you know what: Caesar can stay and become a Strawhat. I got used to him. Kinemon is still kinda annoying and can leave, but I'm really enjoying Caesar.
Next Strawhat Crewmate (Vol. 6)
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Caesar has no chance at a full on redemption, so that isn't going to happen.
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you know what: Caesar can stay and become a Strawhat. I got used to him. Kinemon is still kinda annoying and can leave, but I'm really enjoying Caesar.
I'm really used to having both of them around. It will be weird when they finally leave (given the fact that I don't think they'll join). It wasn't the same with Vivi with me (on the being "used to" thing) because I only started reading One Piece week to week by the end of Skypiea. So I read Whiskey Peak-Alabasta kinda fast. From my point of view, Vivi was there for a short time.
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I think Raizo is the most likely candidate at the moment, even though we haven't even seen him yet.
Luffy's reaction when they told him he's a ninja was a great indication (Chapter 803).
He seems to be at the very center of this arc. -
@Helter:
I'm really used to having both of them around. It will be weird when they finally leave (given the fact that I don't think they'll join). It wasn't the same with Vivi with me (on the being "used to" thing) because I only started reading One Piece week to week by the end of Skypiea. So I read Whiskey Peak-Alabasta kinda fast. From my point of view, Vivi was there for a short time.
I started reading One Piece around 2001 or 2002 so I was devastated when Vivi decided to stay :C And I eagerly await every of her appearances. I have big hopes for her eventual comeback at Reverie. Same with Enel and and Crocodile. Just amazing characters. And I was definitely in the Paulie corner when the two possible choices were either Paulie or Franky.
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It wasn't until this latest chapter that I even gave the tiniest consideration to Caesar joining the crew, but he has been getting so much panel time over the past few arcs and has found himself tied into and instigating so many major plot points (i.e: Don Flamingo, Momo, Kaido, Big Mom, The World Government, Vegapunk) that I am actually starting to see a possibility here.
I mean if we want to talk about Straw Hats needing quirks and re-occurring gags. Caesar is chalk full of them. His main one shown so far being his extremely gushy responses to praise, whether it be from friend or foe.He is also starting to develop a rapport with multiple members of the crew, and has been a much more light hearted and gag-centric character since he's been taken hostage. It makes me wonder why Oda is taking the time to show us a different qualities of Caesar. Not too mention the sheer amount of face-faults Oda has given him. I mean he rivals any major character in that category.
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! Not to mention this gem:
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Design wise, he has one of the most unique and detailed designs of any character in a long time in my opinion. He has a strong theme (sort of butoh/clown combination. Butoh is a dance performed in all white make-up and was created after the nuclear bomb was dropped. Which I think ties in very deeply with the Punk Hazard plot and his Gas fruit. But I digress).
A weaker argument, but I still feel is worth mentioning is that he is a scientist. Now that is just unique and specific enough to not overlap with Chopper's role as doctor or with Franky as an inventor/Shipwright. As the One Piece world starts to grow bigger with the New World, we have started to come across things that fall under the purview of science (Smile fruits, Kuma, Weatheria, not to mention all the theories running around about the different planets of One Piece). And lets not forget he is an actual mad scientist, come on that is pretty sweet.
Now we have seen the converted criminal tropes throughout Shonen manga. And I know the argument could be said that Robin has already served as that role, but she really wasn't a true "villain". The more you found out about her, the less you considered her evil and so there was no real need for redemption.
If you look at many other manga's, you'll find that an audience can be insanely forgiving of a character. It could easily be argued that at certain points in DBZ fans could have said that there was no possible way Vegeta would ever fight along side Goku. Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho also comes to mind. I know I have started to find myself continually more endeared to Caesar as the story has progressed.
I think he truly would add a different dynamic to the crew. A truly dark character who has done really messed up things would be one of the more original and unexplored territory for One Piece. Not to mention, he could be a very interesting way into this whole "underworld" that seems to be huge in the New World.
And I might be way off here, but I think moment's like this actually help his chances.
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I don't know about you, but in stories when characters give huge declarative statements, especially in comedic situations and stories, I think it is prime set up for our expectations to be subverted.
I have no idea how Oda would spin it, but I wouldn't put it past him to somehow keep Caesar around. Now this falls into total speculation but I feel like taking one of the most morally appalling characters in the series so far and somehow managing to turn him into Nakama material is exactly the kind of twist Oda could pull off. I personally find it very funny to see just how far a long they end up dragging this hostage through the New world. So far he has been with them every step of the way. Anyway just some thoughts I wanted to get down, I don't know how much merit the idea holds.
So in summation, Caesar for permanent hostage/next nakama
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The only way a Caesar redemption would be remotely acceptable would be if it was extremely gradual, over a long in-universe timeframe. It would require dedicated development, something I'm not sure Oda is interested in pursuing.
He could hypothetically get redeemed anyway, but Caesar going "I've known the straw hat pirates for two weeks now, so I've become a good person!" would be the worst thing ever. OP can be pretty blassé with consequences for non-motherkilling villains, but Caesar went into such over-the-top Spandam level territory that he really deserves them. -
@Daz:
The only way a Caesar redemption would be remotely acceptable would be if it was extremely gradual, over a long in-universe timeframe. It would require dedicated development, something I'm not sure Oda is interested in pursuing.
He could get hypothetically get redeemed anyway, but Caesar going "I've known the straw hat pirates for two weeks now, so I've become a good person!" would be the worst thing ever. OP can be pretty blassé with consequences for non-motherkilling villains, but Caesar went into such over-the-top Spandam level territory that he really deserves them.I absolutely agree that it would have to be a very long and delicate process in order for a redemption character arc to even be remotely satisfying as a reader and from a story telling perspective. I just see a lot of potential in it, and I have the sneaky suspicion that Oda is building something big. With Spandam his justice was swift and oh so satisfying when he got his spine broken in half, which just begs the question, why is Oda keeping him around. It would have been easy to write him off once the Punk Hazard arc was done, he would get his cover story and we would all move on. But not only does he keep him involved, he has put him right smack dab in the middle of everything. And once again made him a major plot point in this arc so far, it was his gas weapon that has devastated Zou. It could have easily been a myriad of other events that caused that damage from a narrative point of view. I feel like Oda likes to play with how the characters join the Straw Hats, from Robin deciding for Luffy, to Luffy black mailing Franky with his speedo. To have a character slowly join, changing bit by bit, finding himself constantly involved whether he likes it or not is a new and interesting way to get a crew member.
Not to mention he lost his Government immunity when Don Flamingo was defeated. He has a HUGE target on his back from every faction at this point. That alone makes him even more interesting. To me, I just feel like whatever goes down with the clown needs to be major. I mean I think it would equally as unsatisfying as getting hypothetically redeemed anyway, if at the end of an upcoming arc he just gets released or escapes for some contrary reason.
I have a hunch that his character arc might be very heavily tied with the insanely foreshadowed Vegapunk. We have been (or at least I have been) waiting for a way to meet and explore Vegapunk and his crazy inventions and intentions. What better way to cross paths with him and create a personal relationship to the Straw Hats than to have his ex-partner and rival tied in with the crew. Granted I have no idea if Vegapunk harbors the same feelings towards Caesar as Caesar does to Vegapunk. It just all seems so lined up and intentional.
Spoiler:
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John Snow, you know nothing.
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No, the guy that gleefully poisoned children and murdered people is not going to be a strawhat. An ally maybe, but no, he is never going to be one of the main 10.
Nor will his well endowed harpy partner who turned into a monster and ate chunks out of people.
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No, the guy that gleefully poisoned children and murdered people is not going to be a strawhat. An ally maybe, but no, he is never going to be one of the main 10.
Nor will his well endowed harpy partner who turned into a monster and ate chunks out of people.
Haha, fair enough. I see what you mean. Even I am surprised that I am entertaining the idea.
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No, the guy that gleefully poisoned children and murdered people is not going to be a strawhat. An ally maybe, but no, he is never going to be one of the main 10.
Nor will his well endowed harpy partner who turned into a monster and ate chunks out of people.
Tell them!
Luffy literally hate people like Caesar, who thinks that he will be a nakama is not OP reader. -
@Jinbe#10:
Tell them!
Luffy literally hate people like Caesar, who thinks that he will be a nakama is not OP reader.I fully disagree with that statement seeing how I am an avid One Piece fan since 2001.
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I fully disagree with that statement seeing how I am an avid One Piece fan since 2001.
Then you should know better.
Luffy hated Caesar and still does.
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as a reader of one piece, Luffy stopped hating Caesar and is in more of a "indifference" state towards him.
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No, the guy that gleefully poisoned children and murdered people is not going to be a strawhat. An ally maybe, but no, he is never going to be one of the main 10.
Nor will his well endowed harpy partner who turned into a monster and ate chunks out of people.
I completely agree. Although I harbour no ill feeling toward Monet despite her past crimes, I just don't see her as a Straw Hat.
I came to this thread a few times and glimpsed at some posts that support the idea that Caesar will be a Straw Hat, but I fail to see that happening. In addition to what you said, the guy still showed no remorse when he stumbled upon the harvest of his actions at Zou. Au contraire, he was rejoicing at that. Furthermore, he wouldn't have lent his aid to Chopper in order to prevent the massacre of an entire nation if Sanji hadn't threatened to harm his heart. I mean up till now, nothing has changed in him. I must admit that he is funny when they start exploiting him, but that is the only good thing about him.
I don't mind seeing him present in the story until Kaido's defeat, but I can't see him becoming a Straw Hat. I also would like to see a good argument on this idea: I would like to see some good reasons why people desire him to join the crew. I am not against the idea, I just find it completely odd for Caesar to join the crew. I mean this is kind of like wanting Akainu to be the next Straw Hat despite murdering Ace.
On the other hand, if he had begun to show regret of his past crimes along with a fervent desire to help those in need of help, I would have started seeing things differently.
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as a reader of one piece, Luffy stopped hating Caesar and is in more of a "indifference" state towards him.
Mostly because Law was insisting "we need this guy for plans" and Luffy was all "ooh, pirate alliance!" Not because he became indifferent but because there wasn't much to do about it. Luffy very specifically does NOT like him though.
And that aside… Luffy hasn't even been on panel with Ceaser in like 2 years, not since the very start of Dresserossa. Of course he hasn't had a reaction to Ceaser lately. Other than to have forgotten the guy existed except as an afterthought, compared to his crew.
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I absolutely agree that it would have to be a very long and delicate process in order for a redemption character arc to even be remotely satisfying as a reader and from a story telling perspective. I just see a lot of potential in it, and I have the sneaky suspicion that Oda is building something big. With Spandam his justice was swift and oh so satisfying when he got his spine broken in half, which just begs the question, why is Oda keeping him around. It would have been easy to write him off once the Punk Hazard arc was done, he would get his cover story and we would all move on. But not only does he keep him involved, he has put him right smack dab in the middle of everything. And once again made him a major plot point in this arc so far, it was his gas weapon that has devastated Zou. It could have easily been a myriad of other events that caused that damage from a narrative point of view. I feel like Oda likes to play with how the characters join the Straw Hats, from Robin deciding for Luffy, to Luffy black mailing Franky with his speedo. To have a character slowly join, changing bit by bit, finding himself constantly involved whether he likes it or not is a new and interesting way to get a crew member.
Its certainly a change for the norm to have a villain tag along for so many chapters, but to me CC has been painted more as a plotdevice than anything else. He and his SAD production sets everyone on the Dressrosa/Kaido railroad, he (and Momonosuke) ships half the crew off to Zou, he sets up the Straw Hats as heroes of Zou, and now it looks like he might shunt everyone off into a Rescue Sanji/Big Mom arc, so we can deal with her before Wano and Kaido.
Once Oda is done using CC to shift the characters around he might recieve a Get Out of Jail Free card solely based on the duration of his presence in the story; Caesar getting dumped on the marines and sent to jail would be 100% justified no matter when it happens, but would feel like a narrative afterthought. Caesar would need to be hyper-despicable all over again for a capture to carry any weight. He could still be jailed as a punchline, but I think it equally likely that he just sails off, maybe has a cover story, and then appears as a tentative ally near the very end.
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CC might just be a plot guy right now, but he could be a usefull ally, for plots to come.
I feel like he didn't want to help on Zou, not to see people suffer, but to see the power of his creation unfold.
If he gets the recognizion, that his weapon is the best ever, he might look for a new goal.
An intelligent Captain like Rob Lucci or Law could direkt his intention to get recognized into some positive field of R&D. -
CC might just be a plot guy right now, but he could be a usefull ally, for plots to come.
I feel like he didn't want to help on Zou, not to see people suffer, but to see the power of his creation unfold.
If he gets the recognizion, that his weapon is the best ever, he might look for a new goal.
An intelligent Captain like Rob Lucci or Law could direkt his intention to get recognized into some positive field of R&D.Yeah, I also might see him joining Law…although he still need a bigger redemption before that happening...
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We're still talking about Caesar? The guy who, in the most recent chapter, was gleeful over the fact that his bio-weapon was being used to kill innocent people?
Ok. Sure. Yeah.
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The one who acted villainously in the past, but deserves to be the next nakama is Bellamy. I'd very much love to see that happening.
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I think the Bellamy for next nakama boat has well and truly sailed. He's had his whiny redemption and he'll be back later but not as a member of the crew. There's no compelling argument for his joining.
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Remember that Luffy's alliance all had numbers and spotlights whereas Bellamy had none of these? I think that was done because he is being reserved for something of greater grandeur: becoming one of the Straw Hats. Besides, I seem to recall from somewhere that Oda-sensei said that the next nakama is going to be a villain from the past? Is this true, or is it just an internet hoax?
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The one who acted villainously in the past, but deserves to be the next nakama is Bellamy. I'd very much love to see that happening.
Robin says hello
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Yeah, I love her, too.
Ah my apologies misread your post when I said that.
Unfortunately I don't think Bellamy joining is going to happen as much as I want it to.
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as a reader of one piece, Luffy stopped hating Caesar and is in more of a "indifference" state towards him.
Nope. Notice the angry vein popping.
Also, indiffererence is not better at all.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Remember that Luffy's alliance all had numbers and spotlights whereas Bellamy had none of these? I think that was done because he is being reserved for something of greater grandeur: becoming one of the Straw Hats. Besides, I seem to recall from somewhere that Oda-sensei said that the next nakama is going to be a villain from the past? Is this true, or is it just an internet hoax?
Bellamy unfortunately suffers from his power overlapping with Luffy's.
Even more now that Luffy has Gear 4th. In that form, Luffy is literally a better Spring Man than Bellamy himself.
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Ah my apologies misread your post when I said that.
Unfortunately I don't think Bellamy joining is going to happen as much as I want it to.
Don't worry about it ;) it happens to me as well, especially when I am in a hurry.
Yeah, that's a morbid possibility unfortunately, but there are also hints corroborating the possibility of joining the crew. It would also be a great act by Oda-sensei because making him the next Straw Hat would symbolize absolution.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Bellamy unfortunately suffers from his power overlapping with Luffy's.
Even more now that Luffy has Gear 4th. In that form, Luffy is literally a better Spring Man than Bellamy himself.
Shouldn't the same be said about Diable Jambe and Red Hawk?
Besides, what kind of problem does this raise in regard to him being the next SH? Their abilities, despite being slightly similar only when Luffy is in G4, are still very different.
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I really feel as if Carrot could be the next to join our crew. Sure she doesn't have alot of screentime yet, but we've gotten a couple of glimpses of her abilities. She's got that cool mid-air maneuverability, plus melee electrical attacks (not to outshine Nami's long range, indiscriminate Lighting )
Plus she's a female,something the Crew has been in need of another for some time. She's visually more interesting than Wanda compared to current crew members (more unique hairstyle, features, and height). Also seeing as she and Wanda share a duty on Zou, she would not be leaving a vacancy if she leaves.
And on an absolutely personal level, I feel she and Chopper together would be too damn adorable to handle. Merchandise merchandise merchandise! (I ship it)
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Shouldn't the same be said about Diable Jambe and Red Hawk?
Besides, what kind of problem does this raise in regard to him being the next SH? Their abilities, despite being slightly similar only when Luffy is in G4, are still very different.
Red Hawk is just an offensive technique. Diablo Jambe is a "super mode" that grants Sanji an overall strength power up.
Their abilities aren't that different either. Bellamy's "Spring Death Knock", his one new technique from post-timeskip, is practically the same as Luffy's Gomu Gomu Pistol. Luffy's Gear 4th flight mode is essentially Bellamy's Spring Hopper, but without the need of walls.
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Remember that Luffy's alliance all had numbers and spotlights whereas Bellamy had none of these? I think that was done because he is being reserved for something of greater grandeur: becoming one of the Straw Hats. Besides, I seem to recall from somewhere that Oda-sensei said that the next nakama is going to be a villain from the past? Is this true, or is it just an internet hoax?
Oda said it but not that an old villain/boss would be joining the crew. Something more along the lines of an old boss/villian would join Luffy and then he will head to the new world. I forget the exact wording but Buggy, Crocodile and even Mr 3 fulfilled the loose criteria. He was specifically talking about what was going on with Impel Down and the War at the time. Everybody went nuts over of that comment.
Though thinking about it now, i'm sure you could twist it all around to make it mean that Jinbe was the intended meaning.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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Are we really talking about Bellamy?
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Red Hawk is just an offensive technique. Diablo Jambe is a "super mode" that grants Sanji an overall strength power up.
Right. To put it simply: Diable Jambe is Sanji's Gear Second. Like you said, it's a mode, not an attack.
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My only problem with Sanji's fire attacks is that he will always look like the mera mera no mi wannabe user. Wish he would focus more on CoA or something.
Aldo, considering his potential relation to WG, maybe he will be a rokushiki master?(and since skywalk is geppou)
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@uniaka:
My only problem with Sanji's fire attacks is that he will always look like the mera mera no mi wannabe user. Wish he would focus more on CoA or something.
Aldo, considering his potential relation to WG, maybe he will be a rokushiki master?(and since skywalk is geppou)
I guess we could say that he's been using Diable Jambe mixed with CoA ever since the timeskip. But that is kinda tricky for us to see (and for Oda to draw) since he ofter wears black pants/shoes. Those become white while using DJ, but they should be black white using CoA, so… uh...
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@uniaka:
My only problem with Sanji's fire attacks is that he will always look like the mera mera no mi wannabe user. Wish he would focus more on CoA or something.
Aldo, considering his potential relation to WG, maybe he will be a rokushiki master?(and since skywalk is geppou)
He won't be using Shigan, so that's out of question.
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Sanji could mix Diable Jambe with Rankyaku.
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thanks my friends :wub:
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Red Hawk is just an offensive technique. Diablo Jambe is a "super mode" that grants Sanji an overall strength power up.
Their abilities aren't that different either. Bellamy's "Spring Death Knock", his one new technique from post-timeskip, is practically the same as Luffy's Gomu Gomu Pistol. Luffy's Gear 4th flight mode is essentially Bellamy's Spring Hopper, but without the need of walls.
It is both a means and an end. Every fiery attack that Sanji uses is simply Diable Jambe under a different name. That is, he hits his adversary with Diable Jambe, but the method of attack has a name. I did not want to be specific about which one of his fiery attacks he uses, so I left it general by saying Diable Jambe.
Whatever the differences are, the fact remains two people in the same crew use fiery attacks with their limbs.
In any case, you still did not tell me how similarities in fighting techniques create an impediment to joining the Straw Hats.
@RomanceDawn:Oda said it but not that an old villain/boss would be joining the crew. Something more along the lines of an old boss/villian would join Luffy and then he will head to the new world. I forget the exact wording but Buggy, Crocodile and even Mr 3 fulfilled the loose criteria. He was specifically talking about what was going on with Impel Down and the War at the time. Everybody went nuts over of that comment.
Though thinking about it now, i'm sure you could twist it all around to make it mean that Jinbe was the intended meaning.
Thank you very much for the valuable information, RomanceDawn. If Jimbei doesn't join the crew, I am gonna eat your hat (haha). But seriously, I'd be sorely dispirited.
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Aside from Jinbe I really don't see anyone else as a potential crew member currently. Caesar's out for obvious reasons, and I feel as though a mink would just be edging into Chopper's niche.
As for Bellamy - I believe that ship has sailed and agree with King Cannon in that his fighting style as a whole would be too similar to Luffy's. However I do believe that he will return as an ally, captaining his own crew and chasing one piece for himself; not serving under the Strawhats, but rather alongside of them. Much like how Whitebeard had his 16 divisions who wanted to make him the pirate king, he was also allied with a bunch of captains who were likely after that title for themselves; I believe that the Strawhats will mostly be making allies rather than crewmates at this point. So - rather than a single mink joining, I believe they will be subscribing to the Strawhats to fight alongside them as an entirety in some way or another.
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It is both a means and an end. Every fiery attack that Sanji uses is simply Diable Jambe under a different name. That is, he hits his adversary with Diable Jambe, but the method of attack has a name. I did not want to be specific about which one of his fiery attacks he uses, so I left it general by saying Diable Jambe.
Whatever the differences are, the fact remains two people in the same crew use fiery attacks with their limbs.
In any case, you still did not tell me how similarities in fighting techniques create an impediment to joining the Straw Hats.
The problem with Bellamy is that there's nothing he can do that others in the crew can't do. It's all about uniqueness.
Stretch punches? Luffy has that. And he does it even better in Gear 4th, where he practically rips off Bellamy by using compressed spring punches and kicks.
Bouncing? Luffy does that much better in Gear 4th to the point of flight. Sanji can literally fly too.
Seriously, when you think about it, Gear 4th was probably inspired by Bellamy himself. The whole thing is based on compressed force, which is the main idea behind Bellamy's spring powers. It makes sense, as springs are elastic devices, so it's not hard for rubber to emulate it.
And aside from Luffy and Sanji, Usopp, Franky and even Nami have their own heat-related techniques. But alas, those moves are just a small part of their moveset (including Luffy's Red Hawk). Sanji is the only truly dedicated fire user in the crew, and no one in the crew kicks like him, so there's no overlapping at all.
It's a similar argument to Zoro and Brook, who are both swordsmen, but one is a raw one while the other is essentially a magic fencer.
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He won't be using Shigan, so that's out of question.
He would be a master so Sanji could use his toes/feet instead. TOE GUN! :ninja:
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Bellamy unfortunately suffers from his power overlapping with Luffy's
And his personality overlapping with Sunny's.
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It really baffled me why CC is even being discussed. No amount of redemption is going to make him good in my eyes
Not only did he poisoned children, he experimented on them without giving a shit about their life.
Those children may not even live to adulthood because of the experiment done on them. They also still faced an drug addiction problem which will take a long while to heal.
Of couse with Vegapunk's medical skills, some of the negative effects will be removed. But it still won't undo the shit that CC done.
Also, he was happy seeing innocent minks being poisoned by his weapon. -
To be honest, I don't think what Caesar did nullifies his chances of joining by itself. If Oda wanted to, he could make this a chance to show that people can change by having this really bad guy slowly turning good and trying to repent by changing his ways from then on.
Problem is: he clearly isn't going that way. Caesar is around for quite a while and has never shown any sign of regret for everything he did, on the contrary, he is still very proud on himself. If Oda wanted Caesar to go the "redemption" way, certainly we would have seen some change in his ways by now since it is not something that can be done abruptly - I concede CC staying for this long is weird, though.
Now that I think about it, I suddenly want a villain to join the SH, but I think Robin is the closest we'll get of that.
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People really need to stop justifying their fanfiction theory with the argument "ITZ ODA'S STORY, HE CANZ MAEK ANYTHIN HAPPENZ IF HE WANTS TO". Yes, he could make Caesar join the crew. He could also skip all Yonkou and cut directly to Luffy finding One Piece on Raftel. He could reveal that Blackbeard is Luffy turned evil from the future, travelling back in time to prevent himself from finding the One Piece, for whatever reason. But all those scenarios would be shitty writing and this isn't Fairy Tail.
Anyone who believes that with just enough time, we'll genuinely root for Caesar to achieve his dream - to show that he's a better scientist than Vegapunk by developing THE weapon of mass destruction, killing thousands and thousands of people without regret to boost his own ego - is in denial of the story structures that the author has built on for over a decade.
