Moria's fate

toiim

I've heard people opinions on this, but I'm more interested in quantity for now.

So Moria, dead or alive?

Sea

Moria is as alive as the snake that was about to eat Calgara's daughter.
With body cut into pieces.

Cream-of-Chicken

Dead.
I don't think there's a good enough reason to keep him alive.
And I hardly think he could get away from Doflamingo if Doflamingo really wanted to kill him.

toiim

@Cream-of-Chicken:

Dead.
I don't think there's a good enough reason to keep him alive.
And I hardly think he could get away from Doflamingo if Doflamingo really wanted to kill him.

Although people say 'no one dies in OP'

Oda would be neglecting his duty as a storyteller to keep him alive after what Doflamingo said.

maxterdexter

Master Moria will live for ever!

In our hearts T_T

Rogues' Gallery

We really don't know. We know that Doflamingo was ordered to kill Moria, making it seem like he died in the war. Moria himself was last seen coughing up blood on the ground, surrounded by Kuma Robots and at Doflamingo's mercy.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/581/17/

With the latest chapter, Mihawk reads a newspaper article stating that Moria died in the war. However, Mihawk knows that Moria was still alive when he left the battlefield after the War ended. So, Mihawk doubts the credability of the article and wonders why they would lie about that Moria's fate.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/580/09/

http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/91854766/4

Mihawk does not know about Doflamingo's actions and the Kuma robots, since that happened after he left, so he actually knows less then we readers do, and we're really nowhere in terms of a positive dead or alive. It's all theories, opinions, and speculations until we get further evidence from future chapters.

Envy

I'd say he is dead. I guess there isn't too much to back that up, but it's just a hunch I have, I guess.

Cream-of-Chicken

Although people say 'no one dies in OP'

Oda would be neglecting his duty as a storyteller to keep him alive after what Doflamingo said.

My sister said the same thing, and then Ace died.

He would be. Plus they put it in the paper. If the WG doesn't need him, there's a good chance they would go pretty far out of their way to get rid of him.
It's possible Dofla put him on the black market, but I doubt it. He's not that stupid.
In my opinion, they're clearing out the Shichibukai in order to make room for something much bigger (and they're paranoid, after the war) so they started with Moria.

toiim

@MR.333

But based in what we know, which 'side' has more evidence supporting it.

iPenguin

Should have made the poll public.

Anyways, dead for the reason JERK DISEASE posted in the chapter thread. I interpreted the dialog the same way as him and that is Mihawk is simply suspicious since he last saw Moria alive so he knows Moria's death wasn't on the battlefield (but something must have happened otherwise).

I don't think the government would claim someone was dead so confidently if they weren't sure.

NANLIT

I think he's dead. Sure the newspaper lied about what caused his death but I doubt they would say he's dead if he's not. If he escaped, then they would make something up to show the world that he's no longer on the government's side. So I say he's dead.

SGRaaize

DoFlamingo obviously killed Moria, why wouldn't he?
There is no real reason why you would think that Moria is alive, and the way Oda wrote it, its pretty obvious

Bellamy also probably died, but no one is discussing that Bellamy is alive, its just that Moria is beloved and its hard to accept his death

What do you guys expect? This?:

-Hum, it will be nice to say that you died in… the war...
(Moria angry but defenseless)
[End of the chapter]
-Okay, now that I said that, you're gonna be my buddy
-Sure

Cream-of-Chicken

@Mr.333:

We really don't know. We know that Doflamingo was ordered to kill Moria, making it seem like he died in the war. Moria himself was last seen coughing up blood on the ground, surrounded by Kuma Robots and at Doflamingo's mercy.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/581/17/

With the latest chapter, Mihawk reads a newspaper article stating that Moria died in the war. However, Mihawk knows that Moria was still alive when he left the battlefield after the War ended. So, Mihawk doubts the credability of the article and wonders why they would lie about that Moria's fate.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/580/09/

http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/91854766/4

Mihawk does not know about Doflamingo's actions and the Kuma robots, since that happened after he left, so he actually knows less then we readers do, and we're really nowhere in terms of a positive dead or alive. It's all theories, opinions, and speculations until we get further evidence from future chapters.

They probably put in the paper that he died in they war because they didn't want the public to know a Shichibukai–weather on their orders or not--killed another Shichibukai.
I can't imagine that would go over too well with the public. The war is a perfect way to hush it all up.

SGRaaize

BTW, its obvious that the Gorousei are the responsible for Moria's death

choperman

alive simply because I don't think oda wants to keep killing off characters, doflamingo will cut him a deal for help in making the new world in his image

Sea

Doflamingo lied to the WG about Moria's death? Seems unlikely. The WG must have seen Moria's sexy corpse to claim in the newspaper that he is dead, especially after all that happened with the Kuma issues. Doflamingo is fucking crazy about the new age, and to him, weaklings don't deserve to live in this age. He needs nothing from weaklings, and he has no mercy, and he isn't the type that would be bribed, and also not the type that would borrow power from the weakling he look down upon. He need nothing from Moria. He is all about era. There is no reason someone like him would trick the WG and help Moria. And there is even less reason someone of his caliber would let a injured weakling like Moria escape, not to mention the dandy Kumabots around him.

Zik

Alive since I don't think Oda's is gonna regress back to killing off a shichibukai in this manner but maybe I'm in denial in how he goes about killing characters whose role he might think are done and has no plans of making them return, shichibukai or not.

Cream-of-Chicken

@SGRaaize:

BTW, its obvious that the Gorousei are the responsible for Moria's death

They could have said otherwise in the paper.
They could have put in that Doflamingo or another Shichibukai killed him for an unknown reason and said nothing about ordering him to do so. They don't have much of a reason to mention Dofla, though…I think they want to use him up before they get rid of him. Unless, of course, Doflamingo leaves them first.

Rogues' Gallery

@Sea:

Doflamingo lied to the WG about Moria's death? Seems unlikely. The WG must have seen Moria's sexy corpse to claim in the newspaper that he is dead, especially after all that happened with the Kuma issues. Doflamingo is fucking crazy about the new age, and to him, weaklings don't deserve to live in this age. He needs nothing from weaklings, and he has no mercy, and he isn't the type that would be bribed, and also not the type that would borrow power from the weakling he look down upon. He need nothing from Moria. He is all about era. There is no reason someone like him would trick the WG and help Moria. And there is even less reason someone of his caliber would let a injured weakling like Moria escape, not to mention the dandy Kumabots around him.

Excellent post. I kinda think that Doflamingo is like the Joker, you never really know what he's thinking/planning.

@toiim:

@MR.333

But based in what we know, which 'side' has more evidence supporting it.

It's all up to wherever Oda takes it. I'm not defending the fact that he could be alive because he's my favorite character or something, it's just that Doflamingo is a very fickle person. during the war, Doflamingo recommended letting Luffy and Ace go, just because it would be more entertaining and fun if they got away. Sengoku even knows that Doflamingo is not one to really take orders and hardly shows up for meetings. He may have let Moria crwal away like a dog with his tail between his legs for amusement. Also, like someone during the Chapter Discussion said, it's very unlike Oda to kill of a Major Ex-Villain offscreen. That would be more like Kubo. Who really knows.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/572/10-11/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/234/06/

What I really am trying to say is that it doesn't really matter wich "side" has more evidence to it, it's all still speculation, and will remain speculation until we learn otherwise from Oda. If you really want to know, write him an SBS about it.

NANLIT

@Sea:

Doflamingo lied to the WG about Moria's death? Seems unlikely. The WG must have seen Moria's sexy corpse to claim in the newspaper that he is dead, especially after all that happened with the Kuma issues. Doflamingo is crazy about the new age, and to him, weaklings don't deserve to live in this age. He needs nothing from weaklings, and he has no mercy, and he isn't the type that would be bribed, and also not the type that would borrow power from the weakling he look down upon. He need nothing from Moria. There is no reason someone like him would trick the WG and let Moria live. And there is even less reason someone of his caliber would let a injured weakling like Moria escape, not to mention the dandy Kumabots around him.

Yeah you're right. To let Moria go would be against his ideals.
@Stephen's:

Doflamingo: HAH HAH HAH!! IT'S COMING!!
HURRY!! MAKE YOUR PREPARATIONS!!!
GET READY FOR A WORLD IN WHICH ONLY THE REAL PIRATES WILL SURVIVE!!!
WEAK AND HELPLESS, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!
THE UNCONTROLLABLE WAVES WILL BRING
A "NEW ERA" OF GREAT MEN AND HEROES!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
http://www.mangascreener.com/stephen/onepiece/chapter303.txt

Sea

@Mr.333:

during the war, Doflamingo recommended letting Luffy and Ace go, just because it would be more entertaining and fun if they got away.

I have not yet remembered which chapter he said that though. Anyway, he saw massive potential in Luffy and Ace, who were still in their rather young age yet have achieved incredible feats, as he commented when he first saw Luffy. They are those who would make the new age what he has always dreamed of. Chaos. Wrecks. Storms. Moria, in the other hand, is just an old weak dude- in Doflamingo's mind-whose age was already over (the oldest shichibukai, for further detail, possibly the weakest), as I stated in my previous post in this very same thread. He didn't let Bellamy live and "crawl away like a dog with his tail between his legs for amusement", why would he let Moria-who had passed his golden day and got his ass kicked all the time he showed up and totally depended on his subordinates?

The point of Moria's death is a contribution to a fresh new age. A brick for the foundation of a going-to-come monstrous and turbulent era in which only the strong survive. That is the amusement Doflamingo seeks, not petty mundane entertainment like human dogs which the Tenryubito prefer.

Wagomu

Moria is dead. Long live Moria.

toiim

@Wagomu:

Moria is dead. Long live Moria.

Not sure if that makes sense… :wassat:

EDIT:

wait don't worry…

Sea

@toiim:

Not sure if that makes sense… :wassat:

That makes perfect sense.
Long live our communist party.

NANLIT

@Sea:

I don't remember which chapter he said that. Anyway, he saw massive potential in Luffy and Ace, who were still in their rather young age yet have achieved incredible feats. They are those who would make the new age what he has always dreamed of. Moria is just an old weak dude- in Doflamingo's mind-whose age is already over (the oldest shichibukai, for further detail, possibly the weakest), as I stated in my previous post in this very same thread. He didn't let Bellamy live and "crawl away like a dog with his tail between his legs for amusement", why would he let Moria?
The point of Moria's death is a preparation for a fresh new age. And monstrous and turbulent era. That is the amusement Doflamingo seeks, not petty mundane entertainment like human dogs which the Tenryubito prefer.

Chapter 572.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/572/10-11/

Cream-of-Chicken

@Sea:

I don't remember which chapter he said that. Anyway, he saw massive potential in Luffy and Ace, who were still in their rather young age yet have achieved incredible feats. They are those who would make the new age what he has always dreamed of. Moria is just an old weak dude- in Doflamingo's mind-whose age is already over (the oldest shichibukai, for further detail, possibly the weakest), as I stated in my previous post in this very same thread. He didn't let Bellamy live and "crawl away like a dog with his tail between his legs for amusement", why would he let Moria?
The point of Moria's death is a preparation for a fresh new age. And monstrous and turbulent era. That is the amusement Doflamingo seeks, not petty mundane entertainment like human dogs which the Tenryubito prefer.

So if Luffy survived the war and Ace died, does that mean Doflamingo sees Luffy as being stronger than Ace?
And that's very interesting insight into Doflamingo's character…he's made sure to get rid of those he sees as weak by setting up his black market and putting them on it. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd turn on the Tenryuubito if they get in his way...he's smart, but kind of crazy. I wonder what kind of villain he'll turn out to be, or if he'll be one at all.

Gokudera

Would there be any point in letting Moria live? He would still be useless and weak.

Renegadesoul

Dead !

Sea

@Cream-of-Chicken:

So if Luffy survived the war and Ace died, does that mean Doflamingo sees Luffy as being stronger than Ace?

Doflamingo is not retarded though. Luffy has got a lucky ass to luckily survived which was also why Roger lived long enough to become Pirate King. Luck is also one of the potential Doflamingo saw in Luffy, I guess, like kings in the past who wouldn't have made their successes without the help of fate. Having been helped by a lot of people around him, Luffy sure exposed the potential of outrageous future leader to Don's eyes.

Cream-of-Chicken

@Sea:

Doflamingo is not retarded though. Luffy has got a lucky ass to luckily survived which was also why Roger lived long enough to become Pirate King. Luck is also one of the potential Doflamingo saw in Luffy, I guess, like kings in the past who wouldn't have made their successes without the help of fate.

But Ace has a heart. He jumped in to save Luffy; maybe Doflamingo saw this as a weakness. And maybe luck gives Luffy the upper hand on Ace–Luffy was luck enough to have someone next to him who leapt in front of Akainu without a second though, lucky to not have been separated from Ace in the mad rush to get out of Marineford.
My conclusion: Luffy is luckier than Ace, so maybe it was fate that Ace died. At that point, Doflamingo could have seen more potential in Luffy, and could have seen right there that Ace was not strong enough and did not have the necessary attributes to be Pirate King. Luffy may not be "stronger" than Ace, but there was something that gave him a better chance.
I'm getting off topic.

JERK DISEASE

I'm like 80% sure Moria is dead.
Only way he lives is Donflamingo lying.

Sea

@JERK:

I'm like 80% sure Moria is dead.

This.

Only way he lives is Donflamingo lying.

Which I has explained why it is unlikely.

mickgreen58

Moria is as dead as Jimmy Hoffa.

Sorry Moria fans .

Can you imagine the PR nightmare the World Government and the 5 Elder Stars would face if Moria was found to be alive after the World Government announced that he died?

Also, I think it is too early in the story for the 5 Elder Stars to not be able to accomplish a task, which was to kill Moria.

Bucephalus

@Gokudera:

Would there be any point in letting Moria live? He would still be useless and weak.

Crocodile was brought back, wasn't he? After Baroque Works he served absolutely no purpose. He was weaker than Luffy and he was locked up in Impel Down.

But now he's back and kicking with a new mystery storyline to boot.

Hiroy

Moria is dead. Like Don Krieg, Gin and Bellamy.

goty

This post is deleted!

Cream-of-Chicken

@Bucephalus:

Crocodile was brought back, wasn't he? After Baroque Works he served absolutely no purpose. He was weaker than Luffy and he was locked up in Impel Down.

But now he's back and kicking with a new mystery storyline to boot.

But Luffy fought Crocodile, and Luffy never kills anyone. It was mentioned back in Alabasta that Crocodile was being taken to Impel Down, and going there was unavoidable in the current story.
I would put nothing past Doflamingo, though. It was implied that Doflamingo was going to kill him and it was reported in the paper.

goty

Moria lives….in ~~BekaDidAct's~~ our hearts.

Raffy

Kill Ace and WB but not Moria? Nope! This is Oda's "Age of Death" and Moria has just become a new member of the dearly departed

JERK DISEASE

@mickgreen58:

Also, I think it is too early in the story for the 5 Elder Stars to not be able to accomplish a task, which was to kill Moria.

This is a really good point.

Is Moria so important that Oda is going to weigh him as more important then the dread authoritive command of the Gorusei?

StarlightMan

@Raffy:

Kill Ace and WB but not Moria? Nope! This is Oda's "Age of Death" and Moria has just become a new member of the dearly departed

Not exactly an effective comparison - both those characters' deaths dramatically impacted upon the One Piece world and Luffy's character. What would Moria's death change?

Bucephalus

Moria's fate: the next Nakama thread in disguise

I can already see months, possibly years of retarded discussion
I mean, it's starting out okay now, but we just need to load in a few more people who think he's dead simply because "MORIA DEAD CUZ HE DUMB LOL!!!! MORIA STUPID AND BAD CHARACTER = HE DEAD WHAT MORE PROOF NEEDED?!!?"

Tragic_johnson

personally the only reason I think hes alive, is because the whole issue is being dealt ambiguosily. If he were dead, I think we would know or it would of been shown. Theres no reason to kill him off, if you write a cliffhanger like Oda did for chapter 581, or having Mihawk being be so unsure of it. I think theres a reason for this, but we probably won't know for sure for awhile. I also think theres another possibility why its such a vague issue, that the government made him into a pacfista.

JERK DISEASE

Another thing.

Donflamingo could spare him for some sneaky reason, sure.

One problem.

The little altercation was surrounded by Pacifistas. How exactly could Donflamingo do anything against his orders when watched by impartial ironlly loyal cyborgs? Even if he let Moria run the Pacifistas would take him out.

@Tragic:

Theres no reason to kill him off, if you write a cliffhanger like Oda did for chapter 581,

that cliffhanger had nothing to do with Mori'as fate. I don't even think it was a cliffhanger. Just a cut away from the violence. Tell me what is hinted at that makes for the dramatic moment that ends the chapter.

Also there's more reason to kill him then to let him live.

or having Mihawk being be so unsure of it.

MIHAWK IS NOT UNSURE OF MORIA BEING DEAD
HE"S JUST SUSPICIOUS OF THE STORY IN THE PAPER BEING ACCURATE, IN THE SENSE OF HOW MORIA DIED

HES SUSPECTING WHAT HAPPENED, FOUL PLAY

Cream-of-Chicken

@StarlightMan:

Not exactly an effective comparison - both those characters' deaths dramatically impacted upon the One Piece world and Luffy's character. What would Moria's death change?

Nothing, because he's weak and has no means to impact the world (an Luffy doesn't care for him, but still). Therefor, Doflamingo would want him out of the way to make room for his "New Age."
Also, the war seems more violent than and the pirates more strong if the papers say a Shichibukai died during it.

goty

Mihawk being unsure is necessary to show that he's unaware of the Government's internal affairs, nothing else.

Bucephalus

We know absolutely nothing about the Pacifistas and how they work.

And based on the little we know of Vegapunk, there may be a chance he's working with the Revolutionaries in some way, unless Kuma's full robotification was just an act of trust. And even so, Vegapunk has proven himself to be a generous guy.

If, as I said before, he actually does have relations to the Revolutionaries, letting the Marines' target get away only to show up later would be a blemish upon their authority.

Though we know nothing of Vegapunk, so I don't think anyone has the right to talk.

Zach Logan

This thread has more credence than the version we had for Sabo, yet we have no definitive answer for this one. All signs point to dead but we have no proof in either direction. Either way, this would be one of the first times a major villain is killed in the main storyline, though offscreen.

SGRaaize

@JERK:

Another thing.

Donflamingo could spare him for some sneaky reason, sure.

One problem.

The little altercation was surrounded by Pacifistas. How exactly could Donflamingo do anything against his orders when watched by impartial ironlly loyal cyborgs? Even if he let Moria run the Pacifistas would take him out.

that cliffhanger had nothing to do with Mori'as fate. I don't even think it was a cliffhanger. Just a cut away from the violence. Tell me what is hinted at that makes for the dramatic moment that ends the chapter.

Also there's more reason to kill him then to let him live.

MIHAWK IS NOT UNSURE OF MORIA BEING DEAD
HE"S JUST SUSPICIOUS OF THE STORY IN THE PAPER BEING ACCURATE, IN THE SENSE OF HOW MORIA DIED

HES SUSPECTING WHAT HAPPENED, FOUL PLAY

Another thing: DoFlamingo was clearly happy by killing Moria, he even went as far as to say that it would be fun to kill him without any consequences, because it would just be covered as if he died in the battlefield
It wouldn't make sense for DofuckingFlamingo, a villain Oda is clearly hyping up a lot (almost as much as Akainu) to just lose credibility in whatever he says

Cream-of-Chicken

@JERK:

Another thing.

Donflamingo could spare him for some sneaky reason, sure.

One problem.

The little altercation was surrounded by Pacifistas. How exactly could Donflamingo do anything against his orders when watched by impartial ironlly loyal cyborgs? Even if he let Moria run the Pacifistas would take him out.

that cliffhanger had nothing to do with Mori'as fate. I don't even think it was a cliffhanger. Just a cut away from the violence. Tell me what is hinted at that makes for the dramatic moment that ends the chapter.

Also there's more reason to kill him then to let him live.

MIHAWK IS NOT UNSURE OF MORIA BEING DEAD
HE"S JUST SUSPICIOUS OF THE STORY IN THE PAPER BEING ACCURATE, IN THE SENSE OF HOW MORIA DIED

HES SUSPECTING WHAT HAPPENED, FOUL PLAY

Good points. However, we don't know who's running those Pacifistas…I have a feeling that the Vegapunk that was in tears because he couldn't help that frozen island wouldn't want to be making war weapons for the Government; not voluntarily, anyways.
However, there's no doubt that someone would know if Doflamingo let him go. Vegapunk doing this on his own or not, someone else would have found out. So he's dead.

And I agree, Mihawk recognizes the foul play and I wouldn't be surprised if he suspected the Gorousei. Who else would have managed it? Who else could the Gorousei have sent besides Doflamingo?