Then yeah, Cap killing people just in WW2 alone and them being Nazis and even worse Nazis is fine.
DC Movies Thread - Shazam saves the day
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Didn’t he kick some guys off a helicarrier
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Zod was a superman level thread that you could not afford to keep around, just like doomsday, and the guys with wonder woman were blowing up some people, when are you allowed to step over the line? Batman killin in BvsS could have been avoided, I guess.
There is also that room when superman was trialed, he should have saved them, felt forced that he could not do anything. -
…..
Before I start, Let me just say that thank you for actually elaborating on your points. I don't think it was that hard to express your point without the garbage joke that is, from my experience, always used as a strawman to avoid any real discussion.
I'm sorry if I came across as being too blunt about it. I see that type of joke everywhere so it's hard not for me to dismiss it as someone using it as means to escape expressing something about the topic at hand.
look at Transformers, it makes tons of money with each new entry in franchise, but it's a burning garbage dump of a series, that lacks anything good about it
Sure.
But then, how are Marvel movies different? Sure, you can say that people enjoy Marvel stuff more but I don't really see any real difference between them. They are the same factory-made movies trying to appeal to as many people as they can. You can say that Marvel movie succeeds more, sure but they aren't objectively different in terms of why they were made or who they were made for.
Marvel movies aren't indie movies or passion projects. These movies are heavily controlled, feel the same, have the same type of humor despite having characters that should be different on paper but in reality come across as the same generic wisecracking archetypes, etc…..
The only difference between Transformers and Marvel movies is the fact that one is supposed to be SEEN as garbage WHILE OTHER is supposed to be seen as these well-made movies.
I'd argue to tell weather something is truly good or not, is not judged solely by success but how well it's reviewed,
But then even the critics themselves cannot really be trusted in this time and age since for critics anything that is basically pushing modern political ideologies is seen as "good".
Captain Marvel fucking sucked as a movie and had a terrible main protagonist and yet it got good reviews.
Ghost Busters 2016 fucked sucked and yet it got good reviews.
What about those movies?
But if you enjoy some super hero action, funny lines and often feel good stories to watch for an hour or two, then yeah I think there pretty fun to watch and I'm not gonna apologize for that
but don’t act like we’re brain dead cattle who are being spoon feed crap movies and are to dumb to understand why there bad
Which is fine if its one or two movies but the entire Marvel catalogue is basically like that.
I loved the first hour of Endgame simply because it wasn't the same generic Marvel shit. It showed actual consequence and somber tone that Marvel isn't ever used to show in their movies. But just like everything with Marvel, Endgame ended up undoing any type of consequence and only killed some characters.
What the fuck is even the point of having so many characters when all of them feel the same? Never mind their personalities, Marvel never seems to go anywhere really interesting or doing anything interesting beyond the clichés.
If your thing is "just don't think and consume" then ok but that basically tries to handwaves the problem. Which is why Superhero genre fatigue is a thing. Not everyone is so willing to eat the same shit they have seen thousand of times in order to "feel good".
It's strange that someone who is basically saying that Marvel movies are your brain-dead feel-good movies but then is also claiming that they aren't brain-dead for wanting to watch the same crap. I mean if I wanted to re-watch something, I would pull that particular thing out rather than watching something new and giving it credit for being exactly like the previous thing.
Marvel movies aren't created to be stand-alone blockbusters. They are created to be advertisements for the next advertisements while featuring their cliched character-tropes and approach. Which is the only reason why I even watched Endgame and be done with MCU.
Daredevil season 3 is the peak of MCU as far as I'm concerned. And nothing the movies have done or will do, will even reach that level of awesomeness. Show runners had an actual story to tell and they told it and elevated the shit outta the source material.
Again you not liking something doesn’t make it a bad movie,
And the opposite of that is also true lol.
Somehow that seems to escape people who make this sort of point.
s not judged solely by success but how well it's reviewed,
Just to elaborate on this point; Blade Runner, Fight Club and 2001 A Space Odyssey weren't well-received when they came out. But their reception now is a bit different to say the least lol.
And that's the point though. Marvel movies will never under go that level of discourse or be appreciated for their own merits. Because…..they don't really have any. Since whether talking about cinematography, direction, special effects, etc.... Marvel movies are subpar. They work NOW. They work EXACTLY because of the current market. No one is really going to look back and talk about Marvel
They are like Avatar. Once the highest grossing movie soon became forgettable couple of months after the release. The only reason why Marvel doesn't go through the same is because they got movies upon movies coming out and are staying the market.
there’s no need to insult there tastes and act like your opinion is infinitely superior simply cause you disagree,
And yet that was never actually said.
Marvel movies being a very commercially driven and factory-made stuff in order to rinse-repeat the formula isn't an opinion.
You are allowed to love it or like it but trying to claim they aren't factory-made is downright false.
Sounds like you just have a hard time being seen as liking something that is very obviously driven by Corporations and nothing more.
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Also kinda curious as someone who does not pay much attention to Western (American) crap nowadays; aren't most Western movies/tv-shows rehash/remakes of old stuff or filled with fluff feel-good things? What Western stuff even has substance or creative vision nowadays?
How does Marvel compare to the rest of the industry? Just curious.
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I guess we just don’t expect that behavior from the big guy
It depends on the character.
Wonder Woman can and does kill, its fine. It's also why she has a shitty rogues gallery that consists of… Cheetah. And Giganta I guess.
Batman's moral code is that if he kills someone, he creates another murder and then he might repeat it if it becomes too easy. He avoids it because he'd hate himself otherwise. Yeah make arguments about all the lives Joker takes that are Batman's fault but... the system is in place and fails, not Bats. His origin keeps him from letting himself cross that line.
But Superman is supposed to find the better way. He's too powerful not to. He saves everyone he can. Even the villains. Guy can move planets and fly the sun and back in seconds and is invincible gets to find other solutions.
Unless the writers are hacks that think him murdering is cool and expectation shattering.
The post Crisis comics had Superman murder ONCE. And it happened to be the other Kryptonians. And the writers regetted it for YEARS afterwards and constantly had Superman be remorseful about it. (Including a LONG stint in self imposed exile) I don't know what he's like or done since New 52 but for a 30 year period he had exactly one set of deaths on his hands and everyone agreed that was a mistake.
Heroes do what they can to protect civilians. If baddies get hurt in the middle of action as self defense, well...
But there's a difference between Batman knocking a guy down and hurting him while disarming him... and Batman driving through the streets with a machine gun on his car mowing guys down.
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For me its also superman see the best in people and want to give them the chance to become better. Which murdering the bad guys doesnt help do.
I would also argue that wonder man kill when the situation warrants it like a world war or when superman is under mind control from a madman that says killing him is the only way while strapped in the lasso not for funsies like killing a regular thug she can easily deal with. But then its getting nitpicky.
Heroes murder in the snyderverse. I have made peace with that. I say he doesnt get superman because his superman seems to take saving people as responsability that burdens and sort of makes him miserable rather then a calling that gives him joy when he helped someone. Most of the rest is fine, Batman is broody, Not-Wally is comedic, Wonder woman is a cool warrior that also like to help people. Which actually Synder should just strive to make his superman closer to wonder woman personality (minus the enjoying fighting part).
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I don't know how "legit" this is but Snyder's vision for Superman has been more about seeing Superman make mistakes and have his "allegiance" switch back and forth before he becomes the Superman that we know off.
Which is something I totally fucking love.
I know that Superman's backstory is cliched and all but I always LOVED the idea of exploring the early days of Clark/Superman before he come to grasp his own value and what he stands for.
Snyder is one interesting director, the more I read up on him and see videos about him from a different angle. Seems like a super cool dude to hang out with and chat as he is the only Hollywood director I have seen that actually goes outta his ways and interacts with his fans/audience whenever he can. His actions after what happen to his family definitely made me interested and now he is just sounding more and more like an misunderstood dude. Definitely not how media makes him out to be.
Interesting but controversial video about Snyder.
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I've seen the Wonder Woman murder bit mentioned elsewhere; Is it true that the excessive kill is followed by a small girl saying "I wanna be like you when I grow up!!"?
I mean have heroes kill if you must and own the grit of it, but that sort of framing sounds like borderline self parody
As for Superman, I always thought the bigger problem with Man of Steel is that it doesn't establish Supes' ethos in-story, which makes the Murder Moment jarring as it relies entirely on the meta-layer of audience preconceptions? (Pre-emptively: no, I don't really care that Superman is an old character that many people know, a character should make sense within his own story, especially if said story is supposedly a reboot origin character study. Otherwise its no different from the nonsense "Khan!" reveal from Nu-trek)
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@Daz:
I've seen the Wonder Woman murder bit mentioned elsewhere; Is it true that the excessive kill is followed by a small girl saying "I wanna be like you when I grow up!!"?
Well technically wonder woman had just saved them from bank highjackers that wanted to blow them up. And its a nice scene about a young girl being inspired by wonder woman with her giving an appropriate response and a smile unlike constantly moping or brooding superman.
With Snyder heroes killing is like heroes punching people. Its something you shouldnt overthink and consider part of the background. And after that scene I think they only fight hideous monsters that seems to lack self awareness (+stepenwolf).
! As for Superman, I always thought the bigger problem with Man of Steel is that it doesn't establish Supes' ethos in-story, which makes the Murder Moment jarring as it relies entirely on the meta-layer of audience preconceptions? (Pre-emptively: no, I don't really care that Superman is an old character that many people know, a character should make sense within his own story, especially if said story is supposedly a reboot origin character study. Otherwise its no different from the nonsense "Khan!" reveal from Nu-trek)
If you talking about the general interpratation that this action teach him to never kill again. You're right its not in the movie.He doesnt has moment where he declare he will never kill.
! But in the context of the movie it can easily be read as a growing up moment. he as trouble killing (like most people do) but is willing to go that extra step if people are on the line. Proving nothing is more important to him then protecting people and becoming a true superhero in that moment.
! A person struggling with having to do a personal sacrifice in order to protect people is pretty common in action movies with nice guys. So the movie does work as showing how Clark went from struggling enough with heroism to not save his dad to valuing it so much he would kill for it. -
Let's be frank. The majority of people were not watching BvS thinking "oh no, this goes against the character". They don't know his character really. It's just us few who moan. In Man of Steel they might've been thinking "Hey, Supes, maybe don't level half of Smallville fighting these guys", but not necessarily, "Oh no, he snapped the neck of an enemy who will not yield, he can't do that!"
@Johnny:
Did Cap kill anyone in Winter Soldier or Civil War?
Definitely. But in typical movie fashion, it's implied. Especially that guy he hit so hard the guy hit his back against the side of the ship (likely fractured/broken) and then fell into the ocean. Think he also threw his shield at a guy's face.
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Proving nothing is more important to him then protecting people and becoming a true superhero in that moment.
That's the moment he STOPPED being a super hero though. He just became a murderer who couldn't find a better way.
Go on all you want about "but it was an impossible situation where he had no choice!"
BULL. Writers put him there, writers decided him ending the threat by snapping his neck was the best way to do it.
Just introduce kyrptonite early in the film and you have your out when you get to the point you need it. Or the phantom zone. Or have Superman's desire to be a HERO impress Zod and have him leave without doing any more damage, but maybe he'll return someday. Have Zod be inspired and sacrifice himself while doing a save of civilians he didn't care about earlier. Or make a point that because Zod had less time under a yellow sun he was just overall weaker and ran out of juice after a few hours while Clark had a supply to go for weeks.
There were infinite ways to end that film without making Superman a murderer.
The writers just had to want it.
So the movie does work as showing how Clark went from struggling enough with heroism to not save his dad to valuing it so much he would kill for it.
Also complete failure on the writers.
They had to make Pa Kent into a complete monster to make that work.
Kind farmboy raised by loving parents grows up wanting to help people. Clark is Clark, Superman is the disguise. He shouldn't NEED a lesson. There shouldn't BE any quandry of "maybe you should have let that bus full of children drown." "Maybe you should let your father be killed by a tornado."
That is all completely stupid nonsense the writers put in to pretend to be deep but that did nothing but make the characters assholes.
You want to show that Clark can have losses? That he can't do everything?
Well what if instead… he kind old father... has a heart attack and just dies of natural causes? Clark learns that even with all his powers, there are things he can't stop, things he can't fix. That all lives are precious.
Oh wait, that's how they handled it in 1977 and got it right the FIRST time.
I'm not saying the 77 movie is perfect, far from it, and it especially suffers from pre-crisis crazy scheme Luthor, but it got everything about the character and his responsibilities right. World has moved forward in the 44 years since so its dated and a bit cheesy... but that character is still timeless and basically the same film would be fine today with just mild updates. Man that sends checks to his mother, saves cats from trees, doesn't swear or lie. You can't just repeat it note for note, Returns failed horribly at being too loyal to it, but the groundwork on how to do all these superhero films and treat them with respect and get teh characters right was done proper the first time around.
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Been waiting on this casting. Pierce Brosnan playing Fate confirmed for the Black Adam film
S](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/black-adam-pierce-brosnan-to-play-dc-hero-dr-fate-opposite-dwayne-johnson-exclusive)o the JSA for this film is complete
- Noah Centineo as Atom Smasher
- Aldis Hodge as Hawkman
- Quintessa Swindell as Cyclone
- Pierce as Fate
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Batman's moral code is that if he kills someone, he creates another murder and then he might repeat it if it becomes too easy. He avoids it because he'd hate himself otherwise. Yeah make arguments about all the lives Joker takes that are Batman's fault but… the system is in place and fails, not Bats. His origin keeps him from letting himself cross that line.
I thought it kept him from using guns…....until Final Crisis.
For me its also superman see the best in people and want to give them the chance to become better. Which murdering the bad guys doesnt help do.
I mean if we're being fair Lex Luthor keeps getting those opportunities much like Doctor Doom even with them doing horrible shit inbetween and they squander those opportunities for petty, selfish, or outright stupid reasons technical reason being "we can't change status quo even when we can". And then you have characters like Darkseid, Joker, and others who realistically can't be redeemed and wouldn't want to be but still show up to create chaos and havoc as if it hasn't gotten stale by now.
Or have Superman's desire to be a HERO impress Zod and have him leave without doing any more damage, but maybe he'll return someday. Have Zod be inspired and sacrifice himself while doing a save of civilians he didn't care about earlier.
After all the stuff Zod did in MOS that would've been a much harder sell.
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After all the stuff Zod did in MOS that would've been a much harder sell.
Again. The WRITERS are responsible for that. Both the setup and the "payoff."
We're not talking about a story based on historical events.
If they were written into a corner where the only way to win was to snap Zod's neck, it's because they wrote it that way.
Obviously you're not going to do a Shonen style multi-year turnaround over the course of a single movie, but that's on the writers.
Heck, if they absolutely positively HAD to kill him, there were other ways to do it.
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That's the moment he STOPPED being a super hero though. He just became a murderer who couldn't find a better way.The writers just had to want it.
I dont think the writers wanted there to be another because for Zack Snyder a hero that can't go that far is probably a coward because you put your moral over what is needed. His superman does what is needed.
Kind farmboy raised by loving parents grows up wanting to help people. Clark is Clark, Superman is the disguise. He shouldn't NEED a lesson. There shouldn't BE any quandry of "maybe you should have let that bus full of children drown." "Maybe you should let your father be killed by a tornado."
MoS and Perry White line about not being in 1930s is a reflection of Snyder disagreeing with that belief.
I disagree with Snyder's interpratation of superman. For me his values doesnt come from some inherent goodness but how well his parent raise him and he is superman thanks to them. I think the closest I got to a superman feeling is Wonder woman. My post was responding to the idea that Zack failed at the message he wanted to make. Whereas I think he did excatly what he wanted it's just different then how most people see Superman.
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Zack Snyder is the guy that looked at Watchmen and thought Rorsharch was the cool main character instead of the unwashed gross unlikeable right wing crazy he was written as. (And edited his dialogue in the film to aid in this.)
Snyder looked at the deconstructions that were Watchmen and Dark Knight, and without context for the decades surrounding them, didn't understand they were satires, showing why the characters being like that were BAD.
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Snyder boasted about Batman dropping the F-bomb in his movie. I think that about says it all.
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Snyder boasted about Batman dropping the F-bomb in his movie. I think that about says it all.
People will remember Batman Damned for what it showed the world than Batman dropping an F-Bomb.
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Been waiting on this casting. Pierce Brosnan playing Fate confirmed for the Black Adam film
Woohoo! I love Pierce, and I love Fate, so this is wonderful news.
Dr. Fate was my favorite second-tier character in JLU, not the least of which for his voice. (Can you imagine how cool it would also have been to get Oded Fehr to play him?)
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Woohoo! I love Pierce, and I love Fate, so this is wonderful news.
Dr. Fate was my favorite second-tier character in JLU, not the least of which for his voice. (Can you imagine how cool it would also have been to get Oded Fehr to play him?)
Oded would be great as well. I loved that little club of Fate, Aquaman, Shayera and Amazo. That show is so underrated.
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New trailer for The Suicide Squad just dropped today.
Had to change the link since it's age-gated.
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Starro!!!
The trailer (and director) have me excited. Just hoping we don't get a rehash of what happened the last time a Suicide Squad trailer got our hopes up.
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Suicide Squad trailer just…didn't click. can't really point out why, though
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The best part is, aside from Harley and I guess Captain Boomerang, its all C-listers so any one of them is disposable this time around.
There is no telling who makes it out.
It'd be extra fun if they filmed it like Clue and had multiple endings.
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It would be extra fun, but I doubt they'll do it. Nobody's followed in Clue's prestigious footsteps.
New trailer for The Suicide Squad just dropped today.
Had to change the link since it's age-gated.
Hahahaha. "Num num".
And yes, Gunn has confirmed that King Shark is voiced by Sylvester Stalone:
https://movieweb.com/the-suicide-squad-sylvester-stallone-king-shark/?fbclid=IwAR0Z1fHiKC7EhMykiiNY9rXJxjGZ9WM5Prj-Oi_B2LwSm-V2ht9lc1JfdNM -
I see James Gunn is continuing his trend of using 70's music.
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Okay, as someone who can't stand Gunn's GotG, this looks good. Probably because it doesn't have the brobro shtick the guardians have.
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If you were wondering why King Shark is a Great White here instead of a Hammerhead like he is in the comics:
https://movieweb.com/the-suicide-squad-king-shark-why-great-white/?fbclid=IwAR1O5VJn-25pr1hE6QJeo2mK_NZsBfdQhP4FfUfwJ_djTAIpK8-XM2_Tc-U -
https://www.cbr.com/watchmen-killed-ozymandias-zack-snyder/
So Snyder directed Watchmen to keep a change from to the books from happening…....and then made other changes anyway?
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If you were wondering why King Shark is a Great White here instead of a Hammerhead like he is in the comics:
https://movieweb.com/the-suicide-squad-king-shark-why-great-white/?fbclid=IwAR1O5VJn-25pr1hE6QJeo2mK_NZsBfdQhP4FfUfwJ_djTAIpK8-XM2_Tc-UThe simpler answer, Harley Quinn's Tv King Shark is great.
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https://www.cbr.com/watchmen-killed-ozymandias-zack-snyder/
So Snyder directed Watchmen to keep a change from to the books from happening…....and then made other changes anyway?
A hack is always a hack.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I didn't watch the Snyder cut but I can image this is pretty spot on:
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So they give us a second, much more serious, Suicide Squad trailer . . . on April 1st:
Being April Fools, do we take this trailer with a grain of salt?
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King Shark and Harley really are out here trying to be my favorite characters, huh? I'm all for it.
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With every trailer I see I become more and more convinced that Polka-Dot Man will not die.
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Polka-Dot man is the single greatest comic book character of all time and I refuse to let anyone belittle him
Also I find it funny that Sean Gunn plays both Rocket in Marvel and Weasel in DC
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I didn't watch the Snyder cut but I can image this is pretty spot on:
What people don't seem to get, is that all of that is 100% subjective.
As for this marveljunkies video. They're probably just trying to not contradict themselves with their precedent opinions
And I didn't even watch this movie too, not even planning to.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So they give us a second, much more serious, Suicide Squad trailer . . . on April 1st:
Being April Fools, do we take this trailer with a grain of salt?
Stopped watching at the 47th second
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So… the Synder Cut managed to actually kill an entirely separate movie about the New Gods. Lovely.
Thanks for nothing Zack.
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So… the Synder Cut managed to actually kill an entirely separate movie about the New Gods. Lovely.
Thanks for nothing Zack.
Wait how the Snydercut do that? Also god damn that would have been cool, although knowing DC’s track record I wouldn’t exactly be confident they could deliver
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Wait how the Snydercut do that? Also god damn that would have been cool, although knowing DC’s track record I wouldn’t exactly be confident they could deliver
Apparently the producers didn't want to bring back Darkseid so soon.
https://www.cbr.com/new-gods-movie-save-darkseid-justice-league/
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Apparently the producers didn't want to bring back Darkseid so soon.
https://www.cbr.com/new-gods-movie-save-darkseid-justice-league/
Cool cool thanks for the info
man that sucks though, I love the new gods, Jack Kirby is the man
also for anyone who wants to know who the characters in suicide squad are
I completely understand if you want to go in blind or if your obsessed with DC and already know all these characters
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Wait how the Snydercut do that? Also god damn that would have been cool, although knowing DC’s track record I wouldn’t exactly be confident they could deliver
Because he used the New Gods villains and Warners doesn't want to confuse audiences by having Darkseid and Granny Goodness in two films back to back, when they're trying to move AWAY from the Synder stuff.. and they don't want the deluxe cut to be required viewing. Their universe is enough of a mess already.
Similar to how Justice League and Teen Titans couldn't use any Batman villains because there was another Batman show at the time.
Of course currently DC is okay with having 8 different unrelated Batman projects but I guess they now decided THOSE characters are well known enough to get away with it.
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I guess appearing in multiple films back to back is only okay if you’re
QuinnpoolHarlequinn.Even when the reception to at least two of those films were meh.
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I also feel like an issue with New Gods, is most people care mostly just about Darkseid. Maybe some other people from Apokolips, but there's not really much of a interest in anyone from New Genesis, aside from Mister Miracle.
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New Gods was suppose to follow Scott, Barda, and Granny mostly. I would prefer Orion to be followed as well in the same sense as Leo (Scott) and Damon (Orion) in Departed, but Ava has never mentioned him. Ava and Tom have both kept people updated about that at least. Her interactions with fans over Barda and the Furies is what I remember the most. She is similar to Gunn when it comes to fan transparency, despite WB being a shithole studio that is against communicating to the fans their plans. While Feige is the complete opposite.
I believe that Warner intends to continue the Snyder mess and this is why Ava's New Gods film was shelved. The studio is constantly keeping the fans out the loop and Snyder has said that he's done. Mangold has spoken to the division at the studio when it comes to his Sandman series and why it never came to be. They're gonna wait til The Suicide Squad campaign is well and done, then sneak the Snyder mess back in as in development for some HBO Max hybrid release. Snyder most likely will agree to it, even tho he appears done with the whole bit. It's all theatrics.
Black Adam begins filming next week. The Batman is done filming and is in post production. Andy begins filming The Flash in the next few months.
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More evidence of how Joss Whedon was an ass filming Justice League:
https://www.insider.com/joss-whedon-threatened-gal-gadot-career-justice-league-2021-4?fbclid=IwAR0_seBu0gF9Nk5SosRd34Wf49EnTofdCaqZqQ04pZN8KB6dFUhzpwFRi6oApparently being a classic bully, but especially to Gal Gadot.
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Is it bad that I’m still going to watch Joss Whedon’s new show the Nevers when it comes out?
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No, why would it be? It's not like he's a murderer, he's "just" an ass. It's crappy, but I try to separate art and artist from another.
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I guess appearing in multiple films back to back is only okay if you’re
QuinnpoolHarlequinn.Even when the reception to at least two of those films were meh.
Suicide Squad made 800 million (based almost entirely on the strength of its trailers.) So of course another one got greenlit.
Birds of Prey was generally liked… by the audiences that saw it. But the title was bad bad bad.