerfulness being contrasted by Cremia's resignation to the fact that the world is ending and desperate attempt to make Romani's last day happy and memorable.
Okay. I've got the Biggest Arrow Quiver. I've got the Biggest Bomb Bag. I've got the Golden Scale. I've got Naryu's Love. I've got the Biggoron Sword. stands in front of the Sand Temple slips on sunglasses Let's do this.
Sorry, it's in a desert, I just think of it that way . . . . . . .
this is great too
It's funny, because the tower part was probably my least favorite dungeon part in Majora's Mask, got stuck on it as a kid, the friggin' statues, especially this monstrosity
!
almost everything about Ikana was unsettling though
It's funny, because the tower part was probably my least favorite dungeon part in Majora's Mask, got stuck on it as a kid, the friggin' statues, especially this monstrosity
Which is funny because the Stone Tower Temple is possibly the best dungeon ever designed in a Zelda game, despite the pace-breaking of the Elegy of Emptiness.
I didn't even get stuck when going up the tower, for some reason it was the first room of the actual dungeon that blocked me
two years ago when I finished the game it was absolutely doable and fun, especially the gomess part with picking off the bats was neat, would have loved that as a kid
Twinmold was okay too, although when it comes to MM, nothing compares to the adrenaline rush you get when racing goht, best zelda boss ever.
Just kinda sad that they didn't find any other use of the giants mask, but I get it, that would've been too hard
Between this and tumblr using "Dawn of the First Day, 72 hours remain until Otakon", I've dusted off my mini-tv, pulled out my N64 and am finally playing Majora's Mask for the very first time!
I do NOT know if my heart can take this time running out thing over and over though <- reason why I've put off playing it.
The reverse Song of Time makes it quite easy to take, actually.
What adds to the feeling is that every time you go back in time, you undo you what did. Meaning people's lives are gonna be…well, bad, again. :X
For this reason I really want to do the Romani side-quest (as it's really depressing to see what happens to the ranch) once I'm able to play MM on my Wii U, but I gotta find the darn Powder Keg first. I know you need Goron Link to get it.
The Spirit Temple actually ended up being a lot easier and quicker than I thought it would be. Not nearly as annoying as the Shadow Temple. Of course now we move on to . . . . . Ganondorf.
I didn't know there was a Zelda thread here. Crazy because I just beat A link between worlds this morning too lol
Majora's Mask fist bumps DKC2 and Empire Strikes Back on the way into the "Darker Deeper Sequels With Style and Excellent Soundtracks" club
^Can Banjo-Tooie join that club?
Majora's Mask is easily my favorite of the Zelda series, but my favorite song goes to Ocarina of Time.
That opening just brings back so many memories for me. I'd load the cartridge and get swept away by the music. I love how depressing, yet somewhat uplifting it is.
Manga Blast is a small community of manga fans. We have a long running One Piece and Fairy Tail RP. New members are always welcome!
^Can Banjo-Tooie join that club?
It wasn't darker, deeper, stylish, nor did it have a better soundtrack so nyope.
And no I don't count "More annoyingly late 90's adolescent aimed" as darker.
@Monkey:
It wasn't darker, deeper, stylish, nor did it have a better soundtrack so nyope.
And do I don't count "More annoyingly late 90's adolescent aimed" as darker.
Fair enough.
hums Witchyworld theme to self
Banjo-Tooie is one of those games I go back and forth on. It added a lot of content, ideas, and difficulty to the first game, but I have a hard time actually considering it better in any way. It also doesn't have the benefit that Majora's Mask has of greatly distancing itself from its prequel. It's just the same thing, but a lot more of it.
Banjo-Tooie is one of those games I go back and forth on. It added a lot of content, ideas, and difficulty to the first game, but I have a hard time actually considering it better in any way. It also doesn't have the benefit that Majora's Mask has of greatly distancing itself from its prequel. It's just the same thing, but a lot more of it.
The real problem to me is that it's actually more like a third installment, Donkey Kong 64 had already come out.
A lot of it felt sort of stale and already done to me.
Mayan world? Already had Mumbo's Mountain and Angry Aztec.
Mine world? Already had one kinda (though I think this is the best level in Banjo Tooie)
Watery world with Pirate vibes? Done that twice too.
Factory? Had a factory.
Had ice too.
Found much of the level design a little let down too.
That's true, it's got a lot of similarities with DK64. I hadn't really thought of it like that.
Hmm. I'm not sure if I played them out of order or what, but the sameiness of BT never really got to me, most of all because it was by far the most polished, albeit a little bloated.
DK64 had great music and ridiculous scope, but so much of it felt really flat. Even though the worlds were huge, so many of each world's 25 bananas were easily obtained or involved some gimmick that barely had anything to do with the level. Also had a big problem with how sloppy movement and collisions felt. Like so much time was spent making the worlds that figuring out how the kongs would interact with them was almost an afterthought. It's a little understandable when most of every level had to be accessible to five different characters, but still…
BK and BT, by contrast, were tight as hell, with a big focus on movement and how the player would go about actually getting places, and BT's levels were anything but flat. Nooks and crannies and secrets and that cool interconnectivity throughout, so even though we'd seen "Central American native themed place" and factories in DKC1/C3/64, BT still brought something new to the table with each one (Mayahem Temple had kickball, cheat temple, and that weird FPS segment; as much as I love Frantic Factory, Grunty Industries was just the perfect factory in its complexity and scope, with a train station, service elevator, five distinct floors, best boss in the game, liberal use of Mumbo and Wumba, its own rage-inducing FPS section, the whole exterior and roof...). I also appreciated the transition from "macguffins scattered literally everywhere" to "only 10; most are quite involved; some you can't even get on your first trip through the level." All the delightful NPCs added some character too.
BK...is more than a timeless prototype. It has its own flavor that neither of the other two had that keeps you coming back even when BT is so much...bigger, in every way.
In short, Rare did some amazing work with Nintendo.
On topic, a factory dungeon in Zelda could be cool.
@CCC:
On topic, a factory dungeon in Zelda could be cool.
Lanayru Mining Facility and Great Bay Temple don't do the trick?
Tbh I don't remember much about Skyward Sword. Timewarp stones were cool, but I'm drawing a complete blank on the mine.
But yeah. Great Bay Temple was a lot cooler than many give it credit for.
I guess I'm thinking of more of a prototypical factory. TP and SS were pretty bad, but I think the more out-of-the-typical-Zelda-box dungeons in them were some of the better ones (Yeti Mansion and Sand Ship, to name the most memorable).
