If ####### than maybe there was a former Jack too, I mean Jack was like what eight years old at the time Oden died
Is this an assumption or its a spoiler?
If ####### than maybe there was a former Jack too, I mean Jack was like what eight years old at the time Oden died
Is this an assumption or its a spoiler?
Really curious what people will say in year when what Oda has stated in the text actually happens. Will that just be a lucky guess from people? Will people pretend all the other possibilities were very real too or will people actually take the step back and maybe look more at the text in the future?
Almost like this is a forum, where different people discuss the possibilities of what can happen and what can change in the narrative.
This is nothing new in this forum.
Is this an assumption or its a spoiler?
Assumption, I haven’t read this weeks spoilers
@Zik:
My post is very clear. As well as the one before that.
Flashbacks/sad pasts aren't always about dead mentors. Oden inspiring Yamato doesn't change that fact. Usopp's mom didn't inspire him, neither Sabo or Ace inspired Luffy and clearly Shanks isn't dead, Sanji's mom didn't inspire him, etc.
Doesn't matter if you want to change this from being about mentors or about who inspired the character.
It is clear, but who said flashbacks are always about dead mentors? what are you insinuating that i'm trying to change? thats what I dont get.
Is this an assumption or its a spoiler?
The info about Jack its from his Vivre Card. He's 28 currently, should've been 8 when Oden died.
I'm calling out people ignoring the text because that's what I base my viewpoint on.
I feel like people "ignoring" Yamato's 1016 affirmation is akin to "ignoring" that there was no need for Carrot to be in WCI, no need for Pedro to blow himself up in a manga that hates killing off characters, no need for Perospero to be the singular BMP to make it up the falls, and no need to include this little subplot that has nothing to do with Wano in an already extremely crowded arc. Nobody's ignoring either; we're dismissing the significance.
1. I don't mind people fanfictioning. But keep it to fanfictioning and not present it as analysis. Which was the original point. I'm calling out people ignoring the text because that's what I base my viewpoint on. If people want to imagine all these nice scenarios in their head that do not relate to the actual text that's cool with me but again don't pretend to call it analysis…
2. Again what am I reducing? You're literally stating people have their own takes that go beyond the text. I'm literally calling that what it is. There is no reduction. It's literally calling a spade a spade. As for their value I leave it up to everyone themselves to decide but whatever value you assign that it won't change anything that was actually stated in the manga.
I don't understand what bar that is that makes it qualify as a very real possibility. Like under these terms it's possible that Luffy will skip gear 5 and jump to gear 10. It's possible that Zoro grows a 3rd permanent arm as a power up. If all that's needed for "it's possible" is the inability to prove that possibility wrong then that bar is very low.
Everyone's bar is different. If thinking there's even a 10% chance that Yamato won't join or a 10% chance that Carrot will is comparable to a three-armed Zoro then all I can conclude is that we have very different bars.
I don't get the resistance against actually looking at the text and really thinking about why Oda is writing the story in the way that he has.
Oda might be telling us that Yamato is going to join. Oda might be reinforcing parallels between Yamato and Oden. Oda might be setting those parallels up to smash them down later. Oda might be having Yamato defy Kaido's desires so that she can become a good shogun in a monkey paw twist. Oda might have needed an extra bit of dialogue to help the page flow better. I've thought about it. The problem is I haven't dismissed all the wrong possibilities.
Or even divorced from that as an exercise try to write a small story yourself. I feel like that should give people a pretty good understanding about intentionality, like even if you suck at doing it you'll find you're actually trying to put thought in all kinds of things.
I've written 13 90,000+ word books and then a 1900+ page webcomic. The first 10 books were pretty garbage imo. I'd like to think I got better. Maybe I didn't.
I dunno how else I can impress again how people see Oda stating things redundantly and then somehow still conclude "nah Oda is lying to us!"
Zou beat us over the head with how the minks were brutally victimized for something they knew nothing about. And that incessant lying led to (imo) the best post-TS moment thus far.
4. I just get the feeling this is a pretty poor defense of trying to paint what I do as being mean when honestly I frankly don't see it that way at all.
Silence isn't mean. Saying you disagree or have more faith in your own analysis isn't mean. Telling people they don't know how to read properly is, well, less than completely polite.
there might as well not be anything ever to discuss anymore.
Great, I can rejoin the other tribalistic, sportsteaming fanfiction writers in silence.
Vivi is part of the arc, if only indirectly, so I'm going with her.
I would accept any kind of stupid twist to make it work, like her eating a Devil Fruit and stuff. It's tragic that it took me so long to understand how great her character really was, but I'm blaming the anime for it.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
If we're changing the topic, I have always believed Vivi will return before Laugh Tale. And that Smoker will join the Straw Hats. I never believed in number theory because of Smoker.
I'm happy to talk about Smoker joining for a while. Fifteen years since I first posted about Smoker. Still waiting. Never give up. No surrender. Spread your wings and fly. You deserve to be a champion.
One of the things I want to see before the series end is Vivi sailing with the Strawhats, at least as a guest. Hopefully we'll see some of that once we learn what happened at the reverie.
And I haven't heard anyone root for Smoker in a while, so that's nice to see.
Absolutely no one. Toned down just-the-strawhats for an arc or two so we can get that sweet bonding time before the finale, and so remaining arcs can take less than two years apiece..
Not gonna happen but.
That was the dream after Wano, then Caribou came and crushed it.
Jokes aside I wish this could happen too. Especially now that we have Jinbei with them, I want to see him hang out and go on goofy adventures. Hopefully Oda can cram some small moment in, maybe once they've kicked Caribou off the ship or before Laugh Tale.
@Big:
Zou beat us over the head with how the minks were brutally victimized for something they knew nothing about. And that incessant lying led to (imo) the best post-TS moment thus far.
How do you bring this example while not mentioning what the massive difference for Zou was? Do you even understand why this example is absolutely terrible?
Hint Minks lying paid of in their characterization at being immensely loyal. Now explain to me this possibility in which Oda pays Yamato's character arc of by making him do the opposite of his wants and conform to villains wants.
I'm super eager to hear. Like this exact point has already been brought up by others. Misdirection done by authors is always done to veil a better reveal than the one most readers would expect.
Intrinsically I see it as immensely unlikely that even our god Oda has something that pays off Yamato better than our expectation by having their fate run counter to their multiple times stated wishes.
As for the point about Carrot not needing to be in WCI, it's literally not comparable. Buggy didn't need to be at Marineford, Luffy didn't need to punch a Celestial Dragon at Sabaondy, Sabo didn't need to be at Dressrosa there is literally tons of things "that didn't need to be/happen" that argument is literally worthless in the context of what focus the story presents, what themes it builds up and how it moves its characters along their arcs.
I mean I say it again what will people tell themselves after this is over and certain things will fall right as Oda has told them to us months in advance?
Flatout again cannot understand why else someone would just push one character against everything and anything the story presents if it wasn't tribalism vs dissecting the info the story represents. Again I'd change my opinions in a heartbeat if new story info surfaces that would recontextualize things. I do not get the obsession in the least. But it's all moot cause again imo in about a year I think time will just prove this right as time did prove Paulie people wrong who also held out ridiculously long post Franky flashback.
Lastly since you cited some writing experience I gotta ask you then how an author being extremely redundant about something seem to have no meaning to you. Like literally if the result should be something else Oda easily could have not hammered us with Yams wanting to go to sea several times he could have ducked the issue mentioning it one time and then evolving it into something different. Instead he chose to be redundant with "here this character REALLY wants this I will make him state it several times"….. mmmh I dunno but to anyone that has a semblance of narrative understanding this should mean something.
Again if you have the scenario that is actually much more satisfying for Yams and pays them off better by running against their motivations, I'm ready to see the light.
But until I'm reading something like that I'll hold it to the same iron conviction I had in the Oden fakeout week that Oda is not a hack that would revive that character in any shape or form. I don't think Oda is a hack that will westworld season 2 his characters.
Moving on, I also support Vivi's comeback wholeheartedly. Even if she doesn't participate in the big fights, she would support the crew behind the screen as politician. In a war, army logistics and politics are as important as the fighting force, after all.
No need for DF or anything bullshit like that imo.
The info about Jack its from his Vivre Card. He's 28 currently, should've been 8 when Oden died.
Actually I was talking about Pizarro being the former King.
Actually I was talking about Pizarro being the former King.
By my understanding, that's some speculation that's been floating around for a while - Pizzaro's epithet is "Corrupt King", he has horns that fit well with the aesthetic of the Beast Pirates, and given Jack's age (he would've been the same age as Momo and Yamato during the battle against Oden), some people have floated the idea that the "Jack" silhouette during Kinemon's initial recounting of the Akazaya's past (back in Act 1, chapter 920) might have belonged to someone else and that, if so, Pizzaro's design would fit, leading to speculation that he was the original "King" and the Calamities' names/titles got shifted around when he left, which also opened a slot for the current Jack.
Don't have any particular thoughts on the theory, myself, but so far as I know, it's unrelated to any current spoilers.
Pizarro being a former Beast Pirate feels like a weak theory since there's not much evidence to directly support it beyond 'hey he fits the age and aesthetic', which has never really proven useful for past theories. All we really know is that he was a poopy actual king from the blue seas. Though I can buy that there was another person before Jack.
Also the readon for Pizarro's epithet was already revealed in a vivre card. He is basically the cooler Wapol.
Oh, to be sure. Not making any statements as to the theory's veracity, just pointing out that it's one I've seen floating around.
Sticking to Yamato is Kaido's clone made by VP. CP0 killed it, but the speculation can still come back to life.
time will just prove this right
It very likely will. To be clear, I do think Yamato is more likely to join than Carrot. I just think it would be a massive disservice to the latter for her to randomly become a Kozuki retainer or start a new pirate crew or to hop on home to chew grass.
Again if you have the scenario that is actually much more satisfying for Yams and pays them off better by running against their motivations, I'm ready to see the light.
I can easily craft a scenario that I think would be more satisfying for her. I do not believe I could craft any scenario that you would find more satisfying.
Lastly since you cited some writing experience I gotta ask you then how an author being extremely redundant about something seem to have no meaning to you.
Although I think 1016 in and of itself has no meaning, I don't think the redundancy in general has no meaning. I think in all likelihood it means Yamato is going to join. I gave several possible alternative meanings that I thought would be more interesting.
Keeping it short this time since this argument is proving to be a massive waste of energy for both of us.
I honestly think Yamato has enough between Oden and Kaido. He fights like her daddy and follows the code and lifestyle of his infamous nemesis.
Just waiting on that Kaido flashback right now, that's the only angle we're not aware of.
It is clear, but who said flashbacks are always about dead mentors? what are you insinuating that i'm trying to change? thats what I dont get.
Yamato getting a flashback and the likelihood of it was being discussed.
The focus was solely on him not having a dead mentor flashback as if he didn't have one or it was Oden being settled for to play that role.
I've been saying Yamato's flashback doesn't need to involve a dead mentor at all since not all flashbacks are about dead mentors. To start Sanji's mentor isn't even dead. Then there's stuff like Kuina or Sabo and Sanji's mom or Usopp's mom and Brook's crew.
The flashbacks are mainly tragic events in a characters past who help form (and inform the reader) of who they are today and why as far as motivations and goals. All a potential strawhat needs to shoot their chances up of joining is a sad past. Not specifically a dead mentor.
My first reply to you basically said that.
Anyone can have sad past and Yamato was quick to point out to the audience of being beaten by daddy. We know it's going to be tragic, however the point of the flashback is to flesh out the basis of their influences that we see in present time. It's expected for us going into a flashback about Yamato to see and know why she admires Oden so much, when/where she found his logbook, and any loose connections made prior so those connections that were mentioned earlier on makes sense and give weight to Yamato's Oden obsession to the point of role-playing and justify her present actions. However, I feel Kaido's backstory will ultimately hold more narrative weight considering it sets the stage for not only Rocks/Rox lore, but hopefully outlining why Wano is so ultimately important for him to choose as a pirate stronghold nation, the significance behind the DF Yamato ate, and why Kaido and Yamato believe it binds the latter to this country. Those are the more narrative stakes I've seen, especially since none of Oden's retainers know why they had to wait 20 years for events to occur.
So far, Yamato has claimed about following Oden's will, but also living like Oden, which are 2 different things. Oden's will is opening Wano's borders and living like Oden is just going out to sea and exploring free from restrictions. Which, in my opinion, if this flashback of Yamato should explore or allude to anything, a mentor/familial-like figure that instilled a will/goal should be one of them since there's no continuing "goal" to sail the sea to open a country's borders because that will be ultimately be achieved once Kaido is driven out and Orochi is removed from his Shogun position since Oden himself was going to do that when he returned from his voyage with Roger unless proven otherwise in the story. That, I feel, is where a lot of debate is since saying "I just want to leave and go on adventures" isn't enough to get you on a Thousand Sunny voyage. It didn't work in debates regarding Carrot in the past prior to chapter 877/878, where Pedro alluded to Luffy and the Straw Hats bringing the Dawn of the World for their people (something we have discussed is built into her character arc to understanding), I'm going to hold Yamato to that same standard.
Moving on, I also support Vivi's comeback wholeheartedly. Even if she doesn't participate in the big fights, she would support the crew behind the screen as politician. In a war, army logistics and politics are as important as the fighting force, after all.
No need for DF or anything bullshit like that imo.
Agree if its just Vivi back as a guest.
If it's as an actual crew member, I'm gonna need that logia.
Hint Minks lying paid of in their characterization at being immensely loyal. Now explain to me this possibility in which Oda pays Yamato's character arc of by making him do the opposite of his wants and conform to villains wants.
That's a complete non-issue. The characters don't operate on having to stick with any particular motivation, or refuse to abide to what villains want them to do.
Just an example, Sanji is still regarded as a Vinsmoke and has a raid suit designed specifically for him. And Sanji refused to use the Raid Suit because he holds his own humanity in higher value than the technology of Germa66.
Yet when push comes to shove, we see Sanji using the Raid Suit regardless. This is a 'doing what the villain wants' moment, but it's framed through the main character's own decision to follow through on using Germa's technology, even though his whole character has been written to completely disavow any connection to it. And it's built up in the story to be an absolutely awesome decision, because we see how well adapted he is to using it and it's an added level of depth to Sanji's character for having the Raid Suit available to him.
As for Yamato, we don't know what his fate will be yet. The curious thing about Yamato is that all of his motivations are tied to an identity crisis of being Oden. As a reader, we don't know where the line is drawn for where he is making his own decisions, and where he is making decisions for the sake of believing himself to be Oden. There's a common theme to his character of wanting freedom, and there are many layers to that theme. There's wanting himself to be free from the shackles that binds him to Onagashima, wanting to be free of Kaido's overbearing control, wanting Wano to be free and open its borders, wanting to carry the will of Ace and be free to join Luffy's crew. Yet there's also an underlying motivation to his character that is also caging him - the belief that he is Oden because he wants to be like Oden. That itself restricts his character from being free and growing as an individual, and Oda has made it very clear that Yamato has identity issues. When he first introduces himself to Momo, he says he is Oden, his father. And he goes by another name, Yamato. That's an identity crisis. When Yamato makes a decision to do something, is it because he is doing it because he believes Oden would do it? Or because he wants to do it? He is living in Odens shadow. And, personal interpretation, I would want to see his character grow to the point where he frees himself from Oden's shadow before he actually makes any decision to join Luffy's crew, because right now his main motivation for doing so is literally to live in Oden's Shadow. That is not a clear motivator for this character, to always be driven to 'Be like Oden', because Yamato is not Oden. It is confusing to me, as a reader, to acknowledge the motivations of a character that has such clear identity issues.
Vivi has a similar thing going for her, where she took up the mantle of Miss Wednesday to infiltrate Baroque Works, and effectively became a Strawhat Pirate in the adventures. Her choice not to join the Strawhats is motivated by realizing her identity and role in the world, as Princess of Alabasta, and not just joining the crew because of a surface motivation of that's what I want to do
Yamato's role is not clear at all, because we know barely anything about his actual intended role in the story. Kaido just wants him to be Shogun and have a high ranking position within his crew. Yamato wants to be like Oden, for reasons we don't fully understand, and wishes to go exploring with Luffy…. because Ace ended up dying before he had a chance to join his crew. And at the surface of it, it totally makes sense for Yamato to want to join Luffy's crew, and do everything in his power to help the 'revolution', since they're all aligned with the purpose of taking down Kaido and freeing Wano. But what happens after that is still up in question, because we haven't gotten the full picture of Yamato's motivations, and if there are other options he may want to explore as a means of growing himself as a character beyond the choice to join Luffy's crew just because he was unable to join Ace, and because he's being compelled to be like Oden and that he deserves to be taken along for the ride. Is his motivation to join Luffy enough in the story to carry through to having him as a crewmember, and are we meant to take this completely at face value. We have to wait and see the outcome of the arc to really fully grasp the big picture.
It's going to be plausible that Luffy would embrace Yamato for helping in the fight and helping the crew, and accept him as a new Nakama. And it's just as plausible that he could give Yamato a tough-love moment and tell him to figure out his identity issues and make sure he's not making these decisions for the sake of being Oden, similar to how he gave Momo a tough-love moment that forces him to grow up instead of falling back on childish tendencies. I can see both being possible, because I do see Yamato having some critical character flaws that need to be addressed before I personally would accept him into the crew.
Maybe the 'Being Oden' thing will be carried over as a running gag. But personally, I think everyone in the crew should be confident in being a Strawhat because they chose to be, and not because they're being driven to fulfill someone else's dream.
@Big:
It very likely will. To be clear, I do think Yamato is more likely to join than Carrot. I just think it would be a massive disservice to the latter for her to randomly become a Kozuki retainer or start a new pirate crew or to hop on home to chew grass.
Hey I'm pretty sure there were plenty Paulie supporters unhappy with him staying on Water 7 just to become VP of Galley La.
Or even worse, Wiper, who stuck around to basically be a guardian of a place that is no longer in dispute.
If its a disservice just gonna have to deal with it like so many others.
Carrot wants to explore the world, how come starting a new pirate crew that does exactly what she wants is wrong…
Kinemon's initial recounting of the Akazaya's past (back in Act 1, chapter 920)
Having just reread the chap, it just struck me how stronger the Oden and Yamato parallel became.
Kinnemon basically lays out what happened in the past with Oden (with everything he is aware of) which is Oda telling not showing and then proceeds to show it all over in the Oden flashback starting in chapter 959.
Oda basically did the same thing with Yamato having parts of his past being told as far as his devil fruit, why he was chained up, etc. Hard for me not to think now Oda is going to actually show all of that and more in a flashback.
@Zik:
Oda basically did the same thing with Yamato having parts of his past being told as far as his devil fruit, why he was chained up, etc. Hard for me not to think now Oda is going to actually show all of that and more in a flashback.
Oda does that all the time. He drops breadcrumbs then launches into the thing.
Like with Chopper, we knew he ate the human fruit, that he was feared by the people and kciked out from his own deer family for being weird, that he was trained as a doctor, and there was a vague hint of Hiriluk, all within thw TWO chapters between learning he could talk and the flashback starting.
Or with Sanji we knew he owed Zeff everything and refused to waste food…
Brook we knew his entire deal with Laboon before the flashback, including how part of his crew left early so Laboon could know about it, but we didn't know about the final moments with the last song.
Law we knew a ton about his history with Dofla and Vergo but we didn't know anything about Corazaon.
Jimbei we knew all about Fisher Tiger, and we knew all the elements that led to SHirahoshi's situation with being a captive, but we didn't know about Otahime or why the brothers did their stupid dancing.
Rebecca's flashback was extra weird since we got it backwards and with a memory wipe.
He does it all the time.
Carrot wants to explore the world, how come starting a new pirate crew that does exactly what she wants is wrong…
Because that's only her base desire. The whole conversation spanning hundreds of pages in regards to Carrot has been about inheriting Pedro's will, which involves understanding the Straw Hat importance in ushering the Dawn of the World. Something, while Carrot doesn't know yet, is still in her mind.
!
You're kinda taking that little panel completely out of context, lets see.
•Carrot clearly states she wants to avenge Pedro
•loses
•"Keep going forward" is the one and only comment she recalls, which in this context, it logically means to keep going forward into avenging Pedro.
It ain't no deep-meaning stuff at all.
You're kinda taking that little panel completely out of context, lets see.
•Carrot clearly states she wants to avenge Pedro
•loses
•"Keep going forward" is the one and only comment she recalls, which in this context, it logically means to keep going forward into avenging Pedro.It ain't no deep-meaning stuff at all.
The line was a part of a bigger dialogue that was paraphrased. Also, the meaning behind the lines have nothing to do about being avenged, but does serve to show contrast to what Perospero says later.
What you're doing is just ignoring what came before it to mean nothing.
"Keep moving forward" as a connection to accepting pedro's will (which in no way links to sailing with the SHs) is such a vague/poor way to convey her intent to sail, especially when lots of people are split on what it means exactly.
That and how oda normally dedicates chapters and lots of attention to any potential SH backstory really makes the carrot-pedro "flashback" look pathetic in comparison. Really, just go back to the chopper/hiriluk flashback to see how it tugs at your heartstrings. That should be the benchmark for how Oda convinces you that he/she/it is crewmate material.
"Keep moving forward" as a connection to accepting pedro's will (which in no way links to sailing with the SHs) is such a vague/poor way to convey her intent to sail, especially when lots of people are split on what it means exactly.
That and how oda normally dedicates chapters and lots of attention to any potential SH backstory really makes the carrot-pedro "flashback" look pathetic in comparison. Really, just go back to the chopper/hiriluk flashback to see how it tugs at your heartstrings. That should be the benchmark for how Oda convinces you that he/she/it is crewmate material.
That line was last uttered in a string of other things Pedro told Carrot and only Carrot. It was all last minute as they were running, after all. I still stand by what I said: Carrot understanding what Pedro meant will determine if she goes with the Straw Hats or not. Considering Pedro put heavy emphasis on the Straw Hats' journey, acknowledged Luffy to be a fitting successor to Roger, his own personal history and wanting to sail with Roger once he came to Zou to get the last Road Poneglyph from them but was denied, it's just a natural conclusion I made. For Carrot, that choice will ultimately determine where she goes in the narrative to be explored further or not.
If Oda wants to give Carrot a flashback, he'll do it under context that will make sense. Flashbacks are just a narrative tool Oda uses to explain a characters background influence for their current goals/behavior.
That's a complete non-issue. The characters don't operate on having to stick with any particular motivation, or refuse to abide to what villains want them to do.
Just an example, Sanji is still regarded as a Vinsmoke and has a raid suit designed specifically for him. And Sanji refused to use the Raid Suit because he holds his own humanity in higher value than the technology of Germa66.
Yet when push comes to shove, we see Sanji using the Raid Suit regardless. This is a 'doing what the villain wants' moment, but it's framed through the main character's own decision to follow through on using Germa's technology, even though his whole character has been written to completely disavow any connection to it. And it's built up in the story to be an absolutely awesome decision, because we see how well adapted he is to using it and it's an added level of depth to Sanji's character for having the Raid Suit available to him.
As for Yamato, we don't know what his fate will be yet. The curious thing about Yamato is that all of his motivations are tied to an identity crisis of being Oden. As a reader, we don't know where the line is drawn for where he is making his own decisions, and where he is making decisions for the sake of believing himself to be Oden. There's a common theme to his character of wanting freedom, and there are many layers to that theme. There's wanting himself to be free from the shackles that binds him to Onagashima, wanting to be free of Kaido's overbearing control, wanting Wano to be free and open its borders, wanting to carry the will of Ace and be free to join Luffy's crew. Yet there's also an underlying motivation to his character that is also caging him - the belief that he is Oden because he wants to be like Oden. That itself restricts his character from being free and growing as an individual, and Oda has made it very clear that Yamato has identity issues. When he first introduces himself to Momo, he says he is Oden, his father. And he goes by another name, Yamato. That's an identity crisis. When Yamato makes a decision to do something, is it because he is doing it because he believes Oden would do it? Or because he wants to do it? He is living in Odens shadow. And, personal interpretation, I would want to see his character grow to the point where he frees himself from Oden's shadow before he actually makes any decision to join Luffy's crew, because right now his main motivation for doing so is literally to live in Oden's Shadow. That is not a clear motivator for this character, to always be driven to 'Be like Oden', because Yamato is not Oden. It is confusing to me, as a reader, to acknowledge the motivations of a character that has such clear identity issues.
Vivi has a similar thing going for her, where she took up the mantle of Miss Wednesday to infiltrate Baroque Works, and effectively became a Strawhat Pirate in the adventures. Her choice not to join the Strawhats is motivated by realizing her identity and role in the world, as Princess of Alabasta, and not just joining the crew because of a surface motivation of that's what I want to do
Yamato's role is not clear at all, because we know barely anything about his actual intended role in the story. Kaido just wants him to be Shogun and have a high ranking position within his crew. Yamato wants to be like Oden, for reasons we don't fully understand, and wishes to go exploring with Luffy…. because Ace ended up dying before he had a chance to join his crew. And at the surface of it, it totally makes sense for Yamato to want to join Luffy's crew, and do everything in his power to help the 'revolution', since they're all aligned with the purpose of taking down Kaido and freeing Wano. But what happens after that is still up in question, because we haven't gotten the full picture of Yamato's motivations, and if there are other options he may want to explore as a means of growing himself as a character beyond the choice to join Luffy's crew just because he was unable to join Ace, and because he's being compelled to be like Oden and that he deserves to be taken along for the ride. Is his motivation to join Luffy enough in the story to carry through to having him as a crewmember, and are we meant to take this completely at face value. We have to wait and see the outcome of the arc to really fully grasp the big picture.
It's going to be plausible that Luffy would embrace Yamato for helping in the fight and helping the crew, and accept him as a new Nakama. And it's just as plausible that he could give Yamato a tough-love moment and tell him to figure out his identity issues and make sure he's not making these decisions for the sake of being Oden, similar to how he gave Momo a tough-love moment that forces him to grow up instead of falling back on childish tendencies. I can see both being possible, because I do see Yamato having some critical character flaws that need to be addressed before I personally would accept him into the crew.
Maybe the 'Being Oden' thing will be carried over as a running gag. But personally, I think everyone in the crew should be confident in being a Strawhat because they chose to be, and not because they're being driven to fulfill someone else's dream.
I don't think you Sanji example is really doing what you think it does.
It's very simple Sanji using the suit despite hating Germa technology paid of the fact that he got the suit in the first place(cause let's be real Oda wouldn't have made it a thing if it wasn't supposed to be a thing and it pays off his character showing us that Sanji will value certain things more than his dislike of Germa).
So I feel like you're just kind of flying past why I brought the villain thing up and made the argument somehow about "heroes will never do what villains what here is the example" when that wasn't the statement at all.
It's about if anyone can see an actually real scenario of how Yam's arc goes that will be MORE satisfying than what Oda presents and thus pays off his misleading while also that arc trajectory involves going against his own wishes and follows what Kaido wanted him to do because this is the argument people are giving.
I don't see it and I have doubt that Oda has a grand plan on that as well. I'm just kind of confident in that Oda would have decided to be way more subtle about Yams in certain scenes if that were his intention. Vagueness gives room to play.
Like lets be very frank, there is a reason why I call Yamato retainer/will stay arguments fanfiction cause they all suck donkeyballs from a pure narrative perspective. If anyone actually has a scenario that is well written and makes actual narrative sense even if wrong I'll give it credit. And I'm sure if you're an actually good writer you can do it, I just do tend to think picking generally the least convoluted readings tends to be correct for most stories. Even stories with very respected twists are generally very clean about the info they give out beforehand.
Until Oden leaving Wa No and going with Roget to Raftel and thus allowing Kaidou and Orochi to torment the island and its citizens is at least presented in a questionable light beyond a joke scene, there is no narratively satisfying possibility of Yamato staying on the island, thats just how it is.
Because for whatever reason it could happen, you always will have the implication that Yamato gave up the dreams in order to stay and fulfill some kind of duty, and that has never been presented as fullfilling for a character. Its like Franky staying back to look after the gang.
If Oda highlights that Odens decision at least partly led to the current state and thus Yamato could do something Oden did not do or could not do ok (for example if the world government attacks at the end and opening the borders of Wano will automatically also open it up for dangers).
This has not happened though.
This thread always makes me think of that flash and substance episode of Justice League Unlimited.
That line was last uttered in a string of other things Pedro told Carrot and only Carrot. It was all last minute as they were running, after all. I still stand by what I said: Carrot understanding what Pedro meant will determine if she goes with the Straw Hats or not. Considering Pedro put heavy emphasis on the Straw Hats' journey, acknowledged Luffy to be a fitting successor to Roger, his own personal history and wanting to sail with Roger once he came to Zou to get the last Road Poneglyph from them but was denied, it's just a natural conclusion I made. For Carrot, that choice will ultimately determine where she goes in the narrative to be explored further or not.
If Oda wants to give Carrot a flashback, he'll do it under context that will make sense. Flashbacks are just a narrative tool Oda uses to explain a characters background influence for their current goals/behavior.
I mean, regardless of how much emphasis Pedro placed on the SHs (of which none of us even disputed), the fact remains that Carrot has spent a grand total of 0 specifically reflecting about "the dawn and why the SHs are core to that", nevermind even why sailing with them is a must to even achieve said goal. And this has been the case for the past 100 chapters.
(no, the "keep moving forward" isn't a thing, if the board cannot come to an agreement on what it exactly entails, whether its to "uphold" his dream, revenge or something else. Then its not a substantial point)
If you are to admit that a flashback is needed for Carrot to flesh out the character, that would imply that the 3 panels between her and Pedro were not sufficient in any way to convince us of crewmanship. In which we go back to how she's fallen off the face of the earth and that's a very bad sign for someone who Oda is supposed to sell us to as the potentially last crewmate.
I mean, regardless of how much emphasis Pedro placed on the SHs (of which none of us even disputed), the fact remains that Carrot has spent a grand total of 0 specifically reflecting about "the dawn and why the SHs are core to that", nevermind even why sailing with them is a must to even achieve said goal. And this has been the case for the past 100 chapters.
(no, the "keep moving forward" isn't a thing, if the board cannot come to an agreement on what it exactly entails, whether its to "uphold" his dream, revenge or something else. Then its not a substantial point)If you are to admit that a flashback is needed for Carrot to flesh out the character, that would imply that the 3 panels between her and Pedro were not sufficient in any way to convince us of crewmanship. In which we go back to how she's fallen off the face of the earth and that's a very bad sign for someone who Oda is supposed to sell us to as the potentially last crewmate.
It is stated, in-narrative, she will understand, so the conclusion to come is that she will get to it. And when the time comes, that argument of how she handles the Dawn prophecy can be disputed with or without the Straw Hats. You don't determine if Oda does it, last I checked."Keep moving forward" is a thing. The fact it came up again showed it was and that plotline never left.
I never claimed that a flashback was needed for Carrot. Read again, I said that if Carrot were to get a flashback, it would be in a context that makes sense as Oda uses flashbacks to explain background influences to elaborate a character's goals/ current behaviors. I believe ultimately taking into consideration what Pedro said will determine the course Carrot has in the story.
As for Yamato, we don't know what his fate will be yet. The curious thing about Yamato is that all of his motivations are tied to an identity crisis of being Oden. As a reader, we don't know where the line is drawn for where he is making his own decisions, and where he is making decisions for the sake of believing himself to be Oden. There's a common theme to his character of wanting freedom, and there are many layers to that theme. There's wanting himself to be free from the shackles that binds him to Onagashima, wanting to be free of Kaido's overbearing control, wanting Wano to be free and open its borders, wanting to carry the will of Ace and be free to join Luffy's crew. Yet there's also an underlying motivation to his character that is also caging him - the belief that he is Oden because he wants to be like Oden. That itself restricts his character from being free and growing as an individual, and Oda has made it very clear that Yamato has identity issues. When he first introduces himself to Momo, he says he is Oden, his father. And he goes by another name, Yamato. That's an identity crisis. When Yamato makes a decision to do something, is it because he is doing it because he believes Oden would do it? Or because he wants to do it? He is living in Odens shadow. And, personal interpretation, I would want to see his character grow to the point where he frees himself from Oden's shadow before he actually makes any decision to join Luffy's crew, because right now his main motivation for doing so is literally to live in Oden's Shadow. That is not a clear motivator for this character, to always be driven to 'Be like Oden', because Yamato is not Oden. It is confusing to me, as a reader, to acknowledge the motivations of a character that has such clear identity issues.
Whether you want to lean in to Yamato having identity issues or not, its the same conclusion. If he sticks to wanting to be Oden then he will eventually open Wano's borders and go exploring and adventuring with the strawhats. If he suddenly drops everything Oden to "truly" be free then he'll still leave Wano to join Luffy cuz those were desires he expressed and formed back when he met Ace that were not Oden-related.
I really don't see how Yamato's Oden shtick is that confusing. Its been clear to me Oda has been doing a pretty blatant parallel. He even changed the order of things to make it clear to the reader Yamato will help stop Kaido and open Wano's borders then be free to join the strawhats.
Vivi has a similar thing going for her, where she took up the mantle of Miss Wednesday to infiltrate Baroque Works, and effectively became a Strawhat Pirate in the adventures. Her choice not to join the Strawhats is motivated by realizing her identity and role in the world, as Princess of Alabasta, and not just joining the crew because of a surface motivation of that's what I want to do
Vivi had no dream, no flashback/sad past, no clear crew position, no desire to be a pirate. It being framed that it was a hard decision to stay is simply cuz the strawhats became her friends.
Yamato wants to be like Oden, for reasons we don't fully understand, and wishes to go exploring with Luffy….
I thought it was obvious he wants to be like Oden cuz he identifies A LOT with Oden; sons of a big shot and expected as the son to behave and do certain things
not because they're being driven to fulfill someone else's dream.
Being Oden really has nothing to do with being a strawhat on a surface level. Its cuz Yamato thinks Luffy may just be the guy to become pirate king that may be a connection.
Other than that its cuz of Ace and Yamato following Luffy's journey.
It is stated, in-narrative, she will understand, so the conclusion to come is that she will get to it. And when the time comes, that argument of how she handles the Dawn prophecy can be disputed with or without the Straw Hats. You don't determine if Oda does it, last I checked."Keep moving forward" is a thing. The fact it came up again showed it was and that plotline never left.
But at what point does this plotline need to continue on as a significant enough factor? I dunno, no one here is disputing that "maybe", Oda will remember to pick up on it in some way or form. Just that his lack of focus or attention given should already show he doesn't see it as important enough to highlight consistently. I don't need to prove anything when Oda himself hasn't touched the subject ever since Wano started other than a vague "keep moving forward" that is open-ended enough to where the thread is uncertain of what exactly it means (remembering "moving forward" when she's down has what exactly to do with the dawn?)
At some point if I had to keep holding on to single panels to "prove" something as significant as crewmateship, then maybe i should take a step back and realize if the current stance is solid enough to stand on.
I never claimed that a flashback was needed for Carrot. Read again, I said that if Carrot were to get a flashback, it would be in a context that makes sense as Oda uses flashbacks to explain background influences to elaborate a character's goals/ current behaviors. I believe ultimately taking into consideration what Pedro said will determine the course Carrot has in the story.
So do you think what we've seen of Carrot is sufficient enough to sell her onto us as potentially the final crewmate, as when all the past strawhats had when their flashbacks were clearly shown to us? Cause honestly you didn't really address the key issue at hand and implicitly admitted that she needed elaboration on her goals whatsoever.
Oda does that all the time. He drops breadcrumbs then launches into the thing.
Well some were trying to say that with Yamato Oda was telling and not going to show.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Because that's only her base desire. The whole conversation spanning hundreds of pages in regards to Carrot has been about inheriting Pedro's will, which involves understanding the Straw Hat importance in ushering the Dawn of the World. Something, while Carrot doesn't know yet, is still in her mind.
Nothing in that panel has to do with following or knowing why the strawhats are important.
It literally says keep moving forward. It seems more of an indication to give up revenge or avenging me (Pedro).
You're kinda taking that little panel completely out of context, lets see.
•Carrot clearly states she wants to avenge Pedro
•loses
•"Keep going forward" is the one and only comment she recalls, which in this context, it logically means to keep going forward into avenging Pedro.It ain't no deep-meaning stuff at all.
Whether or not she joins, this is not at all the logical conclusion from this chapter. "I'm sacrificing myself so that you can sacrifice yourself to avenge me," said no character in the history of fiction. Pedro wasn't dying so that Carrot would come back to WCI to kill Perospero. That makes absolutely no sense.
This thread always makes me think of that flash and substance episode of Justice League Unlimited.
So who's Trickster and who's Mirror Master?
@Zik:
So who's Trickster and who's Mirror Master?
I was more thinking that as a whole this thread is Orion looking for a hidden subtext to explain why the Flash isn't simply what he appears to be.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Whether or not she joins, this is not at all the logical conclusion from this chapter. "I'm sacrificing myself so that you can sacrifice yourself to avenge me," said no character in the history of fiction. Pedro wasn't dying so that Carrot would come back to WCI to kill Perospero. That makes absolutely no sense.
Obviously Carrot didn't think she was sacrificing herself in her attempt at revenge.
Carrot was never going to kill Perospero. I'd argue nobody actually will so its not even worth bringing up.
It's entirely possible there could've been another scenario where Carrot jumped Peros with Wanda and Pekoms, and the other Nox members (all in sulong form) to avenge him that way. Plus battle wise it'd hold up. Then that would be that.
Oda would differently and I think everyone agrees he will do something with it but as of right now none of it seems to be about Carrot joining the strawhats. It doesn't even seem to be connected to the dawn or why the strawhats will be the crew to bring it about.
@Zik:
Well some were trying to say that with Yamato Oda was telling and not going to show.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Nothing in that panel has to do with following or knowing why the strawhats are important.
It literally says keep moving forward. It seems more of an indication to give up revenge or avenging me (Pedro).
From where the quote originates from, that's where the line is derived from and was used in antithesis to what Perospero said.
@Zik:
Whether you want to lean in to Yamato having identity issues or not, its the same conclusion. If he sticks to wanting to be Oden then he will eventually open Wano's borders and go exploring and adventuring with the strawhats. If he suddenly drops everything Oden to "truly" be free then he'll still leave Wano to join Luffy cuz those were desires he expressed and formed back when he met Ace that were not Oden-related.
At face value, that is exactly what it is, and its because we have nothing to base any further motivation than that. And I am not discounting Oda having Yamatos motivations clear front and centre, proclaiming wanting to join Luffy and not just a general 'go out to sea'. Its a very specific thing to say, and mentioned multiple times, so the chances are incredibly high for this to happen.
But it doesn't mean it is set in stone, because its still too early to really tell. And I'm not just saying this as some arbitrary reason, but by pointing out that Yamato is a character who is proclaiming a need to join the crew, and we don't know exactly how Luffy will react by the end of the arc. Has Luffy ever declined an offer to join? I think this may be the first time anyone has proclaimed having to join the crew in the series.
Vivi had no dream, no flashback/sad past, no clear crew position, no desire to be a pirate. It being framed that it was a hard decision to stay is simply cuz the strawhats became her friends.
Vivi had a lot of character growth throughout the Alabasta arc, both in favour of joining the crew and in wanting to save Alabasta. The dream thing is the only thing she really lacked, and her motivation was centered on wanting Alabasta to be freed from conflict. We can only look at her in retrospect to say her choice to stay in Alabasta is the more reasonable choice. During the arc? People had already accepted her as an unofficial crewmember, and literally still see her as an extended member now. Its well beyond dreams and role, it was in the way the character grew with the crew. Even the 'Dream' requirement or wanting to be a pirate is all reader-generated necessities, based on how other Strawhats were introduced. Had she actually joined, then she would be setting a precedent that molds can be broken.
I don't particularly think any rules need apply because Oda is literally going to be defining and redefining those rules with any and every character that joins the crew. Vivi had no dream, Vivi had no role, Vivi had no hard choices to make. Well, neither does Yamato right now. What is his dream? To leave on Luffys crew like Oden joined Roger? What is his role? Ship guard because thats what you'd like it to be? And does he have any hard choices to make other than joining the crew? No, because he doesn't want to be Shogun of Wano anyways? All of these are implied answers from a readers perspective, not clearly outlined narrative reasons. And thats sort of my point, where information we have on Yamato is still very surface level, and it doesn't fit the puzzle until we actually know what the full picture looks like. We will only be able to see in retrospect, after he does (or does not) join the crew. Everything else right now is just implied that he will join the crew for various reasons that we can imply would be fleshed out later. Yet none of that is actually fully explained if we are to compare to how characters like Vivi also lacked a dream or role on the ship or flashback with dead mentor etc.
I do think Yamato will join because of how strong he is being connected in the narrative. Luffy connection, Ace connection, very skilled fighter, proclaiming wanting to join Luffys crew, parallels with Oden and Roger, etc. That being said, we still know very little about Yamato himself. I do think a flashback would be able to give us more insight.
And at the same time I still think there is room to consider alternative scenarios, whatever it may be.
I thought it was obvious he wants to be like Oden cuz he identifies A LOT with Oden; sons of a big shot and expected as the son to behave and do certain things
And thats fine as a reader interpretation. That is what we're shown at face value.
And that applied to other characters too in retrospect. Sanji treats women good because he loves women. Nami steals money because she's a greedy thief. Thats what it is at face value, until we get flashbacks or arcs that throroughly explore these character motivations.
And I'm simply pointing out we don't have that depth with Yamato yet.
Will any depth change his motivation for wanting to join the crew? Maybe, maybe not. But it will help us figure out how legitimate his motivations will be, and whether it fits the Strawhats goals. This is the first time we really had a character proclaiming to join Luffys crew, so we're in new territory here.
Being Oden really has nothing to do with being a strawhat on a surface level. Its cuz Yamato thinks Luffy may just be the guy to become pirate king that may be a connection.
Other than that its cuz of Ace and Yamato following Luffy's journey.
Its heavily implied, and I agree. We still don't fully know the contents of Odens journal too, so we're all assuming this to be the case. And yes, there is a lot of inheriting Aces Will being thrown around this arc, so there is that too.
I simply think we need to consider that this information is still up to interpretation at the moment, since we don't have the full picture yet.
But at what point does this plotline need to continue on as a significant enough factor? I dunno, no one here is disputing that "maybe", Oda will remember to pick up on it in some way or form. Just that his lack of focus or attention given should already show he doesn't see it as important enough to highlight consistently. I don't need to prove anything when Oda himself hasn't touched the subject ever since Wano started other than a vague "keep moving forward" that is open-ended enough to where the thread is uncertain of what exactly it means (remembering "moving forward" when she's down has what exactly to do with the dawn?)
At some point if I had to keep holding on to single panels to "prove" something as significant as crewmateship, then maybe i should take a step back and realize if the current stance is solid enough to stand on.
The line is just paraphrased from a larger part of a monologue. It's debated if it means that will influence Carrot's decision to join the crew or not, but the entire monologue was directed solely for Carrot's attention when it was made and the last things he talked about to her was about the Dawn of the World. The only thing I try to "prove" is if this will be enough for her to be a Straw Hat, but the rest is straight from the narrative. That's not open-ended.
So do you think what we've seen of Carrot is sufficient enough to sell her onto us as potentially the final crewmate, as when all the past strawhats had when their flashbacks were clearly shown to us? Cause honestly you didn't really address the key issue at hand and implicitly admitted that she needed elaboration on her goals whatsoever.
If what you're asking me is if I feel at present Carrot is sufficient enough as a character to be the final crewmate, then my answer is no since the point I've be making, several times, is that Carrot needs to understand why Luffy and the Straw Hats journey is significant and when she comes to that realization, then her actions from the story thereon will dictate what course of action she feels is necessary. That's when I feel it'll mark the end/near the end of her character arc for that decision to make sense.
However, what you have been saying is that because Carrot didn't have a proper flashback and the flashback she did get was a few panels, then its not indicative that she'll join the crew. Despite the fact there have been 2 characters that have joined the crew previously without a flashback established till later, but that's besides the point. The purpose of a flashback that we have seen is to explore characters motivations as well as past history to justify present actions and conditions. That is why we have a lot of the crew member's dreams and inherited will being previewed there. That's why we know Zoro wants to be the World Strongest Swordsman and the promise he made to Kuina, why Nami is greedy due to her poor upbringing and her natural cartography skills along with her dream of wanting to draw a map of the world, the reason for why Usopp lies, etc. Even when the Fishman Island flashback didn't display all of Jinbe's personal history, it was used to display the culture shift and history of the island and its residents and how much of that influences Jinbe today. That's why I'm looking forward to Yamato's flashback, to see beyond the Oden obsession and know if there's something more beyond "being Oden", a desire in of itself is a vague description of being free, or opening Wano's borders, a goal that will be accomplished upon this arc's conclusion.
Carrot's brief flashback back in chapter 878 was just to establish that the 2 characters who we believed had little to do with one another outside of being fellow tribesmen from different militia forces actually did have a relationship, as student and mentor. That way, his words the previous chapter does act like a passing of wills from the teacher to the student.
From where the quote originates from, that's where the line is derived from and was used in antithesis to what Perospero said.
Yeah but the emphasis is on "keep moving forward". Otherwise it'd be a much bigger speech bubble next to the floating head.
@Zik:
Obviously Carrot didn't think she was sacrificing herself in her attempt at revenge.
Carrot was never going to kill Perospero. I'd argue nobody actually will so its not even worth bringing up.
It's entirely possible there could've been another scenario where Carrot jumped Peros with Wanda and Pekoms, and the other Nox members (all in sulong form) to avenge him that way. Plus battle wise it'd hold up. Then that would be that.
Oda would differently and I think everyone agrees he will do something with it but as of right now none of it seems to be about Carrot joining the strawhats. It doesn't even seem to be connected to the dawn or why the strawhats will be the crew to bring it about.
My point is, regardless of whether or not Carrot joins the Straw Hats, Pedro's words about moving forward had nothing to do with vengeance against Perospero. He wants Carrot to move forward, not look back.
@Zik:
Yeah but the emphasis is on "keep moving forward". Otherwise it'd be a much bigger speech bubble next tonthe floating head.
It's paraphrased from the entire speech Pedro gave Carrot, and later those words were to show contrast to what Perospero says to Carrot.
That quote is from right before he attacked Perospero and was about the crew. It was provoked by Luffy clashing with Kata that put things in perspective for Pedro. How can Carrot remember those words and not think of the whole message? That doesn't add up.
But it doesn't mean it is set in stone, because its still too early to really tell. And I'm not just saying this as some arbitrary reason, but by pointing out that Yamato is a character who is proclaiming a need to join the crew, and we don't know exactly how Luffy will react by the end of the arc. Has Luffy ever declined an offer to join? I think this may be the first time this happens in the series, since we rarely see any character proclaiming themselves to join the crew.
It's not set in stone yet but I don't think it's too early to tell at all. A lot of the signs are already there.
As for the chances of Luffy saying no i see them as slim to none. Just look at everyone he's let sail with him jist as passengers or as friends. Back when Vivi was Ms. Wednesday partnered with Mr. 9 Luffy just let them tag along despite how shady they were. He allies with Law after two brief meetings with him pre-timeskip. The way he initially let Robin join.
Luffy's a pretty good judge of character. It usually only takes for him to say that character is a good person for him to be satisfied but even when that's not the case he's still charitable with characters like Caribou.
Vivi had a lot of character growth throughout the Alabasta arc, both in favour of joining the crew and in wanting to save Alabasta. The dream thing is the only thing she really lacked, and her motivation was centered on wanting Alabasta to be freed from conflict. We can only look at her in retrospect to say her choice to stay in Alabasta is the more reasonable choice. During the arc? People had already accepted her as an unofficial crewmember, and literally still see her as an extended member now. Its well beyond dreams and role, it was in the way the character grew with the crew. Even the 'Dream' requirement or wanting to be a pirate is all reader-generated necessities, based on how other Strawhats were introduced. Had she actually joined, then she would be setting a precedent that molds can be broken.
I don't particularly think any rules need apply because Oda is literally going to be defining and redefining those rules with any and every character that joins the crew. Vivi had no dream, Vivi had no role, Vivi had no hard choices to make.
Oda isn't constantly redefining rules. Not when it comes to who joins the crew.
If you look at the patterns they've held true for 20+ years. At the time, sure fans accepted Vivi as an unofficial member but that doesn't mean anything.
Vivi didn't just lack a dream, she lacked any sort of sad past. There was no real flashback to events that made her the person she is today. It was pretty straightforward and clear with her. All the other strawhats had an arc focused on them, conflict with the arc's villain(s), a flashback to their past showing what were their motivations and revealed their dream. Vivi fell short of that. Oda hasn't changed that approach even with the extended period it took for Jimbe to join.
Oda could've easily made Vivi a princess that didn't really want to be one or given her a sister to be the adored popular princess. He didn't.
Or Oda could've broke from the pattern and had Vivi join without those things. He didn't. He stuck with his pattern and Robin joined.
A lot of what Oda is currently doing is mirroring how other strawhats have joined.
Well, neither does Yamato right now. What is his dream? To leave on Luffys crew like Oden joined Roger? What is his role? Ship guard because thats what you'd like it to be?
The arc is not over and the story has yet to reveal some of those things.
Don't know why you brought up ship guard. I'm not a fan of that.
All you're really asking is for me to speculate on what those answers may be or essentially you want the answers now. I say have some patience and let Oda answer that.
And does he have any hard choices to make other than joining the crew? No, because he doesn't want to be Shogun of Wano anyways?
I dont know where you got this or why you made it up but making a hard decision isn't a part of a new character joining the crew.
Brook, Usopp, Zoro, Jimbe, and Robin didn't have to make hard decisions in order to join. Brook said yes immediately. Usopp was planning to leave his home anyway. Zoro was stuck in a life or death situation and made the easy choice. Robin basically I'm in the crew now, deal with it. Jimbe had obligations and quickly got rid of them cuz he wanted to join Luffy so badly to the point he was willing to face a yonkou and potentially die.
No hard choices.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
My point is, regardless of whether or not Carrot joins the Straw Hats, Pedro's words about moving forward had nothing to do with vengeance against Perospero. He wants Carrot to move forward, not look back.
I don't think anyone is saying that.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It's paraphrased from the entire speech Pedro gave Carrot, and later those words were to show contrast to what Perospero says to Carrot.
Yeah, "keep moving forward". That is the focus.
If it was about the strawhats or the dawn Oda would've used completely different dialogue.