Luffy was Roger's reincarnation. Good times.
Haha, funny right… good that now we know he's Joy Boy's reincarnation... :ninja:
Luffy was Roger's reincarnation. Good times.
Haha, funny right… good that now we know he's Joy Boy's reincarnation... :ninja:
I hear you, you mean he is a clone!
Or time traveler. Or a time traveling clone
you still know me too well
Queen continues to be a really interesting character. Just from his personality alone, I would say his presence is similar to Katakuri.
Its also interesting that he's the first character to ever comment on Sanji's weird fire kicks. But it makes sense that out of everyone we met so far, he would be the one to notice.
King is…I don't know. He still hasn't truly shown us what sets him apart from other people as the right hand man to kaidou. I wonder why, in comparison to WCI, we had seen how dangerous, Cracker, Oven and Katakuri were before the climax.
I don't care for Raizou and his fight. It just feels really needlessly tacked on.
What is Denjiro doing?
For the first time in a really long time(perhaps ever) Zoro and Sanji had an actual conversation with no insults included. Absolutely refreshing.
Momo looks cool.
I wonder what the parallel to his Punk Hazard moment with Luffy will be like.
Queen = Katakuri
… whut???
Yeah, this is the same stuff that Naruto pulled, though it was a bit more obvious with Naruto. I don't understand why Mangaka are so insistent on making hard work from a nobody a theme and then running away from it. Maybe it's a cultural thing and the early parts confirm the hard work while the latter reveal of bloodline satisfies those who care about that stuff. I know I don't like it, lol.
Luffy's the son of Dragon and the grandson of Garp. And that's about it, the marines didn't turn a blind eye to his actions for being the grandson of their hero, all the opposite in fact. And being the son of the greatest criminal in the world certainly hasn't made things any easier for him.
Now, if it turns out Luffy is somehow the reincarnation of Joy Boy, then that would be it. But "Joy Boy" is a title, not a name, so…
Parallelisms also don't count, because they are just random things.
If Kozaburo turns out to be the "old guy" that Zoro told Momo about, then he is not a Shimotsuki. Interesting that the same chapter Zoro is given Enma, he also tells Momo where he got Sunnachi from. Less than 7 pages later, Tenguyama reveals the name of Kozaburo. The guy who made both Wado and Enma, as well as established Zoro's village. If Zoro was related to the old guy, I think he would refer to him differently.
Ace and Luffy refer to Garp in slightly different ways, but even Ace has not said "old guy".
actually in Japanese THEY TECHNICALLY ARE
jiji ojiji jiichan all are different ways of saying gramps … and old guy
Haha, funny right… good that now we know he's Joy Boy's reincarnation... :ninja:
That one is also hilarious because it was debunked by this statement from Kaido.
"It appears you couldn't become Joy Boy, either". And is interesting to note Kaido is waiting for the next Joy Boy, makes you wonder if Xebec was also a candidate.
because Kaido's the complete unbiased judge of that
That one is also hilarious because it was debunked by this statement from Kaido.
"It appears you couldn't become Joy Boy, either".
You do know the fight is not over yet?
It's the exact opposite, he confirmed it…
@dirt:
because Kaido's the complete unbiased judge of that
If anything when the villain says you can never become X! That is a sure sign that the hero just has become or very soon will become X
I get your point but I really hope it doesn’t go that way. Zoro’s appeal is the random village orphan with a great ambition and works his socks off everyday to be the best. Saying it was all in his genes makes it a bit flat for me.
You're confusing two ideas it seems.
Zoro is still all of that.
That his relatives or ancestor were also great/popular/important is just added background info. Don't think Oda is saying his genes literally are the reason he's a great swordsman.
Its just a 'it runs in the family' sort of fun fact like a military or cop family.
You do know the fight is not over yet?
It's the exact opposite, he confirmed it…
That's not what I'm talking about, Joy Boy is a title, not an actual name. And the information we have about this particular hystorical figure is so scarce that it would be silly to rush things.
If anything when the villain says you can never become X! That is a sure sign that the hero just has become or very soon will become X
!
If anything when the villain says you can never become X! That is a sure sign that the hero just has become or very soon will become X
It also hints at a past figure Kaido thought was a candidate to be Joy Boy, so his disappointment when he knocked Luffy out cold again is even more justified.
Because I'm very certain Yamato just wanted to keep Oden's legacy alive. But that's not the reason twitter would have a meltdown, but the fact Yamato would stop identifying herself as Oden, and therefore as a man.
Why are you "very certain" those are Yamato's intentions? That definitely seems to be a part of why Yamato is trying to be Oden, but in a series all about Inherited Will, doesn't that have to factor in as well? What would Yamato dropping the ideal of Oden say about the quality of that ideal (and of Yamato) in the first place?
That's the entire point of CoC, is the only type of color that's inherited somehow.
Well, I don't think there's proof that it's ONLY inherited, but that's besides the point. The point is that if Zoro can only be a part of the upper echelon because he inherited a power that lets him fight against foes like Kaido and Big Mom, that does seem to take away from the idea that he's all blood, sweat, and effort. It becomes blood, sweat, effort, and something that only 1 out of a million people are born with: A glass ceiling. I don't like it because it seems like the sort of thing that the story would easily be better without. If CoC is something that one can achieve, but that only 1 in a million are capable of pulling off (because of the necessities of the achievement) then it seems fully focused on the strength of their will instead of their blood.
It also hints at a past figure Kaido thought was a candidate to be Joy Boy, so his disappointment when he knocked Luffy out cold again is even more justified.
except it doesn't point to that - this is a weird leap of logic
Why are you "very certain" those are Yamato's intentions? That definitely seems to be a part of why Yamato is trying to be Oden, but in a series all about Inherited Will, doesn't that have to factor in as well? What would Yamato dropping the ideal of Oden say about the quality of that ideal (and of Yamato) in the first place?
Nah, I just want to have a laugh with the snowflakes that immediately called Yamato "trans". Nothing else.
Well, I don't think there's proof that it's ONLY inherited, but that's besides the point. The point is that if Zoro can only be a part of the upper echelon because he inherited a power that lets him fight against foes like Kaido and Big Mom, that does seem to take away from the idea that he's all blood, sweat, and effort. It becomes blood, sweat, effort, and something that only 1 out of a million people are born with: A glass ceiling. I don't like it because it seems like the sort of thing that the story would easily be better without. If CoC is something that one can achieve, but that only 1 in a million are capable of pulling off (because of the necessities of the achievement) then it seems fully focused on the strength of their will instead of their blood.
Time will tell if it really is a bloodline thing, or if is something you awaken when your emotions blow up as it was shown several times through the story.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@dirt:
except it doesn't point to that - this is a weird leap of logic
Then you tell me, why Kaido knows so much about that figure.
because he's had others study what they can of the past and poneglyphs, and has made an _assumption_ based on what they've told him
Kaido is not the defacto expert on Joy Boy
One of THE most recurring themes and messages of the series is "it doesn't matter who you're related to by blood, its about who you CHOOSE to be your family."
Blood (of the covenant) is thicker than water (of the womb). Luffy, Ace, and Sabo, BECAME blood brothers. They chose to be brothers.
And Ace was the actual son of the Pirate King.
Luffy isn't the direct son of Roger, but he's in the immediate family.
Luffy is also wearing the actual hat of the pirate king. So that's something.
But that might be why all the fated one stuff, or the "direct descendant" stuff is rubbing so many the wrong way. For most of the series its explicitly been NOT about who you were related to.
This is of course before we find out that Portgas D. Rouge was Garp's sister or something and that they are actually directly related.
All of this is true and I don't disagree, but let me step back and be clearer on my angle for all this: I think the people who are getting chuffed about this chapter bringing in a 'direct descendant' plotline for Zoro are wrong because they're confused, and don't understand the relationships between the characters involved. And I don't think I'm being pedantic here. I think they're just very obviously wrong.
What we know is that Shimotsuki Kozaburo, direct descendant of Ryuuma who forged Wado Ichimonji and Enma, emigrated from Wano to East Blue, and Shimotsuki Village is named for him. Kozaburo's son is Zoro's former sensei, and his granddaughter is Kuina. From this we get Zoro learning 'Sunacchi' as a kid, and his inheriting Wado Ichimonji after Kuina's death, as that sword was in the Shimotsuki. That's it.
To conclude from this that "Zoro is related to the Shimotsukis" you would have to suggest that there were some other as-yet-unnamed Shimotsukis in the mix who also came to East Blue, or Koushirou is secretly Zoro's dad on top of being his sensei (and so Z and K are secret siblings???). There is not anything in the manga that substantiates that at all. So (until proven otherwise, Occam's razor, whatever) – Zoro is not a Shimotsuki; Zoro is not related to Ryuuma; Zoro does not have a 'fated bloodline' that we have any actual (non-conjectural) information about. And yet the internet is suddenly plastered with "Zoro's a Shimotsuki??! waaahh" It doesn't make sense!!
The wider bloodline-versus-found-family theme is of course a central part of this story, and one that gets complicated by various plotlines (Is D. actually a bloodline specifically, such that Luffy, Teach, Roger, Saul, Law actually have blood ancestors in common?). My interpretation of the 'inherited will' theme of One Piece is that it is largely posed in opposition to the bloodline stuff. So stripping the weird Straw Hat/Joy Boy/prophetic stuff away for a second, there's a common motif with Luffy and Zoro: Ace was 'meant' to be Pirate King as Roger's blood son, but Luffy will inherit his will (and Roger's). Kuina was 'meant' to carry on the Shimotsuki spirit/'greatest swordsman' goal as an actual member of that family, but Zoro will inherit her will and see it through. These are both explicitly non-bloodline cases of inherited will/found family dynamics.
Sorry to be so longwinded on this but it's completely vexing to me seeing "Zoro is Ryuuma's descendant" or whatever. You (general you, not Robby) can critique the sense that OP's world is getting more interconnected by fate or circumstance, as wolfwood articulated nicely in the spoiler thread. Totally legit. But if your takeaway from any of this stuff is that "Zoro is related by blood to the Shimotsuki family" you are just misunderstanding the story that you're reading.
yeah, he's not a Shimotsuki
he just looks a lot like Ushimaru for no reason whatsoever
! which actually could be a nod to the Kuina/Tashigi thing, but that's a coinky dink that I can't get behind
And Zoro looks like Ryuuma because the latter was designed by Oda first, used as a basis for the former, and then was conveniently re-threaded into One Piece's story.
And Duval looks like Sanji's drawn bounty poster for pure shits and giggles.
And Kuina and Tashigi, as you said, do look identical for no reason that we can discern, as an intentional plot point.
So you can suspect that they're related, and if Oda drops a retcon-level reveal that makes Zoro into a Shimotsuki, then I'll drop this. But it's an assertion unsubstantiated by the story so far.
Everyone is a Shimotsuki… man they were busy in the East Blue... :ninja:
besides the fact that they are indeed from the same village and nothing stops Ushimaru from having some of his other family members emigrating with him out of Wano
Zoro doesn't have to be a direct descendent of Ushimaru to look like him either. Either Ushimaru had a shit ton of kids or even a brother or sister come with him to pass the genes along.
sometimes, the simplest answer IS the answer, dude
And here I thought after over one thousand chapters people would stop with this nonsense. The mayor of Luffy's hometown talked about destiny like it was the most normal thing very early into the series, and no one batted an eye. As of the latest chapter, none of the Strawhats got to where they are now because of genes or whatever.
Are we also going to ignore that the crew avoided complete annihilation once thanks to a bomb that had +200 chapters of build up? Like, Oda could have come up with whatever escape route out of sheer luck and it would have still worked, but he actually went that far to make the crew survival all the more legit. Oda isn't the type that takes the easiest approach.
someone being the direct descendent of someone from the distant past does not erase everything else - it's also an incredibly Shounen thing to do, so why are you surprised again? this is actually a similar argument from way back when when Luffy's own relations were coming to light
ohno Zoro might be related to Ryuuma ALL OF ODA'S WORK IS MOOT NOW. FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE. THIS THE MAIN PROBLEM
@dirt:
sometimes, the simplest answer IS the answer, dude
This is true. Somehow I don't think "the character with a different name than the fated bloodline, who trained under them but was never acknowledged as a relative by any of those people, is secretly related to them by way of hypothetical characters I have made up, rather than being an instance of the story's emphasis on inherited will being more important than blood relations" is the simplest answer here
wow, it's almost as if Ushi's sister or someone could've married someone from the East Blue
Personally i just take it at face value
or that
Ryuuma looks awesome and him being one eyed, I hope this will put some end to the Zoro will open his left eye for some shit.
Abour Sanji… How was he using the raid suit 2 times.
1. Against Page One
2. Against Drake and Hawkins
3. Against KingOr do Oda want to say that after Page One he never transformed back
My take was that he started feeling the change after the second time, not necessarily that the second time was the last time he used it. In this way, I did not see a disconnect.
@dirt:
someone being the direct descendent of someone from the distant past does not erase everything else - it's also an incredibly Shounen thing to do, so why are you surprised again? this is actually a similar argument from way back when when Luffy's own relations were coming to light
ohno Zoro might be related to Ryuuma ALL OF ODA'S WORK IS MOOT NOW. FORGET EVERYTHING ELSE. THIS THE MAIN PROBLEM
The people that frequent this forum section are quite special… But at least is not as bad as, say, 4chan.
@dirt:
wow, it's almost as if Ushi's sister or someone could've married someone from the East Blue
is secretly related to them by way of hypothetical characters I have made up
Personally i just take it at face value
Just like people pointing out the connections between Luffy and Roger suggest they're directly related, huh?
fwiw it doesn't matter to me much if Zoro is a descendant of Ryuuma, though I'd obviously be interested to see how that's confirmed/addressed in the story or SBS or whatever. I just feel like I'm reading a different manga than everyone else when I read internet discourse sometimes - the conclusion of 'Shimotsuki Zoro' from this chapter feels like bizarre mental gymnastics to me. oh well.
The people that frequent this forum section are quite special… But at least is not as bad as, say, 4chan.
ya'll aren't that special, trust me
Just like people pointing out the connections between Luffy and Roger suggest they're directly related, huh?
fwiw it doesn't matter to me much if Zoro is a descendant of Ryuuma, though I'd obviously be interested to see how that's confirmed/addressed in the story or SBS or whatever. I just feel like I'm reading a different manga than everyone else when I read internet discourse sometimes - the conclusion of 'Shimotsuki Zoro' from this chapter feels like bizarre mental gymnastics to me. oh well.
I sure don't really care that much. That's why I'm arguing with someone on an anime/manga forum about it and even made a list of my points and reasoning behind it.
Nah, I just want to have a laugh with the snowflakes that immediately called Yamato "trans". Nothing else.
Who are you referring to? Just about everyone was confused on how exactly to handle Yamato the first couple of chapters after he was first introduced, wondering where exactly Oda was going with this. Then before long it became clear that aside from the sole instance of the intro box making it clear what Yamato's biological gender was, virtually every other instance within the arc was consistent in making it clear to view Yamato as a man until further notice, with Luffy himself following suit. And the sole time it didn't was in that one flashback with Yamato and Ace, when a Spade Pirate who never met Yamato mistakenly referred to him as "Yamato's daughter", which noticeably resulted in Yamato getting visibly upset.
I honestly don't understand how people that are simply going along with what the actual manga is telling us are "snowflakes", yet people still in denial over a year later on how the manga refers to Yamato apparently aren't. Especially when even now you still have people on social media as recently as today (due to the reveal of his VA) going out of their way to defiantly assert that Yamato is a woman no matter what despite no one asking.
@dirt:
except it doesn't point to that - this is a weird leap of logic
Nah, I agree with him that you can easily it that way given Kaido's use of the word "either". Especially since it's not like Luffy ever brought up Joy Boy to Kaido in the first place, so there's a good chance he had someone in his thoughts when he was saying that.
In Logue Town Dragon was there for no apparent reason, and his son Luffy just happened to be also there. What a coincidence, right? Or was it because of FATE
@dirt:
I sure don't really care that much. That's why I'm arguing with someone on an anime/manga forum about it and even made a list of my points and reasoning behind it.
I appreciate you taking the time to make your bad faith engagement with this discussion abundantly clear – have a lovely day
I appreciate you taking the time to make your bad faith engagement with this discussion abundantly clear – have a lovely day
fwiw it doesn't matter to me much if Zoro is a descendant of Ryuuma
. .
Who are you referring to?
My apologies, I should have elaborated on. I was referring to that type of individuals you only find in twitter who cannot get in their thick heads that two males can just be really good friends. Yamato indeed identifies herself as male, and we shall also addresss as such since that's what is stated in the manga. There's no problem with that, but I cannot stand when someone puts words in the author's mouth that he didn't explicitly said.
ooh, so you're just gross
got it
What I mean is "I don't think it would be a bad thing necessarily if Zoro was related to Ryuuma, but I'm genuinely confused why people are concluding that when I don't think that's what the story is telling us," and I apologize if that wasn't clear.
all right, fair enough
Not really, just brutally honest.
and gross, no need to explain
That's rude, man.
Nah, I agree with him that you can easily it that way given Kaido's use of the word "either". Especially since it's not like Luffy ever brought up Joy Boy to Kaido in the first place, so there's a good chance he had someone in his thoughts when he was saying that.
would you happen to remember which chapter this was said? I wanna peek at the Japanese for clarification - it IS possible he might've thought of Ace
@dirt:
would you happen to remember which chapter this was said? I wanna peek at the Japanese for clarification - it IS possible he might've thought of Ace
Ch. 1014, you're welcome.
Just like people pointing out the connections between Luffy and Roger suggest they're directly related, huh?
fwiw it doesn't matter to me much if Zoro is a descendant of Ryuuma, though I'd obviously be interested to see how that's confirmed/addressed in the story or SBS or whatever. I just feel like I'm reading a different manga than everyone else when I read internet discourse sometimes - the conclusion of 'Shimotsuki Zoro' from this chapter feels like bizarre mental gymnastics to me. oh well.
For me the whole grind to a halt info dump with complimentary illustrations is too clunky and on the nose to be unintentional, and since we already know Zoro was brought up in a Wano exile community, we have no idea who his parents were and Oda has been cagey about giving away his heritage in SBS questions it all points in one direction and i personally don't even think of it as a leap to an assumption, maybe a dainty skip at most.
welp, and there's that も
so it's likely he was referencing Ace because everyone else thought it would be Ace
Zoro being related to Shimotsuki family from Wano is fine. It's just a way to connect characters to settings and story. It didn't change his efforts or personality.
But Sunnachi being his catchphrase, that he apparently said so often that Momo heard it even though having been on the ship for a few days is… a badly handled retcon. It could just have been a single use (seeing Momo and Kinemon reminded Zoro of his village and something the old guy said...)