Legacies, Parallels, and Fate

[semil]

Without even knowing what the Will of D is, we can't really begin to guess who might or might not have it.

[triforcebih]

Both of them are bad ass charters so why not. But I dont really care about the will of D. Edward<3

[Alban]

The reason I don't think Garp has it is because all he did with his life was to work as a marine. He was content being a vice admiral chasing down pirates.

I think it's possible that Dragon has it but since we still don't know much about his past, there isn't a whole lot of reason to believe it.

By analyzing Luffy, who apparently has the Will of D, I believe it has to do with his ability to make people his ally, his aspiration to become the greatest pirate, the freest man in the world. His will to keep on fighting and living even in the face of death. How he cares more about the lives of his nakama than his own. I think it was also seen when he smiled at the execution platform, something I doubt any of the other D's besides Roger would do.

Edit: Though I agree, Garp and Dragon are badass.

[semil]

@Alban:

The reason I don't think Garp has it is because all he did with his life was to work as a marine. He was content being a vice admiral chasing down pirates.

I think it's possible that Dragon has it but since we still don't know much about his past, there isn't a whole lot of reason to believe it.

By analyzing Luffy, who apparently has the Will of D, I believe it has to do with his ability to make people his ally, his aspiration to become the greatest pirate, the freest man in the world. His will to keep on fighting and living even in the face of death. How he cares more about the lives of his nakama than his own. I think it was also seen when he smiled at the execution platform, something I doubt any of the other D's besides Roger would do.

Edit: Though I agree, Garp and Dragon are badass.

Eh, we still don't know what it is.

But so far everyone with the initial D has died with a smile on their face. I think if either Dragon or Garp died it would be the same for them. Whatever the Will of D might be, it seems the D's all share the tendency to live their lives without regrets.

[Alban]

@semil:

But so far everyone with the initial D has died with a smile on their face. I think if either Dragon or Garp died it would be the same for them.

Ah, you're right. I redact that part of my post.

[triforcebih]

@Alban:

By analyzing Luffy, who apparently has the Will of D, I believe it has to do with his ability to make people his ally, his aspiration to become the greatest pirate, the freest man in the world. His will to keep on fighting and living even in the face of death. How he cares more about the lives of his nakama than his own. I think it was also seen when he smiled at the execution platform, something I doubt any of the other D's besides Roger would do.

Well Ivankov said that he is just like his dad. So there is a high posibility that Dragon has the Will of D.

I also have a weird feeling bout him. So far he was unimportant but he'll be a great charter and he will turn the world upside down . There are endless posibilities

[gottalt3OP]

Heck, everyone with a D. has the will of the D. O_O.
What would be the point of them having a D. in the name and not having the "will of the D"?
Its just that we don't fuckin' know what it is. We know that some one with a D. in his name is destined to find the one piece.
For all we know D. could stand for douche and it wouldn't be totally wrong would it? (In the connotative sense of the word, not as in the vagina cleaning object, obviously.)

[MasterKingJC]

Usopp has Will of D.
It's completely obvious.

[Alban]

@gotta<3OP:

Heck, everyone with a D. has the will of the D. O_O.
What would be the point of them having a D. in the name and not having the "will of the D"?
Its just that we don't fuckin' know what it is. We know that some one with a D. in his name is destined to find the one piece.
For all we know D. could stand for douche and it wouldn't be totally wrong would it? (In the connotative sense of the word, not as in the vagina cleaning object, obviously.)

You're wrong. Marshall D. Teach does not have the Will of D. Read 576 again, page 11. Though I suppose I should add that WB does say Ace has it so I'll add him to the list.

[MasterKingJC]

@Alban:

You're wrong. Marshall D. Teach does not have the Will of D. Read 576 again, page 11. Though I suppose I should add that WB does say Ace has it so I'll add him to the list.

Are you warped? Whitebeard never said Teach didn't have the Will of D. He said Teach wasn't one of "the men that Roger waited for". This can be interpreted as those with the Will of D, or something else. We know very little about Teach and the Will, but I'm pretty damn sure everybody with a D has this will.

[Alban]

@MasterKingJC:

Are you warped? Whitebeard never said Teach didn't have the Will of D. He said Teach wasn't one of "the men that Roger waited for". This can be interpreted as those with the Will of D, or something else. We know very little about Teach and the Will, but I'm pretty damn sure everybody with a D has this will.

Are you dense? What else could he be talking about? The last panel was Roger about to tell Whitebeard about D. He was just reminiscing about it, how blatant does it need to be? Read it in context and it becomes even more clear. He was just telling Roger about Teach in his flashback and then he has his 'epiphany' and outright tells BB he isn't one of them, one of the men Roger waits for, those who have the Will of D.

"You're not one of them the men Roger waits for are a very rare few but not you Teach, You are not one of them." Which is immediately followed up with him saying "Those who carry the will of Roger and now have also come to carry the will of the late Ace even though the bloodline has extinguished their flame has yet to disappear…" Do you really need Oda to smack you across the face with a "BB DOES NOT HAVE THE WILL OF D." to realize it?

[murderedboy]

@triforcebih:

And Garp… and Dragon :ninja:

and Pan D. Aman…

[choperman]

@Alban:

Are you dense? What else could he be talking about? The last panel was Roger about to tell Whitebeard about D. He was just reminiscing about it, how blatant does it need to be? Read it in context and it becomes even more clear. He was just telling Roger about Teach in his flashback and then he has his 'epiphany' and outright tells BB he isn't one of them, one of the men Roger waits for, those who have the Will of D.

"You're not one of them the men Roger waits for are a very rare few but not you Teach, You are not one of them." Which is immediately followed up with him saying "Those who carry the will of Roger and now have also come to carry the will of the late Ace even though the bloodline has extinguished their flame has yet to disappear…" Do you really need Oda to smack you across the face with a "BB DOES NOT HAVE THE WILL OF D." to realize it?

your showing why people don't like 2010 posters, he is a will of D he just isn't like the ones Roger wants, he wasn't willing to die for what he believed in he's very different from the D's we've seen before, obviously he's one of them, your the one who's being dense, apologize

[murderedboy]

@Alban:

Are you dense? What else could he be talking about? The last panel was Roger about to tell Whitebeard about D. He was just reminiscing about it, how blatant does it need to be? Read it in context and it becomes even more clear. He was just telling Roger about Teach in his flashback and then he has his 'epiphany' and outright tells BB he isn't one of them, one of the men Roger waits for, those who have the Will of D.

"You're not one of them the men Roger waits for are a very rare few but not you Teach, You are not one of them." Which is immediately followed up with him saying "Those who carry the will of Roger and now have also come to carry the will of the late Ace even though the bloodline has extinguished their flame has yet to disappear…" Do you really need Oda to smack you across the face with a "BB DOES NOT HAVE THE WILL OF D." to realize it?

You're wrong, stop acting like an ass especially when you're wrong. Roger is not waiting for all people with the Will of D. He is "waiting" for a special group among those with the Will of D.

[WarshipArc]

@Alban:

Are you dense? What else could he be talking about? The last panel was Roger about to tell Whitebeard about D. He was just reminiscing about it, how blatant does it need to be? Read it in context and it becomes even more clear. He was just telling Roger about Teach in his flashback and then he has his 'epiphany' and outright tells BB he isn't one of them, one of the men Roger waits for, those who have the Will of D.

"You're not one of them the men Roger waits for are a very rare few but not you Teach, You are not one of them." **<this< does="" not="" relate="" to="">THIS></this<>**Which is immediately followed up with him saying "Those who carry the will of Roger and now have also come to carry the will of the late Ace even though the bloodline has extinguished their flame has yet to disappear…" Do you really need Oda to smack you across the face with a "BB DOES NOT HAVE THE WILL OF D." to realize it?

The "Will of D" and the man Roger was waiting for are two entirely different things until proven otherwise.Do not cite evidence that does not exist.

[MasterKingJC]

@Alban:

Are you dense? What else could he be talking about? The last panel was Roger about to tell Whitebeard about D. He was just reminiscing about it, how blatant does it need to be? Read it in context and it becomes even more clear. He was just telling Roger about Teach in his flashback and then he has his 'epiphany' and outright tells BB he isn't one of them, one of the men Roger waits for, those who have the Will of D.

"You're not one of them the men Roger waits for are a very rare few but not you Teach, You are not one of them." Which is immediately followed up with him saying "Those who carry the will of Roger and now have also come to carry the will of the late Ace even though the bloodline has extinguished their flame has yet to disappear…" Do you really need Oda to smack you across the face with a "BB DOES NOT HAVE THE WILL OF D." to realize it?

Slooow your shit, chief. As mentioned previously, Teach has THE WILL of D. He just isn't one of the chosen few.

[Esev]

@murderedboy:

and Pan D. Aman…

:blink:
AMAZING!!

my wish to see pandaman joining + Pan D. Aman =

[Alban]

@choperman:

your showing why people don't like 2010 posters, he is a will of D he just isn't like the ones Roger wants, he wasn't willing to die for what he believed in he's very different from the D's we've seen before, obviously he's one of them, your the one who's being dense, apologize

Eh, the only reason I put "Are you dense?" was in response to his "Are you warped?" I took it as disrespect for no reason. But I will apologize since I'm not trying to make enemies and it was just an angry response.

I apologize for calling you dense and disrespecting you MasterKingJC.

I was just trying to voice my opinion about BB mainly because I think he's a jerk and based on my view of the Will of D. it would be somewhat contradictory for him to have it. But as it has been said we don't even fully know what the Will of D. is so the argument is a moot point.

[choperman]

@Alban:

Eh, the only reason I put "Are you dense?" was in response to his "Are you warped?" I took it as disrespect for no reason. But I will apologize since I'm not trying to make enemies and it was just an angry response.

I apologize for calling you dense and disrespecting you MasterKingJC.

I was just trying to voice my opinion about BB mainly because I think he's a jerk and based on my view of the Will of D. it would be somewhat contradictory for him to have it. But as it has been said we don't even fully know what the Will of D. is so the argument is a moot point.

okay were good….. Here have a cookie

[Zkaiser]

This post is deleted!

[Noqanky]

This post is deleted!

[WarshipArc]

This post is deleted!

[gottalt3OP]

This post is deleted!

[Mr. Sandman]

This post is deleted!

[Castelmore]

This post is deleted!

[Refii]

As Whitebeard states, he may have the will but he is not chosen.
In general there is a diversity in those that hold the will of D.

Going back to the beginning; The will of D held by Roger and Jaguar D Saul, two men of opposing lifestyles, both with D shaped smiles/laughs.
The will of D is not something inherently Pirate, it may be held by a Marine as well: fact.

Those who share the will of D may reach Raftel: false.
The will of D is independent of the individuals that share it, both Teach and Portgas were D's on the man closest to Raftel, yet could not attain the status of Pirate King.

Similarities of the two (tentative) Pirate King's.

• Both are D's.
• Have the ability to draw those they encounter as ally's.

Differences:

• Roger never backed down from a fight, and must have been a beast from start to finish, like his son (minus the being a beast portion).
• Luffy knew to run away, and in fact needed training, which his special ability of drawing those around him provided him.
  In fact, not only did this ability give him the required training in the colors of haki, but quite possibly (subjective) the same log-post Roger once held.

What separates Ace from Luffy from Teach?

• The ability to run, Luffy and Teach know of this.
• The ability to be powerful, in great part due to luck (devil fruits falling into their laps and masters that can teach them) by all.

Luck is a factor that is shared by all D's, questionably not by Jaguar, but ignoring the exception, all D's have the right star above them.
What separates Luffy from the rest is his pedigree, he is the only (to our knowledge) third generation D.

Luffy is a unique individual in that he not only carries the will of D, but also the Crown of the future, aka the stawhat, as the Pirate King did.
Unlike Shanks and Whitebeard, he does seek to be the Pirate King by obtaining One Piece.
His crew is (to our knowledge) the only crew capable of understanding poneglyphs.

What I wish I could understand is the connection between Roger and Luffy.
Also, why Donflamingo isn't a D…

[Urouge]

Unpopular tl;dr theory time! Reincarnation is real in the OP world, and I'm aware that a lot of people will want to fry me for this. Bring it on!

First, I need to define reincarnation in general terms, which comes from Buddhism and Hinduism, among other places (which is a popular basis for manga design). When people hear reincarnation they instinctively wish for it to burn in fiery pit of dog dookie because of how it's been done in some other mangas, but Oda has attacked a lot of concepts well that were done poorly by others and done them well. The most basic skeletal form of Hindu reincarnation is that a soul will continue to be reborn until it is satisfied (it's significantly more complex than this, but everything a manga calls upon is, usually). This does not mean that a soul recalls anything from an earlier life, but rather is the same spirit starting over with a new roll of the dice. Any lingering desires exist outside of the person's conscious thought, and there's no memory of previous lives. In this case, I believe it's just the same spirit/personality/etc in a new body/life. Nothing more and nothing less.

So in effect the concept in terms of the theory means very little. Just that after someone (Roger) dies, there's going to be another guy popping up who's a whole lot like him before long, and he'll be totally oblivious to that fact unless someone tells him, at which point he could still be oblivious anyway. Specifically, I tend to think that there are two opposite spirits which have come down the line over the course of 900 years and are now Luffy and Blackbeard. Blackbeard's, specifically, could have to do a lot with why the destruction of the ancient civilization wasn't black and white. So I'll move on to the supporting evidence for this theory.

Now we have the Will of D, and a lot of people with D in their names. The common theory is that the D's are ancestors of the ancient civilization. I tend to buy into this theory, as the WG seems to be wary of these people.

The real meat of the theory comes with Whitebeard's statement: "Just as there are those who have inherited Roger's will… // ...Ace's will too will someday be inherited by others... / pant / You may eradicate his bloodline, but "their" flames will never die... // ...For many ages, they have been passed down through the generations without fail.........!! / pant / And someday... bearing the weight of all those centuries upon his back... / ...a man will come forth to challenge this world.........!!!" (Cnet's translation). Of course there's a question with the singular/plural of the statement, but in Japanese this is commonplace, and even in the case of plural it could mean people in different eras.

And we've seen for ourselves that the WG does try to eradicate their bloodlines despite the fact that some of them are Marines. The fact that some are Marines tells us that they don't try to eradicate the bloodlines simply because they trace back to some ancient civilization, and the fact that most of them seem to be genuinely good people would suggests that there must be another reason for doing it. Because of how extreme the measures they take are, the reason must be pretty big. Does it really make sense to hunt down an unborn child unless there's reason to believe he might possess the spirit that threatens the WG? In the end, though, while Ace got his hereditary genes from Roger, his personality was totally different as told to us by Whitebeard. No, the one who everyone comments is like Roger is Luffy.

Roger's last words to Rayleigh were that he wouldn't die. But there's no way he could have known that someone would ask him where his treasure was at his execution, and if he's anything like Luffy he wouldn't have thought that far ahead. There must be another reason for him to believe that strongly enough to make such a proclamation. I believe he said at his execution what he thought would inspire him to become a pirate, the promise of a grand adventure. Then we have Crocus wondering if Luffy captained the pirates that they'd been waiting for this entire time. Then we have Shanks commenting that Luffy said the exact same words that Roger did, and he was willing to risk everything to support him. It all seems too specific to be someone who's simply similar and nothing more.

Finally, I think that "Joy Boy" as referenced in chapter 628, is the spirit that the ancient civilization pinned their hopes on, which eventually became Roger and Luffy. There are two trains of thought here. One is that Joy Boy is the person who wrote the poneglyph, which sort of busts this point to pieces if that's the case. The other, which I lean towards, is that Joy Boy is the person the poneglyph is addressed to. If that's the case, it gives the theory a lot of weight. After all why write an apology to someone on unbreakable stone that would survive hundreds or thousands of years unless the person was going to exist a ways into the future? And if the person was going to exist in the future, how would they know unless they expected a particular spirit to be passed on and endure through the ages?

Some people want to separate "will" from the talk of "reincarnation" which is fine, but it most cases it just seems like people are scared of stories involving reincarnation that they didn't like. People are likewise afraid of "fate" but since it's been slapped in our faces it's not something that can easily be hidden from, though it doesn't stop people from trying anyway. It's not a plot that suggests a repeat of events or anything like that, but rather this is the big grand adventure that can finally take place on top of the 900+ years of building blocks. This is a new story as the spirit is put in a new and unique situation, just like all the iterations before him, but this one could be the grand finale over the long course of history.

Of course it's all just a theory, and it could be right and it could be wrong. But it's a theory that I believe fits the evidence, which can be hard to do when there are over 600 chapters of material to line up.

[Vanessa]

[Monkey King]

why the hell would reinacarnations all have the same middle initial

[dominycking]

LOL @ the GIF

16 characters of lol

[Brizan]

Oh wow, what a huge and original theory. I can't say I would particularly like it because I hate the whole "inheritance theme" so much that dragon's reveal as luffy's father made me hate him as a character. I would have been equally compelled if luffy's dad was a random bartender on some random island in the grand line and left Goa to persue his dreams of seeing the world's best bar fight (flashback to Terry, the bartender in mocktown). The strawhat was way too much in my oppinion.

Even with my hate towards "inheritance" this theory has a strange appeal to it in that blackbeard has just a big a role in the scheme of things. Luffy's story so far is such a great "rags to riches story" I would hate for it to be ruined by destiny.

Wow, I feel I went a bit off topic, it is late anyways. However, the idea of reincarnation in one piece doesnt bother me at all, but roger and luffy being the same person does, how unfair for Kidd, Drake and Law. I just do not see Oda picking a particular religion as right when Kuma has a bible and Segoku is a Buddha, this variety of religions makes the world of one piece a well functioning and realistic world.

[Cymelion]

@ Urouge - So kind of like a massive Groundhog Day.

Someone gets to Raftel - fails - cycle starts again next one gets to Raftel fails - cycle begins again - Roger gets to Raftel fails - spreads the word - dies and then Luffy is the latest Cycle. So instead of time repeating it's generations given a chance to while not doing the right thing but the correct thing.
It would make sense since so many things seem to line up with Roger and Luffy - Still would laugh my arse off if Roger had the Rubber DF power XD

[Vanessa]

@Cymelion:

Someone gets to Raftel - fails - cycle starts again next one gets to Raftel fails - cycle begins again - Roger gets to Raftel fails - spreads the word - dies and then Luffy is the latest Cycle. So instead of time repeating it's generations given a chance to while not doing the right thing but the correct thing.

Stole that from Radiant Historia.

[Zack]

I seriously doubt Oda will incorporate any real life religious properties in the manga. I don't remember it ever being stated that anyone ever asked him where One Piece was before saying what he said aside from in the anime. Also, Hiruluck also said he wouldn't die because a man only dies when he's forgotten. I also remember Shanks clearly saying he took a chance on the new generation, and not some plan. If anything, Oda seems to be a big believer in fate which I also think was in one of the interviews with another famous mangaka where he mentions he worked at a job as the same place as him.

[Cymelion]

@Vanessa:

Stole that from Radiant Historia.

Never played it - could only read the wiki and doesn't seem quite like what I was trying to explain

[Hisoga]

@ Urouge, what is the significant of your theory to One Piece story? i mean, first, up until this point in the story, even if we replace reincarnation with destiny/fate in you theory, it will still back to the same conclusion.. somebody still inherited whatever will that Roger and WB mentioned..
or maybe you wanted to create a some sort of connection between Luffy, Roger, Joy Boy, True History and a downfall of world Government but still, fate and destiny still can be use in this kind of situation instead of reincarnation.

[Monkey King]

@Zack:

I seriously doubt Oda will incorporate any real life religious properties in the manga. I don't remember it ever being stated that anyone ever asked him where One Piece was before saying what he said aside from in the anime. Also, Hiruluck also said he wouldn't die because a man only dies when he's forgotten. I also remember Shanks clearly saying he took a chance on the new generation, and not some plan. If anything, Oda seems to be a big believer in fate which I also think was in one of the interviews with another famous mangaka where he mentions he worked at a job as the same place as him.

Takehiko Inoue

Vagabond has totally become autobiographical btw, Musashi is Inoue, and I think Sasaki Kojiro is Oda. Pure and innocent, but devestatingly deep and powerful.

[igetownd]

It's not a stretch for One Piece to have Buddhist concepts like fate and reincarnation, but Buddhism also supports the concept that people are born without souls, and that souls are developed by life experience.

Thus, the whole reincarnation concept contradicts the blank slate concept. And in One Piece, that appears to be so as well.

The fact that Luffy said the exact same thing Roger did is not very strong proof that he is reincarnated from Roger. Luffy simply said that he's gonna form a pirate crew that's better than everyone else and become Pirate King. That's a very general statement, and would probably be said by almost every fearless novice.

Giving Shanks some leeway, Luffy said that even after almost getting killed by bandits and sea monsters. Compared to other kids with strong personality like Ace and Sabo, Luffy's ambition seems infinite. Ace simply wanted respect. Sabo simply wanted freedom. But unlike a spoiled child whose ambition is completely selfish, Luffy is compassionate, and gives away treasure to the needy. It's a rare personality, and perhaps, it's that personality that "Joy Boy" refers to.

Because of the rarity of Luffy's personality, reincarnation seems to be what it is. But what about more common personalities, like Coby's at the beginning of the story? Many people are weak willed and give up on dreams for a life of serving some bastard. With growing populations, reincarnation doesn't work, because the number of people with the same personalities in one generation is more than the previous generation.
As a counter-argument, One Piece is fiction, and population size doesn't matter, so people with non-unique personalities are treated as consensus opinion.

And then there's Blackbeard. He's like Luffy, but different. He's impulsive, optimistic, selfish, ambitious, strong, and simple. The only difference is his lack of sympathy. And yet, he lives a completely different life than Luffy.

There's much more to reincarnation than personality. The life experience one receives is important to the character, and to be a reincarnation, the life must be similar. Luffy's life is largely dissimilar to Roger's because of age. Roger was a mature adult when he started pirating, and became Pirate King only shortly before death. Luffy is a young adult without any mature concepts and understandings, a man-child so to speak. I think the fate that Luffy receives will be entirely different that that of Roger, and his legacy will surpass Rogers.

Perhaps, I'm don't understand reincarnation well enough. Perhaps Roger's soul wants to do more, and do it earlier. But then what's been keeping his soul from doing things earlier, such as when Roger lived, and before then? What has "Joy Boy's" soul been doing the past 800 years? I think it's been waiting for the perfect opportunities. Luffy's crew is not perfectly like Roger's crew. It's full of supremely gifted people that all just happen to meet Luffy in the few months that he journeys. Roger gathered his crew over the years, and only a few are truly exceptional. Luffy's life has been pretty much perfect for his destiny. Obviously, Oda intended it this way.

So is Joy Boy the same as Luffy? Is he the same as Roger? I don't think Roger was the Joy Boy of Poneglyph prophecy, if Luffy is. But Luffy may not be Joy Boy, because Joy Boy was involved with a grave incident that formed the current defunct world.

My monologue ends here because there's too little convincing evidence to confirm reincarnation as an underlying theme of One Piece.

[Czechmate]

I'm digging that theory, Urouge, and I can't help but think that if Joy Boy is the "spirit" passed down through the centuries to Roger and Luffy, and if the apology is written to him, it may have something to do with Rayleigh's comments at Sabaody concerning what the Roger Pirates learned about the Void Century (if memory serves he says something along the lines of "we may have been a bit hasty"? Which implies some unexpected surprises within the Void Century).

[Cymelion]

@igetownd:

There's much more to reincarnation than personality. The life experience one receives is important to the character, and to be a reincarnation, the life must be similar. Luffy's life is largely dissimilar to Roger's because of age. Roger was a mature adult when he started pirating, and became Pirate King only shortly before death. Luffy is a young adult without any mature concepts and understandings, a man-child so to speak. I think the fate that Luffy receives will be entirely different that that of Roger, and his legacy will surpass Rogers.

[MasterKingJC]

I like this theory. It seems you put a lot of thought into it.
skimmed through most of it

If Joy Boy did write the apology on the poneglyph in FI, then it might be an apology for the events taking place in the Void Century or related to the WG.

[Georgette]

@igetownd:

I
The fact that Luffy said the exact same thing Roger did is not very strong proof that he is reincarnated from Roger. Luffy simply said that he's gonna form a pirate crew that's better than everyone else and become Pirate King. That's a very general statement, and would probably be said by almost every fearless novice.

Does not make sense: Roger couldnt said that he was going to be the pirate king because this title didnt exist at this time.

But yay, people who deny the fact that luffy, roger or teach are "reborn" spirit from people who existed during the void century, are in denial. Just like Luffy has the same spirit than Roger, at this point of the story, it's obvious now.

[Don Quichotte De Flamingo]

@Urouge:

Specifically, I tend to think that there are two opposite spirits which have come down the line over the course of 900 years and are now Luffy and Blackbeard. Blackbeard's, specifically, could have to do a lot with why the destruction of the ancient civilization wasn't black and white.

Not a bad idea, but still iam missing then the ancestor which gave his "black soul" to BB.
I mean we saw Roger as the "white soul "part, but we never saw someone who may have passed his\her soul to the next generation(BB) ,who lived in the opposite direction.
I think we should begin to search for that in the WG, but there the gorousei still are all alive,who could be called counterparts to Roger.
I just think that we`re missing in this theory the needed "black soul" counterpart.

But that we have with Brook an example that Oda does work with souls, is at least a good hint into this direction.

And we've seen for ourselves that the WG does try to eradicate their bloodlines despite the fact that some of them are Marines. The fact that some are Marines tells us that they don't try to eradicate the bloodlines simply because they trace back to some ancient civilization, and the fact that most of them seem to be genuinely good people would suggests that there must be another reason for doing it.

Hunting every D. down would also be the action i would ascribe to the WG.
Letting them being part of their own forces is rly suspicious.

I think they first didnt know that D.s could be coming from the ancient kingdom. Or else i cant see why those people let that D. in their name when its like a sign on them showing: "Hey, were from the ancient kingdom".
After the decades the meaning got lost so that neither the WG nor those who are called D. knew what it meaned.
They just seem to be mysterious, because they all have somekind of important faith, but nowadays were D.s are on both sides, the WG isnt hunting them down, because they know that some are even working on their side and so couldnt be just bad for them.(so far)
By that hunting down just those D.s, who were known troublemaker is much more efficient.
(but by now they see that Garp`s offspring just causes trouble which they now curse)

Roger's last words to Rayleigh were that he wouldn't die. But there's no way he could have known that someone would ask him where his treasure was at his execution, and if he's anything like Luffy he wouldn't have thought that far ahead. There must be another reason for him to believe that strongly enough to make such a proclamation.

Here i think the message Roger found with the rioponeglyph was enough to believe in.
The message they finally discovered gave him enough hope, to spread the word(by making millions to search for it) and by that he knew that someday his dream would come true, that the message they found would finally become reality.
But for that he knew it needs another man as himself, and thats why every crewmember of Roger we saw so far were relieved that finally such a man showed up in Luffy.
That they see similarities in those two persons is in my eyes not rly a hint to your theory, because as i said, i think that Luffy has to be somehow differnet to finally make the dream come true..Roger and Luffy having the same "soul" would make it hard for me to picture, why Luffy can make the dream come true and Roger didn`t.(he just started it for Luffy)

The other, which I lean towards, is that Joy Boy is the person the poneglyph is addressed to. If that's the case, it gives the theory a lot of weight. After all why write an apology to someone on unbreakable stone that would survive hundreds or thousands of years unless the person was going to exist a ways into the future?

Thats a good point.
Iam so far leaning towards "joy Boy" being an ancient fishman, the ancient promised a long time ago something they couldnt achieve. This poneglyph isnt just meaned for just one person..it`s more for the whole race, for which Joy Boy is the representative.
But yeah, i think your thoughts are interesting.

[Urouge]

First of all, I need apologize for the length of the original theory. I had planned on editing it and shorting it up, but a thunderstorm forced me to post quickly without much review so Nessa could boo me. :cwy:

I suppose this post is also tl;dr, but only because you guys have given me a lot to respond to.

@Vanessa:

http://img5.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/11679/11679035271cd603273b16ac2579e262695bb0d9.gif

Hahaha. Armor haki. :ninja:

@Monkey:

why the hell would reinacarnations all have the same middle initial

Good question, and one I really don't have a good answer for yet. Maybe it's just that they're all a part of the same race or something, or they have the strength necessary (in genealogy) to house it. But I'm just sort of tossing out the things that immediately come to mind.

@Zack:

I seriously doubt Oda will incorporate any real life religious properties in the manga.

The point is that it doesn't follow any exactly, but sort of takes bits and pieces here and there and twists it all up a bit to become OP's own system. A large number of mangas do this.

Also, Hiruluck also said he wouldn't die because a man only dies when he's forgotten.

This comes down to the different between will and "spirit" (for lack of a better word at this point). I think both'll wind up being important in One Piece, and the will/forgotten portion is what gives us ambiguity which causes us to lean the wrong way in our expectations.

@Hisoga:

@ Urouge, what is the significant of your theory to One Piece story?

It's a tangible and definitive system that the ancient civilization could rely on. Passing on a will is a more fickle thing, and eradication of a bloodline could shatter that in theory. The real meat of the theory comes down to Blackbeard, and what his version was responsible for 900 years ago. I don't know what that would be, but I'm sure it would be important.

@igetownd:

It's not a stretch for One Piece to have Buddhist concepts like fate and reincarnation, but Buddhism also supports the concept that people are born without souls, and that souls are developed by life experience.

This is exactly why I said the Hindu version was much closer to what I was trying to describe. Because Buddhism doesn't believe in a soul getting passed on individually.

The fact that Luffy said the exact same thing Roger did is not very strong proof that he is reincarnated from Roger. Luffy simply said that he's gonna form a pirate crew that's better than everyone else and become Pirate King. That's a very general statement, and would probably be said by almost every fearless novice.

I seriously doubt that's the line Shanks was referring to. I haven't been attempting to prove that Luffy was reincarnated from Roger anyway, rather that's a consequence of the theory. If the theory of reincarnation holds true, Luffy being Roger's reincarnation is obvious.

There's much more to reincarnation than personality. The life experience one receives is important to the character, and to be a reincarnation, the life must be similar. Luffy's life is largely dissimilar to Roger's because of age. Roger was a mature adult when he started pirating, and became Pirate King only shortly before death. Luffy is a young adult without any mature concepts and understandings, a man-child so to speak. I think the fate that Luffy receives will be entirely different that that of Roger, and his legacy will surpass Rogers.

@Brizan:

I just do not see Oda picking a particular religion as right when Kuma has a bible and Segoku is a Buddha, this variety of religions makes the world of one piece a well functioning and realistic world.

If Oda goes with reincarnation, I doubt he'll copy one particular religion's viewpoint of it exactly. He'll make his own. That said, you (igetownd) seem to think reincarnation is a lot more than it is, even in real religious views, though I'm not well versed enough in Hinduism to truly argue that point.

@igetownd:

Perhaps, I'm don't understand reincarnation well enough. Perhaps Roger's soul wants to do more, and do it earlier. But then what's been keeping his soul from doing things earlier, such as when Roger lived, and before then? What has "Joy Boy's" soul been doing the past 800 years? I think it's been waiting for the perfect opportunities. Luffy's crew is not perfectly like Roger's crew. It's full of supremely gifted people that all just happen to meet Luffy in the few months that he journeys. Roger gathered his crew over the years, and only a few are truly exceptional. Luffy's life has been pretty much perfect for his destiny. Obviously, Oda intended it this way.

As I said, it's all about building blocks. Also, Roger was hampered with a life threatening illness that stopped him in the end. Roger managed to shape the world in a way that was ripe for Luffy to define history in his lifetime.

My monologue ends here because there's too little convincing evidence to confirm reincarnation as an underlying theme of One Piece.

I never claimed I could prove it.

@Don:

Not a bad idea, but still iam missing then the ancestor which gave his "black soul" to BB.
I mean we saw Roger as the "white soul "part, but we never saw someone who may have passed his\her soul to the next generation(BB) ,who lived in the opposite direction.

Blackbeard was still alive then. The guy is 40-whatever years old, and was waiting for his time for most of his life. The only flashbacks we have from before Blackbeard are too narrow in scope.

Hunting every D. down would also be the action i would ascribe to the WG.
Letting them being part of their own forces is rly suspicious.

I think they first didnt know that D.s could be coming from the ancient kingdom. Or else i cant see why those people let that D. in their name when its like a sign on them showing: "Hey, were from the ancient kingdom".
After the decades the meaning got lost so that neither the WG nor those who are called D. knew what it meaned.
They just seem to be mysterious, because they all have somekind of important faith, but nowadays were D.s are on both sides, the WG isnt hunting them down, because they know that some are even working on their side and so couldnt be just bad for them.(so far)
By that hunting down just those D.s, who were known troublemaker is much more efficient.
(but by now they see that Garp`s offspring just causes trouble which they now curse)

This is an important question regardless of whether or not my theory is correct. I don't have any good answers for it yet, either way. We did see the Gourosei comment about the importance of "D" though, so they clearly know something about it.

That they see similarities in those two persons is in my eyes not rly a hint to your theory, because as i said, i think that Luffy has to be somehow differnet to finally make the dream come true..Roger and Luffy having the same "soul" would make it hard for me to picture, why Luffy can make the dream come true and Roger didn`t.(he just started it for Luffy)

He doesn't need to be different. The circumstances under which he lives in needs to be different, and they are. Roger made all the progress he could while he was alive, and was hampered by illness which stopped him as much as anything else, in the end. But again, the Luffy/Roger thing is a consequence of a theory more than it is a reason to believe it. All that matters is that it fits, and doesn't contradict the concept.

Iam so far leaning towards "joy Boy" being an ancient fishman, the ancient promised a long time ago something they couldnt achieve. This poneglyph isnt just meaned for just one person..it`s more for the whole race, for which Joy Boy is the representative.
But yeah, i think your thoughts are interesting.

I don't really get what you're trying to say here. Joy Boy doesn't define fishmen very well. They tend towards other aggressive emotions more.

[igetownd]

@Urouge:

I haven't been attempting to prove that Luffy was reincarnated from Roger anyway, rather that's a consequence of the theory. If the theory of reincarnation holds true, Luffy being Roger's reincarnation is obvious.

If Oda goes with reincarnation, I doubt he'll copy one particular religion's viewpoint of it exactly. He'll make his own. That said, you (igetownd) seem to think reincarnation is a lot more than it is, even in real religious views, though I'm not well versed enough in Hinduism to truly argue that point.

As I said, it's all about building blocks. Also, Roger was hampered with a life threatening illness that stopped him in the end. Roger managed to shape the world in a way that was ripe for Luffy to define history in his lifetime.

I never claimed I could prove it.

My post was more of a train of thought, detailing an attempt to solidify a theory, rather than a true rebuttal to your point of view. Because there is a lot to question, and a lot less to answer with, I think "It's a mystery!" or "It just happens" is the best way to view Oda's concept. Any analysis is just recreational enjoyment.

[Don Quichotte De Flamingo]

@Urouge:

I don't really get what you're trying to say here. Joy Boy doesn't define fishmen very well. They tend towards other aggressive emotions more.

In my eyes fishman developed that way(being aggressiv)after being pushed back into the ocean.
Thats why "Joy Boy" could be the equivalant to Otohime for his time, being the fishman who also tried to get harmony between those two races.
He was the one, who brought peace and harmony to his race in creating a friendship to the people of the ancient kingdom.
While the ancestors of the WG battled for the power, the fishman race was pushed back to the ground of the ocean, what the ancient kingdom regretted,because they may have promised "Joy Boy" that they would do anything to keep the harmony between those races,which was the work of this fishman.
Otherwise i wouldnt know why the poneglyph should be at FI, when it wasnt aimed to a fishman afterall.

Blackbeard was still alive then. The guy is 40-whatever years old, and was waiting for his time for most of his life. The only flashbacks we have from before Blackbeard are too narrow in scope.

Mhh okay, that could always be that we just havent seen so far the guy who had before the current timeline "BBs dark soul", but Oda does mention or at least hints us to such important storyblocks rly early,so i still have doubts that we will see such a fitting character.

But on an other note:
Where exactly does this "black soul" come from and what should be his goal?
I mean with the WG the ancient kingdom(and so the "white soul") has already an antagonist.
BB isn`t on the side of the WG..he tries to create his own new world order.
So did you mean that within the ancient kingdom the two opposite souls were created\originated and one tries to restore the ancient kingdom(the "white soul") while the other(the "black soul")wants to create something completely new?

[DemonX]

Interesting discussion! Thanks, Urouge & Co.!

But don´t really believe Oda is going to take it that far…or is he? Would surely be interesting! At the moment, I´ll just go with the "Will of the D." being just that, a really strong spirit those who bear the initial have... How it comes to that....meh, I´ll let myself be surprised :D

[sanji499]

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v56/c551/5.html

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v20/c176/14.html

The way Oda draws this scene is familiar.

[Hisoga]

@Urouge:

It's a tangible and definitive system that the ancient civilization could rely on. Passing on a will is a more fickle thing, and eradication of a bloodline could shatter that in theory. The real meat of the theory comes down to Blackbeard, and what his version was responsible for 900 years ago. I don't know what that would be, but I'm sure it would be important.

if you put that way, it sound interesting because to me i still don't see a true connection between Luffy and his adventure to the Void century, lost history, ancient civilization, the World Government and the future of the world except for Robin. but still if Oda only give us Robin as the only connection for Luffy to have a connection with all this, i'll will be disappointed. i always wonder what kind of history/old secret that can topple the World Government even after 800 years.. it doesn't make sense to me because it just too far old in the past. and also WG is consist of so many country and people with different background and past, so one dark history can never be the course of it downfall.

[Urouge]

@Don:

In my eyes fishman developed that way(being aggressiv)after being pushed back into the ocean.

It's a fundamental difference between fishmen and mermen, so I doubt it. It's also based on how they view the rest of the sea life, rather than humans. Fishmen try to dominate the sea while mermaids try to befriend it (Oda's words).

Thats why "Joy Boy" could be the equivalant to Otohime for his time, being the fishman who also tried to get harmony between those two races.
He was the one, who brought peace and harmony to his race in creating a friendship to the people of the ancient kingdom.
While the ancestors of the WG battled for the power, the fishman race was pushed back to the ground of the ocean, what the ancient kingdom regretted,because they may have promised "Joy Boy" that they would do anything to keep the harmony between those races,which was the work of this fishman.
Otherwise i wouldnt know why the poneglyph should be at FI, when it wasnt aimed to a fishman afterall.

A merman/maid, possibly. A fishman, probably not. But that doesn't explain why it would be written on unbreakable stone to stand the test of time.

Mhh okay, that could always be that we just havent seen so far the guy who had before the current timeline "BBs dark soul", but Oda does mention or at least hints us to such important storyblocks rly early,so i still have doubts that we will see such a fitting character.

Such a fitting character would have had to exist 50 years ago or more, which there aren't many flashbacks for. We only have Norlands (which had no real antagonist), and Brook's (which was far too small scale for it). That timeframe of 50-100 years ago is difficult to reference with most living characters, so the previous one probably wouldn't get much spotlight at all. The one from 900 years ago, should the theory be correct, is the one I'd expect to get the spotlight later on. And we have no flashbacks of that yet, and rightfully so.

But on an other note:
Where exactly does this "black soul" come from and what should be his goal?
I mean with the WG the ancient kingdom(and so the "white soul") has already an antagonist.
BB isn`t on the side of the WG..he tries to create his own new world order.
So did you mean that within the ancient kingdom the two opposite souls were created\originated and one tries to restore the ancient kingdom(the "white soul") while the other(the "black soul")wants to create something completely new?

It's not so much about goals. Luffy and Blackbeard have the same goal, so that's not what separates them. What separates them is how they strive to achieve those goals. The same could have been said 900 years ago, maybe.

@Hisoga:

if you put that way, it sound interesting because to me i still don't see a true connection between Luffy and his adventure to the Void century, lost history, ancient civilization, the World Government and the future of the world except for Robin. but still if Oda only give us Robin as the only connection for Luffy to have a connection with all this, i'll will be disappointed. i always wonder what kind of history/old secret that can topple the World Government even after 800 years.. it doesn't make sense to me because it just too far old in the past. and also WG is consist of so many country and people with different background and past, so one dark history can never be the course of it downfall.

Yeah, we don't have a lot of info to work on yet as far as the void century is concerned. We only know that a civilization fell, the WG came to power, ancient weapons of mass destruction existed which the ancient civilization had access to, and all history of the war was eradicated. I have a feeling that the fact that the ancient civilization seems to be the group that controlled the ancient weapons is important.