@Ghidorah:
We'll see. The Wanoese have proven to be a fickle bunch with a habit of flipflopping. If things go the way I think they will, we're probably going to see them bitching again, rinse and repeat.
It still wouldn't matter cuz it's not a democracy and clearly they won't attempt to overthrow the shogun given these would be the ppl that defeated Kaido and Orochi.
I wonder if Enel has conqueror's haki.
He destroyed Birka, conquered Skypeia, has the huge god complex, and is ambitious enough to want to travel to the moon, built a ship to get there when he had no assurances he'd even survive. Then when he got there he basically took control of a bunch of automatons.
I think we've seen Kaido reading the newspaper in Onigashima so the waterfall is not an obstacle for the birds.
It was courtesy of Orochi who gave it to Oden. And who knows if it was Kaidou himself who handed it to Orochi first, as we know newspaper somehow reaches Onigashima (Kaidou reading of Doffy's defeat, Yamato of Ace's death). Maybe there's a crewmate of his who just buy the newspaper out of Wano.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Zik:
I wonder if Enel has conqueror's haki.
He destroyed Birka, conquered Skypeia, has the huge god complex, and is ambitious enough to want to travel to the moon, built a ship to get there when he had no assurances he'd even survive. Then when he got there he basically took control of a bunch of automatons.
Pretty surely he should have it. I mean, he even has the predisposition to haki.
Is Blackbeard really evil?
Other than killing thatch.
What truly evil deed has he committed?
HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.
Is Blackbeard really evil?
Other than killing thatch.
What truly evil deed has he committed?
He shows no honor, compassion or care towards others, thought. He seems to be a psychopath, lying, tricking and killing without any show of remorse or empathy.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
Is Blackbeard really evil?
Other than killing thatch.
What truly evil deed has he committed?
Walks into Impel Down level 6
Blackbeard: "Alright folks, Battle Royale time. All prisoners in each cell block are now to kill each other for my amusement. The winners get to come with me to take over the world."
He shows no honor, compassion or care towards others, thought. He seems to be a psychopath, lying, tricking and killing without any show of remorse or empathy.
Hmm, but the same could be said about other characters that we don't consider evil.
After all, have we seen someone like Hancock, Cavendsih or Barto display the same traits outside their selfish desires?
Heck to an extreme, unless you feed Luffy or do something nice for him, will he really stick his neck out for you?
Eg; We saw Zoro react strongly to the CDs and their shitty attitude towards a random person. But its interesting that we never saw the same for Luffy. He only acted after his ally/friend was hurt.
So in this context how can we gauge Luffy's morality.
Have we ever seen him protect someone who hadn't done something for him prior??
Lol, seriously, now that I think about it. In the whole story, Luffy has never protected someone who didn't help him out first.
Correct me if I am wrong/
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Walks into Impel Down level 6
Blackbeard: "Alright folks, Battle Royale time. All prisoners in each cell block are now to kill each other for my amusement. The winners get to come with me to take over the world."
Yes, he said this to some of the most heinous criminals in the One Piece world.
Not actions of an evil dude.
In fact, compared to our hero who would have released all those evil people just to save his brother, his actions are more moral than Luffy's
HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.
After all, have we seen someone like Hancock, Cavendsih or Barto display the same traits outside their selfish desires?
Not to the same extent. Hancock, Cavendish and Barto can be pretty cruel towards enemies, but they have honor and empathy. Barto saved Bellamy, Cavendish showed compassion towards Rebecca. Hancock is a different case in that she willingly built a facade of psychopathy to protect herself from her traumas, but she still worries about others, even if she rarely demonstrates it.
Blackbeard is a true psychopath. He has no morality. He's the opposite of Hancock: he will pretend to have honor and empathy, but his true self does not care. When the above characters are cruel, it's their external demeanor. Inside, they can be nice people once you earn their trust. Blackbeard is the complete opposite: he may seen nice outward, but inside he's a big SoB ready to betray anyone whenever he feels like it.
Asking his crew to go on a hunt for Devil Fruit users, kill them and steal their abilities for themselves is pretty evil in my book
Yes, he said this to some of the most heinous criminals in the One Piece world.
Not actions of an evil dude.
In fact, compared to our hero who would have released all those evil people just to save his brother, his actions are more moral than Luffy's
Yeah, hard disagree. If you want to argue that Luffy, the Strawhats, and many of the supporting cast aren't as "good" as they tend to be portrayed, that's one thing, but Blackbeard is another matter entirely.
Murdering Thatch was evil, full stop. If he wanted the Devil Fruit Thatch had found, he could have tried talking to him about it or even simply stealing the fruit before resorting to murder.
Pillaging Drum Kingdom can be written off as simply "Pirate Behavior" used to start building a name for himself, but it's still distinctly on the darker end of the spectrum.
Given his plan to join the Shichibukai, his hunt for a 100,000,000+ bounty isn't inherently "evil" in and of itself, but he had to know that handing over Ace to the World Government would result in a major clash between them and Whitebeard. Whether he could have anticipated the full extent of what happened at Marineford is debatable (I'm not sure if Teach knew Ace's bloodline, and thus how valuable his execution was to the WG, in advance), but at a minimum, he knowingly set up a head-on collision between one of the Yonkou and the Marines, for nothing more than a shot at using his new Shichibukai status to get into Impel Down, recruit some of those very same heinous criminals to his crew, and then promptly turn around and aim straight for Whitebeard's head - a man who, by all accounts, was a father figure for him - for the purposes of stealing his DF and usurping his position as Yonkou.
And since doing so, he and his crew have set up an operation for hunting down other DF users and killing them, specifically to steal their Devil Fruits.
Those are not the actions of a good man, no matter how you try to spin them.
Without love, it cannot be seen.
Not to the same extent. Hancock, Cavendish and Barto can be pretty cruel towards enemies, but they have honor and empathy. Barto saved Bellamy, Cavendish showed compassion towards Rebecca. Hancock is a different case in that she willingly built a facade of psychopathy to protect herself from her traumas, but she still worries about others, even if she rarely demonstrates it.
Blackbeard is a true psychopath. He has no morality. He's the opposite of Hancock: he will pretend to have honor and empathy, but his true self does not care. When the above characters are cruel, it's their external demeanor. Inside, they can be nice people once you earn their trust. Blackbeard is the complete opposite: he may seen nice outward, but inside he's a big SoB ready to betray anyone whenever he feels like it.
I don't know, outside of Luffy and her sisters, have we ever truly seen Hancock display compassion or empathy for someone else?
Same goes for Barto and Cavendish. Would they have stepped in to save a random innocent dresrrosian?
So far BB has not been shown to be unnecessarily cruel.
We could have easily seen him gloating about Ace's defeat and capture. But surprisingly enough he has never done it.
Addtionally we have never seen him gloat about killing thatch or Edward. Their death's were a necessary part to his plans.
He is not killing for enjoyment or pure cruelty.
He is not seeking control over anyone.
In fact, he believes that everyone has an assigned destiny/fate to their lives. and he adheres to that.
Surprisingly enough, Oda has reinforced this idea by recently showing us that Luffy is destined to be the Jesus of the One Piece world. He was always destined to be the Pirate King/Joy Boy/Sun God…ETC. Its his fate.
He is not fighting fate, he is manifesting his destiny.
BB believes that he is Luffy, so he has taken one or two lives along the way.
Same as Luffy, after all, it was only by pure coincidence that people like Buggy and Lucci didn't fall into the sea instead of safe spots after he was done with them
Asking his crew to go on a hunt for Devil Fruit users, kill them and steal their abilities for themselves is pretty evil in my book
Its a means to an end.
He hasn't asking them to massacre df users.
Just gather strong fruits.
So far, the people we have seen with powerful pirates are criminals and the WG
HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.
Blackbeard spending decades with the WB Pirates, forming bonds of brotherhood with them just to betray them so callously later is pure psychopathy. He clearly is beyond empathy and emotional bonds.
Yeah, hard disagree. If you want to argue that Luffy, the Strawhats, and many of the supporting cast aren't as "good" as they tend to be portrayed, that's one thing, but Blackbeard is another matter entirely.
Murdering Thatch was evil, full stop. If he wanted the Devil Fruit Thatch had found, he could have tried talking to him about it or even simply stealing the fruit before resorting to murder.
Pillaging Drum Kingdom can be written off as simply "Pirate Behavior" used to start building a name for himself, but it's still distinctly on the darker end of the spectrum.
Given his plan to join the Shichibukai, his hunt for a 100,000,000+ bounty isn't inherently "evil" in and of itself, but he had to know that handing over Ace to the World Government would result in a major clash between them and Whitebeard. Whether he could have anticipated the full extent of what happened at Marineford is debatable (I'm not sure if Teach knew Ace's bloodline, and thus how valuable his execution was to the WG, in advance), but at a minimum, he knowingly set up a head-on collision between one of the Yonkou and the Marines, for nothing more than a shot at using his new Shichibukai status to get into Impel Down, recruit some of those very same heinous criminals to his crew, and then promptly turn around and aim straight for Whitebeard's head - a man who, by all accounts, was a father figure for him - for the purposes of stealing his DF and usurping his position as Yonkou.
And since doing so, he and his crew have set up an operation for hunting down other DF users and killing them, specifically to steal their Devil Fruits.
Those are not the actions of a good man, no matter how you try to spin them.
No, I was talking about strictly in the context of Impel down.
Luffy let out hundreds of dangerous deranged criminals from the prison. From level 1 to level 5.
Not all of them were peace maines. I am sure a vast majority of them were shitty people who deserved to be imprisoned.
In comparison.
Teach had the most dangerous people in the world kill each other and then he selected the remaining ones and reigned them in. They are currently under his control and do as he wants.
Ask yourself, isn't it curious that we have never ever heard of the BB pirates actually comitting evil deeds among the normal populace. Oda could have easily added a blurb about how certain islands were suffering under BB rule. But its never happened.
As for Teach attacking Drum. As far as we know, there were never any civilian causalities. Him destroying that town, is akin to Luffy destroying the capital of dressrosa while fighting doffy.
I am not saying he is good. but he is certainly not evil.
Ceaser Clown is an evil person.
Big Mom is an evil person.
Teach….i dont see it
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Blackbeard spending decades with the WB Pirates, forming bonds of brotherhood with them just to betray them so callously later is pure psychopathy. He clearly is beyond empathy and emotional bonds.
I really disagree with this.
Would you call an undercover cop evil for going undercover?
HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.
No, I was talking about strictly in the context of Impel down.
Luffy let out hundreds of dangerous deranged criminals from the prison. From level 1 to level 5.
Not all of them were peace maines. I am sure a vast majority of them were shitty people who deserved to be imprisoned.
In comparison.
Teach had the most dangerous people in the world kill each other and then he selected the remaining ones and reigned them in. They are currently under his control and do as he wants.
Ask yourself, isn't it curious that we have never ever heard of the BB pirates actually comitting evil deeds among the normal populace. Oda could have easily added a blurb about how certain islands were suffering under BB rule. But its never happened.
As for Teach attacking Drum. As far as we know, there were never any civilian causalities. Him destroying that town, is akin to Luffy destroying the capital of dressrosa while fighting doffy.
Coercing imprisoned criminals into killing each other is evil, even if you intend to keep a tight leash on the survivors you plan to free. Also, while they've largely been left to anime filler and movie storylines, as I recall, it is still manga canon that there were Level 6 prisoners left behind after Teach was done who also escaped (Stampede's Douglas Bullet as a prime example), so it's not as though those now under Blackbeard's control were the only ones who made it out.
Furthermore, it was made clear early on that their loyalty to Blackbeard is pretty tenuous and self-serving. At least one, as I recall, stated in Marineford that he'd bail in a heartbeat if Teach wasn't able to do what he had claimed he could (implied to be stealing Whitebeard's DF after his death), which implies that Teach is keeping them in line not solely through his personal power - if that were the case, they wouldn't have simply hung around waiting for him to snag the Gura Gura no Mi - but also through appeasement. It's about giving them the power (and riches/women/etc.) that they want in exchange for supporting him, and that doesn't seem like a setup designed to "keep them on a short leash" to me. Rather the opposite - it sounds like Teach is saying "As long as it doesn't cause problems for my plans, you lot can do whatever you want." That's not keeping them on a short leash - it's essentially giving them a free rein.
We know for a fact that they've been hunting down and killing people for their Devil Fruits, and while he's barely a footnote, good ol' Pinkbeard (Peachbeard? …Momohige) was introduced ravaging a nation in the name of Blackbeard for it's annual Celestial Dragon tribute at the start of the Reverie arc - the chapter where we're introduced to the four Revolutionary Commanders.
Beyond that, the reason we don't have much evidence for Blackbeard's "tyranny and oppression" (though honestly, from my perspective, we've seen plenty already) is because he's not the focal villain at the moment. I expect we'll see a LOT more in that regard as the build up to the final clash with him starts up.
Without love, it cannot be seen.
Furthermore, it was made clear early on that their loyalty to Blackbeard is pretty tenuous and self-serving. At least one, as I recall, stated in Marineford that he'd bail in a heartbeat if Teach wasn't able to do what he had claimed he could (implied to be stealing Whitebeard's DF after his death), which implies that Teach is keeping them in line not solely through his personal power - if that were the case, they wouldn't have simply hung around waiting for him to snag the Gura Gura no Mi - but also through appeasement. It's about giving them the power (and riches/women/etc.) that they want in exchange for supporting him, and that doesn't seem like a setup designed to "keep them on a short leash" to me. Rather the opposite - it sounds like Teach is saying "As long as it doesn't cause problems for my plans, you lot can do whatever you want." That's not keeping them on a short leash - it's essentially giving them a free rein.
How is this any different from Luffy recruiting pre timeskip Zoro.
Remember, Zoro explicitly told Luffy that he would cut his head off if he intefered with his dreams.
The only diiference is that Luffy earned Zoro's loyalty. We have not seen teach earn the other BBs loyalty. That is not evil
We know for a fact that they've been hunting down and killing people for their Devil Fruits, and while he's barely a footnote, good ol' Pinkbeard (Peachbeard? …Momohige) was introduced ravaging a nation in the name of Blackbeard for it's annual Celestial Dragon tribute at the start of the Reverie arc - the chapter where we're introduced to the four Revolutionary Commanders.
Beyond that, the reason we don't have much evidence for Blackbeard's "tyranny and oppression" (though honestly, from my perspective, we've seen plenty already) is because he's not the focal villain at the moment. I expect we'll see a LOT more in that regard as the build up to the final clash with him starts up.
Again, lets look at this from a meta perspective.
If Oda wanted us to view the BB as evil, he would have shown us them attacking a relative weak "good guy" for their fruit.
So far we have only seen them go after incredibly strong people. Edward, Sabo and Luffy.
If Luffy got defeated and killed by burgess, would he cry about it?
No, he would accept that was the limit of his strength and go out with a smile on his face. Inherently making the act of killing him as not evil.
We have never ever seen. teach attack a civilian. He has only attacked pirates, marines serving a corrupt government and people actively seeking to end his life.
He is not evil.
HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?
ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.
Hancock was a complete monster starting out, then she got some of that Vegeta is nice now powder sprinkled on her and now she is nicer.
Its a means to an end.
He hasn't asking them to massacre df users.
Just gather strong fruits.
So far, the people we have seen with powerful pirates are criminals and the WG
Ends don't justify the means, never have, never will. They aren't just looking for and gathering strong and available fruits, they're actively hunting Devil Fruit users because they know of a way to extract their powers.
!
And the people on the receiving end being mostly outlaws does not detract from their actions being evil whatsoever. Or do you also think people can do whatever they want to criminals?
But with all your replies and arguments it's becoming pretty apparent that you're not interested in questioning your own perspective and that you're already set in your "Blackbeard actually isn't evil" mindset, no matter what others say.
How is this any different from Luffy recruiting pre timeskip Zoro.
Remember, Zoro explicitly told Luffy that he would cut his head off if he intefered with his dreams.
The only diiference is that Luffy earned Zoro's loyalty. We have not seen teach earn the other BBs loyalty. That is not evil
It's not different, except on one very key point - the character of the person/people he freed and recruited.
Zoro is fundamentally a good(-ish) person. The Level 6 prisoners Blackbeard recruited are emphatically not.
Again, lets look at this from a meta perspective.
If Oda wanted us to view the BB as evil, he would have shown us them attacking a relative weak "good guy" for their fruit.
So far we have only seen them go after incredibly strong people. Edward, Sabo and Luffy.
If Luffy got defeated and killed by burgess, would he cry about it?
No, he would accept that was the limit of his strength and go out with a smile on his face. Inherently making the act of killing him as not evil.
We have never ever seen. teach attack a civilian. He has only attacked pirates, marines serving a corrupt government and people actively seeking to end his life.
He is not evil.
Wapol and his army bailed on Drum Island the moment Blackbeard showed up. The only people that were left for Teach to attack were civilians, unless you think that Dalton could have put up enough of a fight that they ravaged the country as mere collateral damage to their epic battle.
Again, Momohige was targeting a weak nation during the Reverie under Blackbeard's umbrella. Attacking civilians is not somehow a line Teach is unwilling to cross.
And since when is "My opponent would accept their death, so therefore my killing them is not evil" a thing?
By pirate standards Blacky seems fairly middle of the road. He's reverese personality Luffy after all, he feels more chaotic and selfish than evil for evulz.
I wonder if Robin knows the content of the Poneglyph that Ohara had… It's one of the 9 historical, and one of the most important at that, containing the name of the Kingdom...
Did she read it back then... If not, she is going to...
So where does the WG keep it? In Mary Geoise? How many do they have?
Ends don't justify the means, never have, never will. They aren't just looking for and gathering strong and available fruits, they're actively hunting Devil Fruit users because they know of a way to extract their powers.
! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210920/32425bad368f678a5a53048430e62c75.jpg
And the people on the receiving end being mostly outlaws does not detract from their actions being evil whatsoever. Or do you also think people can do whatever they want to criminals?
But with all your replies and arguments it's becoming pretty apparent that you're not interested in questioning your own perspective and that you're already set in your "Blackbeard actually isn't evil" mindset, no matter what others say.
Aw shucks, it kind of stings that you have pigeonholed me into that role.
I was just presenting my argument.
I am completely and utterly open to being proven wrong.
I believe in a steel man argument more than a straw man argument.
Is Blackbeard really evil?
Other than killing thatch.
What truly evil deed has he committed?
Evil? No
Lousy, morally bankrupt selfish scumbag? Yes.@Deicide:
He shows no honor, compassion or care towards others, thought. He seems to be a psychopath, lying, tricking and killing without any show of remorse or empathy.
Should be noted this isn't necessarily evil either. Psychopaths can't change that they were born that way.
Blackbeard killed his father? His killed Thatch, gave his nakama Ace away to be executed and attacked and killed someone he pretended to consider his own father, Whitebeard.
Also, evil =/= tyranny
Big Mom and the Marines are examples of dominant and hierarchical powers. Blackbeard is on the freedom side of evil: let everyone do what they want, have fun on my pirate island, and kill if necessary.
They did destroy Drum, and for no reason. Civilians and Dalton looked pretty traumatised after.
Is Blackbeard really evil?
Other than killing thatch.
What truly evil deed has he committed?
I always considered him a boringly evil character. He just seem to be always cackling about causing great damage. And do a lot of uncessary damage. Like he destroying marineford for fun after taking the fruit from Whitebeard. Had the whole whats more fun then a battle to the death for recruitment. And people like his doctor and Burguess are introcuced having fun destroying/killing people.
What is interesting about the Blackbeard pirates is that they to some degree feel they aren't choosing to do things as much as they are compelled to do things by fate.
I'm noticing a bizarre overlap between the "Blackbbeard's unredeemably evil and ends don't justify the means" and the "Tama did nothing wrong, she's punishing criminals" crowds here. Guess the missing teeth are the dead giveaway of evil.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing
I'm noticing a bizarre overlap between the "Blackbbeard's unredeemably evil and ends don't justify the means" and the "Tama did nothing wrong, she's punishing criminals" crowds here. Guess the missing teeth are the dead giveaway of evil.
Dunno about irredeemable, but I don't think anyone tried to sell Tama as a saint. That was my justification for her actions in any case, the protagonists and their allies aren't exclusively do-gooders who are only allowed to use morally acceptable actions. They did plenty of things that can be considered "evil" and in the eyes of the general populace they didn't save, they are.
I'm noticing a bizarre overlap between the "Blackbbeard's unredeemably evil and ends don't justify the means" and the "Tama did nothing wrong, she's punishing criminals" crowds here. Guess the missing teeth are the dead giveaway of evil.
When Tama's rise to power begins by stabbing someone who was by all accounts a brother to her in the back, then I'll probably be more willing to concede the point.
What is interesting about the Blackbeard pirates is that they to some degree feel they aren't choosing to do things as much as they are compelled to do things by fate.
I mean I dont like fate so that wouldnt be much of a positive. But also I feel Blackbeard clesrly wants to win and has already pick the way he wants to win like getting the yami and becoming a warlord so I dont really think he feels compell to do stuff. More like he has a goal he wants and is trying to find the way to it.
Dunno about irredeemable, but I don't think anyone tried to sell Tama as a saint. That was my justification for her actions in any case, the protagonists and their allies aren't exclusively do-gooders who are only allowed to use morally acceptable actions. They did plenty of things that can be considered "evil" and in the eyes of the general populace they didn't save, they are.
In-story mass perception of good and evil is something completely different than morality from the reader's standpoint. We have been following the entire adventure since day one and we know for a fact that dangerous criminal Monkey D. Luffy never ever did anything unethical (while doing a modest amount of unlawful stuff).Tama (or whoever for that matter)doesn't "get a pass" on morally questionable acts just because she associates with the guy falsely accused of destroying Enies Lobby. She gets some understanding for being a traumatised child wanting to help in a liberation war with her powers, but the problem lies in the fact that her actions are framed as compeltely positive, enabled and commente favorably by the heroes, while had it been performed in the exact same way by a smelly kid in Teach's crew it would have been portrayed as sinister and unsettling.
While I couldn't resist throwing that half-joking jab at the Tama thing, I don't want to reopen that can of worms here and now, my point is that the original point on wether we can assume Teach's unmistakably evil is actually interesting because we can re-read a charachter's actions while removing the bias given to us throughthe protagonist/antagonist depiction.
When Tama's rise to power begins by stabbing someone who was by all accounts a brother to her in the back, then I'll probably be more willing to concede the point.
Well she did make an enslaved baboon jump to its death while believing it did so compelled by its new-found samurai honour… not really tha same thing but you have to start somewhere.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing
In-story mass perception of good and evil is something completely different than morality from the reader's standpoint. We have been following the entire adventure since day one and we know for a fact that dangerous criminal Monkey D. Luffy never ever did anything unethical (while doing a modest amount of unlawful stuff).Tama (or whoever for that matter)doesn't "get a pass" on morally questionable acts just because she associates with the guy falsely accused of destroying Enies Lobby. She gets some understanding for being a traumatised child wanting to help in a liberation war with her powers, but the problem lies in the fact that her actions are framed as compeltely positive, enabled and commente favorably by the heroes, while had it been performed in the exact same way by a smelly kid in Teach's crew it would have been portrayed as sinister and unsettling.
While I couldn't resist throwing that half-joking jab at the Tama thing, I don't want to reopen that can of worms here and now, my point is that the original point on wether we can assume Teach's unmistakably evil is actually interesting because we can re-read a charachter's actions while removing the bias given to us throughthe protagonist/antagonist depiction.
Luffy did pretty much the same thing Tama did even if on a much smaller scale and it was played off as a gag without ever addressing that it's a wrong thing to do. I don't think anyone complained back then.
Also, if you're arguing about morality from a reader's perspective: Don't you think it's unethical to willfully let a bunch of the worst criminals alive loose only to spring your brother from prison? Isn't it unethical to use violence and destruction of other people's property to solve problems? Isn't it unethical to rob and extort people?
Luffy and the Straw Hats have done plenty of unethical things.
Well she did make an enslaved baboon jump to its death while believing it did so compelled by its new-found samurai honour… not really tha same thing but you have to start somewhere.
Ah yes, of course… How could I forget the incontrovertible proof of O-tama's misdeeds that is Hihimaru's tragic corpse, which we have most definitely seen.
Surely nothing so clearly shows how the heartless girl has abused those in her thrall, except perhaps for the horrific death of poor Umami, who was callously forced to interpose herself between the vile, cowardly O-tama and the righteous Kaidou, who merely wanted to save his people from being enslaved by such a monster.
Luffy did pretty much the same thing Tama did even if on a much smaller scale and it was played off as a gag without ever addressing that it's a wrong thing to do. I don't think anyone complained back then.
Overpowering someone who's trying to kill you and using him as a human shield agains other people trying to kill you is hardly comparable to brainwash people into brainwashing their friends.
@Coookie:
Also, if you're arguing about morality from a reader's perspective: Don't you think it's unethical to willfully let a bunch of the worst criminals alive loose only to spring your brother from prison?
That was collateral damage, not something planned since the beginning. What happend was that Luffy infiltrated a prison. Is it unlawful? suerely. is it unethical? let's see: The prison in point is a place shaped to resemble Hell, where prisoners are constatly tortured by people dressed like literl nazis and where you could end up for the crime of knowing stuff the government does not want to be known. Luffy went there to free Ace, a guy who's only known crime is being his father's son. You could resent (for wathever reason) Luffy for causing a prison riot… but he had PLENTY of ethical reasons to do what he did, and it's not like he jad a choice at any point to do anything different.
Finally, even not considering all of that... it wouldn't even have mattered if he did anything different, since Teach came there a minute later and stormed the palce, so the mass evasion would have happened nonetheless and for far less noble purposes (we are told by the narrative), making the point irrelevant.
@Coookie:
Isn't it unethical to use violence and destruction of other people's property to solve problems? Isn't it unethical to rob and extort people?
Luffy and the Straw Hats have done plenty of unethical things.
I really can't remember an instance where the "problems" that had to be solved were anything else than stopping some oppression and/or injustice, really. Has it ever happened in an instance where the StrawHats didn't end up having the moral highground over their "victims"?
Ah yes, of course… How could I forget the incontrovertible proof of O-tama's misdeeds that is Hihimaru's tragic corpse, which we have most definitely seen.
Surely nothing so clearly shows how the heartless girl has abused those in her thrall, except perhaps for the horrific death of poor Umami, who was callously forced to interpose herself between the vile, cowardly O-tama and the righteous Kaidou, who merely wanted to save his people from being enslaved by such a monster.
We haven't seen Thatch's body either.
I wonder is Magellan also a part of the oni race?
I know this board is allergic to power-level discussions but… Contextualise how strong Oden really is at his peak.
If he's alive in today's OP universe, is hr someone who's standing on equal footing with the admirals and emperors?
I'll guess that he was 1,25 Ace.
@Gol:
I know this board is allergic to power-level discussions but… Contextualise how strong Oden really is at his peak.
In the grey area between the first top commander and a Yonkou. Also called The Yamato Zone.
I'll guess that he was 1,25 Ace.
Interesting - x 1.25 of Ace as we saw him? Yeah, Ace had all the tools as well( Chosen one's haki, lineage of a powerful character)
In the grey area between the first top commander and a Yonkou. Also called The Yamato Zone.
I'm okay with this too. To clarify, you're referring to the time Oden and Kaido clashed? I think that's what Oden was at when he lost… Well, both of them for that matter and that single distraction decided the fight- the Yamato zone makes sense.
@Gol:
I know this board is allergic to power-level discussions but… Contextualise how strong Oden really is at his peak.
If he's alive in today's OP universe, is hr someone who's standing on equal footing with the admirals and emperors?
I think he's pretty much exactly like Mihawk except for maybe stronger (physically).
World's strongest/best swordsman but not yonkou level. Could challenge an admiral but that's it. If you're talking just dropping prime Oden in to the present.
If you mean if he never died, he probably could be closer to yonkou
Do we know why Kaido chose this year of all years to implement the New Onigashima project? I can't remember any reason explicitly stated, so my guess was that it was because of his knowledge of Joyboy's arrival, but I was wondering if I missed something.
Do we know why Kaido chose this year of all years to implement the New Onigashima project? I can't remember any reason explicitly stated, so my guess was that it was because of his knowledge of Joyboy's arrival, but I was wondering if I missed something.
It honestly almost seemed like he was just waiting for something to put him over the top power wise and then Big Mom came in offering an alliance after her recent failed attempt so Kaido was like it is 20 years later, Joyboy should be popping up, let me kill Orochi, force my son to run Wano, and go get One Piece with Linlin in this new unstoppable union.
@Zik:
I think he's pretty much exactly like Mihawk except for maybe stronger (physically).
World's strongest/best swordsman but not yonkou level. Could challenge an admiral but that's it. If you're talking just dropping prime Oden in to the present.
If you mean if he never died, he probably could be closer to yonkou
Thanks and agree with your take as well. Oda wrote their fight well enough - showed Oden's strength and just a distraction was all it took for Kaido to O.H.K.O.
I remember Brook's line about battles being decided quickly if both are destructive swordsmen; while Kaido isn't a swordsman but in a battle of super strong characters, a distraction is all it takes.
Another question -
With CP-0 already showing interest in Wano and the BMP still looming, what reinforcements can we reasonably expect to support the alliance?
I'm a bit hopeful that the remnants of the Whitebeard pirates show up. They're part of the Oden flashback, their de facto leader is involved, they have ties with Momo and Hiyori, and I think it'll address the plot line Oda opened up with the WG keen on forcefully occupying Wano.
A Bolo Breath from Momo should deter them initially but how can they be kept from trying again as Luffy and Co. (With Yamato presumably in the crew) are out to finish their journey? A force decent enough to deter them from trying again: Remnants of the scabbards, the clone of Kaido's DF, minks, Tama and her beast friends, and… the remnants of the WB pirates.
@Gol:
With CP-0 already showing interest in Wano and the BMP still looming, what reinforcements can we reasonably expect to support the alliance?
I personally think that they are going to win without anyone else appearing. There's a lot of evidence for the possibility of a BM character turn: fundamentally sympathetic goals for Tottoland, she doesn't know Sanji made the cake that saved Tottoland, she might hate CP0 if she learns Karmel was planning on selling Linlin to them, and so on. If BM and Perospero fall here, we know Katakuri would likely take over the BM pirates, and he's definitely sympathetic to Luffy. He could simply appear out of a mirror to make them take on the CP0 fleet.
Katakuri appearing out of a mirror to fight CP0 would be badass.
Quick question about Ichiji and Judge
I always ask myself.
Why both of them are the only ones without the earphones?
And why Judge hasn't the hovering pads as his children.
Is there a deeper reason for for it?
Hi everyone. I have a few questions for y'all:
1. Do all chapters that get filtered on the Internet stay forever with the series?
2. Generally speaking, all series (TV series, cartoons, Japanese manga and anime alike) should always protect the copyright of brands and products by not showing them on their shows. But I have seen a certain manga called Bakuman that makes mentions of some real manga like One Piece and Dragon Ball. How could this happen?
Please reply! Thanks!
Hi everyone. I have a few questions for y'all:
1. Do all chapters that get filtered on the Internet stay forever with the series?
2. Generally speaking, all series (TV series, cartoons, Japanese manga and anime alike) should always protect the copyright of brands and products by not showing them on their shows. But I have seen a certain manga called Bakuman that makes mentions of some real manga like One Piece and Dragon Ball. How could this happen?
Please reply! Thanks!
Like DragonBall, and One Piece, Bakuman was published on the Weekly Shounen Jump magazine, so they could use those names freely.
They also mention Death Note on the first chapter of Bakuman, because it was also published on the same magazine and made by the same authors.
Quick question about Ichiji and Judge
I always ask myself.
Why both of them are the only ones without the earphones?
A**nd why Judge hasn't the hovering pads as his children.
Is there a deeper reason for for it?**
The hovering pads? The things that helped them fly? If that's what you are referring to Judge certainly did have them during the fight he had with Sanji. If you mean something else then I'm not sure.
The earphone thing could be an interesting story point later or a neat note to be printed in an SBS.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯ 
