Had Tywin seen this he would have shat gold
Game of Thrones (tv show thread)
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I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but out of the two big controversial twists this season (Night King death and Mad Queen Dany), I consider this one the better of the two. Dany going mad had plenty of foreshadowing, it's just that the execution was weak (only 2 or so episodes of real buildup). The Night King getting killed by Arya was just a bad idea in general.
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I read a rummor on why it's ending. It's not star wars or confederated. It has to do with George. I'll dream in silence for a while.
Is it something to do with this?
https://tvweb.com/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-books-6-7-song-of-ice-and-fire/?fbclid=IwAR3sx5YJLLt2xT4kRzEU1-aFiFx5_oDwIuhTveWZJ8RzrUbinjqaKLv1GYg -
To me it's always been clear she use cruelty as a response not a gratuous thing.
I think she could explode. I don't think she would against those people. Jon her challenger, Tyrion that failed her to much, Sansa plotting in her back, part of the city for refusing to accept their rightful queen. All people that she can has an excuse to explode at. Not people that have done nothing and are accepting her."All right, then. Let it be fear".
By that point, Daenerys had lost her claim to the throne to Jon and had lost any hope of being able to hold it through love - the people in Westeros love Jon instead of her, the love Jon had for her was betrayed when he told his sisters about his heritage and on this episode she certified it was already condemned. In her eyes, instilling fear in the people of King's Landing is probably the only way to make sure they will bow to her and not to Jon when his origins are inevitably revealed and he claims his position either by his own will or forced by his followers.
Btw, the user Caprica1 made an extensive list of Daenerys moments that can help this development not seem rushed:
• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”
• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."
• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.
• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”
• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.
• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”
• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”
• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”
• 505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.
• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.
• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”
• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”
• 609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”
• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)
• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”
• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.
• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”
• 705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.
• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”
• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.
• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.
• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”
• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.
• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.
• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)
• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)
• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”
• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”
• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)
• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.
• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”
• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”
• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)
• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)
• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”
And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.
She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7l4u/spoilers_all_of_the_foreshadowing_that_lead_up_to/ -
Hey at least we got cleganebowl.
You know what pisses me off at the end of the day
It's how euron die.
Dude should have died a painful excruciating death instead of being so stupid he actually died somewhat happy.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@.access:
"All right, then. Let it be fear".
By that point, Daenerys had lost her claim to the throne to Jon and had lost any hope of being able to hold it through love - the people in Westeros love Jon instead of her, the love Jon had for her was betrayed when he told his sisters about his heritage and on this episode she certified it was already condemned. In her eyes, instilling fear in the people of King's Landing is probably the only way to make sure they will bow to her and not to Jon when his origins are inevitably revealed and he claims his position either by his own will or forced by his followers.
Btw, the user Caprica1 made an extensive list of Daenerys moments that can help this development not seem rushed:
Yes because that's totally my fault for not interpreting it like that.
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Is it something to do with this?
https://tvweb.com/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-books-6-7-song-of-ice-and-fire/?fbclid=IwAR3sx5YJLLt2xT4kRzEU1-aFiFx5_oDwIuhTveWZJ8RzrUbinjqaKLv1GYgAlready disconfirmed by George himself. Baristan has betrayed us.
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Dude should have died a painful excruciating death instead of being so stupid he actually died somewhat happy.
Literally this except with Cersei.
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I just enjoyed the fact that she was wrong about her forces but right about her methods, and her lies. She could have talked shit at Dany at length for what Dany was doing.
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People are acting as if foreshadowing of Dany the Tyrant == she will torch thousands of innocents with no provocation after the compelte surrender of her enemies and her getting everything she ever wanted. Especially after, time and again, she has resolved to not kill innocent people - "I will not be queen of the ashes", and the ramp-up to this full-on mass murderer moment is so damn short.
Also:
- By this point she has singlehandedly laid waste to a fleet, the entire city battlements, and most of the Golden Company. I don't think she needs to prove anything else in order to "rule by fear"
- "Her Targaryen crazy genes kicked in!" Is a terrible, lazy excuse
- Seriously, she does it with NO PROVOCATION. Theres not even a random peasant disrespecting her. She doesn't even go after Cersei first! Yes she has used Dragons on her enemies before - but not on defenseless, uninvolved civilians
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Also, is it just me or was Cleganebowl pretty damn stupid?
First the Hound travels with Arya, then he is left for dead, then he pops up as a retired farmer, then he defends all of humanity from a zombie horde...and then suddenly he is REVENGE MAN CONSUMED BY REVENGE and goes "well, might as well go kill my brother now because that plotlines still open I guess"...despite this not being a focus for YEARS on the show? People say "GET HYPE" but the thing is, there was no hype. Not in the actual show. It feels like something the writers whipped out to appease the fanbase.
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Also also:
Why do the whole thing with JaimeXBrienne and Jaime learning that Bronn was hired by Cersei to kill him if you're gonna have Jaime IMMEDIATELY run back to Cersei, as if he hadn't really considered the consequences of the war against her?
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She has killed inocents before, the masters that didn't opose her, she doesn't spare a tought at them ever again.
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Theres a pretty huge leap from "some of the slave-owning Masters she collectively executed were revealed to be innocent at a much later date" and "killing thousands of explicitly innocent peasants and razing their city to the ground".
For all the talk of Daenerys bringing dragons to kings landing the point was to use them to win the war, not to torch the place for the sheer hell of it.
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Her current leap of logic is "they aren't trowing the doors open for me and my army, therefore they are siding with cersei".
Also, fat brush justice is no justice, nor here not in kings landing not in the slaver cities. If she wanted to kill all slave owner she should just have done so, not the half measure of killing some of them, but not the ones who explicitelly killed the children, it would have been just, but it would have been fair and lead to stable goverment.
The Masters weren't inocent, but if you are killing them because slavery, you kill them all, if you are killing them for the children cruxifiction, you kill the ones who gave the order, not pick and chose that number at random and call it justice, because she ended up sparing slavers and murderers that way.
The crime of Kings landing population is "not loving your mesiah". Like when the Dotraki, Unsulied and the freedmen who went to their knees when she burned their oppresors.
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All the foreshadowing in the world couldn't make up for the poor handling and the breakneck speed by which all of it occures. I don't mind Dany going insane per se, feels pretty plausible, what i do mind however is how they just flip a genocide button on like it's turning on a lamp. Like welp guess i'll burn the children now. Everything feels halfbaked at best and it can't be salvaged
Did you enjoy the brotherly battle?
Out of the whole lot it was the least bad thing. Not good by any means and still lacking internal logic but still least bad.
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It's all charred on the outside, but raw and gooey in the inside.
And agree, we are missing some steps, but she doesn't burn people while she's happy, or we don't care while they are enemies.
She lost the legitimacy by birthright by the injustices of the succession laws. More oil to the flames.
She was crubbing her instincts (and her superior firepower) trying to be loved, and that costed her 2 dragons, jorah and Missandei, plus a ton of soldiers. If she had done this from the begining, they would be alive (in her mind), the throne would be hers.
The thing that I'm concerned is how easilly people brush off talks about "fate" and "birthright" when they like a character. Those are red flags.
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The best part of the episode was Jaime vs Euron.
A lot of the early battle scenes looked really bad, and I couldn't get the sensation of "actors on a sound stage" out of my head.
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@Daz:
People are acting as if foreshadowing of Dany the Tyrant == she will torch thousands of innocents with no provocation after the compelte surrender of her enemies and her getting everything she ever wanted. Especially after, time and again, she has resolved to not kill innocent people - "I will not be queen of the ashes", and the ramp-up to this full-on mass murderer moment is so damn short.
My impression is that she didn't get what she wanted yet. With the news of Jon's origins, Cersei became a secondary obstacle to Daenerys. Ok, Cersei was defeated at that point, but did that meant Daenerys was allowed to claim the Iron Throne? For how long? The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her (and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).
When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
I mean, just watch the episode before the war. As the hours advanced and the siege draw close, did Daenerys seemed even slightly worried about her confrontation with the forces Cersei amassed? She was all about Jon taking the throne from her and everyone who should already respect/love/fear her confabulating behind her back to make sure he would get there.My take on that. Could be proven wrong in 6 days, though.
@Daz:
Why do the whole thing with JaimeXBrienne and Jaime learning that Bronn was hired by Cersei to kill him if you're gonna have Jaime IMMEDIATELY run back to Cersei, as if he hadn't really considered the consequences of the war against her?
Jaime became my favorite character by Storm of Swords and Brienne rose to the same level in Feast for Crows, obviously I've been shipping them hard since then, so I really enjoyed their development. It was sweet, nice, made me smile from ear to ear, and still didn't end on a happy tone that would feel out of place.
As far as I am concerned, it was a perfect development. Specially because now I can have them never going that way on the books without feeling something was missing.As for the Bronn scene. Yeah, I don't get what was its purpose.
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"All right, then. Let it be fear".
I think I needed Dany to say that before she started burning people. It would have helped a lot. Because I do like the idea of her snapping like that. But when she and Drogon took to the air again, I just thought she was going after the Red Keep and Cersei. I kept thinking that until Drogon blasted fire at people in the streets. No Dracarys, no nothing. Maybe that's on me, but I also think what she was going to do and why could have been made much more transparent . Have her dragon get (almost) hit to instill some fear into her and remind her of her dead children. Have her see Jon being cheered on again. Show her the corpse of Missandei who has been displayed just for her. Injure Grey Worm. Let some (brave and insane) inhabitant of King's Landing spit in her general direction. And then have her say 'Let it be fear.'
Not to mention that Dany has already lost one dragon to an opposing army. Does she really believe she can brute force herself on the North and everybody else who will now 100% unite against her?
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@.access:
My impression is that she didn't get what she wanted yet. With the news of Jon's origins, Cersei became a secondary obstacle to Daenerys. Ok, Cersei was defeated at that point, but did that meant Daenerys was allowed to claim the Iron Throne? For how long? The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her (and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).
When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
I mean, just watch the episode before the war. As the hours advanced and the siege draw close, did Daenerys seemed even slightly worried about her confrontation with the forces Cersei amassed? She was all about Jon taking the throne from her and everyone who should already respect/love/fear her confabulating behind her back to make sure he would get there.she could just ignore jon, he has no proof and no one knows who he is outside of the north, also no one cares about succession this has been established when cercei bacame queen
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she could just ignore jon, he has no proof and no one knows who he is outside of the north, also no one cares about succession this has been established when cercei bacame queen
Didn't Varys write a whole bunch of fuck you notes before his end?
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I wonder what Bronn will be doing in the final episode. I mean they forced a Bronn vs. Jaime & Tyrion plot but then turned it around and now I'm supposed to wait for what?
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Didn't Varys write a whole bunch of fuck you notes before his end?
that still wouldn't do anything because there's still no proof and jon has no support outside of the north ,and again no one in westeros seems to care about succession also even if everyone starts caring about the law jon gave up all his claims when he joined the nights watch (there's no proof that he died and came back to life and that was shaky reasoning for absolving him of his vows to begin with) and even if he somehow gets support and raises an army to overthrow dany she still has superior militarily force (dragon, unsullied , dothraki , iron islands and dorne won't support jon because of succession laws).
jon being a threat doesn't make any sense really.
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Bronn’s real castle is the friendships he made along the way.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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that still wouldn't do anything because there's still no proof and jon has no support outside of the north ,and again no one in westeros seems to care about succession also even if everyone starts caring about the law jon gave up all his claims when he joined the nights watch (there's no proof that he died and came back to life and that was shaky reasoning for absolving him of his vows to begin with) and even if he somehow gets support and raises an army to overthrow dany she still has superior militarily force (dragon, unsullied , dothraki , iron islands and dorne won't support jon because of succession laws).
jon being a threat doesn't make any sense really.
None of the five kings had any proof of Joffrey being a bastard either but here we are.
A foreign queen vs a homegrown good ol'boy is a hard sell for the foreign devil so i can see this derailing
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None of the five kings had any proof of Joffrey being a bastard either but here we are.
A foreign queen vs a homegrown good ol'boy is a hard sell for the foreign devil so i can see this derailing
the five kings only had the region they directly controlled supporting them and i already said that jon has support from the north (wich is very depleted right now) also joffrey is way worse than daenerys before she went crazy.
and she isn't really very foreign either just in exile for a few years. and it wouldn't make sense for the people to care about it to the point that they'll start a war, the person who made the iron throne wasn't westerosi to begin with.
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the five kings only had the region they directly controlled supporting them and i already said that jon has support from the north (wich is very depleted right now) also joffrey is way worse than daenerys before she went crazy.
and she isn't really very foreign either just in exile for a few years. and it wouldn't make sense for the people to care about it to the point that they'll start a war, the person who made the iron throne wasn't westerosi to begin with.
I think you underestimate the inherent racism of westeros society. She is foreign raised woman and heads a foreign horde and Jon is not. If they had to choose the white northerner with a wang wins 10/10 times, and if the local boy has even a smidge of the same claim to the throne then it isn't even a contest in who is the more popular choice. I mean sure she could burn the entire continent and enslave those who oppose her but she is never going to be their chosen one
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I think you underestimate the inherent racism of westeros society. She is foreign raised woman and heads a foreign horde and Jon is not. If they had to choose the white northerner with a wang wins 10/10 times, and if the local boy has even a smidge of the same claim to the throne then it isn't even a contest in who is the more popular choice. I mean sure she could burn the entire continent and enslave those who oppose her but she is never going to be their chosen one
nothing in the series indicates this in fact the smallfolk seem to be down with anyone as long they're left alone just look at cersei she's a woman , fucked her brother , blew up their st. peter's basilica with the pope and half the aristocracy in it and no one seems to care.
but this is actually a good idea having her win the throne but becoming increasingly violent because she's not accepted by the people she's supposedly trying to help for reasons outside her control is far better than "lol i'm crazy now" and it could get us back to the politics that made the show good in the first place but that requires actually exploring the culture and characterizing the peasants and smaller lords but i guess that's too hard.
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While Joffrey's (and Robb's/Renly's/Stanis's/Mance's/Balon's) wars had widespread destruction, those were sparced out, Daenerys and Cersei paid up front a ton of blood (and considering how little focus the populace got while Cersei was queen, we don't even know how the populace was being treated)
The whole wars was an almost comical set of scalations set in motion by little finger, who had his hands on a ton of crucial moments without anyone but the audience knowing (murdering Jon Aryn, setting Cat vs Tyrion, giving clues to Ned, betraying Ned when he didn't sweeten the deal to capture Cersei, getting the Bulk of Renly's forces to side with Joff and organize Margerie's marriage, offing Joffrey, taking Sansa away for Tyrion to take the full blame)
There are a few others that we still don't know if he did them like sending the catspaw to kill Bran (confirmed by the show only), setting that one Kingsguard to kill Tyrion during the blackwater (heavily implied, as he was recomended to the kingsguard by Jon Aryn), and influencing Joff to kill Ned (as the original plan was just to make Ned be guilty of the coup, and take the black)
Compared to him Varys's schemes seem quaint.
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All the foreshadowing in the world couldn't make up for the poor handling and the breakneck speed by which all of it occures.
gets even worse considering there's only one chapter left
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@.access:
My impression is that she didn't get what she wanted yet. With the news of Jon's origins, Cersei became a secondary obstacle to Daenerys. Ok, Cersei was defeated at that point, but did that meant Daenerys was allowed to claim the Iron Throne? For how long? The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her (and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).
When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
I mean, just watch the episode before the war. As the hours advanced and the siege draw close, did Daenerys seemed even slightly worried about her confrontation with the forces Cersei amassed? She was all about Jon taking the throne from her and everyone who should already respect/love/fear her confabulating behind her back to make sure he would get there.
.Burn Jon. And the golden company. There are so many other burning options. Even Burning the north would make quite a bit more sense. Burning the city after surrender makes her her dad and she's too afraid to be that to do it if not necessary.
And if that was the plan she would have burn them when they were enemies of the queen not when they were just a bunch of harmeless civilians accepting her rule and begging to be saved.
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Burn Jon.
I wouldn't be surprised if she enters the last episode at least entertaining that possibility. Obviously she couldn't kill him there on the spot, Drogon is not a sniper, the Unsullied and Dothraki would burn along with him leaving her with… well, nothing.
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nothing in the series indicates this in fact the smallfolk seem to be down with anyone as long they're left alone just look at cersei she's a woman , fucked her brother , blew up their st. peter's basilica with the pope and half the aristocracy in it and no one seems to care.
but this is actually a good idea having her win the throne but becoming increasingly violent because she's not accepted by the people she's supposedly trying to help for reasons outside her control is far better than "lol i'm crazy now" and it could get us back to the politics that made the show good in the first place but that requires actually exploring the culture and characterizing the peasants and smaller lords but i guess that's too hard.
Personally i think there's plenty of moments that drive home how xenophobic and hostile to outsiders the seven kingdoms region is. Wildings are being treated as essentially subhuman, dothraki are deemed savage uncivilized horse people, Dornish are constanly mocked, crannogmen are also deemed to be disgusting swamp people. Hell even betwenn the north and south there is what amounts to hostilities based on not liking outsiders. And here comes Dany and expects true pure blooded lords and retainers to take orders from horse lords and dickless mercenaries from across the sea? Even without the conveniently placed northerner who happens to also be a targaryen but with a dick and an appropriate culture it'd be a hard sell to some place as insular as Westeros
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Her current leap of logic is "they aren't trowing the doors open for me and my army, therefore they are siding with cersei".
…The crime of Kings landing population is "not loving your mesiah". Like when the Dotraki, Unsulied and the freedmen who went to their knees when she burned their oppresors.
But theres a crucial thing missing for that angle to work: Theres zero interaction between Daenerys and the civilians, prior to her murdering them all. She whines beforehand about how no one (in the north, where Jon Snow is a local boy and Arya saved the day) respects her, but she still follows the non civilian-killing plan to a T initially, going after the fleet, the gates, and the battlements, wins extremely decisively…
She then stares for a bit. And decides "You know what, I'm gonna kill some peasants".Theres NO MOMENT where the citizenry disrespect her. No one throws a rotten apple, no one calls her Danny Doo-doo pants, no one refuses to kneel, because she doesn't even ask them to kneel. Theres zero interaction between her and the civilians apart from her murdering all of them, not even so much as someone giving her side-eye to trigger her rampage.
She follows the plan, targeting military forces only. Obtains an unconditional surrender.
Beat.
She kills everyone anyway. -
Yeah, that's the thing with crazy characters, I can argue that in her mind they already had disrespected her, then you can argue that there is nothing in the text supporting that and it's lazy writing, in the end Id agree with the lazy part, but hope that George's version will make sense, as the escalation of BBQs was there.
Buildup was there, we were missing like 2 steps.
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@.access:
The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her
Thats circular logic though. Everyones beef is not that Daenerys went overboard, its that Daenerys targeting civilians rather than Cersei was forced and unnatural; you can't use the show itself as a counter for that. "Daenerys was obviously more interested in killing civilians, because the episode had her kill civilians, so it checks out".
@.access:(and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).
Instead we get a sympathetic death for Cersei Lannister of all things, who dodged any real depiction of what sort of ruler she was, and escaped all consequence for the bombing of the sept. The show was too dead set on wedging Daenerys into the Mad Queen hashtag at the last minute. @.access:
When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
So she decides to become the most hated person in the nation as a counter to Jons popularity? She already singlehandedly won the entire war with a flying nightmare monster, leaving countless charred corpses to fill the streets of Kings Landing - what does she gain by targeting innocent civilians on top of that? Who don't even know why they're being killed? What does she prove apart from being completely unstable?
@.access:
Jaime became my favorite character by Storm of Swords and Brienne rose to the same level in Feast for Crows, obviously I've been shipping them hard since then, so I really enjoyed their development. It was sweet, nice, made me smile from ear to ear, and still didn't end on a happy tone that would feel out of place.
As far as I am concerned, it was a perfect development. Specially because now I can have them never going that way on the books without feeling something was missing.But if you really liked it, and shipped Jaime and Brienne…doesn't it bother you that it ultimately might not even have happened? That Jaime, one episode after bedding Brienne, dies in a tender embrace with Cersei sying that theres nothing beyond them?
Honestly, and this is not a dig at you personally for enjoying it, thats what JaimeXBrienne felt like in retrospect: A blatant bit of fanservice, completely at odds with the broader storytelling. Much like Cleganebowl.
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Personally i think there's plenty of moments that drive home how xenophobic and hostile to outsiders the seven kingdoms region is. Wildings are being treated as essentially subhuman, dothraki are deemed savage uncivilized horse people, Dornish are constanly mocked, crannogmen are also deemed to be disgusting swamp people. Hell even betwenn the north and south there is what amounts to hostilities based on not liking outsiders. And here comes Dany and expects true pure blooded lords and retainers to take orders from horse lords and dickless mercenaries from across the sea? Even without the conveniently placed northerner who happens to also be a targaryen but with a dick and an appropriate culture it'd be a hard sell to some place as insular as Westeros
well she already has pretty much all the county supporting her except for the parts controlled by cersei so it's not much of a problem.
aegon the conqueror did pretty well too and he is way more foreign than her in a time where the seven kingdoms were even more insular. -
@.access:
I wouldn't be surprised if she enters the last episode at least entertaining that possibility. Obviously she couldn't kill him there on the spot, Drogon is not a sniper, the Unsullied and Dothraki would burn along with him leaving her with… well, nothing.
And she would have done that before becoming the mad queen. She knows that's the kind of BS that made everyone band against her father. Killing a lord is classic king securing their rule. Torching a city that surrendered is just telling people she's crazy( and also goes against her messiah need to save the empoverish).
Danny may have frustrations but up until now she was not just straight up crazy. She had proven capable of reason until suddenly she wasn't. And that Cersei was not her first target provs to me how manifactured the moment was.
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What also kills me is that no one in Kings Landing know why they are being murdered. Usually cllective punishement means that people are aware of what cimre they're being punished for, but nope, the new Monarch is just quirky like that!
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
From the goddamn mouthes of D&D themselves
“I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did,” Weiss says about the instant when Dany cracks. “It’s in that moment … when she’s looking at the symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
WOMEN BE CRAZY
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Wow a new low on how Dumber & Dumber interpret a woman character.
Hope Disney takes the intelligent idea and sacks them up front of their SW project.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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@Daz:
Thats circular logic though. Everyones beef is not that Daenerys went overboard, its that Daenerys targeting civilians rather than Cersei was forced and unnatural; you can't use the show itself as a counter for that. "Daenerys was obviously more interested in killing civilians, because the episode had her kill civilians, so it checks out".
Instead we get a sympathetic death for Cersei Lannister of all things, who dodged any real depiction of what sort of ruler she was, and escaped all consequence for the bombing of the sept. The show was too dead set on wedging Daenerys into the Mad Queen hashtag at the last minute.So she decides to become the most hated person in the nation as a counter to Jons popularity? She already singlehandedly won the entire war with a flying nightmare monster, leaving countless charred corpses to fill the streets of Kings Landing - what does she gain by targeting innocent civilians on top of that? Who don't even know why they're being killed? What does she prove apart from being completely unstable?
I don't think it is a circular logic because there is a difference between she attacking the citizens and she ignoring Cersei, I think those are two different points that complement each other, not the same. People were complaining she attacked civilains without being provoked, I said the point was not answering to provocation or punishing them for their behavior and the fact she also ignored Cersei reinforces at that moment she was not really passing down well-deserved punishments.
But overall I think you people are missing the most crucial point here: she is mad. You people are like "she should act reasonably or people will notice she is crazy and be against her"… well, like maxterdexter said, that's the thing with crazy people. She is not in a position she can judge things cool headed and take proportional, justifiable, fair action. She may be following a line of thought, but everything is blurred by fear, anger, sorrow and a pinch of paranoia (which is not entirely wrong as the episode heavily suggests Varys was trying to poison her).
@Daz:
Honestly, and this is not a dig at you personally for enjoying it, thats what JaimeXBrienne felt like in retrospect: A blatant bit of fanservice, completely at odds with the broader storytelling. Much like Cleganebowl.
I know, that's why I was happy it happened in the series. I got the fanservice I wanted while still possibly avoiding a fanservicey outcome on the books (also they parting ways so he can go back to Cersei adds the tragical twist I require in anything so I can enjoy it). Party!
(EDIT: But to be honest, the whole thing also works for Jaime as a character.
His brief affair with Brienne would be the conclusion of the character he was growing to be, the man he should have been, redeemed from all the shit he did and finally allowed to rest. Him leaving her was the call back to reality, he can't delude himself thinking he is a good guy - even if Bran denied him, even if the death through war denied him, he never forgave himself and shouldn't be allowed to go unpunished. Going back to Cersei after Sansa announce her imminent death is him ultimately refusing himself the right to die as a new Jaime. Sure he wanted to be there for her, either to save her or to not let her die alone, but that was also the punishment he found for himself, the end he trully deserved.
We still need to see how that will work for Brienne, but for him I think it was a great way to close the character.) -
well she already has pretty much all the county supporting her except for the parts controlled by cersei so it's not much of a problem.
aegon the conqueror did pretty well too and he is way more foreign than her in a time where the seven kingdoms were even more insular.Well support is a fleeting thing. And Jon's shadow lies heavy over her throne. If you leave out military force she loses badly in all other aspects. In order of increasing importance she has a lesser claim, the drawback of being an outsider and not having a penis. And seeing how she decided to go with the fear route i'd assume that she also realizes that the deck is stacked against her and the only means she has at hand is military might. But yeah this could've been a much fuller story being played out if they had given it some time to ferment and bubble a bit rather than the rushed mishmash of random face-turns we got
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Also, going back to the crypts a little.
Where do you put the civilian population? Outside the walls were the elements or zombie horde could reach them?
In the courtyard? the library? the dining hall? the godswood? The watchtowers?The crypts were the one place where outside zombies didn't manage to swarm. And honestly, those skeletons shouldn't be able to punch the rocks there.
Cast a net too wide and you can't pick the nits that matter.
Like I can see Jaime and Cersei ending like this, but with a very different conversation. Not Jaime going from "I'll sacrifice my honor, and probably my life to save kings landing" to this.
I can't see Sandor ending like this, dying in a battle to kill something that was already dead, both metaforically and in escape routes.
Varys? Maybe in a desperate move, not getting "outplayed" by Tyrion's stupidity, but doing something obviously stupid because is the one thing that might work.
Oh well, this will go dormant soon, and then we'll wait for George.
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The crypts were the one place where outside zombies didn't manage to swarm. And honestly, those skeletons shouldn't be able to punch the rocks there.
Considering how paranoid Jon is about the dead I think he would have clean out the crypt first. It's basically a cemetary. You can't exactly forget there's dead people there.
It's ridiculous but mostly I just find it strange to make crypt zombies and not kill anyone there. I don't think it's a big complaint tho. Mostly people complain darkness, lack of death, NK death.
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So i guess Bronn ain't gonna show up anymore huh? Going out on a parody scene threatening people with an oversized crossbow is not the end i had envisioned when he first came around. Dude was clearly cursed by his own popularity and put in waaay too much to the point of oversaturation
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So i guess Bronn ain't gonna show up anymore huh? Going out on a parody scene threatening people with an oversized crossbow is not the end i had envisioned when he first came around. Dude was clearly cursed by his own popularity and put in waaay too much to the point of oversaturation
I bet you he gets a big reward in the epilogue of the show. After Danny is dead and the kingdom is stable .
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The Lannister brothers should have had him killed in Winterfell. He's way too volatile and had no insurances whatsoever. Unless he used his incredible stealth skills to leave the city the way he entered.
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So i guess Bronn ain't gonna show up anymore huh? Going out on a parody scene threatening people with an oversized crossbow is not the end i had envisioned when he first came around. Dude was clearly cursed by his own popularity and put in waaay too much to the point of oversaturation
Why would you think that? Tyrion killed Tywin with a crossbow. And like they did with Ramsay, Tyrion will die through his own whatever/tempted fate.
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Why would you think that? Tyrion killed Tywin with a crossbow. And like they did with Ramsay, Tyrion will die through his own whatever/tempted fate.
What purpose would something like that serve?
Like i just want to hear your scenario reasoning
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I could ask you the same question about your deduction that the Bronn scene was his last.