For the "rival crews", was the exact argument.
Which reminds me, does nobody remember that Law and Kidd survived the Pacifista attack, or that Law recruited an infamous pirate captain before leaving the Auction House?
Next Crew Member Speculation (Ver 3.0)
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I've run through a bunch of possibilities. But I still can't deny the possibility that she simply gets out of it with her "always forgiven" character trait.
Ok but then my follow up is this: Why would Oda put himself in a position that would require the readers to suspend disbelief in order to accept the amount of Plot Induced Stupidity needed for non fodder marine characters like Smoker and Sentoumaru to ignore the betrayal when Oda could have just as easily had Marco save Luffy from Smoker? Especially since WB gave Marco the order to protect him 1 chapter previous to Hancock saving him.
Secondly the Sentoumaru and Hancock interaction was completely unnecessary because she could have stopped that Pacifista without answering to Sentoumaru, none of us would've questioned that. Lastly, if Smoker or Sentoumaru reports her the "I'm beautiful" thing more than likely wouldn't work on Sengoku and if it did then the strike against her in regards to her joining due to her title is meaningless anyway. See what I mean? After Ace died I don't think anyone can brush off the chances of Oda wiping out AL when we seem to be heading towards a darker more chaotic era in OP.
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The fact of the matter is that the BB pirates, who are a rival crew to the SH's, have 3 level 6-class pirates (where the Warlords went), and a former warden who was told to be as strong as Magellan. The idea that a Warlord would make the crew too strong is silly in comparison.
Well of course compared to the BB pirates right now but nobody said anything different.
Compared to Kidd and Law's crews on the other hand…The strawhats will get stronger and will take on the BB pirates at the very end or close to it. That theory has never changed. I'd rather they do it with their own powers instead of relying on ex Warlords.
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The level of infamy is relative. They weren't all nobodies, like your post implies, as different (particularly more recent) members have had varied levels of infamy prior to their meeting. Zoro was a well known bounty hunter whose fame stretched into the Grand Line. Robin is a world renowned criminal, regardless of what you say, and is still known as the "devil of Ohara". She also served below the Warlord that Luffy defeated and had been a pirate herself. Sanji is the apprentice and successor if you will of a well known retired pirate. Franky was an apprentice of a legendary shipwright, and wanted for his own crimes (but thought dead). Brook had a bounty that was the same as Luffy's a good ways into the Grand Line, was a former captain, and apparently had even more history as the leader of some unnamed kingdom's battle convoy. To have one new member who is on the same level of notoriety as Luffy – whose infamy is growing by the second -- is nothing in comparison to the S-Class criminals that Blackbeard has just recruited, and wouldn't really affect this supposed "underdog" requirement people tack on new memebers. At least, no more than Brook, Franky, or Robin did.
It's unfortunate you got that implication from my post.
Robin serving a warlord has nothing to do with her infamy since it was a secret organization. I'm talking about infamy in the OP world not to the readers.
Cutty Flam is dead. Nobody knew Franky was Tom's apprentice except for CP9/WG. That has nothing to do with his infamy since the person that's connected to him is dead. I'm talking about infamy in the OP world not to the readers. At the most he's known as the baddest guy on Water 7 as leader of the Franky Family walking around wearing colorful masks and shit.
Brook. lawls. I don't feel like copy and pasting the same thing for the previous two but you should understand in the OP world even now as apart of Luffy's crew nobody knows Humming Brook is alive and most likely nobody will recognize him. Lets wait to see if he does something worthwhile on that island he's on or if he gets a bounty raise for the events at SA.
My post was replying to what Croy said and what Urogue said he'd raise as a point. Croy is talking about the chances of two shichibukai joining not one.
Either way with what I stated about them being underdogs and currently paving their way as legends there's a huge difference in the stuff you've stated. I don't know how you can claim infamy is relative as if there aren't differences between Zoro strongest swordsman in East Blue and Zoro, the man who defeated Dracule Mihawk.
What I originally saw the argument as was BB's crew just got some legends so the SHs need some big names too!
No. They don't need that.
You may see one big name not being much of a problem in the theme most of the SHs already have but I disagree.
@Urouge:For the "rival crews", was the exact argument.
See when it's about the # of nakama on both sides I can understand that. #s play somewhat of a significant role.
If it's just "rival crews" a.k.a. BB's crew seem way more stronger than the SHs because they have known legends then fuck that stupid shit.
It's no different than the argument that the SHs can't have a shichibukai join because they're too strong. "NOBODY CAN BE STRONGER THAN THE MONSTER TRIO!!! BLAH BLAH!!!DER!!" but just the inverse. Those are stupid arguments imo.
The crew can always get stronger and to break out of the realm of things can't be predicted. The SHs are going to whoop the Blackbeard's pirate's crew ass in the end anyway AND if they don't oh well that's the way Oda wrote it and nothing would've changed it anyway.
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After Ace died I don't think anyone can brush off the chances of Oda wiping out AL when we seem to be heading towards a darker more chaotic era in OP.
So Boa is just supposed to carry on with her life knowing she's responsible (for selfish reasons too) for the anhiliation of her people ?
What is she, Griffith ?
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Ok but then my follow up is this: Why would Oda put himself in a position that would require the readers to suspend disbelief in order to accept the amount of Plot Induced Stupidity needed for non fodder marine characters like Smoker and Sentoumaru to ignore the betrayal when Oda could have just as easily had Marco save Luffy from Smoker? Especially since WB gave Marco the order to protect him 1 chapter previous to Hancock saving him?
Secondly the Sentoumaru and Hancock interaction was completely unnecessary because she could have stopped that Pacifista without answering to Sentoumaru, none of us would've questioned that. Lastly, if Smoker or Sentoumaru reports her the "I'm beautiful" thing more than likely wouldn't work on Sengoku and if it did then the strike against her in regards to her joining due to her title is meaningless anyway. See what I mean? After Ace died I don't think anyone can brush off the chances of Oda wiping out AL when we seem to be heading towards a darker more chaotic era in OP.
I see the Marines giving her a stern warning of her doing further betrayals and make her come to terms with just how thin on ice she is with her titles privaleges. Which than sets up the possible confrontation in a future arc where she will have to choose openly whether to protect/be with Luffy or have her title severed. I don't want her to lose her title this easily, but I also agree those events will not go unnoticed. Oda has a way of being poignant by having things screw up or turn around at just the right emotional moment. Her shedding the title, if it happens, has to come with immediate consequences rather than aftermath style that its in currently.
I actually think her chances are now better off with her keeping the title if momentarily. The Amazon Lily judgement storyline can be stalled, and since they have a hard enough time getting a hold of her she can just go find Luffy and they would be none the wiser till they see her clearly with Luffy in another arc later (Fishman Island). The one clear thing is until she knows Luffy is all right she isn't heading back to Amazon Lily. That I am certain of. She said it herself back in Impel Down.
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Ok but then my follow up is this: Why would Oda put himself in a position that would require the readers to suspend disbelief in order to accept the amount of Plot Induced Stupidity needed for non fodder marine characters like Smoker and Sentoumaru to ignore the betrayal when Oda could have just as easily had Marco save Luffy from Smoker? Especially since WB gave Marco the order to protect him 1 chapter previous to Hancock saving him?
It's entirely possible that he's simply playing up Hancock's character. Emphasizing her feelings and her ability to be forgiven for "anything." It's also possible that he's been foreshadowing a doom and gloom scenario for Amazon Lily ever since Nyon's comments. I could go either way with it. That being said…
Secondly the Sentoumaru and Hancock interaction was completely unnecessary because she could have stopped that Pacifista without answering to Sentoumaru, none of us would've questioned that. Lastly, if Smoker or Sentoumaru reports her the "I'm beautiful" thing more than likely wouldn't work on Sengoku and if it did then the strike against her in regards to her joining due to her title is meaningless anyway. See what I mean? After Ace died I don't think anyone can brush off the chances of Oda wiping out AL when we seem to be heading towards a darker more chaotic era in OP.
After all the darkness we're currently having, I'll be very surprised if Amazon Lily gets annihilated. That's simply too much dark (since I doubt Oda is going to totally change). It should be time for an upswing, after this.
Well of course compared to the BB pirates right now but nobody said anything different.
Compared to Kidd and Law's crews on the other hand…The strawhats will get stronger and will take on the BB pirates at the very end or close to it. That theory has never changed. I'd rather they do it with their own powers instead on relying on ex Warlords.
You're making two huge assumptions here. First is that Law and Kid's crews can't grow in strength comparatively. The other (more important) point is that you're assuming that they'll be main antagonists. They could just as easily serve a purpose as important side characters like Paulie or Wiper did.
I don't see why having one of the matches involve an ex-Warlord is all that bad. It's all relative.
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
See when it's about the # of nakama on both sides I can understand that. #s play somewhat of a significant role.
If it's just "rival crews" a.k.a. BB's crew seem way more stronger than the SHs because they have known legends then fuck that stupid shit.
It's no different than the argument that the SHs can't have a shichibukai join because they're too strong. "NOBODY CAN BE STRONGER THAN THE MONSTER TRIO!!! BLAH BLAH!!!DER!!" but just the inverse. Those are stupid arguments imo.
The crew can always get stronger and to break out of the realm of things can't be predicted. The SHs are going to whoop the Blackbeard's pirate's crew ass in the end anyway AND if they don't oh well that's the way Oda wrote it and nothing would've changed it anyway.
You're preaching to the choir. :ninja:
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The SH will more than likely be running into Teach and co more than once. They will need to be ready and strong enough to survive such an encounter at the very least. Coming out of this war Luffy will be a big-name…. He is going to outstripe the other supernovas, and that's the way it should be. He is still going to be an underdog though because of what BB is about to do and the fact that there will also be big fish in the NW. The idea that the growth of Luffy's crew should be limited by lesser rivals like Kidd or Law doesn't work..
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So Boa is just supposed to carry on with her life knowing she's responsible (for selfish reasons too) for the anhiliation of her people ?
What is she, Griffith ?
You're talking as if she hasn't betrayed them already, we're past the point in which your question means anything because in Hancock's mind she believes that her beauty really does excuse her from consequences, so AL getting destroyed would be a massive slap of reality possibly even causing some character change for Hancock.
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Can we discuss Perona, who is far better for these things than Boa Hancock and what side of the island is she on…
That or Jinbei, let's bring Jinbei in the picture...
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^No I like my argument/topic better. Get lost.
@brennen.exe:Which reminds me, does nobody remember that Law and Kidd survived the Pacifista attack, or that Law recruited an infamous pirate captain before leaving the Auction House?
You mean Law, the future runner up to the future Pirate King Monkey D. Luffy?
PPL using the argument that too strong or the SHs need notorious pirates have weak points. Can they have a notorious/infamous? Yes, but they probably won't.
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It's entirely possible that he's simply playing up Hancock's character. Emphasizing her feelings and her ability to be forgiven for "anything." It's also possible that he's been foreshadowing a doom and gloom scenario for Amazon Lily ever since Nyon's comments. I could go either way with it.
This is pretty much where I'm at a deadend in thought but I just can't get past the fact that Oda chose two characters who aren't going to fall for her beauty schtick and that the whole scenario almost would be like him writing himself into a corner by even bothering to have Hancock save Luffy from Smoker and to have her face Sentoumaru for saving Luffy from the Pacifista when there were a number of WB pirates and Marco or Jinbei who could've saved him especially if all Oda's gonna do is have Hancock strike a pose and all is forgiven.
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Robin alone makes the statement that they 'have' to have underdogs false. Sure she seems like an underdog now but when she joined she was more infamous than the captain himself, had a bounty only just under him, and was the second in command to the highest known authority (besides the marines) we knew at that time, the shichibukai. Jinbei and Hancock could very easily 'still' be considered underdogs by the likes of the higher tier crews in the new world, and they certainly are to the marines admirals. They just seem to be so high tier now because of all the info we know at the moment.
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After these last couple of chapters of unexpected brutality for OP I can no longer eliminate the possibility of AL ending up like Ohara, although I can't say whether or not Oda will take things that far but facts remain that Hancock has already betrayed the WG and there must be a reason for Oda depicting Smoker and Sentoumaru taking note of this.
Oh yeah. Just throwing it out there but maybe Oda did that too avoid the even more dumber scenario where Hancock constantly saves Luffy from fodder and the marines give absolutely no reaction?
Think about it if he did that it would've been horrible story writing from any point of view unless he wants us to see marine competence as a fact. Yes, I can see why you think there might be more to Oda picking Sentomaru and Smoker but imo it won't be as big as you guys think it will be in regards to her losing her title and the island automatically becoming in danger after this war is over with(which is highly unlikely imo).
I'm not even saying her title won't get stripped if she does something else. but at this point I don't think it will. Even in that scenario there's even more reason for her to stick with her country. After seeing how Luffy reacted to losing his brother in this war I don't see any scenario or can predict any future event where he'd ask her to join or where she'd ask to join.
Plus if Oda slaughters AL, Hancock has to die with them.
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This is pretty much where I'm at a deadend in thought but I just can't get past the fact that Oda chose two characters who aren't going to fall for her beauty schtick and that the whole scenario almost would be like him writing himself into a corner by even bothering to have Hancock save Luffy from Smoker and to have her face Sentoumaru for saving Luffy from the Pacifista when there were a number of WB pirates and Jinbei who could've done the same if all he's gonna do is just have her strike a pose and all is forgiven.
But see, you don't know that at all. If he does, he's telling us what Hancock is really capable of, and just how unique Luffy actually is to not be affected. As I said, I can see it going either way. I wont dismiss either possibility like you seem to be trying to get me to.
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But see, you don't know that at all. If he does, he's telling us what Hancock is really capable of, and just how unique Luffy actually is to not be affected. As I said, I can see it going either way. I wont dismiss either possibility like you seem to be trying to get me to.
But then why didn't Smoker and Sentoumaru make heart eyes and act like drooling idiots on the spot? If Smoker were affected why would he be able to threaten her about what would happen if she betrayed the marines? Hell that threat is smelling like forshadowing now, makes me wish that I'd have remembered that Ace of Spades is the death card when Ace was revealed as captain of the Spade Pirates.
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But then why didn't Smoker and Sentoumaru make heart eyes and act like drooling idiots on the spot? If Smoker were affected why would he be able to threaten her about what would happen if she betrayed the marines? Hell that threat is smelling like forshadowing now, makes me wish that I'd remembered that Ace of Spades is the death card when Ace was named captain of the Spade Pirates.
Lol never thought about that Ace of Spades foreshadow heh. I agree with Urogue we should wait and see. Like I said im in the middle of the road. I think she will eventually have the title stripped and it will come from the culmination of events leading to a climax. She has not gotten that climax, its not in Odas story style to end a plot line like this on a whimper. She won't lose it yet, but I think she will from her doing something even worse than helping Luffy in the war.
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But then why didn't Smoker and Sentoumaru make heart eyes and act like drooling idiots on the spot? If Smoker were affected why would he be able to threaten her about what would happen if she betrayed the marines? Hell that threat is smelling like forshadowing now, makes me wish that I'd remembered that Ace of Spades is the death card when Ace was revealed as captain of the Spade Pirates.
Because Hancock didn't do her little "cutesy" routine that causes people to make the heart eyes in the first place. It's not some permanent effect that never goes away. It's something she has the ability to induce in people.
Also, I'm not sold on the idea that Smoker would even tell on her in the first place.
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Always the exception to the rule eh wolfie?
That's one of the reasons you're an apostle of Buggy.
Yeah i usualy trot about on hidden stilts with a blonde wig, clear blue contacts and a bottle of vodka under my arm to maximize my opportunities to fuck with people's stereotypes.
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Robin alone makes the statement that they 'have' to have underdogs false. Sure she seems like an underdog now but when she joined she was more infamous than the captain himself, had a bounty only just under him, and was the second in command to the highest known authority (besides the marines) we knew at that time, the shichibukai. Jinbei and Hancock could very easily 'still' be considered underdogs by the likes of the higher tier crews in the new world, and they certainly are to the marines admirals. They just seem to be so high tier now because of all the info we know at the moment.
Notice this argument only works for SHs that are already SHs. Is Oda gonna completely ignore the infamy "former" shichibukai have?
The only way what you're talking about works is if all the SHs face in the NW are other New World crew which isn't going to be the case.
As for robin she wasn't more infamous when she just joined. Nobody knew shit about her other than she had a connection to the poneglyphs and was previously working with Croc. By the time her past is revealed for being a demon child Luffy already had a higher bounty than her.
What are you basing infamy off of? The length of time? The crime? or the bounty? I'd say you should consider all and if so Luffy was more infamous than Robin by the time she joined. What Luffy wasn't was more mysterious than Robin.
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Because Hancock didn't do her little "cutesy" routine that causes people to make the heart eyes in the first place. It's not some permanent effect that never goes away. It's something she has the ability to induce in people.
Also, I'm not sold on the idea that Smoker would even tell on her in the first place.
Smoker is one of the few marines I see yelling it to the higher authorities. He had no reservation of distrusting and wanting see Crocodile fall back in Alabasta because he hates the idea of the shichibukai "Once a pirate, always a pirate". His sense of justice is the type that just wouldn't let this excursion go, especially since he was attacked by her without even a hint of backing down. Sentoumaru is a bit of irregularity because we don't know what kind of justice he believes in but he will definitely tell the superiors about her trashing the Pacifista who each cost a battleship to manufacture. Who knows how many she actually ended up taking out.
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I'm going to laugh so hard when she meets up with him after the war. it's too bad that I'll be laughing to myself, as everyone who is now deeming the situation "impossible" will have forgotten about that.
i think they are going to meet up again it just i don't think it going to be right a way maybe in the new world
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You're talking as if she hasn't betrayed them already, we're past the point in which your question means anything because in Hancock's mind she believes that her beauty really does excuse her from consequences, so AL getting destroyed would be a massive slap of reality possibly even causing some character change for Hancock.
Possibly some character change ?
Yeah I too would expect her blind devotion to Luffy ultimately causing the annihilation of her people to cause a tiny bit of character development for Boa Hancock.
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Because Hancock didn't do her little "cutesy" routine that causes people to make the heart eyes in the first place. It's not some permanent effect that never goes away. It's something she has the ability to induce in people.
Also, I'm not sold on the idea that Smoker would even tell on her in the first place.
But Oda had not only Smoker but also Sentoumaru take note of her actions, two people and we're supposed to believe that neither are going to do their jobs? Secondly do you really believe that Oda did all this just to have Hancock pose then problem disappear in order to reinforce a nonessential plot element such as her charm and Luffy's immunity to it?
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Smoker is one of the few marines I see yelling it to the higher authorities. He had no reservation of distrusting and wanting see Crocodile fall back in Alabasta because he hates the idea of the shichibukai "Once a pirate, always a pirate". His sense of justice is the type that just wouldn't let this excursion go, especially since he was attacked by her without even a hint of backing down..
Smoker is also a man of honor and it would seem petty for him to tell on a woman for kicking his ass.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Notice this argument only works for SHs. Is Oda gonna completely ignore the infamy "former" shichibukai have?
The only way what you're talking about works is if all the SHs face in the NW are other New World crew which isn't going to be the case.
As for robin she wasn't more infamous when she just joined. Nobody knew shit about her other than she had a connection to the poneglyphs and was previously working with Croc. By the time her past is revealed for being a demon child Luffy already had a higher bounty than her.
What are you basing infamy off of? The length of time? The crime? or the bounty? I'd say you should consider all and if so Luffy was more infamous than Robin by the time she joined. What Luffy wasn't was more mysterious than Robin.
You just proved my arguement. Luffy is by far more infamous than Jinbei and Hancock at this point in time. Luffy wasn't more infamous than Robin when he met her, but he was when she joined. After everything Luffy did in this saga there is no way his 'infamy' will be under Jinbei or Hancock at this point.
And in response to my arguement about Robin. I mean all the above. She was the right hand of Crocodile, so until the very climax of the arc, she always 'appeared' above even Luffy and the rest of the crew. Even after she joined she had world class infamy as the Demon of Ohara. It was so high that the marines were willing to let the strawhats go as long as she went with them. Her life mattered to them more than the entire strawhat crew even AFTER she joined. Until we knew of her devil fruit weakness she also seemed nigh invincible, a top tier fighter the likes of which the strawhats hadn't seen. The very thought that she might join the group would have been unheard of at the time but look she is with the group now. Infamy is relative to the point in the plot. That is what im argueing. What might seem infamous now might be a shell of what awaits.
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Smoker is also a man of honor and it would seem petty for him to tell on a woman for kicking his ass.
About as petty as picking a fight with a guy who's just trying to stop his brother from being executed when said guy had one of his men save Smoker's ass from drowning.
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But Oda had not only Smoker but also Sentoumaru take note of her actions, two people and we're supposed to believe that neither are going to do their jobs? Secondly do you really believe that Oda did all this just to have Hancock pose then problem disappear to reinforce a nonessential plot element such as her charm and Luffy's immunity to it?
Ok a few things. First, you're asking if I believe something (as if I think it's set in stone) when I've consistently said that I simply leave the possibility open. Second, you're assuming that this would continue to be a nonessential plot element, when there's no reason to assume that. Third, you're assuming that Hancock can't force forgiveness from whoever is necessary at some other point than the panels we were shown. (It could be after the scene, or even after the war). I'm in a much easier arguing position here, as you're the one who is burdening yourself with proof.
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@Zik:
It's unfortunate you got that implication from my post.
Hmm… "underdog type [..] creating their legends/infamy [..] about strength or notoriety. [..] unknown/rookie ppl [..] aint no legend." Basically, in both strength and notoriety, all the crew members are only now creating their "legends" or "infamy". I'm not sure what else you could be implying with lines like "underdog type" and "unknown/rookie ppl", but I read that as people who don't have infamy or legends, people who are unknown or rookies, and people who haven't created a name for themselves in either strength or notoriety. Therefore, nobodies.
@Zik:
Robin serving a warlord has nothing to do with her infamy since it was a secret organization. I'm talking about infamy in the OP world not to the readers.
Well you hadn't specified, so now that I know, I can discuss accordingly. Even still, I don't see how you can really make this claim and just make Robin an exception. Robin, Brook, and Zoro had all (publicly) begun their own infamous career prior to joining the crew. Just because Brook has been AFK for a while doesn't mean he doesn't have a history. Just because Zoro's fame was limited to one ocean and part of another doesn't mean it wasn't fame. People pissed their pants hearing about his name when he was introduced. And Robin? Robin was hated her whole life everywhere she went, by common folk and pirate alike. People (Arabasta) were shocked at the news of her publicly joining Luffy's crew. I will grant you that Franky was thought dead and was only known as a criminal to the World Government, but that doesn't change the fact that his criminal and professional career had started long before joining the Strawhat crew. I mean, I really don't understand how or why this whole "the world sees them all as underdogs" even exists, as if the World Government has no explanation for giving people bounties. Brook, Robin, and Franky all had bounties when they joined, even if Franky's was acquired while working with the crew.
@Zik:
My post was replying to what Croy said and what Urouge said he'd raise as a point. Croy is talking about the chances of two Shichibukai joining not one.
Again, you didn't really specify. In fact, "underdog type" and "unknown/rookie" imply you are comparing with the infamy a Warlord would have, not strictly the infamy two Warlords would have, so I don't see how this changes anything… or is relevant at all.
@Zik:
I don't know how you can claim infamy is relative as if there aren't differences between Zoro strongest swordsman in East Blue and Zoro, the man who defeated Dracule Mihawk.
"The level of infamy is relative [..] as different members have had varied levels of infamy prior to their meeting." – IE: Zoro being the infamous "Pirate Hunter" is different than Usopp, the random kid from a random island. Or Chopper, the closet doctor from a winter island in comparison with the "Demon of Ohara", who spent the last two decades hated and on the run. It varies. Greatly. My overall point was that as time has gone on, we have had people with longer and more notorious histories behind them. Both public, private, and "forgotten".
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About as petty as picking a fight with a guy who's just trying to stop his brother from being executed when said guy had one of his men save Smoker's ass from drowning.
Smoker vowed to defeat the strawhats. He wasn't gonna let this opportunity pass. He's had a grudge against the strawhats since Logue Town.
2 very different situations.But I agree about Smoker's "ungratefulness".
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But Oda had not only Smoker but also Sentoumaru take note of her actions, two people and we're supposed to believe that neither are going to do their jobs? Secondly do you really believe that Oda did all this just to have Hancock pose then problem disappear in order to reinforce a nonessential plot element such as her charm and Luffy's immunity to it?
Regardless of the whether they took note or plan to report what she did you are neglecting the fact that they don't know why she was fighting both sides. Her connection to Luffy isn't really noticed at all. She makes it clear to the fodder marines that she considers all men as an enemy and attacks without discretion. This seems somewhat in line with her country's policy and Sengoku could easily just excuse her actions based on that. After all, if the Shichibukai still exist after this war Sengoku is probably going to need her.
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You just proved my arguement. Luffy is by far more infamous than Jinbei and Hancock at this point in time. Luffy wasn't more infamous than Robin when he met her, but he was when she joined. After everything Luffy did in this saga there is no way his 'infamy' will be under Jinbei or Hancock at this point.
He's more infamous than Robin and his infamy continues to grow. I don't think you understand my argument. It's not just the shichibukai are to notorious to join. It was orginally and I'll say it again, just cuz BB has legendary pirates doesn't mean the SHs need to match that and that furthermore the two crews are somewhat polar opposite of each other in regards to that. The majority of the SHs are currently making a name for themselves in this era right now as no names. When it comes to Robin, demon of Ohara pales in comparison to the chick who knows everything about the void century. They're all moving forward to something.
I didn't say the shichibukai can't join because of their infamy but that the fact they are infamous is another reason they won't join.
And in response to my arguement about Robin. I mean all the above. She was the right hand of Crocodile, so until the very climax of the arc, she always 'appeared' above even Luffy and the rest of the crew.
I'll say it again. When I'm talking about infamy, I'm talking about within the OP world not to the readers. Robin could've secretly been the real master mind behind BW and didn't get caught it don't mean shit cuz nobody knows. How she was portrayed to us isn't the same as her actual infamy in the OP world.
Even after she joined she had world class infamy as the Demon of Ohara. It was so high that the marines were willing to let the strawhats go as long as she went with them. Her life mattered to them more than the entire strawhat crew even AFTER she joined. Until we knew of her devil fruit weakness she also seemed nigh invincible, a top tier fighter the likes of which the strawhats hadn't seen. The very thought that she might join the group would have been unheard of at the time but look she is with the group now. Infamy is relative to the point in the plot. That is what im argueing. What might seem infamous now might be a shell of what awaits.
Super rookie Luffy was more infamous than her imo especially by the time she joined. Going off Robin's back story she's been laying low ever since she got her initial bounty. Joining secret organizations to further her own goals, backstabbing ppl who would've done it to her. It's arguable most regular ppl wouldn't have been able to connect the 8 year old Robin's bounty poster with the 28 year old one given a disguise. She wasn't more notorious than Luffy at that point. Everything in her rescue arc was just that. Dealing with a bunch of marines and WG agents.
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This argument is already won for you… It's 100% true that Oda isn't adding any legend or some ultra powerful person to the crew.
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Ok a few things. First, you're asking if I believe something (as if I think it's set in stone) when I've consistently said that I simply leave the possibility open. Second, you're assuming that this would continue to be a nonessential plot element, when there's no reason to assume that. Third, you're assuming that Hancock can't force forgiveness from whoever is necessary at some other point than the panels we were shown. (It could be after the scene, or even after the war). I'm in a much easier arguing position here, as you're the one who is burdening yourself with proof.
First I'm asking whether you believe enough in it to include it as legitimate possibility, example being that Perona technically is a possible future crewmate but I personally don't see her as a possibility. Second my reasoning is that the plot element of Luffy being immune to Hancock's charm kinda becomes irrelevant if she's chilling in AL and Luffy's with his crew in the NW, because in that case when is his immunity to her charms ever going to come up again? We already know he's special and Mihawk verbalized his ability to attract people, etc. Third again it comes back me just trying to figure out a reason for Oda bothering with it when he could've just avoided the scenario, why have Hancock seemingly be threatened by Smoker just to charm the situation away when her charm abilities are already seemingly established?
But yeah I see that this is heading into one of those debates in which one person is to caught in their own thoughts of where the story is headed when Oda can take it wherever. So personally I'll just say that I'd find it more understandable if Oda tries to show that she can't always charm her way out of a situation and that her love dovey stuff isn't so perfect, which would make sense considering that Smoker threatened her, rather than the idea that she could've winked and he'd be drooling on the floor. How/why would she even be able to become a strong warrior if she can avoid all conflict with a pose?
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its gotta be moria!! for sure its moria :OOOOOO
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Hmm… "underdog type [..] creating their legends/infamy [..] about strength or notoriety. [..] unknown/rookie ppl [..] aint no legend." Basically, in both strength and notoriety, all the crew members are only now creating their "legends" or "infamy". I'm not sure what else you could be implying with lines like "underdog type" and "unknown/rookie ppl", but I read that as people who don't have infamy or legends, people who are unknown or rookies, and people who haven't created a name for themselves in either strength or notoriety. Therefore, nobodies.
Like I said it's unfortunate.
Even still, I don't see how you can really make this claim and just make Robin an exception. Robin, Brook, and Zoro had all (publicly) begun their own infamous career prior to joining the crew. Just because Brook has been AFK for a while doesn't mean he doesn't have a history.
I never said Brook didn't have a history prior to joining the SHs. Nor did I say that for Robin or Zoro or any other SH.
Having a history does not make you infamous.
Just because Zoro's fame was limited to one ocean and part of another doesn't mean it wasn't fame. People pissed their pants hearing about his name when he was introduced. And Robin? Robin was hated her whole life everywhere she went, by common folk and pirate alike. People (Arabasta) were shocked at the news of her publicly joining Luffy's crew. I will grant you that Franky was thought dead and was only known as a criminal to the World Government, but that doesn't change the fact that his criminal and professional career had started long before joining the Strawhat crew. I mean, I really don't understand how or why this whole "the world sees them all as underdogs" even exists, as if the World Government has no explanation for giving people bounties. Brook, Robin, and Franky all had bounties when they joined, even if Franky's was acquired while working with the crew.
This is why I said all infamy for every person isn't equal. I never said any of the SHs didn't have some level of infamy before joining the SHs.
I'll say it this way. The Saints were underdogs against the Colts in the Superbowl. That doesn't mean the Saints didn't already have some level of fame for their accomplishments in the regular season or past season. It didn't change the fact that they were underdogs and that the Colts who already won a Superbowl were way more favored/famous(i.e. infamous for this argument).
There's a difference when it comes to infamy between pirate hunter Zoro and Whitebeard, Moria, and fuck even Rockstar. That has nothing to do with the higher level of infamy the latter posesses in comparison to the SHs.
Again, you didn't really specify. In fact, "underdog type" and "unknown/rookie" imply you are comparing with the infamy a Warlord would have, not strictly the infamy two Warlords would have, so I don't see how this changes anything… or is relevant at all.
If you had read the quotes I quoted you would've known what I was talking about and I wouldn't need to explain and specify everything for you.
Go read Croy's post where he says he thinks there's a chance for 2 shichibukai not being a big deal since BB has legends. Keep in mind Urogue did clarify what the exact argument was about after my response because I thought it was a different argument.
My overall point was that as time has gone on, we have had people with longer and more notorious histories behind them. Both public, private, and "forgotten".
O…..kay
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Her connection to Luffy isn't really noticed at all. She makes it clear to the fodder marines that she considers all men as an enemy and attacks without discretion. This seems somewhat in line with her country's policy and Sengoku could easily just excuse her actions based on that.
A good point I have never seen mentioned before.
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Regardless of the whether they took note or plan to report what she did you are neglecting the fact that they don't know why she was fighting both sides. Her connection to Luffy isn't really noticed at all. She makes it clear to the fodder marines that she considers all men as an enemy and attacks without discretion. This seems somewhat in line with her country's policy and Sengoku could easily just excuse her actions based on that. After all, if the Shichibukai still exist after this war Sengoku is probably going to need her.
Betrayal is betrayal and this line of thought is no different than the thought that if Hancock joined the SH then her island would face a Buster Call, but you're arguing that because they don't know why she did it that they'll just excuse her wrecking Pacifista's and attacking marine officers, if that were the case then they should just as easily excuse anything since she fulfilled her end of the bargain by answering her summons. But as it stands she made direct actions to impede the marines. The credibility of the threat of her status being revoked sorta rests on the marines punishing such actions.
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My reasoning is that the plot element of Luffy being immune to Hancock's charm kinda becomes irrelevant if she's chilling in AL and Luffy's with his crew in the NW, because in that case when is his immunity to her charms ever going to come up again? We already know he's special and Mihawk verbalized his ability to attract people, etc.
Well, that's not really how I meant it at all. It could have plot relevance without pertaining directly to Luffy. There is still time, as she's still in the thick of things. It could be something 10 chapters from now, for all we know.
Also, as far as Luffy is concerned, his immunity is important to show we she will bear his children. :ninja:
again it comes back me just trying to figure out a reason for Oda bothering with it when he could've just avoided the scenario, why have Hancock seemingly be threatened by Smoker just to charm the situation away when her charm abilities are already seemingly established?
Suspense?
How/why would she even be able to become a strong warrior if she can avoid all conflict with a pose?
Because she's shown (in this war, specifically) that she doesn't always rely on that. Of course she could have turned the initial fodder batch to stone with her charm ability (I hope you can agree to that much), but she chose to go another route.
Even if she couldn't, she didn't even bother to try. Considering her shock with Luffy's immunity, she should have at least believed that she could do it.
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A good point I have never seen mentioned before.
Indeed it is.
Either scenario that occurs I don't see her joining.
Did somebody say because Oda killed Ace he might slaughter all of the AL amazons just so Hancock could join? or imply it?
C'mon son.
@AGOG:This argument is already won for you… It's 100% true that Oda isn't adding any legend or some ultra powerful person to the crew.
Too bad I don't have your ability to prove it to them.
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This post is deleted!
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most people fail to point out that she also attacked pirates
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Indeed it is.
Either scenario that occurs I don't see her joining.
Did somebody say because Oda killed Ace he might slaughter all of the AL amazons just so Hancock could join? or imply it?
C'mon son.
More like: Most of us thought that "Oda couldn't possibly kill Ace" most of us think that Smoker's threat was bullshit cuz "Oda would never destory AL" and I'm like "Maybe that threat is actually legit and shouldn't be brushed under the rug as away to induce false suspense" btw love how fast you went from seeing my logic to belittling it, but let me point out a flaw with the counter argument, if Hancock has such invincible charm powers then she can join the SH anyway and just take a trip to MHQ and charm Sengoku before he issues the Buster Call, ya know since Luffy's the only one with the special immunity meaning of course that Smoker, Sengoku, and Sentoumaru are all vulnerable. She'll just have to pose for Sengoku.
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if that were the case then they should just as easily excuse anything since she fulfilled her end of the bargain by answering her summons.
Like I said Jimbei still had a chance to keep his title after rampaging on marines and getting locked up. Sengoku's "So this is your final answer Jimbei" at least implies that imo and ofcourse Doflamingo has free reign to make higher ranking marines choke themselves with no reprimand or punishment we know of.
I will say it would be a completely different argument had Hancock killed marines to save Luffy. All we've seen are vague and ambiguous haki/Df attacks and her hitting a pacifista.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Like I said Jimbei still had a chance to keep his title after rampaging on marines and getting locked up. Sengoku's "So this is your final answer Jimbei" at least implies that imo and ofcourse Doflamingo has free reign to make higher ranking marines choke themselves with no reprimand or punishment we know of.
I will say it would be a completely different argument had Hancock killed marines to save Luffy. All we've seen are vague and ambiguous haki/Df attacks and her hitting a pacifista.
How does that change anything? She went out of her way to stop Smoker from apprehending Luffy, then she proceeded to further prevent him from pursuing Luffy, then she went on and destroyed multiple Pacifistas, but that's cool as long as she didn't kill fodder marines for Luffy?
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Why are they even thinking that Oda is making this a competition anyway?
People, check it out…
Luffy wants Pirate King
Zoro wants Number One SwordsmanThe rest, they don't want to go that high... Remember Usopp saying that, well, it's fact.
BB's got a crew full of people that are basically GODLY, they've been that way since like AGES AGO...
Luffy's a darn rookie... He's basically been on a voyage in the GL for like 2 months, and probably 3~4 months altogether...
They AREN'T supposed to be the best through the manga at only the half way point... It's not like Roger KILLED all of Shiki at the end, they lucked out as Luffy will luck out.
Do understand how the manga is playing out: Luffy is heading towards Raftel and not trying to conquer stuff... BB may be heading there as well, but he is likely to fight far less than Luffy up to that point. So, he's not going to grow and he has BARELY any room at all to grow.
Luffy's crew has like infinite potential to grow in power and since they are so weak and frail looking, their opponents look down on them and basically end up giving the group some advantage that leads to them winning in the end.
They aren't expected to take over the world, they're expected to accomplish the dreams they set out to accomplish.
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More like: "Most of us thought that Oda couldn't possibly kill Ace" most of us think that Smoker's threat was bullshit cuz Oda would never destory AL and I'm like "Maybe that threat is actually legit and shouldn't be brushed under the rug" btw love how fast you went from seeing my logic to belittling it, but let me point out a flaw with the counter argument, if Hancock has such invincible charm powers then she can join the SH anyway and just take a trip to MHQ and charm Sengoku before he issues the Buster Call, ya know since Luffy's the only one with the special immunity meaning of course that Smoker, Sengoku, and Sentoumaru are all vulnerable. She'll just have to pose for Sengoku.
Nah, I can see Oda having the marines threaten a buster call and even do a buster call but they wouldn't all die. they'd probably be all saved by Luffy and crew along with some more help. I can't jump to that just cuz Ace died(since everything pointed to him dying anyway and it was done very well).
As much as I'd like the change in Oda to jump on the level of Muria or Oku as far as story telling and killing I can't consider he'd wipe out an entire country of women just so one character can go through some bullshit character development in order for her to join.
I don't even understand you Hancock supporters. You guys already love to shove the fact that she has a tragic past now you're willing to kill off thousands of ppl just to release her from her obligation of ruling a country? Just to repeat myself if Oda does do that Hancock dies with them.
The whole situation of Luffy just losing his brother and then Hancock losing all of her followers and family leading her to ask to join or Luffy to ask is just heinous to me.
@HaxeyeMihawk:How does that change anything? She went out of her way to stop Smoker from apprehending Luffy, then she proceeded to further prevent him from pursuing Luffy, then she went on and destroyed multiple Pacifistas, but that's cool as long as she didn't kill fodder marines for Luffy?
Not just fodder marines anybody. If she had killed Smoker or Sentomaru for seeing her betray the WG then I could see some worth in this argument.
I've also mentioned my other possible reason for why Oda did that with Hancock. I quoted you but maybe you didn't see it.
When Dofla loses his title then sure I can see it happening to Hancock.
And my main point is she'll most likely be given another chance like Jimbei would've gotten.
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Betrayal is betrayal and this line of thought is no different than the thought that if Hancock joined the SH then her island would face a Buster Call, but you're arguing that because they don't know why she did it that they'll just excuse her wrecking Pacifista's and attacking marine officers, if that were the case then they should just as easily excuse anything since she fulfilled her end of the bargain by answering her summons. But as it stands she made direct actions to impede the marines. The credibility of the threat of her status being revoked sorta rests on the marines punishing such actions.
This isn't a simple matter of betrayal. While it's true that she destroyed a number or pacifistas and fought with marines she also did her fair share against the pirates. Her attitude of "all men are the enemy" is not something someone like Sengoku wouldn't already be more than aware of. As he chose to have her participate despite that he's really in no position to complain about the results.
So long as the Marines remain unaware of the fact that Hancock was purposely working against them she can't be considered a traitor. I'm sure they will all agree that she's an annoying bitch, but her betrayal has yet to be uncovered.
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Though it remains the fact that if the person you loved was incapacitated as Luffy is now you would try to do whatever is in your power to aid him.
Her panel and comments make it seem like she is running over to help Luffy
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I also learned a long time ago not to pay attention to people who extrapolate complex theories because all it succeeds in doing is confusing themselves and being wrong. People will say crazy stuff and it's not really my problem if they're interpreting things wrong.
Wise words we should all live by
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Nah, I can see Oda having the marines threaten a buster call and even do a buster call but they wouldn't all die. they'd probably be all saved by Luffy and crew along with some more help. I can't jump to that just cuz Ace died(since everything pointed to him dying anyway and it was done very well).
As much as I'd like the change in Oda to jump on the level of Muria or Oku as far as story telling and killing I can't consider he'd wipe out an entire country of women just so one character can go through some bullshit character development in order for her to join.
I don't even understand you Hancock supporters already love to shove the fact that she has a tragic past now you're willing to kill off thousands of ppl just to release her from her obligation of ruling a country? Just to repeat myself if Oda does do that Hancock dies with them.
The whole situation of Luffy just losing his brother and then Hancock losing all of her followers and family leading her to ask to join or Luffy to ask is just heinous to me.
Kill them to release her from her obligation? No (Hell she could probably give the title to one of her sisters). The importance of the killing would be to avoid showing us another dose of PIS on the behalf of the marines when they are just getting on a roll and about to come from a war after doing in both Ace and WB. I mean really Oda having two scenes of two different unrelated non fodder marines noting Hancock' s actions just to turn around and render them meaningless is kinda silly, one scene to give us some faux suspense would've done the job, two starts seeming like something may come of this.
