@brennen.exe:
@Spell: I figure this should conclude most of our discussion…
It actually had the opposite effect on me. Sorry if I annoy.
The reason is your complete dismissal of anything but your point, the one you wanted to discuss, I mean. And it hurts, man!:sad: I´m actually trying to steer the subject in a new direction and stimulate new conversation. At this point it´s not so much about discussing this particular point, even though I will, but of talking about other stuff too.
The reason I don´t like it when people segregate parts of a post is that they attack a sentence, not an idea. An idea that is formed by the entirety of a paragraph. Furthermore, it suggests that you are summarizing it in your mind, and choosing to pay more or less attention to certain details. Not that you are doing any of this, mind you, but it does feel cheapening from my standpoint. I´ve had it done to me many times, and it´s just my own experience to be wary of it. Please excuse my paranoia.
But perhaps more dissapointing is that you don´t care to discuss any of the things I was interested in. Onwards.
Bottom line, my opinion:
Let me make it clear then because obviously something was lost in my propriety. I believe that in the endgame a DF is just a tool. A weapon like any other. It allows the user to surpass certain limitations of the body, or develop special techniques. I´d be so bold as to compare it to the mastery of a sword for instance. Look at the ridiculous power of Mihawk´s non DF skill. I would say it even outclasses some of the more outrageous DF powers.
DFs in a one-on-one fight though, they mean diddly squat. If Haki allows the body to keep up with a man who moves at lightspeed, shoots lasers and explosions, all of this while you are a senior citizen who can even afford the luxury of looking away or being worried, then excuse me but allow me to disagree that DFs make that much of a difference in the long haul end game scenario. This Haki business makes the body´s limitations really negligible.
So when Sammsy says that Ace will always be stronger because of his DF, I disagree because at the top of their power, DFs would not be what seperates victory from loss, but their resolve and their drive.
I of course will concede that somewhere in the middle of that journey it does give a distinct advantage, especially when Haki is not on the table, where Sammsy´s argument is valid, but by the end it´s not.
This is what I disagree with mostly.
Just a couple more things, bear with me.
@brennen.exe:
I was just making sure the comment was directed at me. The comment was about someone using one mistake to discredit the argument as a whole, which, if aimed at me, isn't the case as I pointed out. No need to get defensive.
Defensive? I was being conciliatory. Guess I´m really bad at trying to be friendly over the internet.
@brennen.exe:
Smoker was surprised that Hancock could hit him, not confident that he knew how she was hitting him. Rumors aren't considered fact, most of the time. In addition to this, and touching on Ace as well, is the fight at Arabasta. Of course, that brings to question whether or not Oda really had the whole concept worked out back then or not. Who knows. Either way, as of now they are far from confirmed users, leaning strongly towards non-users.
Alright. You make a fair point with this. I wonder though, since a fair amount of high level marines know about it, if there´s a level of clearance or rank where they tell you that it exists, or if it is a hidden truth or something. It´s clear that the marines have no qualms over their subordinates learning it, though.
@brennen.exe:
A logia is still a logia. The built-in defense is balanced by the other superior powers he gains. Don't forget the origin of the argument, that gaining a logia is basically an instant upgrade. A mark is still a mark, and "all" so far still only covers one person out of six, and even that one person is just likely speculation. I'm just pointing out the error in your argument, not trying to unhinge it with this single point.
Now this is just as much speculation on your part as it is mine. We have never seen a Logia user in his infancy as a user, just when he´s discovering his fruit. But the one thing we know is that while the ability of intangibility does come with the fruit, in order for it to be truly effective it needs to be trained. This is mentioned both by Croc and by Enel (Enel´s line on it is more relevant to this though), so regardless of Haki usage training with the DF is required.
This is central to the point about Logia defense I am trying to make. You may disagree and we´ll agree to disagree if you do, but the Manga does state that Logia defense needs to be trained. I´m being lazy, if you want I´ll look it up. Something about activating it reflexively.
I don´t think it´s an instant upgrade at all, but it does unlock "skill trees", if you will (hope I'm not being too nerdy) that are impossible to compensate for until the regular human gets strong enough to master haki, or gets some really cheesy seastone equipment. This is the growth period Luffy is still in. The reason he loses squarely to Smoker without a hope in the world.
@brennen.exe:
Using the same logic, so does Luffy and Coby, so I don't see how this line of argumentation at all helps your point.
Neither of them have a Logia so they would not fit into my argument about what having haki, regardless of control, means for a Logia. I meant that having haki, even in a latent stage, has implications that the user has great strength and willpower and the ability to master a fruit. Regardless of whether or not he can use it, it says a lot about the person´s drive, like it does for Luffy.
@brennen.exe:
This is called speculation. I never said it was baseless, I just noted that it could be something else. It's bad practice to treat speculation as fact and then base your argument around it.
Your ability to deny extreme plausibility is astounding. And I understand the devil´s advocate stance, I usually take it, but there really isn´t much else it could be, man. I understand that you don´t want to take it at face value yet, but let´s be honest for a moment here, do you really believe that it isn´t haki? And yes I do base my argument around them having haki, but I´d say its obvious. Let me elaborate
We do know that there are people who can sense haki, almost like a sixth sense, and that the Admirals can do this, and furthermore can identify (at least Akainu can) that the haki from Luffy is not a controlled release. Aokiji identified a blow with Haki, and reacted to it fast enough to phaze his body in the area of the blow. You can say that this isn´t haki, you can say he just dodges every blow from WB like that on the precaution that it might have haki, but I find it highly unlikely. Again, it´s possible, but that doesn´t explain why he didn´t dodge the quake wave WB launched at him. Perhaps haki doesn´t work at range. Again. There are counter arguments but arguing that Admirals don´t have haki is far harder than saying it isn´t.
Hell, arguing that they don´t is near impossible considering the magic defense pose on the scaffold, and knowing that that pose is a defensive skill, used by the man with a world class defense, a technique that hurt Luffy the rubberman with a concussive force even though it shouldn´t be possible, and knowing that the only force so far (and let´s be less cerebral and admit that it will be the only one) that can do that is haki.
@brennen.exe:
Ok. That was the only point. You concede that eating a logia (in this case, for Ace) instantly made him notably stronger. Everything else involves a hefty amount of suggestive fan fiction that doesn't matter at all.
Not instantly. But I do agree and understand why you defend Sammsy´s posts. Just understand why I disagree.
@brennen.exe:
What I can say is that the manga disagrees with you. Comments through characters from Oda trumps artistic evidence in my book: "I had always thought the Power Users were a brittle lot, over-relying on their powers and helpless without them. But I see that when it comes to Whitebeard's own battle commander…The man excels in basic battle ability as well...!!!" (Ch. 441)
The manga does not disagree with me. The manga says exactly what I am saying and I had that quote very present in my mind when I said that. Sure Ace is hella strong. So is Luffy, who also excels in basic battle ability. And Luffy as he is now would also lose squarely against Blackbeard. All Luffy has now is basic fighting ability. He´s awesome at it, sure, but that´s it. Kicks and punches. They´re very strong, but they´re kicks and punches.
But Luffy will develop a more advanced style, inevitably with the use of Haki, that is or would be considered non-basic. A skillset that will allow him to go toe to toe with Blackbeard because he will train his body and his haki better than Ace did, and have better fighting techniques for the big leagues that don´t involve Logia or DF hax. Also the use of Haki, which Ace does not display or use effectively in his big losses.
The following are examples of what I would consider advanced skills:
Ivankov´s Winks and Galaxy Wink.
Azura
Sentoumaru´s defense.
All of Rayleigh´s moveset.
Most of Mihawk´s moveset as well.
Garp´s fist of love and other stuff too I imagine.
Boa´s Kiss bullet thingy, and basic kicks and punches.
I think these skills are available through haki, and would be considered more than basic-fighting ability by seasoned veterans. Basically your quote says that Ace is not a wimp. And I never said that. But I did say, and keep saying that the skillset he developed was not competitive enough in the world of the top dogs.
@brennen.exe:
Ignoring the theory, what am I discrediting? Ambition has little to do with the primary power boost you gain from a logia, and half of the listed logia users at best are likely Ambition users. Of them, only two (Akainu and Enel) actually made effective use of it while all of the logia users are considered high level fighters on near Devil Fruit power alone. No doubt they are all strong in their own rite, but their fruit power gives them a level of safety and power with absolutely no effort involved. If you agree, case dismissed. As I said, stupid argument with little purpose, but there you have it.
Do you not like the theory? Are you inentionally trying to hurt my feelings, as I pour heart and soul into the admittedly speculative ramblings of this beloved manga? You, sir, have wounded me.
I agree that with everything not bolded. But a Logia needs to be honed and trained. It´s not instant hax. At least this is the conclusion I've arrived to. Also, it gives them a level of safety and power that literally dissappears at the highest levels of power.
And this, closing up, is the point about Logia´s and Ace that I am trying to make. Against the top dogs, a Logia defense is a mere hurdle, not an unnassailable fortress. And the safety net that it provides up until the point where you meet someone like Rayleigh, if you get cocky and don´t train for it, can get you rusty and can get you killed. Enter Ace, Enel and Croc.
Best manga ending you matter you saying.
