I'm wondering now : I've read aaaall this thread, and i'm wondering wether ot not a manga will still be good without all this cliche. Or could we still call it a manga without any of this cliche ?
To me the answer is clearly yes. But what about you all ?
@Friend:
I despise ecchi. If I wanted porn I have the internet. It makes shounen really look terrible. I don't understand how grown adults can find that shit amusing or even wank to it in Japan.
I agree with this one. Then again, it's Japan. If you can have vending machines selling school girl panties, I guess ecchi isn't anything out of the ordinary.
I also hate the fact that CGI seems to have taken over at least a big chunk of mechanical animation.
I don't mind CGI in mecha anime if it's done sparingly. Gundam Unicorn, for example, uses CGI tastefully so it flows. But I do agree with you that production companies seem to be using it left, right and centre when it in fact takes away from the shots.
I wonder if they do it because it's more cost effective, or just because it's a fad?
Anyway, I'm sick of seeing people being able to fight even when badly injured. Even minor injuries are painfull as fuck in reality. Or reading things like " He protected his vital point "… That and people talking while figthing.
Well, shounen in particular, and seinen depending on the title, would have poor pacing if everyone tried to heal themselves after getting hurt. I guess it's one of those instances where mangaka can fudge reality in favour of creativity licensing.
WB, for example, fought against the marines even when half of his face was burned off. When that happened, the consensus was pretty much "Holy Shit WB IS SUCH A BAD ASS!" If he just keeled over and died then, it would've been pretty dumb and anti-climactic. It's one of those "warrior spirit" cliches basically. And cliches suck (lazy writing), so I wish they stopped using them.
Akainu didn't planned anything: http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17706/one-piece_ch573_by_franky-house/11
About the Gol D. Ace thing I trust Garp more than Dadan in the matter it's about circonstances: http://www.batoto.net/read/_/13912/one-piece_ch588_by_mangarule/15
Akainu was the most conniving bastard in the Marines during the war. Remember when he pit Squardo against WB? Even though Sengoku was the main strategist, Akainu had more definitive plans and plays which eventually led to his promotion of Fleet Admiral. So just because the panel doesn't expliticly have him with a thought bubble doesn't mean it's not in his character (which Oda already established) to do something so manipulative and underhanded. Akainu would kill his own mother if it satisfied the Marines motto of "Justice". So taunting the son of the world's most hated man, and using both WB and Luffy as bait to kill him isn't something he wouldn't do.
As for the second link, you just provided evidence for what I was saying, so… yeah... Ace was Rogers son, grew up under similar conditions, tried very hard to differ from his father, inevitably became a similar man (power, characteristics, personality at times), and then died because of the traits he inherited.
In topic: Ihate family reference in manga or anime.
And anyway I hate the "it's in the family" theme more than anything in manga.
I think that's a cultural artifact found in most cultures around the world.
North America: "That's my boy!"
Japan: "As expected of my Son."
Lion King: "Remember who you are. You are my son, and the one true king."
It's stupid, but it's everywhere.
I'm wondering now : I've read aaaall this thread, and i'm wondering wether ot not a manga will still be good without all this cliche. Or could we still call it a manga without any of this cliche ?
To me the answer is clearly yes. But what about you all ?
Of course. Cliches are just story elements that are used more than others. Of course you can have a story without them.
I agree with this one. Then again, it's Japan. If you can have vending machines selling school girl panties, I guess ecchi isn't anything out of the ordinary.
Those things were never very popular and outlawed years ago.
Akainu was the most conniving bastard in the Marines during the war. Remember when he pit Squardo against WB? Even though Sengoku was the main strategist, Akainu had more definitive plans and plays which eventually led to his promotion of Fleet Admiral. So just because the panel doesn't expliticly have him with a thought bubble doesn't mean it's not in his character (which Oda already established) to do something so manipulative and underhanded. Akainu would kill his own mother if it satisfied the Marines motto of "Justice". So taunting the son of the world's most hated man, and using both WB and Luffy as bait to kill him isn't something he wouldn't do.
No one's doubting that. But look at the first page again. There's a question mark over his head. He was genuinely surprised that Ace responded to him at all.
Cliches are not inherently bad. Hell, most of them became cliches because they worked well. In my opinion, there really aren't any tropes or cliches that are ALWAYS bad. Its all up to execution. That said, some are bad more often than others, and some are easier to do well.
Harem anime where the main character appears to be asexual for no reason
We haven't seen very many Ds, but that's not true. Luffy even wanted Ace to run away. And how can you say that's not a flaw? When an ant faces down an elephant, 99/100 it's better to run.
Its not a flaw because if they survive they will become stronger.
@No:
ThatGuyWiththeGlasses' story about blowing up a baby.
Its not a flaw because if they survive they will become stronger.
A trait that is likely to get you killed is almost certainly a flaw. Perhaps the flaw has other advantages, but it is still a flaw.
@Hiroy:
List some stories without cliches.
Name ONE if you can.
Theoretically possible does not mean that I've found one that fits that criteria. If you paid me and gave me a list of cliches to avoid I could probably write such a story eventually, but it sounds rather bothersome.
I found it awfull and really bad even when I was a teenager you know…
But, I can't remember a good manga being terrible only because of Ecchi or hentai-like scenes.
There's not really thing like that in steel ball run, One Piece, FMA, death note and other gems like that... So I guess it's ok.Anyway, I'm sick of seeing people being able to fight even when badly injured. Even minor injuries are painfull as fuck in reality. Or reading things like " He protected his vital point "… That and people talking while figthing.
then you won't like Grappler Baki, One Piece, Kongoh Banchou, Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Toriko, Akame ga Kiru, History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Soul Eater, Medaka Box, GTO, Konjiki no Gash Bell, Fist of the North Star, and nearly every other shonen battle manga in existence.
The only time superhuman durability bothers me is when a move/attack was stated to be absolutely fatal, as in "this is a spell that kills you it is the death spell" and someone survives it. That's bullshit because the rules are being broken.
cause other than that, I love the kind of guys who don't die, even if you kill them.
Theoretically possible does not mean that I've found one that fits that criteria. If you paid me and gave me a list of cliches to avoid I could probably write such a story eventually, but it sounds rather bothersome.
The thing is you argued it would be possible to make a story with no cliches, not just avoiding a set list of them.
[[My series COMIXSCAPE!](http://www.comixscape.net)] [[Check COMIXSCAPE on PBS!](https://youtu.be/4c5q2dosG2g)]
The only time superhuman durability bothers me is when a move/attack was stated to be absolutely fatal, as in "this is a spell that kills you it is the death spell" and someone survives it. That's bullshit because the rules are being broken.
All true. Except with kid Goku and the devil beam. That was just the best
A power-up becoming a basic move.
@wolfwoof:
All true. Except with kid Goku and the devil beam. That was just the best
well, in that case it didn't work because Goku was pure of heart, and what the attack actually does is amplify the evil in your heart to destroy you.
edit: @desa:
A power-up becoming a basic move.
what do you mean? like how Gear Second is now just something Luffy throws in to augment a single attack, instead of "transforming"? or like how in DBZ going SSJ1 old hat after a while? Or how Ichigo just started going all-bankai-all-the-time?
The thing is you argued it would be possible to make a story with no cliches, not just avoiding a set list of them.
It is subjective whether or not one considers a certain trope to be a cliche. After all, do we count it as a cliche if it is in 100, 10,000 or 1,000,000 stories? Therefore, I would need to know which tropes you thought qualified to be cliched before I could make the story.
Bishounen or Preteen protagonists.
what do you mean? like how Gear Second is now just something Luffy throws in to augment a single attack, instead of "transforming"? or like how in DBZ going SSJ1 old hat after a while? Or how Ichigo just started going all-bankai-all-the-time?
Pretty much Sanji using Diable Jambe on some fodder.
That reminds I hate the usual "it's a long hard and training" that becomes a totally normal training for every main character out there.
basicly everything is a cliche, going left is already done, but right also. Only the way of showing it to us can make it good or bad
The most cliche I hate that Fairy Tail seems to love doing is the enemy giving a fatal wound… where it isn't fatal -_- like they stab you from the back, but no, let's, instead of stabbing the heart, just stab the kidney or liver or whatever is on that side of the stomach that they love to stab...
basicly everything is a cliche, going left is already done, but right also. Only the way of showing it to us can make it good or bad
Not really. 99.999% of the ideas that burst into human consciousness have been done at least a few times, in some manner or another. But a great deal less have been done often enough to be called cliched. If you use the term so loosely, it loses all meaning.
Bishounen or Preteen protagonists.
In general, manga magazines tend to reflect the target readership age group in their protagonists.
Shounen manga usually has teenage protagonists, whereas Young-lineup seinen manga tend to be high-teen to early 20s.
Then you get to the upper seinen magazines such as Business-lineup, Big Comic, Evening/Morning, etc and you get the protags in late 20s-early 30s.
There are exceptions of course, but this is generally the pattern.
So if you're sick and tired of young protagonists, you should veer away from mostly reading shounen manga, and venture off to seinen manga.
I enjoy manga from all demographics, but I find my favorites in seinen manga more than any other, naturally.
Another thing I'm sick of seeing in manga/anime is when ppl get that little cut of their cheek in a fight. Its so overdone its getting ridiculous now. Sometimes they just put it in a fight for no reason. Ppl who are even fighting with anything sharp get that little cut on their cheek its ridiculous. I also hate when ppl lick their own blood (usually after having their cheek cut) or other ppls blood like their a badass or something. Its so cliche and overdone now its just annoying. Its lost all meaning its not even cool anymore they should just stop it.
@Endless:
A trait that is likely to get you killed is almost certainly a flaw. Perhaps the flaw has other advantages, but it is still a flaw.
Theoretically possible does not mean that I've found one that fits that criteria. If you paid me and gave me a list of cliches to avoid I could probably write such a story eventually, but it sounds rather bothersome.
I don't see how not running away like a bitch and standing up for what u believe in is a "flaw".
Bad to mediocre CGI.
I also hate the fact that CGI seems to have taken over at least a big chunk of mechanical animation.
Yeah I hate when they put CGI in animated shows, especially when they make the ppl in the show CGI. Its just lazy. Its ok if they do it for objects and backgrounds and whatnot but for ppl it just sucks.
@Hiroy:
List some stories without cliches.
Name ONE if you can.
There are lots of stories without cliches. I think the term u are thinking of are "tropes". Those aren't cliches they are things that writers rely on to write their story and unlike cliches they aren't inherently bad. So they are in every story, not cliches.
@Maron:
The thing is you argued it would be possible to make a story with no cliches, not just avoiding a set list of them.
It is possible to create a story without cliches but not tropes.
@desa:
A power-up becoming a basic move.
I dont see how this is a bad thing. If the powerscaling demands it and the power-up has believably gotten to the point it can be spammed why not let it fly? Like how Luffy can just use G2 at anytime or Goku can go super saiyan and use kamehameha at any time, if its necessary to keep the powerscale correct it should be ok.
@desa:
Pretty much Sanji using Diable Jambe on some fodder.
That reminds I hate the usual "it's a long hard and training" that becomes a totally normal training for every main character out there.
Ok but the thing about Sanji is that he trained with it long enough to become his basic move and he has develop a new and better power in place of it. Not really anything wrong with that.
@bepo:
basicly everything is a cliche, going left is already done, but right also. Only the way of showing it to us can make it good or bad
Tropes, everything is a trope. Cliches are basically just dull and uninteresting tropes so they are inherently bad. Tropes however can be good or bad depending on how they are justified or subverted.
I don't see how not running away like a bitch and standing up for what u believe in is a "flaw".
If rstanding up for what you believe gets you killed, standing up for what you believe is a big flaw. Risking your life is a big deal, and should not be done lightly. For such risk to be justified, there must be much to be gained from your success. Seeing as Ace had next to no chance of victory, fighting Akainu in that situation was a mistake, and the trait that caused him to make that decision is therefore a flaw.
If rstanding up for what you believe gets you killed, standing up for what you believe is a big flaw. Risking your life is a big deal, and should not be done lightly. For such risk to be justified, there must be much to be gained from your success. Seeing as Ace had next to no chance of victory, fighting Akainu in that situation was a mistake, and the trait that caused him to make that decision is therefore a flaw.
Just because it can get u killed doesn't make it a flaw. There is only flaw when the person thinks they can stand up to anyone without any risk. Even if Ace didn't stand a chance to win its still great that he stood up for what he believed in.
Just because it can get u killed doesn't make it a flaw. There is only flaw when the person thinks they can stand up to anyone without any risk. Even if Ace didn't stand a chance to win its still great that he stood up for what he believed in.
It isn't a flaw because it can get you killed. It's a flaw because it almost certainly will and did get him killed. A person who stands up for their beliefs all the time is totally fine, assuming they have the power to back it up all the time. Ace was out of his league, and beating Akainu wasn't an objective he needed to check off in the first place.
I really don't get you. How can it be "great" that Ace stood up for what he believed and died as a result? Whitebeard and his crew didn't care about the petty insults being thrown his way. Luffy didn't care about them either. Ace died in a failed attempt to prove a point that no one wanted to be proved in the first place. The end result was a resounding loss for Ace's side.
Just like they showed in Mock Town, Luffy and Zoro knew simple words thrown about isn't worth their fists.
Ace couldn't afford their maturity, and paid for it with his life.
Sticks and stones, sticks and stones.
It isn't a flaw because it can get you killed. It's a flaw because it almost certainly will and did get him killed. A person who stands up for their beliefs all the time is totally fine, assuming they have the power to back it up all the time. Ace was out of his league, and beating Akainu wasn't an objective he needed to check off in the first place.
I really don't get you. How can it be "great" that Ace stood up for what he believed and died as a result? Whitebeard and his crew didn't care about the petty insults being thrown his way. Luffy didn't care about them either. Ace died in a failed attempt to prove a point that no one wanted to be proved in the first place. The end result was a resounding loss for Ace's side.
Luffy got him killed. If u wanna say something got him killed it would be that he wanted to protect Luffy at all costs but that too is not a flaw. Ace didn't die because of Akainu talking about Whitebeard he died because of Luffy. It had literally nothing to do with his death so why do u keep bringing it up?@Aohige_AP:
Just like they showed in Mock Town, Luffy and Zoro knew simple words thrown about isn't worth their fists.
Ace couldn't afford their maturity, and paid for it with his life.Sticks and stones, sticks and stones.
Seriously ppl y do u keep saying Ace reacting to Akainu's insults killed him? U need to go back and read Marineford because u obviously didnt comprehend what happened.
but isn't that Ace got that fatal hit because he was protecting Luffy who cannot move at that time?
Seriously ppl y do u keep saying Ace reacting to Akainu's insults killed him? U need to go back and read Marineford because u obviously didnt comprehend what happened.
Because that's what got him killed. It's not what killed him, it's what got him killed.
Do you need English lessons on the difference?
He foolishly decided to cease the fleeing moment and confront Akainu.
Which eventually led to the inevitable. You're the one that has comprehension problems, not me.
Keep in mind, I'm not criticizing his actions from a literacy POV, just simply stating the fact it was a result of his immaturity.
As for literacy POV, I agree with what x20a stated two pages ago.
I'm pretty sure I don't "need to go back and read One Piece", dude.
I fucking eat and breathes one piece. Almost literally. :ninja:
Because that's what got him killed. It's not what killed him, it's what got him killed.
Do you need English lessons on the difference?He foolishly decided to cease the fleeing moment and confront Akainu.
Which eventually led to the inevitable. You're the one that has comprehension problems, not me.
Keep in mind, I'm not criticizing his actions from a literacy POV, just simply stating the fact it was a result of his immaturity.
As for literacy POV, I agree with what x20a stated two pages ago.I'm pretty sure I don't "need to go back and read One Piece", dude.
I fucking eat and breathes one piece. Almost literally. :ninja:
U obviously don't remember what happened so let me refresh ur memory. While Ace and Luffy were running away from Akainu, Akainu insulted WB and Ace clashed with him and got his hand burned. Instead of killing Ace right then he saw that Luffy had fell over from exhaustion up ahead and went to attack him. Ace saw that and jumped in front to save Luffy. Thats what got him killed. Even if they had kept running Luffy would have still fell over from exhaustion and then get attacked Akainu. Even if Ace carried him and ran at top speed he still would not have outrun Akainu. There was no way they would have survived. Ace's "immaturity" did NOT get him killed LUFFY did. I don't know why u can't accept that. Who cares if he tried to confront Akainu, Luffy has done things that were far more ridiculous (like declaring war on the entire world government, punching a world noble which almost got him and his entire crew killed) and I don't see u complaining about him.
No, I'm pretty sure they would have gotten away, or at least tried to, if he did not stop.
It's the fact that despite others telling him not to stop, he CHOSE to prioritize his "hurt feelings" over what his loved ones were working for.
He failed to realize his life is not only his own, not anymore at that crucial point of the war.
And you comparing Luffy's antics to Ace's is simply hilarious.
This entire war was because WB pirates came to save Ace. Ace's brash actions cost the entire meaning of the whole effort.
If they were there to save Luffy, and Luffy caused an action (especially after going through pages and pages of BAWWW SELF HATE BAWWW shit) to bring their effort to nothing, he would be criticized as well.
And stop saying "u" or I'll crush your skull.
If Ace hadn't been able to escape at all, then why did everyone, including Ace, make the attempt?
Not to mention it would rob Ace's character of the shortcomings that make his and Roger's characters compelling.
If Ace hadn't been able to escape at all, then why did everyone, including Ace, make the attempt?
Not to mention it would rob Ace's character of the shortcomings that make his and Roger's characters compelling.
Yeah, exactly. They are shortcomings, and for a (literacy) purpose.
The dude crusading above simply refuse to see it as shortcomings, and thus, completely ignoring the storytelling purpose of it in the first place.
Although from seeing his posts in the forum, I seriously doubt he understands what that means…
No, I'm pretty sure they would have gotten away, or at least tried to, if he did not stop.
It's the fact that despite others telling him not to stop, he CHOSE to prioritize his "hurt feelings" over what his loved ones were working for.
He failed to realize his life is not only his own, not anymore at that crucial point of the war.And you comparing Luffy's antics to Ace's is simply hilarious.
This entire war was because WB pirates came to save Ace. Ace's brash actions cost the entire meaning of the whole effort.
If they were there to save Luffy, and Luffy caused an action (especially after going through pages and pages of BAWWW SELF HATE BAWWW shit) to bring their effort to nothing, he would be criticized as well.And stop saying "u" or I'll crush your skull.
Dude no just stop. Oda wanted him dead so thats why he died. Not because he tried to attack Akainu. Honestly who gives a fuck about that, its irrelevant. And why are "u" 
talking about Ace being the cause of the war anyway? That has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
@Gliblord:
If Ace hadn't been able to escape at all, then why did everyone, including Ace, make the attempt?
Not to mention it would rob Ace's character of the shortcomings that make his and Roger's characters compelling.
Wait what are u talking about? No there wasn't anyway for Ace to escape because Oda wanted him dead. He could have had Akainu kill him right after their clash but having him die protecting Luffy was a much more dramatic way to flesh out his and Luffy's character.
@Aohige_AP:
Yeah, exactly. They are shortcomings, and for a (literacy) purpose.
The dude crusading above simply refuse to see it as shortcomings, and thus, completely ignoring the storytelling purpose of it in the first place.
Although from seeing his posts in the forum, I seriously doubt he understands what that means…
What "shortcomings" are u even talking about? I've already established the fact the Ace boldness is not a flaw/shortcoming so whats the problem?
Dude no just stop. Oda wanted him dead so thats why he died. Not because he tried to attack Akainu. Honestly who gives a fuck about that, its irrelevant. And why are "u"
Wait what are u talking about? No there wasn't anyway for Ace to escape because Oda wanted him dead. He could have had Akainu kill him right after their clash but having him die protecting Luffy was a much more dramatic way to flesh out his and Luffy's character.
Except we're talking about the situation as Oda wrote it in the manga from an in-universe perspective.
In universe, it was portrayed such that had Ace made a smarter decision, he would have lived. We're not talking about what Oda wanted to do in a large sense, but what he DID do in a more detail oriented sense. I can understand the people who didn't like the angle that Oda was going for, but to argue that the angle was irrelevant is far worse. There is a difference in the effect and meaning of Ace's death from a characterization, tone, and literary perspective in general between the way he died (falling for a taunt when he could have escaped due to emotional turmoil, impulsiveness, and stupidity) and fighting Akainu because he absolutely needed to to keep moving, or even fighting Akainu when he could personally escape, but Luffy couldn't.
I feel one of the biggest points is that it showed that Luffy, despite how strong he had gotten and how close he was, was nowhere near strong enough to face everything head on, and that he couldn't avoid facing things head on if he wanted to pursue his dream. Luffy nearly saved Ace, but it was largely due to the help of Whitebeard, Ivankov, and Crocodile, and to avoiding or escaping any fights with the most powerful people. But when the situation arose where factors spun out of his control, and where he was the only one who could make a difference and he had to face things directly, he was powerless.
If Luffy was alone, he could have escaped. But if Luffy wanted to protect what was important to him, he was to weak to do so. It shows that for as far as Luffy has gotten, he wasn't far enough to achieve everything without sacrifices. Having Ace die specifically to save Luffy would have similar effects, but it wouldn't convey the idea that Luffy wasn't useless, but wasn't strong enough to go without sacrifices (Which is important, because it justifies the idea that Luffy could have gone to the new world and he could've survived, but not without huge cost and only if he started on a smaller scale, just like the other supernova. Luffy wanted the training in the timeskip not just so he could achieve his dream, but so he could achieve it without losing anything else).
It also changes the idea from: Luffy got Ace killed, to just Luffy wasn't able to save Ace. Luffy getting Ace killed would've had a dramatically more profound effect on Luffy's psyche, since it would mean that had Luffy not been there, he might not have died. But that might have scared Luffy too much and affected him too profoundly, considering how much just not being able to save Ace affected Luffy. And that's ignoring all the stuff it shows about Ace's character and state of mind at the time
Except we're talking about the situation as Oda wrote it in the manga from an in-universe perspective. In universe, it was portrayed such that had Ace made a smarter decision, he would have lived. We're not talking about what Oda wanted to do in a large sense, but what he DID do in a more detail oriented sense. I can understand the people who didn't like the angle that Oda was going for, but to argue that the angle was irrelevant is far worse. There is a huge difference in the effect and meaning of Ace's death from a characterization, tone, and literary perspective in general between the way he died (falling for a taunt when he could have escaped due to emotional turmoil, impulsiveness, and stupidity) and fighting Akainu because he absolutely needed to to keep moving, or even fighting Akainu when he could personally escape, but Luffy couldn't. I feel one of the biggest points is that it showed that Luffy, despite how strong he had gotten and how close he was, was nowhere near strong enough to face everything head on, and that he couldn't avoid facing things head on if he wanted to pursue his dream. Luffy nearly saved Ace, but it was largely due to the help of Whitebeard, Ivankov, and Crocodile, and to avoiding or escaping any fights with the most powerful people. But when the situation arose where factors spun out of his control, and where he was the only one who could make a difference and he had to face things directly, he was powerless. If Luffy was alone, he could have escaped. But if Luffy wanted to protect what was important to him, he was to weak to do so. It shows that for as far as Luffy has gotten, he wasn't far enough to achieve everything without sacrifices. Having Ace die specifically to save Luffy would have similar effects, but it wouldn't convey the idea that Luffy wasn't useless, but wasn't strong enough to go without sacrifices (Which is important, because it justifies the idea that Luffy could have gone to the new world and he could've survived, but not without huge cost and only if he started on a smaller scale, just like the other supernova. Luffy wanted the training in the timeskip not just so he could achieve his dream, but so he could achieve it without losing anything else). It also changes the idea from: Luffy got Ace killed, to just Luffy wasn't able to save Ace. Luffy getting Ace killed would've had a dramatically more profound effect on Luffy's psyche, since it would mean that had Luffy not been there, he might not have died. But that might have scared Luffy too much and affected him too profoundly, considering how much just not being able to save Ace affected Luffy. And that's ignoring all the stuff it shows about Ace's character and state of mind at the time
Dude no ur stupid wth are u talkin abut!?!? back the hell off!?!?!
Dude no just stop. Oda wanted him dead so thats why he died. Not because he tried to attack Akainu. Honestly who gives a fuck about that, its irrelevant. And why are "u"
Wait what are u talking about? No there wasn't anyway for Ace to escape because Oda wanted him dead. He could have had Akainu kill him right after their clash but having him die protecting Luffy was a much more dramatic way to flesh out his and Luffy's character.
What "shortcomings" are u even talking about? I've already established the fact the Ace boldness is not a flaw/shortcoming so whats the problem?
Are. You. Able. To. Distinguish. Between. Literacy perspective and in-story perspective?
Clearly the answer is no, as I stated you wouldn't in my last post.
All you accomplished with this nonsense is proving what I had guessed.
Dude. You stop. Jesus Christ.
You didn't establish anything but your own inability to see the larger picture, the significance and the meaning of a plot device, and general incomprehension of a story structure.
Dude no ur stupid wth are u talkin abut!?!? back the hell off!?!?!
You do realize there's no way in hell that dude (clearly not Aaron) will understand your sarcasm, right.
Wait what are u talking about? No there wasn't anyway for Ace to escape because Oda wanted him dead.
So it's impossible to die unless it's the absolute 100% only possibility
I don't actually think that Ace was a bad character, in fact, I kind of liked him.
There, I said it.
Something tells me the guy is trolling and is just enjoying how much he's winding you guys up. On a different note I enjoyed that discussio its always interesting seeing people analyse One piece like that.
Except we're talking about the situation as Oda wrote it in the manga from an in-universe perspective.
In universe, it was portrayed such that had Ace made a smarter decision, he would have lived. We're not talking about what Oda wanted to do in a large sense, but what he DID do in a more detail oriented sense. I can understand the people who didn't like the angle that Oda was going for, but to argue that the angle was irrelevant is far worse. There is a difference in the effect and meaning of Ace's death from a characterization, tone, and literary perspective in general between the way he died (falling for a taunt when he could have escaped due to emotional turmoil, impulsiveness, and stupidity) and fighting Akainu because he absolutely needed to to keep moving, or even fighting Akainu when he could personally escape, but Luffy couldn't.
I feel one of the biggest points is that it showed that Luffy, despite how strong he had gotten and how close he was, was nowhere near strong enough to face everything head on, and that he couldn't avoid facing things head on if he wanted to pursue his dream. Luffy nearly saved Ace, but it was largely due to the help of Whitebeard, Ivankov, and Crocodile, and to avoiding or escaping any fights with the most powerful people. But when the situation arose where factors spun out of his control, and where he was the only one who could make a difference and he had to face things directly, he was powerless.
If Luffy was alone, he could have escaped. But if Luffy wanted to protect what was important to him, he was to weak to do so. It shows that for as far as Luffy has gotten, he wasn't far enough to achieve everything without sacrifices. Having Ace die specifically to save Luffy would have similar effects, but it wouldn't convey the idea that Luffy wasn't useless, but wasn't strong enough to go without sacrifices (Which is important, because it justifies the idea that Luffy could have gone to the new world and he could've survived, but not without huge cost and only if he started on a smaller scale, just like the other supernova. Luffy wanted the training in the timeskip not just so he could achieve his dream, but so he could achieve it without losing anything else).
It also changes the idea from: Luffy got Ace killed, to just Luffy wasn't able to save Ace. Luffy getting Ace killed would've had a dramatically more profound effect on Luffy's psyche, since it would mean that had Luffy not been there, he might not have died. But that might have scared Luffy too much and affected him too profoundly, considering how much just not being able to save Ace affected Luffy. And that's ignoring all the stuff it shows about Ace's character and state of mind at the time
Nice of you to section it into paragraphs, makes it easier to read
Except we're talking about the situation as Oda wrote it in the manga from an in-universe perspective.
In universe, it was portrayed such that had Ace made a smarter decision, he would have lived. We're not talking about what Oda wanted to do in a large sense, but what he DID do in a more detail oriented sense. I can understand the people who didn't like the angle that Oda was going for, but to argue that the angle was irrelevant is far worse. There is a difference in the effect and meaning of Ace's death from a characterization, tone, and literary perspective in general between the way he died (falling for a taunt when he could have escaped due to emotional turmoil, impulsiveness, and stupidity) and fighting Akainu because he absolutely needed to to keep moving, or even fighting Akainu when he could personally escape, but Luffy couldn't.
Seriously y do u ppl keep saying this? Ace clashing with Akainu had zero relevance to what actually killed Ace. It was Luffy's weakness that killed Ace thats why Luffy was so distraught after the war, not because Ace was "immature". The only thing that that clash shows is how good Akainu is at manipulating ppl's emotions. Thats it, thats all that clash was. It had no other impact at all whatsoever.
If Luffy was alone, he could have escaped. But if Luffy wanted to protect what was important to him, he was to weak to do so. It shows that for as far as Luffy has gotten, he wasn't far enough to achieve everything without sacrifices. Having Ace die specifically to save Luffy would have similar effects, but it wouldn't convey the idea that Luffy wasn't useless, but wasn't strong enough to go without sacrifices (Which is important, because it justifies the idea that Luffy could have gone to the new world and he could've survived, but not without huge cost and only if he started on a smaller scale, just like the other supernova. Luffy wanted the training in the timeskip not just so he could achieve his dream, but so he could achieve it without losing anything else).
Oh come on do u seriously think Luffy could escape Akainu? Thats just ridiculous, neither Ace or Luffy are outrunning any bloodlusted top tiers they would have been caught by him no matter what or else it just wouldn't make any sense. And Ace's death wasn't to show Luffy can survive if he makes sacrifices it was to show that he need to become stronger to protect the ppl he cares about.
Seriously y do u ppl keep saying this? Ace clashing with Akainu had zero relevance to what actually killed Ace. It was Luffy's weakness that killed Ace thats why Luffy was so distraught after the war, not because Ace was "immature". The only thing that that clash shows is how good Akainu is at manipulating ppl's emotions. Thats it, thats all that clash was. It had no other impact at all whatsoever.
Oh come on do u seriously think Luffy could escape Akainu? Thats just ridiculous, neither Ace or Luffy are outrunning any bloodlusted top tiers they would have been caught by him no matter what or else it just wouldn't make any sense. And Ace's death wasn't to show Luffy can survive if he makes sacrifices it was to show that he need to become stronger to protect the ppl he cares about.
They were clearly going to get away. I don't think Akainu was even chasing them at that point. That's why details are important.
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And Akainu didn't manipulate Ace's emotions. He took advantage of the fact that Ace was already in an emotionally unstable state and used that to bait him. There's a huge difference.
As we all know, it's impossible to outrun Akainu, which is why he also let all the other pirates get away, due to his absolute mastery of manipulation
Are. You. Able. To. Distinguish. Between. Literacy perspective and in-story perspective?
Clearly the answer is no, as I stated you wouldn't in my last post.
All you accomplished with this nonsense is proving what I had guessed.Dude. You stop. Jesus Christ.
You didn't establish anything but your own inability to see the larger picture, the significance and the meaning of a plot device, and general incomprehension of a story structure.You do realize there's no way in hell that dude (clearly not Aaron) will understand your sarcasm, right.
I fail to see how anything is wrong in a literacy or in-story perspective.
@Gliblord:
So it's impossible to die unless it's the absolute 100% only possibility
When the hell did I say that?
@TheCrystalShip:
I don't actually think that Ace was a bad character, in fact, I kind of liked him.
There, I said it.
He's not these ppl in this thread just seem to have an irrational dislike for him based on their ridiculous perceptions of him clashing with Akainu as him being "immature".
@Aaronrules380:
They were clearly going to get away. I don't think Akainu was even chasing them at that point. That's why details are important.
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And Akainu didn't manipulate Ace's emotions. He took advantage of the fact that Ace was already in an emotionally unstable state and used that to bait him. There's a huge difference.
Do u really think Akainu was just gonna sit by and let Ace and Luffy, whom he considers some of the most dangerous ppl in the world, get away? Come on now thats just ridiculous. And yes baiting someone who is "emotionally unstable" is manipulating their emotions.@Gliblord:
As we all know, it's impossible to outrun Akainu, which is why he also let all the other pirates get away, due to his absolute mastery of manipulation
Wth are u talking about? Do u not remember how Akainu kept pursuing Luffy after he had killed Ace and fought all the commanders to get to him? Or how they ordered the marines to go after and kill every pirate so they can't escape? Seriously the selective amnesia in this thread is astonishing.
Here's the actual chapter where what we're talking about happens, from the first relevant page
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v58/c573/10.html
As you can clearly see, Akainu is not really chasing them. Ace stops running after a few taunts (which are informed taunts that had a hint of truth to them, but they weren't anything that special given who's saying them and the situation in general, its pretty clear for a rational person to see that he's just baiting Ace.) and heads BACK towards Akainu. Luffy goes after Ace, while everyone else tells him to stop because its absolutely pointless and stupid to not keep running
The reason why I hate the decision of Ace to face-off Akainu was because it didn't even fit with if his "I don't run because I got something important to protect".
