On paper Tama has a pretty good case except her age when it comes to various SH like criteria that said people forget that she literally has stated she wants to see the Wano with Momo as Shogun, being sick of being hungry and wanting to eat her fill.
Intrinsically to do that… well it's a pretty direct statement that for the immediate future she is much more interested in seeing Wano restored vs immediately setting out to sea.
Also this latest chapter is about giving us the gravity of the choice Momo is pushing. He is going to lose years physically in exchange for possible power. Shinobu isn't a fan here and as framed by the story she has to be convinced that things are bad enough and all will fail unless she does it.
There is just no way in hell Tama is going to get aged up losing those years just to have her sail, literally not a single of the hero characters are characterized in a way that they'd approve of that.
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima)
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Tama is Aisa or Rebecca, young characters who get inspired by Luffy and also create a bond for Luffy to the island, so he has a personal reason to fight. Admittedly Momo is that as well, but the state of Wa No was not tangible for Luffy until he saw how Tama suffered.
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Another thing I think is being undersold here is Oda quite loudly upgraded the abilities of Nami and Robin to damn near Yonko Commander level overnight. I think aesthetically speaking Yamato joining the crew has a lot to do with this. Despite being a self identified male , they'll still be contemporarily contrasted with Nami and Robin, even if they prefer to play with the boys. Ability wise I think this was a conscious effort on Oda's part because Yamato's a powerhouse, but they'll still be the Junior to that already established dominant female hierarchy amongst the crew, it's unavoidable.
But it would ring hollow if Nami and Robin remain solely portrayed as supplemental roleplayers amongst the crew. Hence Zeus and Giant Demon Fishman Palm Robin.
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Can anyone give me a refresher on the prominent figures to the strawhats and when they were revealed from their introductions?
Off the top of my head, were Zoro/Nami/Usopp/Chopper/Robin the only ones? Where Kureha/bellemere/hiriluk/saul etc were only revealed during the flashbacks and not shown explicitly beforehand? Just wanted to know if i'm wrong on this.
Funny that you say that, since I've actually made a panel analysis comparing Yamato's declaring to die for Momo or his desire to protect Wano against the ones he declares he will leave with Luffy and that he wants to live as free as Oden.
You mean the one where you tried to argue the importance of panel size against stuff the author has repeatedly emphasized, and was explicitly told it was flawed reasoning? Yea, i saw that post.
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You mean the one where you tried to argue the importance of panel size against stuff the author has repeatedly emphasized, and was explicitly told it was flawed reasoning? Yea, i saw that post.
So the author "has repeatedly emphasized" something in two small panels with no background, but hasn't in other two times that actually got way more impressive displays in panel-size, story flow and art details?
Yeah, let's ignore all the visual elements because they are inconvenient and pick the small panels instead.
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So the author "has repeatedly emphasized" something in two small panels with no background, but hasn't in other two times that actually got way more impressive displays in panel-size, story flow and art details?
Yeah, let's ignore all the visual elements because they are inconvenient and pick the small panels instead.
If you're serious, the text and dialogue will always trump panel size.
The two statements aren't at odds with each other if you're following the flow of the story. Besides that, one you can take at face value while the other takes interpreting the meaning of the panel size and dialogue your way to land to your conclusion.
It's not even about picking small panels lol. Nobody is really reading this manga with the guideline that smaller panels are less important than bigger panels.
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@Zik:
If you're serious, the text and dialogue will always trump panel size.
The two statements aren't at odds with each other if you're following the flow of the story. Besides that, one you can take at face value while the other takes interpreting the meaning of the panel size and dialogue your way to land to your conclusion.
It's not even about picking small panels lol. Nobody is really reading this manga with the guideline that smaller panels are less important than bigger panels.
So, today we learned that visuals have no weight when measuring importance in a visual media like manga.
It's okay to counter-argument my point. There's plenty of arguments that can be made like "Oda is for now putting less emphasis on this because he plans to expand on it in the future", or "well, those panels have greater visual weight because they are showcasing action moments, and that's what Oda is really emphasizing, not Yamato's words".
But denying that importance is conveyed throught visuals is just plain wrong.
And, come on, be honest, if this happened instead, no one would be discussing if Yamato was going to join or not:
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ngl I'm not even convinced you know what you're talking about at this point anymore.
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ngl I'm not even convinced you know what you're talking about at this point anymore.
As always, I present an argument, which you are free to agree or not.
But, instead of a counter-argument, or just polite disagreement, I get replied with some obfuscated bashing.
Which makes it clear who's clueless here.
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That makes no sense at all.
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So, today we learned that visuals have no weight when measuring importance in a visual media like manga.
If that's what you've learned today I can see why you're so wrong about this.
Nobody is dismissing visuals. Comics/manga is a visual medium.
You're trying to make this about visuals but your argument is about panel size having more importance than other panel sizes lol.
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That panel reminds me that the tips of Yamato's hair is just like Kaido. I feel like I barely see it anymore.
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Giving panel size any weight.
It's weird that people even question that.
Everyone drools over double-page spreads. And then there's those tiny panels that are mostly connective tissue between more important ones. Are you seriously saying they have the same narrative weight? Are you seriously questioning that a visual media doesn't use visuals in storytelling?
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It's weird that people even question that.
Everyone drools over double-page spreads. And then there's those tiny panels that are mostly connective tissue between more important ones. Are you seriously saying they have the same narrative weight? Are you seriously questioning that a visual media doesn't use visuals in storytelling?
You seem to seriously not understand what's being said.
I really wouldn't be ridiculous enough to rely on the size of a panel determining its importance. I wouldn't start putting double page spreads over one page panels or any other combination.
Its silly.
Nobody is talking about a visual medium using visuals in storytelling. The topic just gets dumber if you're seriously asking that question. You're talking about one panel size having more importance than the other solely based on size.
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@Zik:
Definitely.
I really wouldn't be ridiculous enough to rely on the size of a panel determining its importance. I wouldn't start 0utting double page spreads over one page panels or any other combination.
Its silly.
Silly is to deny a basic principle in storytelling.
It's one thing to question my interpretation of what Oda is really highlighting in those panels. It's another to try to make like a fundamental rule of narrative doesn't exist.
ANd it's not just panel size, as you people are trying to reduce the argument too. It's the entire composition of the frame and what's in it.
This:
Is not the same as this:
And both pale in comparison to this:
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It's weird that people even question that.
Everyone drools over double-page spreads. And then there's those tiny panels that are mostly connective tissue between more important ones. Are you seriously saying they have the same narrative weight? Are you seriously questioning that a visual media doesn't use visuals in storytelling?
I'm saying an artist as Oda would obviously draw things that would look great in bigger panels rather than in small panels. I'm saying the size isn't an indicator for the importance of anything.
I'm not questioning the visuals… they underline the story... but they don't give specific speech bubbles more weight... if you get a big panel... it's about the fucking panel... it highlights the shown whatever, in this case Yamato...As you already said, everyone drools over double-page spreads... it's about the pictures not the text...
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Silly is to deny a basic principle in storytelling.
That's not whats being done though.
If anything you pretending like panel size has a ranking system by importance is a basic principle in storytelling is beyond silly. Its ridiculous.
No matter how much you try to make this about storytelling and visuals in a visual medium I'm going to keep sticking to the actual topic and the point you're trying to pretend is a fact.
Nowhere is it said about the visual medium of comics or manga that if a panel is bigger than another panel it is more important to the narrative of the story.
That's just a flat out lie you're trying to pass off as a fact.
That you think that is just your interpretation about the visual medium that is manga/comics.
Double spreads mean a lot but they do not hold more narrative importance to the story being told than a panel smaller than it. Same goes for the rest of the panel sizes.
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I'm saying an artist as Oda would obviously draw things that would look great in bigger panels rather than in small panels. I'm saying the size isn't an indicator for the importance of anything.
I'm not questioning the visuals… they underline the story... but they don't give specific speech bubbles more weight... if you get a big panel... it's about the fucking panel... it highlights the shown whatever, in this case Yamato...Every panel has an importance in the story, but some panels are more important to convey meaning and emotional weight than others.
Some panels are just connective tissue. Others are meant to enhance a particular moment. And there are panels that cap all that build-up with powerful visuals. Like in the example above, why did I keep some panels together with Yamato's declaration? Because those small panels are exist to enhance that single moment, while in the other pages the panels stand almost alone as there's a break in pace just before those moments.Or are you saying that Cricket seeing the gigantic shadow of Luffy in the horizon has the same importance as the smaller ones showing the faces of the characters involved have the same importance?
As you already said, everyone drools over double-page spreads… it's about the pictures not the text...
Wrong, they work hand-in-hand, side by side. You don't usually put very important points in unimportant panels. Usually, big conclusions and revelations go with more meaningful panels to hammer the point harder into the reader's head.
THis is true for all forms of visual media. In movies, the music is also used to enhance visuals and dialogue. We are talking about a mute media here, but the principle is the same.
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Yamato constantly states he wants to leave
Let's see what squares and lines have to say about that!
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Yamato constantly states he wants to leave
Let's see what squares and lines have to say about that!
Screw that, lets scour the miniscule panels for META clues yet again! To hell with actual story beats and plot point!
Altho I kinda agree about "guardian Yamato" thing :ninja:
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Yamato constantly states he wants to leave
Let's see what squares and lines have to say about that!
Yep, didn't know the size of panels trumps over the words and feelings of what's being expressed.
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Like I said I think there's more substantial discussion to be had concerning how obvious it is by how crew dynamic has evolved in this arc alone. Zoro has Kings Haki, Sanji is finally being put on the same level as Zoro as a threat if not in strength. Franky is finally being shown to be the heavy hitter he was promised to be when he first joined and when he adapted Vegapunk's tech. Chopper is becoming a man, and strong veterans like Jinbe being around only hasten that development i think because Chopper is so impressionable, Ussop's growth is nice and steady and I still think he has more to contribute, Brook was already shining since Whole Cake and seems to be skating through this ordeal casually.
I've already covered Nami and Robin, but I think we should all acknowledge that the pronounced atmosphere that's being created around the crew's strength and resilience is to make way for strong characters like Jinbe and Yamato joining the fold. I honestly believe this is what Oda meant about the Next crewmates joining concurrently and why the toast was postponed. They'll be welcoming Yamato as well as either another Combatant or Pirate Apprentice , if Zoro doesn't leave Wano proclaiming his Vice Captain or First Mate role.
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I honestly believe this is what Oda meant about the Next crewmates joining concurrently and why the toast was postponed.
What's this about? Or in reference to? I think I may have missed it as far as next crew mate news outside of the story.
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I still think none of these characters are interesting enough to be the final member, after Chopper, Franky, Brook and Jinbei I was expecting something truly crazy for a final member
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@Zik:
What's this about? Or in reference to? I think I may have missed it as far as next crew mate news outside of the story.
I couldn't provide you with a source , I just remember it was before or around the time of Dressrosa, so naturally when the Grand Fleet thing happened, we all assumed it was that naturally and it could still be, but now that we might have Jinbe and Yamato joining under the same toast or banquet, this all makes more sense.
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Wow, we're really going with panel size now?
Not narrative weight or dialogue or number of panels or potential ship position or powers or design or color or covers but… panel size?
That's pretty much the worst and most desperate argument I've ever seen.
And this is the NAKAMA thread. That's an incredibly low bar.
Going by that metric Blackbeard is joining the crew.
biggest single panel, word balloon, and DON in the entire series.
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I couldn't provide you with a source , I just remember it was before or around the time of Dressrosa, so naturally when the Grand Fleet thing happened, we all assumed it was that naturally and it could still be, but now that we might have Jinbe and Yamato joining under the same toast or banquet, this all makes more sense.
"I think I can keep drawing in next decade and we will get new nakama successively." China Times (2014)
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If only AGOG was here to discuss Perona's panels.
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I still think none of these characters are interesting enough to be the final member, after Chopper, Franky, Brook and Jinbei I was expecting something truly crazy for a final member
I'd argue if she joins , Yamato would have one of the most unique introductions amongst the crew. They essentially got the Quasimodo treatment or perhaps the even better comparison would be Sloth Fratelli, who was the monstrous son of a Family of criminals who was teased lurking from the shadow of his family until his full reveal to the character of Chunk whom he befriends, rebels against his family for and becomes a member of the Goonies.
Sloth is also the most child like despite being the physical strongest and has a great admiration for the character of Superman, to the point of emulating him during key moments of the film. Even wearing Superman's iconic S on his blue shirt. Spoiler he goes home with Chunk and the gang at the end of the film.
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"I think I can keep drawing in next decade and we will get new nakama successively." China Times (2014)
Okay, good.
Don't know how ppl confused that with the grand fleet.
That sounds like a pretty clear the new nakamas are joining back to back.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
If only AGOG was here to discuss Perona's panels.
I look back on the Perona era fondly now. Just before the Jimbe arguments we had Perona lasting all the way until after the time skip.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I still think none of these characters are interesting enough to be the final member, after Chopper, Franky, Brook and Jinbei I was expecting something truly crazy for a final member
Eh, I still think Oda dropped the ball with Jimbe.
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Still woulda been better from all standpoints if Jinbe had joined as a couch homie.
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@Zik:
Okay, good.
Don't know how ppl confused that with the grand fleet.
We don't know if the word "nakama" was actually used.
Jinbro wasn't new either.
And its been like 8 years, Oda is bad at calculating his own series length, there's no way he could possibly be talking of a 2022 event, like 8 years ago, and he's never ever mentioned anything about it in all this time, heck he's probably forgotten of that interview already, we keep it alive and fresh because we keep discussing it so much.
Its actually very rare that Oda would ever mention future additions to the crew, how many and where could we expect them to show up. As a matter of a fact, beides that whole mess of a confusion ya'll made out of that interview, we don't have any examples of Oda openly speaking of future crewmates.
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@Zik:
Okay, good.
Don't know how ppl confused that with the grand fleet.
That sounds like a pretty clear the new nakamas are joining back to back.
That's because that's a bad translation warped to use for nakama arguments. The fact that its left as raw "nakama" should be proof of that, given that it was an interview in China Times. That word isn't going to stay intact going from Japanese to Chinese to English without someone wishing it to be so.
It was much closer to "the next allies will show up successively." I don't remember the exact phrasing, (If anything can be "exact" after filtering through three languages) but it definitely didn't say "nakama". Once the GF showed up it fit the context perfectly and everyone agreed on that. If it had specifically used Nakama no one would have accepted that as the answer… and this is the first time in almost 8 years I'm seeing THAT version of the quote.
Also on that note... Oda said it EIGHT YEARS ago, and given that the Grand Fleet was not long after, it made perfect sense. Oda's bad about guessing his timeline but he's not THAT bad. He wouldn't throw out a tease like that, that far back.
Similarly, "A former boss will join" was pretty obviously talking about the Impel Down crew once that happened.
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Wow, we're really going with panel size now?
Not narrative weight or dialogue or number of panels or potential ship position or powers or design or color or covers but… panel size?
That's pretty much the worst and most desperate argument I've ever seen.
And this is the NAKAMA thread. That's an incredibly low bar.
Going by that metric Blackbeard is joining the crew.
[qimg]https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.955578343.3911/pp,840x830-pad,1000x1000,f8f8f8.jpg[/qimg]
biggest single panel, word balloon, and DON in the entire series.
I believe Deicide's point was that important scenes do tend to get more panel real estate. That BB panel works the same way Deicide was trying to illustrate: the character saying something very meaningful and illuminating about the character's motivation. I personally wouldn't say that big panels are always super important or small ones aren't, that the former always trumps the latter, or that Yamato's comments about sailing with Luffy are objectively less impactful than anything else. But there is something to be said about how the author chooses to highlight the importance of ideas through size, placement, parallels to prior chapters and all that.
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Sure, up to a point. And when it's the big "A man's dream never dies!" "This is MY Era now!" "I'm Here to End This War!" splashes that take up basically an entire page, or a full spread in BB's case, with a giant DON behind them, or when the climax to a fight gets a full page spread for its knockout blow.. those are important key drama notes.
But what's being argued here is "this normal sized panel in the middle of a page is more important than this other normal sized panel in the middle of the page because it's a quarter of an inch bigger." It's not the same thing, and it also has to do extreme cherry picking and ignore other things. Or that sometimes dialogue goes over multiple panels. That an entire scene is worth more than just one panel.
Like this panel was most of a page but it's not being used in these completely arbitrary, cherry picked, comparisons at all.
But as cool and noteworthy as that one panel is? It was part of a 10 page flashback! That part of took place in chapter 1000. There's more than JUST panel size to account for.
Panel size can be a punctuation mark, yes, but its not the whole sentence or paragraph.
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We learned a lot that one time we discussed Wanda's placement in the SH's spread with Jinbro's comeback.
Pages get cropped during edition, like all the time. If Oda's panel sizes constantly get messed up by editors, that's more of a reason to not go that way.
Also, stuff to keep in mind;
•Yamato has stated nothing that contradicts his desire to set sail.
•Yamato is Oden, fathers DO die for their sons.(Especially when there's immediate danger around)
•Yamato has shown no interest to stay in what's been his prision for the last 20 years. -
Yamato had that really cool panel in 1,016 too. Even after spending time with Momo.
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I believe Deicide's point was that important scenes do tend to get more panel real estate.
That's it. I'm not sure if people are purposely twisting my words, it was never about just panel size, but the words get twisted by one reader, then other readers use that reader's twisted arguments as my arguments and everyone runs with that.
I also never placed any correlation between "panel size" and "nakama", only that panels that are bigger and more detailed are used to convey more impactful meanings.
Like, if the panorama of a location is shown in a small horizontal panel that occupies 1/3 of a page, then the location will usually be less important than one that receives a huge two-page spread full of details. Both panels serve the same purpose superficially (show a location), but one gets more details, more attention, and usually more interesting words describing it.
That BB panel works the same way Deicide was trying to illustrate: the character saying something very meaningful and illuminating about the character's motivation. I personally wouldn't say that big panels are always super important or small ones aren't, that the former always trumps the latter, or that Yamato's comments about sailing with Luffy are objectively less impactful than anything else. But there is something to be said about how the author chooses to highlight the importance of ideas through size, placement, parallels to prior chapters and all that.
I have no idea how people can even equate: "Oh, this character got a big panel, so he will be nakama". That was as far from my point it could be, and yet was written accusing me to do it. I'm not sure if people are here for honest discussion or just to build up strawmen of other arguments so they can easily beat them.
I mean, they said I was hiding a picture from my analysis, except that I did use that pic earlier.
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That's it. I'm not sure if people are purposely twisting my words, it was never about just panel size, but the words get twisted by one reader, then other readers use that reader's twisted arguments as my arguments and everyone runs with that.
I also never placed any correlation between "panel size" and "nakama", only that panels that are bigger and more detailed are used to convey more impactful meanings.
Like, if the panorama of a location is shown in a small horizontal panel that occupies 1/3 of a page, then the location will usually be less important than one that receives a huge two-page spread full of details. Both panels serve the same purpose superficially (show a location), but one gets more details, more attention, and usually more interesting words describing it.
Are you….implying that i twisted your words when you literally just confirmed your big/small panel argument?
But i'll just break it down into detail one more time. Story emphasis/character focus/lots of details being pinned down are much more important than whatever panel size or details (which i'm not even sure what this means), because the former conveys much clearer intent to your average reader. Sure, you can point to big events having big panels (e.g. Blackbeard's declaration, luffy's words to rayleigh), but this is supposed to support the weight of these events and not the other way around.
I don't need a big panel to let me know how dangerous Blackbeard is when the story has dedicated a great deal of time showing what he has done.
I don't need big panels to know that luffy's words are significant because we know he's the protagonist of the story and this is his time to shine.I have no idea how people can even equate: "Oh, this character got a big panel, so he will be nakama". That was as far from my point it could be, and yet was written accusing me to do it. I'm not sure if people are here for honest discussion or just to build up strawmen of other arguments so they can easily beat them.
I mean, they said I was hiding a picture from my analysis, except that I did use that pic earlier.
People here didn't use big panels to push for characters, you were the one using the size of panels/attention(?) to argue for a certain narrative. What are you talking about here?
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I have no idea how people can even equate: "Oh, this character got a big panel, so he will be nakama". That was as far from my point it could be, and yet was written accusing me to do it. I'm not sure if people are here for honest discussion or just to build up strawmen of other arguments so they can easily beat them.
Excuse me, if I'm not mistaken your claim was, that Yamato won't join because the panels in which she said she'd protect Momo, and die for Momo were bigger than those in which she said she will leave and join Luffy…
You even undermined the fact that she said multiple times that she'll leave Wano and join Luffy, because the panels in which she said it were small...
Isn't that right? Or did I read it wrong?So basically your argument was: bigger panels = more important
And that is just plain wrong... -
Excuse me, if I'm not mistaken your claim was, that Yamato won't join because the panels in which she said she'd protect Momo, and die for Momo were bigger than those in which she said she will leave and join Luffy…
You even undermined the fact that she said multiple times that she'll leave Wano and join Luffy, because the panels in which she said it were small...
Isn't that right? Or did I read it wrong?So basically your argument was: bigger panels = more important
And that is just plain wrong...Actual argument:
I don’t agree with the “Yamato will stay in Wano” idea. His desire to sail away and have adventures is the truest part of his character. Just look at how much emphasis was put in his declaration to Ace: wide shot, memorable moment, cool pose, big lettering, major panel…
I feel that desire is immutable.
The part I think people misinterpret is the need for Yamato to be in Luffy’s crew. That declaration of leaving happens even before Yamato learns of Luffy’s existence. And both times Yamato declares desire to leave with Luffy, the panels are way more timid, without the same visual elements of the previously highlighted moment.To me, at this moment, Yamato believes the only way he can achieve his dream is by joining Luffy. However, Yamato’s character arc will lead him to find out that he truly wants to make his own destiny rather than be a follower of someone else’s. When he finally leaves Wano, it’s him, not Luffy who will set the destination.
So, going back to this post, now that I'm home and can provide images.
Here's the panels (within their respective pages) where Yamato declares he wants to go with Luffy:
! [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/cqmQ0QZ.png[/qimg]
[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/jMJ1u0T.png[/qimg]Notice how bland they are. Without the words, they don't feel special at all. Blank backgrounds, close ups of Yamato's face with a bland expression, less than one fourth of their pages.
But here's the moment Yamato declares his dream. This is where we can find the immutable feature of Yamato's character, his true drive, the thing that will fulfill his character arc.
Now, that's an impactful panel (by comparison with the former ones, at least).
Half of a page. The destroyed dragon background symbolizing his father's opression. Full body shot. You can tell even without the words that whatever it's being said is important.
And what's being said?
"I want to leave too! I want to leave to the sea and go on adventures! I want to live as free as Oden did!"
That dream is undeniable and won't change. I'm sure Yamato will not stay in Wano.
Now, leaving as part of Luffy's crew? That's the part that totally optional there.
And the author is sending a message of what to expect by checking which panels show Yamato's character louder and clearer.
Continuing the visual emphasis analysis.
Before, I compared specific moments: Yamato declaring he wants to have adventures and be as free as Oden, with Yamato declaring his intention to go with Luffy. We saw how small and visually uninteresting the later ones were.
Now, I tried something different, I decided to seek Yamato's most visual striking moments and see what he's declaring in those. Here's the result:
! [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/i6Q7tLw.png[/qimg]
! "My other name is Yamato, and I would die for you! (Momonosuke)"! [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/vpc7hVZ.png[/qimg]
! "If I don't fight for this country, I can't call myself Kozuki Oden!"Now, wow, what a difference those do!
Both are multi-panel whole-page chapter-ending moments.
Both can be said to be Yamato's defining moments.
Both show Yamato big and glorious, one of them revealing his true power.
And both are about protecting Wano and Momonosuke.Take from that what you will…
What's funny is that you were one of the first to reply back then, again reducing the whole argument into "look at those panels, they're big…"
After all is said and done, Wano will be free, Momo will be safe and Yamato will be gone…
Those panels show her resolution for the time being, after all that is done there is nothing holding her there...Name one reason why she should stay in Wano after Wano is freed and Momo saved?
Why would she forsake her wish to leave? Why shouldn't Luffy take her with him after he saw what she did for him and his friends...ONE reason, something plausible and not like "look at those panels, they're big..."
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What's funny is that you were one of the first to reply back then, again reducing the whole argument into "look at those panels, they're big…"
Yeah, and look what I replied to…
I've never read the two first posts before. In those two, your argument was valid and good, and I even agree with most parts.Then you said:
Now, I tried something different, I decided to seek Yamato's most visual striking moments and see what he's declaring in those. Here's the result:
So your third post has nothing to do with the two previous ones…
You made the third post, completely driving your prior posts into the ground and coming to the weirdest conclusion...
"And both are about protecting Wano and Momonosuke.
Take from that what you will…"
That's what I'm discussing with you, nothing else…
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Yeah, and look what I replied to…
I've never read the two first posts before. In those two, your argument was valid and good, and I even agree with most parts.Then you said:
So your third post has nothing to do with the two previous ones...
You made the third post, completely driving your prior posts into the ground and coming to the weirdest conclusion...
That's what I'm discussing with you, nothing else...
It's absolutely normal to expand a theory as new info is found. I pinpointed some panels and drew a conclusion from them. Then I found more panels that I had overlooked and that initial conclusion became less certain. And all that was before Yamato's DF being revealed as "Wano's guardian spirit".
I've not even changed the prediction in my signature, because I'm still waiting more interesting panels to pile up.
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It's absolutely normal to expand a theory as new info is found. I pinpointed some panels and drew a conclusion from them.
And that's totally fine, but don't put your first two posts in the same discussion, since they contradict each other…
Your latest conclusion makes no sense in my opinion, that's why we're arguing...Then I found more panels that I had overlooked and that initial conclusion became less certain. And all that was before Yamato's DF being revealed as "Wano's guardian spirit".
Doesn't change much, in my opinion, because Hyogoro called Luffy also a "Guardian deity".
All this implicates is that Luffy and Yamato are going to be the main figures in the liberation of Wano. -
Sorry Deicide, I am just unconvinced of your argument, I tried to see the merits of it, but I just can't.
Ultimately panels and dialogue are parts of the script that Oda came up with, and one cannot ignore the momentum of the story and the script just because the panel sizes say so.
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I have no idea how people can even equate: "Oh, this character got a big panel, so he will be nakama".
No one said that.
Except for this guy.
Now, I tried something different, I decided to seek Yamato's most visual striking moments and see what he's declaring in those. Here's the result:
Now, wow, what a difference those do!
Both are multi-panel whole-page chapter-ending moments.
Both can be said to be Yamato's defining moments.
Both show Yamato big and glorious, one of them revealing his true power.
And both are about protecting Wano and Momonosuke.Like, if the panorama of a location is shown in a small horizontal panel that occupies 1/3 of a page, then the location will usually be less important than one that receives a huge two-page spread full of details.
That was as far from my point it could be, and yet was written accusing me to do it.
You are literally saying it doesn't matter what the dialogue says in any panel if there is a bigger panel somewhere else. Even if that bigger panel… is saying the same thing?
But your photoshopped examples removed the dialogue to try and make a point.
I'm not sure if people are here for honest discussion or just to build up strawmen of other arguments so they can easily beat them.
Have you considered that… you're the one constructing a strawman argument? Grasping at the tiniest of straws to make a case while ignoring everything else?
And that if a dozen people disagree with you or don't understand what you're saying... that it might be on you?
Making photoshop mockups doesn't make your point any better, no more than that silly Carrot collage did for other posters.
This is 100% the truth, I didn't even SEE your original post. And I, completely independently, pulled out that Yamato declaration in front of the statue. (it was one of the first things to pop up on a google search.) I was pulling that as evidence FOR. It never occurred to me that someone would make that declaration to be AGAINST, because that is the weirdest interpretation I've heard. It never in a million years would have occured to me that someone was using that as an argument against Yamato going out to sea. I didn't pull it up to be contrarian... I pulled it up because your example is so insane I naturally assumed you didn't include that image, how could you have if you were making a discussion about "small panels"
"This scene of Yamato declaring he wants to leave and go out to sea in big bold letters... that's clearly evidence he's staying to protect Momo." What?
And then someone above quoted your original post and I saw it now and just... that's completely out there.
Oh, but you had to delete the dialogue in your examples to make that case. Almost as if, having the actual words in the example wrecks the bizarre argument completely?
You are literally erasing things and presenting doctored evidence while removing all context, (both dialogue and surrounding panels) in order to ignore them to make your case. Don't you think THAT is a bit strawmannish?
Like just maybe, if its a small but clear closeup of the character, and the entire emphasis is on the words... then the words might be important?
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Hey, I made that silly collage, and I still stand by it. In fact, I might just make an update sometime before Carrot makes her move.