In which year did we get the lowest amounts of Chapters?
This year felt exceptionally low due to the breaks
Chapter 1090: Kizaru
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@trollatron786 This one, if I'm not mistaken.
4-week break, extra break this week, plus some unfortunate interactions between regular breaks and Jump Breaks. Year started with Ch 1071, and probably will end with 1103, so 33 chapters. If we don't get any extra breaks, that is.
If I'm not mistaken, we only got the regular 3-chapters-per-1-break schedule thrice this whole year so far, in February, March and May.
It also doesn't help that we stayed away from the crew for over four months.
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Catching up with this thread has been baffling. I distinctly remember people pointing out how weird it was that Jinbe barely reacted to learning that Vegapunk had made a Lunarian Child Soldier Clone out of himself and also how people were saying that "there's no time to confront VP right now, Lucci needs to be stopped by Nika so everyone can escape to the Labophase, ethics will surely come up later".
And now suddenly there wasn't any time for that? Jinbe just laughs at a mini Hancock being enslaved to the original's feelings when his captain did what he did to free all those slaves? Nami and Chopper don't care about child soldiers? Ludicrous.
I guess if Thriller Bark was happening now Chopper would be mostly fine with Hogback disgracing so many corpses? That's actually way less problematic than what Vegapunk has done with the Seraphim.
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@Goukan Hancock is not "enslaved to the original's feelings", she's just a clone. The point about child soldiers is fair, but I guess they're not perceived as children, which is understandable too.
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If I had to pick only one major criticism to the writing of post timeskip One Piece that rises above all the others, I think it would be characters almost never acting coherently with their previously established characterization, always following instead the path of less resistance for the plot to stay on tracks and the planned events to happen.
So before this we had for example Luffy declaring he wanted to take the emperors down and taking territories while pre-time skip he made a big declaration in front of an approving Rayleigh that he didn't want to dominate on anybody and just wanted the most freedom, or the crew accepting and going along the Big mom assassination plan, or the famine in Wano never being a major point for Sanji, only because he already had his spotlight, or Kid and Law, who had dick measuring consests with Luffy on stuff like dodging fire blasts or jumping from waterfalls, just willingly step aside for Luffy to fight the big boss all on his own, and now all this we just discussed.
It makes incredibly hard to care for any of these characters because it breaks the illusion of them being actual people one can relate to, instead exposing them as mere plot devices for the intended thing to happen.
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@Alfiere said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
If I had to pick only one major criticism to the writing of post timeskip One Piece that rises above all the others, I think it would be characters almost never acting coherently with their previously established characterization, always following instead the path of less resistance for the plot to stay on tracks and the planned events to happen.
So before this we had for example Luffy declaring he wanted to take the emperors down and taking territories while pre-time skip he made a big declaration in front of an approving Rayleigh that he didn't want to dominate on anybody and just wanted the most freedom, or the crew accepting and going along the Big mom assassination plan, or the famine in Wano never being a major point for Sanji, only because he already had his spotlight, or Kid and Law, who had dick measuring consests with Luffy on stuff like dodging fire blasts or jumping from waterfalls, just willingly step aside for Luffy to fight the big boss all on his own, and now all this we just discussed.
It makes incredibly hard to care for any of these characters because it breaks the illusion of them being actual people.one can relate to and exposes them as simply plot devices for the intended thing to happen.
Those are pretty minor points, and in somecases don't contradict prior charcterization. Sure Luffy wants to have the most freedom, but turns out that when the Emperors restrain freedom, you have to take them down and protect your territories so they also don't get freedom-restricted. If anything, pre-timeskip Luffy was rather naive as he didn't know how the New World functioned, but his desire for ultimate freedom is still there, Nika being the culmination of it.
And it's not like any of the things you mentioned weren't acknowledged at all. Sanji DID get angry after learning about the SMILE, but it's not like you can dedicate a whole chapter about his reactions since there are many other characters that have their own thoughts about it as well. Sanji for example did step up when Page One started rampaging on food stands because he felt responsible for it, so that's enough of a moment for him.
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The Water7/Enies Lobby saga was first and foremost about Robin's tragedy, establishing the world government as the big evil villain, the greatest obstacle on our heroes' path, and introducing the massive lore connected to all that.
And yet there was plenty of time to devote to Usopp's personal drama about being robbed first and losing the merry immediately after. It was a highly irrational and childish reaction on his part, and it threw a big wrench in the gears of the crew, complicating things for them, but an extremely believable and moving one for sure and it just kept going on along to the main plot bringing about a fundamental growth for the character Usopp and highlighting all the other crew members' feelings about his action. Meanwhile we also got the Franky storyline and even a bit of Chopper's.
So there isn't really any reason for not devoting not one chapter, but an entire subplot to Sanji dealing with the hunger in Wano because that's what I'm expecting from Sanji on a famined island after 20+ years of following his adventures. İf it's missing, anyone who cares about the character is bound to be disappointed.
Same goes with Jimbe, who is a very bland and overall badly written character, but at least always made clear one thing and that is disliking slavery, so i would expect there being a giant note in front of Oda's desk saying "chubby fish is not cool with there being a child soldier clone of him, or of anyone for that matter". İt clearly isn't there and that denotes nothing but lack of a care that was once there. -
@Alfiere said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
The Water7/Enies Lobby saga was first and foremost about Robin's tragedy, establishing the world government as the big evil villain, the greatest obstacle on our heroes' path, and introducing the massive lore connected to all that.
And yet there was plenty of time to devote to Usopp's personal drama about being robbed first and losing the merry immediately after. It was a highly irrational and childish reaction on his part, and it threw a big wrench in the gears of the crew, complicating things for them, but an extremely believable and moving one for sure and it just kept going on along to the main plot bringing about a fundamental growth for the character Usopp and highlighting all the other crew members' feelings about his action. Meanwhile we also got the Franky storyline and even a bit of Chopper's.
So there isn't really any reason for not devoting not one chapter, but an entire subplot to Sanji dealing with the hunger in Wano because that's what I'm expecting from Sanji on a famined island after 20+ years of following his adventures. İf it's missing, anyone who cares about the character is bound to be disappointed.
Same goes with Jimbe, who is a very bland and overall badly written character, but at least always made clear one thing and that is disliking slavery, so i would expect there being a giant note in front of Oda's desk saying "chubby fish is not cool with there being a child soldier clone of him, or of anyone for that matter". İt clearly isn't there and that denotes nothing but lack of a care that was once there.The Water7-Enies Lobby saga is also one of the longest stories in the series, with nearly 130 chapters of content. Now imagine doing that when you have several more characters, primary and secondary. Corners have to be cut.
Never mind that according to Oda, Water 7 was originally about Merry/Usopp and Franky. Robin's subplot was entirely non-planned (or at least was not planned to be tackled there) and even Lucci wasn't meant to be an antagonist until he suddenly was.
Essentially, by doing exactly what you suggested, we ended up with a massive story that rivals Wano in lenght, but with 1/5 of the characters.
And you still have people clamoring for an 11th Strawhat.
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Break after 1091 too...
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@Bounty195 Man, Oda saying that these breaks are because of the Live Action was really bad marketing, cause it makes me dislike it despite being excited before...
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Oda recently underwent surgery, so it's be expected that he still needs to take it slow, Live-Action or not.
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@Bounty195 said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
Break after 1091 too...
Man, this year has sucked balls hard regarding chapter release schedule.
I know, I know, there are reasons and such. But, for me, who wasn't too thrilled about the cutaways, there was exactly one chapter updating Egghead since March... It feels the story is taking forever to move forward.
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@Bounty195 Source on this? We usually wouldn't know until first spoilers for the chapter drops. I know Monday's Jump has leaked already, but it's not like them to announce a series will be off the week after next unless it's a longterm hiatus.
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@Captain-M this is running around the spoiler community. Guys like Emunopla have relayed it as well, and, while Redon didn’t say anything on the matter, he did post his first gif hint, which indicates some people have access to the chapter already.
So, the break is not 100% confirmed, but it’s very likely true.
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@Deicide Ah dang. Well thanks for the info. Hopefully the last one before we get back on the normal schedule...
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I'm sorry but Jinbei's characterization was pretty bad in relative to everyone else (well except Usopp). His backstory had his own spotlight taken by Fisher Tiger and Otohime and you never felt that he was the ONE that was core and center for the dream of fishman equality. He also hasn't done much to push that dream throughout his years as a pirate/shichibukai either. I don't feel any agency from him compared to everyone else. Him and Fisher had a bond but never one that felt as exclusive as say Law Corazon, Nami Bellemere, Franky and Tom either. He doesn't do much for a character and even his quirks came later when Oda felt like he had to introduce them to make him feel more like a straw hat. Which is really to say he felt the least organic addition to me. I like him as a character and has found him a really cool one since Impel Down (I was young and was full of myself that he would join for sure) but as the years passed I just wished he would have been better served as an alliance member.
If you've played any JRPGs, his the old man/middle aged character that joins the party late game that you have respect for because you've seen him around and know he is a cool guy but ultimately is not that emotionally invested in him to use him except for harder boss fights where you need his stats.
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I read about the break after 1091...
I have already written everything about this issue here in the forums, so I won't repeat myself again.
I love Oda and his masterpiece and I wish him good health and a great life. -
I hope after break we got 3 chapter in row 🥱
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@zeltrax225 said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
I'm sorry but Jinbei's characterization was pretty bad in relative to everyone else (well except Usopp). His backstory had his own spotlight taken by Fisher Tiger and Otohime and you never felt that he was the ONE that was core and center for the dream of fishman equality. He also hasn't done much to push that dream throughout his years as a pirate/shichibukai either. I don't feel any agency from him compared to everyone else. Him and Fisher had a bond but never one that felt as exclusive as say Law Corazon, Nami Bellemere, Franky and Tom either. He doesn't do much for a character and even his quirks came later when Oda felt like he had to introduce them to make him feel more like a straw hat. Which is really to say he felt the least organic addition to me. I like him as a character and has found him a really cool one since Impel Down (I was young and was full of myself that he would join for sure) but as the years passed I just wished he would have been better served as an alliance member.
If you've played any JRPGs, his the old man/middle aged character that joins the party late game that you have respect for because you've seen him around and know he is a cool guy but ultimately is not that emotionally invested in him to use him except for harder boss fights where you need his stats.
I wouldn't call it bad characterization, but I agree it definietely isn't "strawhatish", and he definietely felt like a secondary character in the Otohime/Tiger flashback. Still kinda hope there is a second flashback hidden behind this scar or that he's meant to be used for "death of a straw hat" scenario.
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I disagree with the notion that Jinbei's characterization was poorly handled because it didn't get the typical Strawhat procedure.
His was just done better. From Marineford where he had to manage Luffy to Fishman Island where he bounces off the rest of the crew and WCI arc where he has to blance other crews with his own allegiance. His skillset, personality, interactions, and disposition were given so many different scenarios to be displayed and Oda nailed it.
I can't name 3 other crewmate that received this before officially joining. It makes sense that after Sabaody, anyone joining would require a tremendous amount of an "audition" as a character. Well versed with who is who in the world, he can mediate with individuals, amongst the crew, and with other crews. He knows who he prioritizes and respectfully lets the other party know in their face with honor.
The Tiger/Otohime story emphasizes even more why Jinbe was able to remind Luffy of what he still had after losing Ace and being outclassed in the war. The Nami situation was intense and he showed how he takes things straight up and learns from his mistakes. Trying to steal back Brook from BM was great to show he isn't 1 dimensional.
There just isn't another crewmate that got ran through the wringer like Jinbe. Being before BM with their backs against the wall, intense Nami situation, the war. Just because it wasn't exactly like the rest, doesn't make it poor. This is coming from someone who rather not have anyone after Brook too.
Those are the characters that inspire what Oda had already displayed in the war for Jinbe and going forward. I see no issue with them being the focus over him.
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What is the official reason for this coming break?
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@blue-san Probably last-minute Live Action stuff. Oda did say his schedule would be chaotic until the Live Action debut back in Chapter 1089.
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He did. And he is probably giving it his all to help and support the netflix team and trying to make this a success.
Painful but I get it
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@Alfiere said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
So there isn't really any reason for not devoting not one chapter, but an entire subplot to Sanji dealing with the hunger in Wano because that's what I'm expecting from Sanji on a famined island after 20+ years of following his adventures. İf it's missing, anyone who cares about the character is bound to be disappointed.
Please do not speak for other fans like that. For one, Sanji already had his subplot (Germa suit which was relevant for both Sanji as a character and for the events of Wano's act 2 and 3), and he saw some other action such as rescuing Otoko with Zoro as well. In order to read and understand this series well enough, you should start by knowing that Sanji does not have a monopoly on food-related matters. We've seen a ton of affection regarding the famine - which includes the victims themselves, the citizens of Wano, because what would you know, the strawhats are not obligated to be the most victimized or concerned by all the nonsense that plagues the lands they visit. Luffy, Zoro and Tama covered the famine thing well enough in the first 10 chapters or so. And the average reader will know for themselves that the other SHs are made aware of the circumstances at some point and feel bad for the land of Wano. The reader doesn't need Oda keeping a checklist of every strawhat like "oh did I give Usopp a panel of him being sickened by Kaido's treatment of this country, did I give Sanji at least two chapters of him being scandalized about the food distribution?"
I'm going to talk about the seraphim down below, but that is the same thing really. No need to see ten straw hats bring up the issue when, even before they came across S-Shark for the first time, we could already apprehend a possible redundancy, what with SEVEN warlords needing to meet and react to their clone and express some doubt, Hancock already did that btw.We also had what, 15 chapters of Sanji making an ambitious cake and ravishing an Emperor with it just 20 chapters before Wano started and hit us with the famine plot right away. Or at the beginning of WCI, when he had a fight with his brothers over them wasting food and beating up a maid over it. Plus Luffy wanting to be fed by him no matter what. etc... No need to be redundant with the food stuff when it has never been any more of a priority for his character than several of his other traits. Besides, Wano was already long enough as is lol.
Regarding the seraphim, a lot of the talk about them is either saved for downtime later, if/when Vegapunk can give more details about them to the SHs; or a lot of it is rightfully offscreened, because Jinbei emitting concerns over such a thing would be out of character in the first place (unless only HE was cloned, but he could pretty much see it was a warlord thing), but even if he did have to bring it up to Vegapunk, it's easy to assume the conversation would be this:
Jinbei: boi what's up with that?
Vegapunk: oh, WG commissioned this new form of pacifista to replace the warlords, but this technology is in ITS LITERAL INFANCY and cannot recreate fully grown, superpowerful adults yet
Jinbei: makes sense, ok chiefand that's it. Not even worth a page. Egghead has been super meaty in terms of exposition and especially the tech stuff. We already know the concept of the seraphim. We already saw one warlord react. We already know Vegapunk doesn't produce weapons on his own (whether from Dragon's testimony or Germa cover story). We already know that the WG ordered the seraphim's creation and we've known for hundreds of chapters now that the WG sucks. The reader can figure the extent of Vegapunk's guilt (if any) for themselves with all that info.
The SHs aren't idiots. They don't have to torture themselves over questions that were already answered in implicit, time-saving ways. If Nami really has beef with someone for having a kid Jinbei try to kill her AND she had a breakdown as she hesitated to defend herself (this is actually a worthwhile SH reaction regarding the seraphim topic), then she can take it up to Saturn or whoever she happens to see when they eventually raid the holy land.
We don't know if Vegapunk has really made reprehensible creations OF HIS OWN ACCORD, but the only possibility presented so far was the Kuma modification, robbing him of his agency and whatnot. Bonney rightfully chased him to seek answers and revenge. But now she might understand what was up with that, considering she doesn't even want revenge anymore. Vegapunk at least did feel some guilt for what he did and for not wanting to tell Bonney, so there's that at least.
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@Cockycent you see, this all makes perfect sense to me and you've written about his necessity pretty well. But it's just that to me, necessity. And it would be kind of stupid for me to say it doesn't matter because it sure does matter especially where the plot is going. Alot of this might be nostalgia speaking, but I've always enjoyed when every straw hat is capable of messing around and half the adventure is them going on tangents. You don't always get that with Jinbei and that makes sense because he is a veteran and knows what he is doing. Jinbei brings direction and can always be utilized when even people like Zoro fall into his quirks of getting lost or having a side adventure. Once again, necessity. Everyone can see why Jinbei is useful for situations like that or even beyond (mediation, management). This was why he worked so well in the Marineford war but is also the same reason why I, personally, will like him more as a senior figure and an alliance member.
It really is just my bias speaking because I personally enjoy a party that goes in fresh into situations and gives me a "they started from zero and now they are here" feeling at the end. With Jinbei, I can't exactly say that. This isn't helped by the fact that while he excels at everything you've mentioned, he hasn't shown the same childlike drive (Sanji,Zoro,Usopp,Nami,Chopper) to fulfill a dream nor has he shown to be on this adventure because he has a life purpose that can be accomplished when the journey comes to an "end" (Brook,Franky).
You can say that oh but his purpose and dream is the end of racism/discrimination against the fishman and while that will happen because we know where the plot is going, unlike Robin who has checkpoints that she has shown to have worked towards (Polygephs, and its relation to the One Piece), he just believes strongly it should happen and that's about it.
His flashback also ended with Fisher Tiger stating clearly that the discrimination can only be ended with the next generation. Of course, he meant someone like Luffy and Jinbei would assist him but this also implies that he, like Arlong, has also been jaded and does not strongly believe in that message anymore. This is very realistic and shouldn't be downplayed. And a lot of One Piece is about passing the torch to the younger generation but in this very case, you never really felt like Fisher Tiger passed the torch to Jinbei. Shirahoshi also exist and it is clear what she is in the plot for. She is the next generation that represents fishman who willingly establish bonds with other humans(because of Luffy).
I'm not saying that Jinbei does not represent elements of Shirahoshi or that his dream/purpose is not valid but it can become rather muddled and is not exactly unique and at the foremost of his character. -
@Gear-4-Sauce you are basically confirming what I was saying, that the characters don't react and act accordingly to their personal motives and established psychology, but primarily in the best interest of story efficiency.
Sanji rationalizes that Luffy and Zoro caring for one starving child "has the crew covered" for Wano famine awareness, so he can mind to unrelated stuff. Doesn't matter that getting to the brink of a murderous rage at any hint of food waste has been his thing since day one, his reaction on the matter is surely interchangeable with that of any other strawhat.
Jimbe knows that any problematic aspect of their new friend creating a child soldier clone of him without his knowledge or consent will be almost surely "dealt with down the line" so he can just roll with it for now, no need to annoy the readers, also some other warlord must have already reacted to it, he must have thought.
Everyone knows they are a part of a story, has actually read the storyboard and acts accordingly. -
That is not what I said. Sanji notices the famine on his own and hates it all the same. We're just not shown it because we don't need to see every single individual reacting to everything.
The endgame of that arc is beating Kaido, and that's gonna be a thing no matter what because Law and Luffy wanted it, then Luffy and Momo made an alliance for that as well, and the samurai would've went on their own if they needed just to fulfill that 20-year-old grudge (even if it meant getting themselves killed and not accomplishing shit on their own). Ridding the land of both him and Orochi is the way to end the famine. Takes less effort than Sanji single-handedly running all over the big country to feed every mouth when he's supposed to stay undercover and prepare for the raid in secrecy like everybody else. Yes, that's two weeks of having to stand the sight of famished and empovered victims around him, but those people had it rough for 20 years anyway and salvation was really close by.
And as I (or Oda) said, the blame lies with the WG. The WG is problematic for doing such things without the warlords' consent or knowledge. So why pin it on Vegapunk?
You do know that the blame for the SMILE fruits and other things were pinned on Kaido, Doffy and Caesar. Not the factory workers in either Punk Hazard or Dressrosa.
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@Gear-4-Sauce said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
So why pin it on Vegapunk?
Because he's the one making it all possible. It's not like the WG took one of his inventions and tinkered with it, like with the Mother Flame (presumably). The Seraphim are entirely Vegapunk's creation and are doing what they were created to do.
If, like you said, the SMILE fruits were pinned on Caesar just as much as Doflamingo and Kaido, why wouldn't Vegapunk's creation not be Vegapunk's responsibility just as much as the Government's?
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@Deicide said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
@Gear-4-Sauce said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
So why pin it on Vegapunk?
Because he's the one making it all possible. It's not like the WG took one of his inventions and tinkered with it, like with the Mother Flame (presumably). The Seraphim are entirely Vegapunk's creation and are doing what they were created to do.
If, like you said, the SMILE fruits were pinned on Caesar just as much as Doflamingo and Kaido, why wouldn't Vegapunk's creation not be Vegapunk's responsibility just as much as the Government's?
Because Caesar was free to create whatever he wanted. The SMILE were his pet project alone (we know this because he was already trying to make fake DFs in his time at MADS). Kaido and Doflamingo merely gave him protection and business relevance, while letting Orochi use them as torture tool.
We do not have enough context to say the same of Vegapunk. Again, he is an employed scientist. He can't just do whatever he wants. And it's not like he could just refuse to do things either, considering he was once considered a criminal for, ironically, cloning.
Yeah, he enjoys a lot of his own creations, but it's always due to scientific interest. Nothing like Caesar who is proud of the capabilities of his poison to kill people especifically. The Seraphim in particular have not been used against anyone who is not a criminal or their creators. The issue is more about the general ethics of the practice within a real world's perspective, yet clones are still a very science fiction popular trope that are not inherently considered a sign of evilness.
Context and intent matter here. And I certainly don't want to see the SH suddenly becoming those moral paragons, particularly Nami who was just thinking of stealing diamonds a few chapters ago.
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While I can understand these “meta-level” arguments for why X or Y things weren’t interrogated/got reacted to by a character, they don’t really change how the end result feels to read. Writing isn’t based on a quota system where if a character got (X) level of exposure previously the character has used up their ““points”” and the reader shouldn’t expect them to behave/react as previously. By this rationale it would be totally permissible if Usopp got absolutely nada exposure at Elbaf as long as he’d gotten a subplot of [Z] page length within [Y] chapters of Elbaf.
You can’t use meta-level parameters to calculate your way out of when it’s appropriate for characters to react in a way that reflect their previous characterization. So yeah in terms of Sanji and the Wano famine, Sanji had stuff to do in the prior arc, but there is literally no other character in the entire series with a stronger emotional link to the concept of famine in the series, and when this subject appears on the largest possible scale – Nationwide famine enforced by the villains! – this seems like a no-brainer to expect Sanji to react to. Again, I refuse to believe that if, around chapter 600 or whatever, someone had asked “hypothetically, If the crew visited an island with a countrywide famine enforced by the evil villain, do you think this would somehow be linked to Sanji?” the response would’ve been “Nah, if Luffy is angry about it we shouldn’t expect more”.
And no the fact that Sanji gets mad about food wasting when he is feeding the supposedly regime-loyalist capital, literally the only place in the nation unaffected by the famine, is not an adequate substitute; character writing isn’t making ticks on a clipboard of “We had Sanji involved in [Food related subplot]? That’s the quota met, no space for him reacting to [literal highest possible escalation of a food conflict subplot]”. For petes sake, theres more time allotted to Sanji reacting to bad Skyepan marinade than to the nationwide Wano famine, is it not possible to concede that its fair for people to find this odd? Regardless of whether or not Pageone knocked over a bowl of noodles at the capital soba stand?
These character-specific quirks and reactions are part of the bedrock of the series, of what made the characters endearing to begin with. And said traits can be iterated upon in new, fun ways to provide surprising outcomes, similarly to how Bender from Futurama can have the first dozen jokes about him being childishly callous. Oda once spent several panels to convey Zoro not being able to find his way South despite hanging out with a Southbird, including a whole precious page purely for a good joke about just how lost Zoro was, is this “wasteful” or “unneeded” or whatever? Since we’ve revisited Zoros poor sense of direction multiple times over the course of the series?
If we can get a horndog reaction from Sanji each and every time he spots someone without an Y chromosome, why can't he have more of a reaction when the subject of "starvation" appears every once in a blue moon?And even if you find something like Luffys trait of absolutely not having when people mistreat their crewmates “repetitive” because it gets play several times in the series, it also makes him a strongly defined consistent character. It helps making Luffy feel like Luffy when you have an idea how he’d react to things, and he then delivers, as opposed to if they came across a crewmate-abusing villain and Luffy didn’t give a shit.
I mean, this chapter we get Nami having an angry reaction on Robins behalf due to York evoking the destruction of Ohara, and it’s a neat little character moment that people responded positively to and which builds on pre-established bonds and traits, showcasing the empathy and morality of the characters in a way that frames Nami as more righteous than the villainous York
But when the question is raised of of the Crew, with their history of objecting to child endangerment, unethical experimentation and robbing of free will, not having any sort reaction to the Seraphim suddenly oh no theres no time for that that isn’t necessary, that would just get in the way, we can surmise it ourselves between the lines it just isn’t possible in any way whatsoever to have included and also its not something we should care about to begin with? Come on.
No one is complaining that we get to see Luffy and Usopp excited about Elbaf again, or that we saw a humorous beat of Franky surprising Vegapunk by saying the Sunny is cola powered, but those beats are supremely redundant, cuttable, predictable, "unnecessary". Yet I fully suspect that if Luffy and Usopp had had no reaction at all to learning Elbaf was the next destination, the arguments would have been “We already know they’re excited, we Didn’t Need to see, Just No time for them to react” etc.And this argument is just so incredibly generic and all purpose, you can slot it into any scenario, any discussion of something getting glossed over that should be a bigger deal to the characters. Until recently the all-purpose criticism dismissal was always that we should “wait and see” – wait for the Minks to get more exposure in Wano, wait for Kaidous Flashback, wait for Franky to shine at Egghead wait for Usopp to shine at Elbaf, but now the argument seems to be “we didn’t need to see that” if some element is depicted as lacking.
You could have the crew go to No Cartography, Orphans or Tangerines Allowed island, and if someone stated that it was weird that Nami had nothing to do and no real reaction to anything you could wheel out this argument; “Nami got X amount of paneltime in the preceding arc, you shouldn’t expect her to be a fixture of the No Cartography Orphans or Tangerines arc. It’s enough that Sanji was mad about Tangerines being absent. We know she likes children, we didn’t need to see it again”.And like if you personally don’t care about seeing pre-established character traits enforced on-panel, of Luffy and Usopp excited about Elbaf again, or seeing Chopper get mad at multiple mad scientists, or about seeing Sanji take a stand against starvation or Nami against child endangerment more than “necessary”, that’s fine, but the story is explicitly engineered to get readers to care about such things, and so its fair for people to point out if their absence is felt.
If Oda will play the card of having Straw Hat characters reacting to the endangerment of children, or cloning, treating others purely as battle assets, robbing someone of free will etc then expecting actual on-panel followthrough on this regarding the seraphim is not some absurd notion, some unrealistic expectation to have. When Mr 3 meets Crocodile again at impel down he reacts in a way that reflects their prior relationship, but when the crew, with their entire backlog of personal principles and moral stances and reactions meet the seraphim people are unreasonable for expecting any sort of reaction or interrogation? Not even a tiny little bit?
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I didn't read all that. You're so pressed to have the last word that you started comparing Usopp's legitimate focus with the giants (which he IS getting once we get to Elbaf) to Sanji needing to react to everything food-related, him over everyone else, when that's neither meaningful nor essential. I can't even fathom how such a subplot would work in Wano. Orochi had spies everywhere, and Sanji already drew a LOT of attention and trouble to himself due to cooking soba in the capital, the one spot where the people of Wano aren't even that famished. Forget him trying to fix famine in every corner of the land. Again, simply getting rid of Kaido is a safer and quicker way to achieve that. Luffy was rightfully disgusted at the famine and kept reminding Kaido, even in the final pages of their fight, that he was gonna make him fly outta Wano to make people never starve again. So no need for Sanji to be a whole 1:1 clone of Luffy in that regard, with the exact same motivations and irritation. Waste of panels and on-screen developments.
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If you didn't read it, your reply holds little merit.
It's hard not to agree with all, or at least most of the points for anyone who got hooked on OP precisely because of main characters and their bonds and interactions.
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Fixed the start of the post, the fact that I decided to write Square brackets around X really screwed me over
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All I see is people being pressed about the straw hats not reacting to the famine and/or Seraphim when, not only they actually reacted to both of those things, they also react to all sorts of other things and then have even more interactions between them during each of these arcs. Perhaps if you suggested something worthwhile in relation to the Seraphim, but the only argument that's brought up somehow is "Vegapunk is problematic and needs to be called out by the SHs" even though the story tells you otherwise. It is as if you'd be pressed for Sabo to pin the blame at all costs on Vegapunk for the destruction of Lulusia and/or the creation of the Mother Flame, when Dragon, Vegapunk himself, and surely other elements in the story show pretty clearly that none of that was his intention nor part of his interests.
Both the MF and the Seraphim were commissionned (well, ordered, really) by the WG or Imu to do as they please with them. Vegapunk had no choice but to comply. Dragon's been up to his own devices (sweating on Iva's island) so it's not like Vega had an out all this time to escape the lack of funds the WG provides him for his own research. He hasn't had a strong revolutionary leader OR an emperor of the sea that just happened to fall on his island, that could conveniently kidnap him and get him to a safe place, away from the forced production of war weapons and the eventual assassination attempts on his life, until today, that is.
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@Gear-4-Sauce
Usopps dream is about being brave, Sanjis dream and backstory are both explicitly cooking related, even his second backstory put his desire to be a cook and help others as a pivotal moment, and tried selling him as the epitome of kindnessAnd to clarify regarding Wano, if you are operating from a "The story could in no way have been written in a way to accomodate Sanji having a larger reaction to the Wano famine than a single-panel scowl also it would be a waste of time anyway" perspective, then any discussion on this subject is pointless. The story could've been written in infinite ways. At its most thuddingly efficient, Oda had a literal mink army get into the "impregnable" Wano and walk around unimpeded because it served the plot, he had Sanji and pals set up a food stand in the heart of enemy territory with no disguises whatsoever because it served the plot.
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@Daz said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
Nationwide famine enforced by the villains!
This actually bothers me. Who are "the villains" in that case? Are we talking about Kaido or the Beast Pirates in general? Given that Wano was a battle-centric arc where all Strawhats should have had a high stakes decisive battle (but that's another can of worms), the main perpretrator of that famine should be the one who at the end fights the Strawhat who is emotionally affected the most by it.
Assuming that Sanji would be that person and therefore deal with the famine subplot I would assume that the famine should be mostly exist due to Queen's influence, that is, Queen could be the driving force behind the food distribution. That way it would have added some additional interpersonal conflict into the final battle. Also it could affect the battle: For example, later on Queen could consume some special food, made from the ingredients which were taken away from the Wanonese, and gain quite some random weird extra abilities because that's just the way how it worked back then for the dinosaurs.
I'm not saying that's the only way it can be written. Of course not. But I'm just missing these proper interpersonal drama beats that elevate the stakes of these battles from the generic mindless powerlevel-based battles which only rely on external conflict. Why couldn't the famine just deliver some meat for actual interpersonal conflict for Sanji (or whoever from the Strawhats is the one affected the most by the famine)?
Basically none the Strawhats vs. Beast Pirates had these interpersonal conflicts. And in some cases, like the racism in Jinbe vs. Who's Who, it's just so terribly executed. Like the sole purpose of that fight just was to drop the name Nika - because Nika is soooo awesome and just think how awesome the payoff will be when Luffy turns out to BE Nika.
Of course, the pinnacle of lacking interpersonal conflict is Luffy vs. Kaido where the whole motivation for a lot of characters (why the borders were closed) was completely gated away to the reader by prophecy stuff and only revealed to the reader AFTER Kaido's defeat. Instead at the end of the battle we got that completely disjointed flashback which still lets me baffled whether we are supposed to hate Kaido or actually feel sympathy for him.
That said, it's perfectly fine to not be satisfied with how the famine is handled, especially regarding Sanji and the interpersonal drama revolved around him.
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I think with Sanji, Oda kind of pigeonholed his vision into his narrative arc for Onigashima to be his identity crisis and his newfound powers. So either he completely overlooked the fact that he is in a country with a nationwide famine (resulting to a parent killing their own child) or that he noticed that discrepancy but had already penned down the Queen and Sanji's conflict in his head. I personally thought that some good points were raised and in hindsight, his narrative arc would have more character weight to it if he were to confront and defeat the person that was the primary cause of the famine. However, that would mean that, because he is ALSO in conflict with the use of his new powers, his narrative arc then would be weighted down by a little too much compared to the other crew members involved. I think it can be a valid point when you are handling a large cast of characters and don't want to do that for a myriad of reasons. But it is also equally valid to call it out as bad planning because there is a certain way to work around it without sacrificing characterization. Characters feel more like a variable and plot devices which is really something that One Piece has been insufferable for since the time skip.
I've said it and I'll say it again, Wano was not a good arc. Zoro being the one instead of Sanji reacting to the red bean soup wastage, Carrot being shelved despite everything signaling a bigger role before the ship landed on Wano, Yamato having so much potential but ultimately just exist, the Samurais being severely underutilized, the Flying six being a letdown, bullshit fake out deaths, bullshit actual deaths, a terrible, terrible handling of the companion pieces (Kinemon and Momo), Hiyori's handling, Zoro's non-existent "this is his arc" bullshit, and there are so, so many problems with the arc that showed Oda at both his best and his worst. People keep going on and on about how peak One Piece is because the world is so big and there are so many characters and I keep saying the same thing over and over again that it is the series biggest strength but also biggest weakness. Wano DIDN'T even need that huge of a cast. No, seriously. And I shudder to think about how a much, much larger cast is going to be handled in the end game.
Regarding the Sanji thing, I'm not defending the writing whatsoever but since the famine is a nationwide tragedy and Luffy is the main character, it stands to reason that Oda wants those themes to be the motivation, or at least one of the primary motivations, of Luffy's conflict with Kaido. And this isn't something new either because if we think back to Alabasta where the tragedy was the lack of rain leading to heavy periods of drought, Luffy does bring that up in his conflicts with Crocodile. We can even look towards Dressrosa which does the same thing. His ending line to Doflamingo before defeating him was about how suffocating/enslaved the country is and that defeating him would save the country from that tragedy. So really, it's not something new because for whatever reason, Luffy always has to represent what is wrong with the circumstances of the country before destroying said circumstances. At this point it is predictable and whether we like it or not, he is being written to be the saint/hero/jesus character and that he alone, will scream the moral punchline before absolving the countries of their tragedies.
Sanji isn't even the first because, in Punk Hazard, it would have made so much more sense and created more room for character development had Chopper played a key role in the defeat of Caesar. Had he even shown any sign of introspection or used any of what he encountered to further his dream and beliefs? But not really, because despite his utter hatred for what opposes his very core, he was willing to praise Caesar in an offhand and casual remark for comedic effect. Personally, I'm glad that more people are calling the series out for this but I have long resigned and understood that whatever happens before the time skip serves the crew as a whole (formative years) and whatever happens later exist only to serve Luffy and plot. Oda has made the shift from a plot that has prioritized characterization where there was a lot of heart in it, to a plot where characterization exist as a checklist to tick through because things now have to be "bigger", "grander", and with more character ideals in place.
Unlike post new world where there is a clear central theme to each island/arc, newer ones seem to be muddled with different character motivations (that would have been fine and is an amazing thing to think about, if all of them actually delivered), a bunch of things happening to serve the grander plot, a bunch of things happening that didn't need to happen, Luffy always has to be the one that connects with the damsel/companion piece in distress and god forbide if ANY of the other straw hats have anything to do with the climatic resolution regarding said companion piece, I had no fucking idea what the fuck was the point of Zoro befriending Hiyori even since it doesn't do shit for King's fight and his backstory and his motivations. And in the midst of it, oh wow, look, Oda is doing ANOTHER "world exposition/worldbuilding" instead of making a fight narratively driven again so his whole Lunarian thing stole a huge chunk of the spotlight too.
I can go on and on but honestly, the TLDR of it all is that characters are basically checklists and tropes. And for Oda, he feels like "having more is better" when it really, really isn't if you can't do them justice. I genuinely mean this when I say that we can remove half of the Samurai gang and nothing would've really changed. Having a lot of characters/motivations/plotlines would have been fine if he actually cared to stick the landing instead of changing his mind or forgetting his characters (remember what's his name samurai guy who was hyped up but amounted to doing a whole bunch of nothing? The pompadour hair?) or consistently portray them to be something and then have them turn out to be irrelevant, lackluster, or just to be a "variable ABC" who inevitably only reason to exist is to serve Luffy and his messiah crusade.
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@ARTEMlS said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
@Daz said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
Nationwide famine enforced by the villains!
This actually bothers me. Who are "the villains" in that case? Are we talking about Kaido or the Beast Pirates in general? Given that Wano was a battle-centric arc where all Strawhats should have had a high stakes decisive battle (but that's another can of worms), the main perpretrator of that famine should be the one who at the end fights the Strawhat who is emotionally affected the most by it.
Assuming that Sanji would be that person and therefore deal with the famine subplot I would assume that the famine should be mostly exist due to Queen's influence, that is, Queen could be the driving force behind the food distribution. That way it would have added some additional interpersonal conflict into the final battle. Also it could affect the battle: For example, later on Queen could consume some special food, made from the ingredients which were taken away from the Wanonese, and gain quite some random weird extra abilities because that's just the way how it worked back then for the dinosaurs.
I'm not saying that's the only way it can be written. Of course not. But I'm just missing these proper interpersonal drama beats that elevate the stakes of these battles from the generic mindless powerlevel-based battles which only rely on external conflict. Why couldn't the famine just deliver some meat for actual interpersonal conflict for Sanji (or whoever from the Strawhats is the one affected the most by the famine)?
Basically none the Strawhats vs. Beast Pirates had these interpersonal conflicts. And in some cases, like the racism in Jinbe vs. Who's Who, it's just so terribly executed. Like the sole purpose of that fight just was to drop the name Nika - because Nika is soooo awesome and just think how awesome the payoff will be when Luffy turns out to BE Nika.
Of course, the pinnacle of lacking interpersonal conflict is Luffy vs. Kaido where the whole motivation for a lot of characters (why the borders were closed) was completely gated away to the reader by prophecy stuff and only revealed to the reader AFTER Kaido's defeat. Instead at the end of the battle we got that completely disjointed flashback which still lets me baffled whether we are supposed to hate Kaido or actually feel sympathy for him.
That said, it's perfectly fine to not be satisfied with how the famine is handled, especially regarding Sanji and the interpersonal drama revolved around him.
The thing is that a lot Wano's food problems were Orochi's responsibility (he's the one who repurposed SMILEs as food), and he simply wasn't a satisfying villain to tackle by the SH (Luffy doesn't even get to meet him). Doesn't help that Kaidou was pretty passive in Act 2.
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@Daz said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
If Oda will play the card of having Straw Hat characters reacting to the endangerment of children, or cloning, treating others purely as battle assets, robbing someone of free will etc then expecting actual on-panel followthrough on this regarding the seraphim is not some absurd notion, some unrealistic expectation to have. When Mr 3 meets Crocodile again at impel down he reacts in a way that reflects their prior relationship, but when the crew, with their entire backlog of personal principles and moral stances and reactions meet the seraphim people are unreasonable for expecting any sort of reaction or interrogation? Not even a tiny little bit?
I think you're giving the SH too much credit. Most of them shouldn't be familiar enough with the technologies behind the Seraphim to be able to form solid opinions on them and the circumstances so far have put them all as enemies. It's difficult to see Nami thinking on the children when one of them was about to kill her with lasers and swimming martial arts.
Humans in general don't react against aggressors with pity, and Nami is supposed to be among the most human of the crew. She had a bigger problem with S-Shark being like Jinbe because Jinbe is her friend and crewmate, but that itself didn't override her instinctive need to fight back and save herself. She is still a thief and pirate after all, and she's not going to act on behalf of weaponized kids that can be used against her or others. She will obviously react differently than when she did at PH, when the giant children begged her to save them.
Oda saying Nami has a soft spot for children and women in a SBS doesn't preclude her from thundering the shit out of Ms. Doublefinger, Kalifa or Ulti, or being ok with Usopp shooting Bao Huang. She's not like Sanji, who's so inhumanely stuck to his chivalry (which has been pointed several times to be abnormal) that he won't raise a finger against enemy women. Having principles does not mean characters need to always act a certain way. Otherwise, Chopper would never fight anyone because that would go against the Hippocratic Oath.
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@zeltrax225 said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
he was willing to praise Caesar in an offhand and casual remark
that was good lol
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It’s telling how much the strawhats have been absent from the story that we think that it’s ok to have Sanji “step back” in Wano because he already had a spotlight in Whole Cake. They should have the spotlight in every arc. Every Strawhat had a “moment” in Skypiea, Alabasta, W7… why not post-timeskip? (Bloated arc, huge cast and time consuming plots, I know, I know…)
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He didn't step back though. So if you really wanted him to suck out the screentime of his fellow SHs even more than he already does in Wano (alongside Luffy and Zoro, and the same can be said for Egghead now) then I suppose it's no problem for me, he's my favorite character after all. Or do you mean to suggest that both he AND the likes of Franky and Usopp need far more presence on screen without cannibalizing each other? Fine, fine, I love those 2 as well. But I don't want to hear the complaints about "bloated arcs" and "time consuming plots" being said in the same breath. Sanji did spend more than 10 chapters baking one (1) cake, and you think he was gonna fix the famine in Wano in a timely measure while everyone else is busy with their own plotline too?
Wano hasn't been lacking in SH interactions or moments, far from that. There has not been a single point post-timeskip where we were famished for Straw Hats relevance (I mean except the long-ass Oden flashback or the 10 chapters away from Egghead, but that makes sense why we don't see the SHs there, though we got color cover spreads at least). When/if we somehow get to that point, then yeah we will complain, but we're not there yet.
In Egghead's case I'm definitely concerned seeing as how the majority of SHs are literally just dicking around even when things get intense around them, but we are given reason to expect contribution from them soon, because no way the monster trio has enough hands to tackle everything the marine fleet can throw at them (including an admiral) AND possibly more threats and surprises such as the Blackbeard pirates or whoever else might show up.
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@Chams-0 said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
It’s telling how much the strawhats have been absent from the story that we think that it’s ok to have Sanji “step back” in Wano because he already had a spotlight in Whole Cake. They should have the spotlight in every arc. Every Strawhat had a “moment” in Skypiea, Alabasta, W7… why not post-timeskip? (Bloated arc, huge cast and time consuming plots, I know, I know…)
I would also add Oda wanting to explore other characters. There's just so much you can do with a main character introduced 25 years ago without it coming off as repetitive. Filler episodes recycle jokes and interactions all the time and people hate them for a reason.
Freshness is important, especially for a weekly work. It's probably why Oda added so much out there stuff to Sanji's backstory (clones, power rangers, nazis) to the point of making him somewhat unrecognizable from that simple cook of a sea-faring restaurant back in East Blue.
And it also might be the reason he didn't focus on Zoro's family as much. in the end, they're just a family of swordies swording their way around, so there's little interesting territory to explore. The Shimotsuki connection is the only plot thread of any relevance to Zoro's background, but that alone was already highly predicatble.
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Yeah, as far having the spotlight every arc, i think Oda has enough of that with Luffy.
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@King-Cannon said in Chapter 1090: Kizaru:
And it also might be the reason he didn't focus on Zoro's family as much. in the end, they're just a family of swordies swording their way around, so there's little interesting territory to explore. The Shimotsuki connection is the only plot thread of any relevance to Zoro's background, but that alone was already highly predicatble.
I think one thing that would've been a nice touch for Wano's conclusion is if O-Toko and Zoro had gotten one last interaction. Given that O-Toko lost her adopted father, Shimotsuki Yasuie, I think directly making the connection between her and Zoro's teacher - a likely relative to Yasuie who also lost a daughter - could've been a nice little bit of closure. Plus I think the revelations about Kozaburo were a little more compelling (particularly that the chapter he appears in heavily implies he was a pirate who was wanted by the navy) development for Zoro compared to filling in a family tree.
But c'est la vie.
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@last-exit-to-laughtale Nothing will ever change my mind that there should have been one more Wano chapter between 1056 and 1057. So much stuff deserving closure was just skipped... It could also fit that weird Yamato/Marco flashback in 1059, allowing 1059 to focus entirely on the Amazon Lily stuff.
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