You can't win over crab mentality
American Politics: A Brand New Day
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Representatives Pramila Jayapal and Debbie Dingell introduced the Medicare For All Act today, and it's co-sponsored by over a hundred house Democrats.
I'm finally starting to have hope that some of our most important long-term problems will really start improving under Biden (who just announced yesterday that he supports reforming the filibuster, another huge piece of good news).
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Hopefully M4A never makes it to the senate.
And yeah the fillabuster will probably get some kind of reform in the near future. As soon as Manchin is done cycling as he loves to ride that bike of his for all its worth.
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@Dorobō:
Hopefully M4A never makes it to the senate.
See, this is why I keep thinking you're anti-progressive.
What reason do you have to want M4A to fail?
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Because republicans will fiercely oppose and force for a settlement that's less than ideal?
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What reason do you have to want M4A to fail?
It will fail, nothing to do with a want. Already stated reasons why it will fail but sure here you go again, a few reasons it sucks:
1. It costs way too much.
2. I never ever ever ever ever want the GOP to be in charge of my healthcare.
3. It's not popular when you actually go into details about it and will cause the Democratic Party to lose a few elections. Which is bad.
4. A mixed healthcare system like Germany or Japan is a lot better. Most of all with a All-payer rate setting like they and my state have.
5. Reducing industry profits will also result in layoffs and hits to people's 401(k)s.
6. It failed in fucking Vermont which resulted in a Republican governor. Which you know, thanks Bernie.
The progressive thing is to want universal healthcare and pick the best option that would lead us there. Not stick to slogans of failed candidates that promised way too much and could never deliver. Time to move on. Or just ignore these points like I am sure you will just like the last time this topic came up.
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Because republicans will fiercely oppose and force for a settlement that's less than ideal?
They should no longer have the authority to force a settlement.
We have no reason to expect a single Republican has any chance of voting for it, so why even bother negotiating at this point?The Democrats can pass it with budget reconciliation if the public can convince the remaining senate Democrats to support it.
I don't expect the bill to pass in its current form on the first try, but we have almost two years and a good number of extremely unpleasant new incarnations of COVID are on the horizon that might help motivate them to move a little faster. -
Oh and Biden will veto it if the price is too much. Which is why you're not going to get many Dems on board with it. Would have been nice to have someone who knows how to budget these things really well in a position of power but alas she was too mean to Saint Bernard.
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So remember how QAnon Lady said that Guam was a "foreign country" and "shouldn't get any assistance from the US? Well, the rep. and troops from Guam visited her office. With cookies:
https://secondnexus.com/marjorie-taylor-greene-guam-guard?fbclid=IwAR3pAVUJpyYPO4F2utw7AZ-oRKChr9_PgBl_K0VuCAFmasZZ4Nu_eLQyCigHowever QAnon Lady being the nutjob that she is released a letter to the Pentagon whining that these guys AMBUSHED her office (with cookies). Well, I guess she would know what an "ambush" would look like.
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I don't understand the obsession with M4A. Why don't you at least start with the healthcare system that the rest of the world has. It's a much more realistic goal and would be an enormous improvement. The US electorate is relatively right wing and conservative. M4A just isn't going to happen until that changes.
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@Dorobō:
It's very hard to convince someone why they should pay for someone else's agreed upon debt tbh.
The system is awful and I feel for all those poor folks around 2008 that got hit the hardest. A compromise is what we should brace for when it comes to student debt though. A full on forgiveness is just not going to happen. I would say that even if Bernie or Warren were president. It's just more complicated than some people get.
That's fair. I always viewed it as something that would be "nice" but just not possible in my lifetime. As a prevous post said the U.S is too conservative in this regard to even bother. Too many minds would have to be changed, a large % being the types that balk at any sort of government help.
And idk about 2022. Last time there was a trifecta with a 50/50 senate, the majority party actually ending up winning more seats. Everyone just got helped by the ARPA so the chances are not bad for the Democratic party. But even if we added 1-2 more senate seats, student debt forgiveness will still be at the bottom. There is just more pressing issues in my view. Free or cheaper education in general I would put higher up. But yeah if there is room in the budget after all that we should see what we can do.
If anything I'd like to unfuck the health care system before tackling student loan forgiveness (as it's applicable to more parts of a person's life), but even that has a ton of hurdles to go through.
Now mind you I say a lot of this as someone that has never been to college so no debt to speak of but I am someone that has had trouble putting food on the table so my priorities are vastly different than other people around my age.
Understandable.
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I don't understand the obsession with M4A. Why don't you at least start with the healthcare system that the rest of the world has. It's a much more realistic goal and would be an enormous improvement. The US electorate is relatively right wing and conservative. M4A just isn't going to happen until that changes.
It's popular and easy to understand because a lot of people already have Medicare.
I'm not opposed to other healthcare options but now that a bill's been introduced with support from more than half of the Democrats in the house, there's real potential for something similar to pass within the next year and a half.The US electorate is socially conservative but highly supportive of major progressive economic, infrastructure and regulatory reforms.
People want the minimum wage raised, they want far more COVID stimulus checks, and they desperately want better healthcare.
They want the right to smoke weed freely and for rich people to pay more in taxes.That's why Fox News has spent the last month whining about Dr Seuss and Mr Potato Head and Speedy Gonzales and Lola Bunny and Pepe Le Pew. They can't win on policy any more, so they're forced to go with "THE LEFT RUINED GHOSTBUSTERS AND STAR WARS AND THEY'RE COMING FOR THE REST OF YOUR DVD SHELF!"
@Dorobō:
It will fail, nothing to do with a want. Already stated reasons why it will fail but sure here you go again, a few reasons it sucks:
1. It costs way too much.
No one in power actually seems to care about how much anything costs.
If we were consistently fiscally responsible I might be more willing to consider issues of cost, but we've spent trillions dropping dozens of bombs a day on countries we never needed to be at war with.
Just last year we blew a trillion dollars because it was a pandemic and the few rich people who weren't told in advance that a pandemic was coming lost some money.Yes, on paper we should care about how much stuff costs, but in practice any time someone brings up cost it's a right-wing or neoliberal trick and not something seriously worth considering.
@Dorobō:
2. I never ever ever ever ever want the GOP to be in charge of my healthcare.
I understand that concern, it's valid.
However the healthcare situation is so dire for most of the country that I think it's worth the risk that Republicans will someday screw it up.@Dorobō:
3. It's not popular when you actually go into details about it and will cause the Democratic Party to lose a few elections. Which is bad.
Citation needed.
I really don't see Biden losing in 2024 because he passed Medicare for All during a pandemic, and if Biden is popular he can prop up Democrats in Congress.@Dorobō:
4. A mixed healthcare system like Germany or Japan is a lot better. Most of all with a All-payer rate setting like they and my state have.
If that becomes the only plan that makes it to Biden's desk I'll support it, but it really doesn't seem to have a lot of momentum right now.
I'm admittedly not the most informed person when it comes to the various healthcare plans, but I do know that Medicare works and Medicare HMOs are a pain.
Whenever the health insurance industry is involved, they'll lie and find ways to cheat you.@Dorobō:
5. Reducing industry profits will also result in layoffs and hits to people's 401(k)s.
This really reveals the source of your bias: you have money.
No one I know from my generation has a 401K.It's unfortunate that some people will lose their jobs, but many of those were useless administrative jobs to begin with.
If we all get good healthcare out of this I am willing to sacrifice those jobs, and hopefully those people will either land on their feet or join the rest of us in demanding UBI.@Dorobō:
6. It failed in fucking Vermont which resulted in a Republican governor. Which you know, thanks Bernie.
This one really confuses me, because I've read that it was never actually implemented as a result of sabotage from Republicans, the healthcare industry, and Vermont's then-neoliberal governor.
The idea that Sue Minter lost because of single payer doesn't really seem to be that popular or well-founded, and I'm seeing a bunch of different arguments on Google about why she lost.Regardless, implementing a single payer plan on the federal level is very different from doing so on a state level, so I'm not that concerned.
She wasn't even running against a Trumpian, openly-fascist candidate, so Biden vs Trump 2024 will be nothing like Minter vs Scott 2016.@Dorobō:
The progressive thing is to want universal healthcare and pick the best option that would lead us there. Not stick to slogans of failed candidates that promised way too much and could never deliver. Time to move on. Or just ignore these points like I am sure you will just like the last time this topic came up.
The progressive thing is to support universal healthcare in general and not wish for a good plan to fail as soon as it starts getting real momentum in congress just because it was the signature policy of a failed candidate you don't like.
You saw how much I hated Biden during the first half of the election, yet I still showed up to vote for him because his policies were better than Trump and he was obviously going to be a better leader than Trump.
Edit: @Dorobō:
Now mind you I say a lot of this as someone that has never been to college so no debt to speak of but I am someone that has had trouble putting food on the table so my priorities are vastly different than other people around my age.
Alright, now I'm really confused about where you're at economically.
I'm poor, disabled and have struggled for most of my life while watching friends and family be constantly harassed and sometimes financially ruined by the healthcare industry.If you're familiar with the plight of the lower class, why do you care if a few people with 401Ks lose their jobs?
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Another reason republicans and Mitch McConnell can fuck off into the sun
I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284
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I think that a lot of people tend to have trouble noticing that they assume themselves to be part of a larger majority.
Just because you see things, or live in, a certain way does not mean that most people also do that. Sometimes, though it might be hard to admit or come to terms with, you are a part of a minority.
I don’t think that most people use Medicare. And for that reason, I think that most people will probably be opposed to Medicare for all.
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Another reason republicans and Mitch McConnell can fuck off into the sun
Doesn't seem to be concerned that his Asian wife could get targeted either.
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Doesn't seem to be concerned that his Asian wife could get targeted either.
Well combined her and him have enough money between themselves to hire their own personal security. Which given how shitty of an individual Mitch is and enjoys being he'd need.
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I think that a lot of people tend to have trouble noticing that they assume themselves to be part of a larger majority.
Just because you see things, or live in, a certain way does not mean that most people also do that. Sometimes, though it might be hard to admit or come to terms with, you are a part of a minority.
I don’t think that most people use Medicare. And for that reason, I think that most people will probably be opposed to Medicare for all.
A little over 22% of voters use Medicare, so yes that's a minority.
However, M4A has consistently polled at above 50% since before the pandemic began, and the vast majority of Democrats support it.I think it's strange to assume that just because most people can't get Medicare the majority oppose expanding it, especially when all the polls say the opposite is true.
Edit: A good short summary of the history of anti-Asian racism in the US:
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No one in power actually seems to care about how much anything costs.
This is a bad argument. In Biden's own words about M4A, "It's time to get real" and he says that knowing the costs are way too much.
Yes, on paper we should care about how much stuff costs, but in practice any time someone brings up cost it's a right-wing or neoliberal trick and not something seriously worth considering.
No we should care about it now because we all know who will get the bill. 30 to 40 Trillion dollars is something we should be concerned with. Jesus Christ a year and half of Bernie's M4A is equal, if not more, to like the last 20 years of all our military exercises. When you're talking about reforming 1/6th of our whole economy you better know how much it will cost and what that cost will lead to. Never mind that one tiny mistake can lead to millions of people suffering. It's not something you can ignore or say it is a trick. It costs way to much to take risks here.
I understand that concern, it's valid.
However the healthcare situation is so dire for most of the country that I think it's worth the risk that Republicans will someday screw it up.Do you? Because you would not be saying that if you did. We pass this untested way too costly bill and the second the Republicans get their hands on it (and they will) they will make life living hell for millions and millions of Americans. That risk is very much a high one that needs to be actually addressed and it really sounds like you don't get what happens when this fucks up.
Citation needed.
This link was already giving to you by someone else last year and you ignored it, as you do. Since it's proof it's not as popular as you think it is and the polls you're reading are not accurate since they don't go into asking about finer details. When you ask about the tax increases or replacing their healthcare with Medicare/Medicaid, it looses popularity. Every single time.
I really don't see Biden losing in 2024 because he passed Medicare for All during a pandemic, and if Biden is popular he can prop up Democrats in Congress.
Biden might survive but congress will be DoA for the Democratic Party and yes 2028 you should expect a Republican to get back in the White House. Then your M4A is fucked more than it already would be. It's going to take a phase in period of a few years anyway. Something Warren at least seemed to understand which oh right, lost her progressives points for some reason. It will come in time just to fuck us over in 2028. It will not be a magic fix all to all of our problems. It will make more problems.
If that becomes the only plan that makes it to Biden's desk I'll support it, but it really doesn't seem to have a lot of momentum right now.
Something we should change instead of wanting a DoA bill to be vetoed off his desk because again, it costs way too much.
I'm admittedly not the most informed person when it comes to the various healthcare plans
That's fine. That's why I am trying to explain to you why the one you want is way too expensive and forceful to work.
This really reveals the source of your bias: you have money.
Oh I wish. lol
It's unfortunate that some people will lose their jobs, but many of those were useless administrative jobs to begin with.
If we all get good healthcare out of this I am willing to sacrifice those jobs, and hopefully those people will either land on their feet or join the rest of us in demanding UBI.Their sacrifices are what you're willing to make? Your lack of empathy and understanding the job market is noted.
This one really confuses me, because I've read that it was never actually implemented as a result of sabotage from Republicans, the healthcare industry, and Vermont's then-neoliberal governor.
So you're saying it failed before it even began? Wonderful.
That article has a clear bias and not really getting into what actually happened so to counter it, here is a bias one more in favor of the former governor and then two that are more to the point and accurate about why it failed. Spoilers, it costs too much.
Regardless, implementing a single payer plan on the federal level is very different from doing so on a state level, so I'm not that concerned.
You're right, way more people will suffer from its failures on the federal level. You should be deeply concerned because this is not an easy on/off switch here.
The progressive thing is to support universal healthcare in general and not wish for a good plan to fail as soon as it starts getting real momentum in congress just because it was the signature policy of a failed candidate you don't like.
Again, it's not a want or a wish, it's something that will fail. Because it is bad. The only reason you go for it is because you got suckered in by Bernie's horseshit.
Bernie made the whole primary about healthcare and he lost to the guy who is against M4A. So why not go for something progressive that will have a better shot?
You saw how much I hated Biden during the first half of the election,
Yes it was obnoxious and ignoring reality at every turn.
yet I still showed up to vote for him because his policies were better than Trump and he was obviously going to be a better leader than Trump.
That's good and the right thing to do. Supporting an untested healthcare plan that's not even all that popular with great risks is not good or the right thing to do.
Alright, now I'm really confused about where you're at economically.
Bottom of the tax bracket, normally a restaurant worker, currently unemployed due to the pandemic, always at risk of becoming homeless.
If you're familiar with the plight of the lower class, why do you care if a few people with 401Ks lose their jobs?
Because I am not an asshole? Because I understand the job market?
I mean asking why do you care about people losing their jobs is just a shitty thing to ask really. It was a side point more than most of the other points but it's still valid to care and yes, understand the point is there will be more pushback at The Democratic Party if Biden becomes stupid and passes such an awful bill that hurts people.
This whole thing is moot and pointless because it's going to never get up to Biden's desk nor would he sign it if it did.
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If the US could overnight have the health care plan every other civilized country in the world has, with everything about it worked out and in place, that'd be great. Sure, pass that shit immediately.
But much like "make college free" and "green new deal" the costs and logistics and systems supporting it are enormous and would affect the economy at every conceivable level and willl take years to figure out the logistics. Talking something like 1/5 or 1/6 of the entire budget to get that going.
And the first time Republicans get in to fuck it up to try and privatize it more, they will, just look at the willfull and completely intentional destruction of post office.
Its something that has to be done in steps. Hell, people are still complaining about Obamacare raising their taxes (even though it doesn't affect you below a certain point) so gotta do it in bits and piece. Start by doing something like, put a profit limit on lifesaving drugs. It shouldn't cost anyone 700$ a month for insulin or blood pressure meds when that costs pennies to produce.
College? Yeah it'd be great to just forgive all student debt, that would do wonders for the economy but… what happens to all the banks that have financial tie ins that have moved money around that doesn't exist? So you CAN'T just do that. But maybe... significant (really significant) tax breaks if you're paying student debt or have a child in college? That could be done. Or force an upper cap on how much tuition is, that's expanded waaaay past inflation and that bubble needs popping. (Same with the housing market.)
Similarly, Green New Deal in all its glory isn't going to happen. We NEED to do a lot of things to move towards no emissions, but it just can't all be eliminated immmediately. All cars going forward should be hybrids, and after say, 2030 all cars should be fully electric (and car companies are doing that anyway) but you can't just declare "no more gas stations and all solar power by 2025", it just aint gonna happen.
We need a 15$ minimum wage (really it should be at 20 by now) but that would kill a lot of industries, especially those being hurt by covid that already can't stay open. So you have to set a scale. Like say, any company with 2000+ employees nationwide has to hit the minmum. Or any company where a CEO make 1 million+ $ a year must raise their employees minimum wage. Businesses that have less than 4 employees can increase it slowly over the next several years. And everyone in between on a sliding scale. Companies will have to increase to compete anyway, but it won't instantly kill mom and pop shops. Plus, costs in one state are different from the next. You have to make more in California than you do in Ohio.
Progress that is actually possible rather than wishes that are impossible needs to be the goal.
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That's my mind set really.
Like you can point to a poll that says the majority of people in West Virginia want the $15 minimum wage increase and Senator Manchin wants it to be $11 or $12 instead so clearly he is just in the wrong right? But much like those M4A polls, ask those same yeses if they would be okay with losing their jobs for it, which many would, and then support dies fast.
Got to be bit by bit.
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Yeah, Robo, you have a really bad habit of oversimplifying things that you favor and ignoring the obvious answer when you don’t like it.
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"Do you want the minimum wage increased to 15$?"
"Yes, of course!"
"Okay, your department has five people in it. Two of them have to be fired, and the rest of you can no longer get overtime or dental. Who do you choose?"That's the reality of raising the minimum wage to almost double, everywhere, all at once.
It NEEDS to rise, yes, it should have risen twenty years ago, but a more nuanced solution is needed.
(Also, this time around whatever they do, they need to find SOME way to tie it to inflation so it rises automatically every few years rather than getting frozen for decades again, but I'm not sure exactly what the sensible way of defining "inflation" is, or what actual thing you'd tie that to.)
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If there was an easy answer that solved all the problems with no negative side effects someone would have figured it out already
This applies to more than just that situation
There’s absolutely no perfect solution that solves all problems and helps everybody, there’s no magical cure
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If there was an easy answer that solved all the problems with no negative side effects someone would have figured it out already
There's a lot of cases where the perfect (or at least really good) solution is arrived at, but politics and greed keep it from happening.
We've known about global warming for centuries, we've really known about it since the 80's, and we've started seeing the horrific side effects and have no choice but to admit it in the last few years (and still people deny) but the political will and the cash to fight big oil isn't there.
We could have had cars that run on water and corn oil, or electric, decades ago. You can argue that the pure tech for solar and wind and whatnot just wasn't good enough yet… but it also didn't start getting really focused on until relatively recently, when it could have been developed and refined for the last century instead..
Universal health care is easy overall. Put a tiny bit onto everyone's taxes, and let doctors offices send vouchers to the government, and the costs drop dramatically. When everyone is taking care of their little problems, and they aren't terrified of going to doctor because it'll bankrupt them (don't dare call an ambulance!) the big scares and costs don't jump out at them so suddenly. Canada did in in 1957 because they had people determined to make it happen and figured out the logistics. Germany managed it in the 19th century! Literally just copy their homework and get it done! Except congress is a mess and can't get the votes and too many politicians are bought by pharmaceuticals that want all the profit, so it doesn't happen.
The US is the only country where the plot of Breaking Bad, where a man sells meth to pay his medical bills, makes sense.
Forgiving student debt can't be done all at once, ditto housing market, because banks are tied up in it all, but you could force limits on interests rates and stuff. The solutions ARE there, and even some of the big stuff is actually pretty easy... if we can get people to go along with it. That's the big hold up.
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This post is deleted!
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If the US could overnight have the health care plan every other civilized country in the world has, with everything about it worked out and in place, that'd be great. Sure, pass that shit immediately.
But much like "make college free" and "green new deal" the costs and logistics and systems supporting it are enormous and would affect the economy at every conceivable level and willl take years to figure out the logistics. Talking something like 1/5 or 1/6 of the entire budget to get that going.
And the first time Republicans get in to fuck it up to try and privatize it more, they will, just look at the willfull and completely intentional destruction of post office.
Its something that has to be done in steps. Hell, people are still complaining about Obamacare raising their taxes (even though it doesn't affect you below a certain point) so gotta do it in bits and piece. Start by doing something like, put a profit limit on lifesaving drugs. It shouldn't cost anyone 700$ a month for insulin or blood pressure meds when that costs pennies to produce.
College? Yeah it'd be great to just forgive all student debt, that would do wonders for the economy but… what happens to all the banks that have financial tie ins that have moved money around that doesn't exist? So you CAN'T just do that. But maybe... significant (really significant) tax breaks if you're paying student debt or have a child in college? That could be done. Or force an upper cap on how much tuition is, that's expanded waaaay past inflation and that bubble needs popping. (Same with the housing market.)
Similarly, Green New Deal in all its glory isn't going to happen. We NEED to do a lot of things to move towards no emissions, but it just can't all be eliminated immmediately. All cars going forward should be hybrids, and after say, 2030 all cars should be fully electric (and car companies are doing that anyway) but you can't just declare "no more gas stations and all solar power by 2025", it just aint gonna happen.
We need a 15$ minimum wage (really it should be at 20 by now) but that would kill a lot of industries, especially those being hurt by covid that already can't stay open. So you have to set a scale. Like say, any company with 2000+ employees nationwide has to hit the minmum. Or any company where a CEO make 1 million+ $ a year must raise their employees minimum wage. Businesses that have less than 4 employees can increase it slowly over the next several years. And everyone in between on a sliding scale. Companies will have to increase to compete anyway, but it won't instantly kill mom and pop shops. Plus, costs in one state are different from the next. You have to make more in California than you do in Ohio.
Progress that is actually possible rather than wishes that are impossible needs to be the goal.
@Dorobō:
That's my mind set really.
Like you can point to a poll that says the majority of people in West Virginia want the $15 minimum wage increase and Senator Manchin wants it to be $11 or $12 instead so clearly he is just in the wrong right? But much like those M4A polls, ask those same yeses if they would be okay with losing their jobs for it, which many would, and then support dies fast.
Got to be bit by bit.
Yeah, Robo, you have a really bad habit of oversimplifying things that you favor and ignoring the obvious answer when you don’t like it.
"Do you want the minimum wage increased to 15$?"
"Yes, of course!"
"Okay, your department has five people in it. Two of them have to be fired, and the rest of you can no longer get overtime or dental. Who do you choose?"That's the reality of raising the minimum wage to almost double, everywhere, all at once.
It NEEDS to rise, yes, it should have risen twenty years ago, but a more nuanced solution is needed.
(Also, this time around whatever they do, they need to find SOME way to tie it to inflation so it rises automatically every few years rather than getting frozen for decades again, but I'm not sure exactly what the sensible way of defining "inflation" is, or what actual thing you'd tie that to.)
There's a weird misrepresentation of what I said going on here, and some serious goalpost moving.
I explicitly said that I'll support whatever will get the job done, and nobody said it had to happen overnight.The fact that there's a M4A bill with this much support in the House is a good sign that it's possible that something similar could be signed into law within the next two years.
That doesn't mean that we get free healthcare in 2023, even if it does happen.
Also, this conversation started because someone was outright rooting for the bill to fail.
@Dorobō:
Hopefully M4A never makes it to the senate.
The fact that it got pushed from "hey what the hell, why would you even say that?" to "Robo you need to stop assuming that single payer is literally going to happen by the end of the week" almost immediately really bothers me.
If incrementalism is the way and some other bill will more realistically bring us to the goal of socialized medicine, that's fine, but I'm genuinely surprised and disappointed that we've heard nothing about it since the election.
It really does seem like M4A is the way we're going at the moment because nothing else has political momentum.
If it fails because Trump 2.0 kills it before it's properly implemented, that'll be horrible but I expect the same thing to happen with any other national healthcare plan if the Republicans win in 2028.
If Biden does such a good job that people feel like he helped substantially improve their lives after eight years, my hope is that we'll get at least a third term of Democrat rule and that will be enough time to get single payer fully up and running (as well as at least a $20 minimum wage).If Republicans do win in 2024 or 2028… well that's not a great reason to just give up on passing major new programs.
They destroyed the post office, they'll shred anything they can, old or new.We just have to hope that there are enough John McCains to stop the people who want to tear the country up and sell it piece by piece, and enough people on the left willing to repair the torn edges afterward.
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Again it's not so much a want, it will fail. But yes I do want it to fail so we can move onto an actual public option rather than a garbage plan that people think is a public option.
Like you're ignoring the reality that it's not going to pass. At all. Single payer is unpopular and not going to happen. It's not the way we're heading so this is a huge waste of time. Focus on what can actually get done instead.
Hey, if you don't mind me asking, how was it moving to Canada? Did you have an okay/easy time getting on their healthcare plan?
I asked this because one thing I think gets missed a lot in the healthcare debate is immigration. Like Europe has UHC in many of its countries but they tend to be way less left/progressive on immigration than the US is, which I think is part of why they have UHC to be frank.
We're the only country (and we're a huge country at that) it seems trying to juggle a flawed, yet still progressive vs the world immigration system while trying to also get UHC in place. And I have heard moving to Canada is a bit of the same thing as Europe, like you need a job they want in order to become a citizen and then it still takes a few years before you can get on their healthcare system? Is that correct or what you had to go through? If you can fill me in for how it was for you that would be great. Always curious about the personal dealings within these systems.
I know they don't cover dental which to me needs to get discussed more in this topic as well. Teeth pain/issues are the worst.
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Fun fact: The day after Trump got elected the Canadian immigration website crashed.
I have heard there's a helluva lot of red tape in the immigration process in Canada.
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Laughs in a collapsing free universal healthcare.
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In a bit of nice news, Deb Haaland has been confirmed as Biden's Secretary of the Interior, making her the first Native American to be a cabinet secretary:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/deb-haaland-confirmed-as-interior-secretary-in-first-for-native-american-11615847520Part of what makes this so important is that the Interior is in charge of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, so appointing a qualified Native American is both fitting and significant (she's Pueblo). Not to mention the Bureau is in charge of the National Parks and endangered species conservation, and she does have a history of environmental activism. Woot!
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Yeah, that is some great news! Crazy that it’s taken so long for Native Americans to get representation on the Cabinet.
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Maybe the first thing she can do is change the name from Bureau of Indian Affairs to Bureau of Native American Affairs.
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@Dorobō:
Hey, if you don't mind me asking, how was it moving to Canada? Did you have an okay/easy time getting on their healthcare plan?
Well, I did it by getting married to a citizen, and we had proof of being together for several years (lots of photos, passport stamps, rent checks, etc.) so that helped.
There was a LOT of paperwork. A LOT. Plus waiting on an official marriage certificate, a couple doctor visits and some fees involved, lots of waiitng for forms to process.
Even with the marriage it overall took about a year and a half (but six months of that was waiting for an official marriage certificate rather than a marriage confirmation paper… different legalities and they delay that for obvious reasons.) and between the various paperwork fees and doctor visits maybe around 1,000-1,500$ total I'd say? I think they also required proof that the relationship had been happening for at least 2 years on top of that, so a quickie wedding with someone you just met wouldn't cut it. I may be forgetting stuff but that was the bulk of it.
Once I had a permanent residence card (which I need to renew every five years unless I go for full citizenship) getting the healthcare card was super easy, it was literally a walk in at store just down the street, and they gave mem a temp card immediately and real one arrived in the mail pretty quick..
Despite what Hollywood tells you, getting married to a foreigner isn't instant citizenship, there's a fair bit more process and waiting involved than that.
I imagine the process is probably pretty similar without the marriage if you're going in for a job or whatnot, but might have a higher chance of being denied or need more formal letters or a sponsor. Might take a bit longer too.
All told it took about 4 years total to get me into the system, though some of that was not getting married right away, but like I said, they wanted proof of a long term relationship anyway. Also made buying a house difficult because I'd been paying canadian taxes less than 2 years when we were looking so they only cared about my wife's income.
So no, someone just walking into the country and immediately leeching the system does not happen, they'd have to go through the multi-year process and be paying taxes and stuff before they were eligible.
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So no, someone just walking into the country and immediately leeching the system does not happen, they'd have to go through the multi-year process and be paying taxes and stuff before they were eligible.
Thank you for the detailed response!
And yeah it matches up with a lot of stories I have heard and seen. The big secret to a lot of these countries with universal healthcare is that they are also way more restrictive on the immigration process. Which is important in the discussion when it comes to comparing what the USA needs to what Europe/Canada already have. We need UHC and we need to keep on making immigration as easy as can be. Which is a hard request but not impossible.
Add this as another reason I am not for M4A because I truly don't see how an extreme plan like that would work without going even…. harder than Trump did on immigration.
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I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284
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It is interesting that a religion based on the tenets of love and understanding has so many adherents who are scornful, hateful wretches.
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@Johnny:
It is interesting that a religion based on the tenets of love and understanding has so many adherents who are scornful, hateful wretches.
You're restricting it to the Abrahamic ones? Because the same applies to pretty much all of them, including condescending or proselytist atheists.
I think the safer to say that has zero hatefulness in it is Buddhism. -
You're restricting it to the Abrahamic ones? Because the same applies to pretty much all of them, including condescending or proselytist atheists.
I think the safer to say that has zero hatefulness in it is Buddhism.Yeah, I was specifically talking about Christianity.
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Been slacking on this for a bit. Sorry 'bout that:
https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2021/03/22/day-62/
[h=1]Day 62: "A fork in the road."[/h]
! 1/ Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas defended Biden’s immigration strategy, saying “the border is closed. We are expelling families, we are expelling single adults and we have made a decision that we will not expel young, vulnerable children.” Nearly 100,000 migrants were detained at the border in February. Mayorkas, in part, blamed Trump for the record number of migrants seeking entry into the country from Mexico and Central America, saying “there was a system in place in both Republican and Democratic administrations that was torn down during the Trump administration, and that is why the challenge is more acute than it ever has been before.” In 2019, the Trump administration cut more than $500 million in aid to Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador in an effort to slow the migration to the U.S. White House officials will travel to Mexico and Guatemala this week for what administration officials described as “ongoing discussions on how to manage an effective and humane plan of action on migration.” (Washington Post / Wall Street Journal / ABC News / NPR / CNBC)
! *
Portrait of a President: Inside the Biden administration’s failure to contain the border surge. “The Biden administration is scrambling to control the biggest surge in 20 years, with the nation on pace for as many as 2 million migrants at the southern border this year — the outcome Biden said he wanted to avoid.” (Washington Post)
! 2/ More than 800 unaccompanied migrant children have been in Border Patrol custody for more than 10 days. The average time in custody is 130 hours, which exceeds the 72-hour legal limit. As of Saturday, Department of Health and Human Services was housing approximately 15,500 unaccompanied migrant minors, including more than 5,000 unaccompanied minors who are being held in a Customs and Border Protection tent holding facility not designed for long-term custody. (CNN / CBS News)
3/ The Biden administration secured hotel rooms to hold around 1,200 migrant families who cross the U.S.-Mexico border. The $86 million contract is for six months near border areas, including in Arizona and Texas. (Axios)
4/ Department of Homeland Security officials requested airplanes to transport migrants to states near the Canadian border for processing. Customs and Border Protection officials requested the air support from Immigration and Customs Enforcement after 1,000 members of families and unaccompanied minors crossed the Rio Grande on Friday. At the time, there were another 1,000 migrants that officials had been been unable to process. In recent days, CBP has used ICE planes to transport migrant families from the Rio Grande Valley, where facilities are overcapacity, to the El Paso area. (Washington Post)
5/ Border agents in the Rio Grande Valley were authorized to release adult migrants and families from custody before they have been given a date to appear in court. The move is “intended to mitigate operational challenges” by reducing the time immigrants spend in custody. Migrants are typically given a “notice to appear” before they are released or sent to Immigration and Customs Enforcement for detention. (NBC News)
6/ The U.S. seven-day average of daily new coronavirus cases is up at least 5% in 27 states. CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, meanwhile, said the U.S. could experience “another avoidable surge” as states lift restrictions too early, warning Americans to continue to wear masks, avoid crowds, and wait to travel, even if they’ve been vaccinated. Lifting restrictions is a “serious threat to the progress we have made,” Walensky said. “We are at a critical point in this pandemic, a fork in the road.” (CNBC / Bloomberg / Axios)
! * [h=4]
Dept. of “We’re gonna get through this.”[/h]- Global: Total confirmed cases: ~123,546,000; deaths: ~2,721,000
- U.S.: Total confirmed cases: ~29,856,000; deaths: ~543,000; fully vaccinated: ~12.8%; partially vaccinated: ~24.9%
- Source: Johns Hopkins University / Washington Post
- Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Club has been partially closed after some of its employees were infected with the coronavirus. Trump moved to Mar-a-Lago after leaving Washington in January. (Associated Press / Washington Post)
! 7/ AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine provided strong protection against Covid-19 in a large clinical trial. The AstraZeneca vaccine was 79% effective over all in preventing symptomatic infections, 80% effective in participants aged 65 and over, and 100% effective in preventing serious illness and hospitalization across ages and ethnicities. The company plans to apply for emergency use authorization from the FDA in the first half of April. If authorized, it would be the fourth Covid-19 vaccine available in the U.S. (Associated Press / New York Times / Wall Street Journal / CNN)
! *
Why J&J’s shots aren’t reaching more arms. (Politico)
! 8/ The Justice Department said evidence from the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol supports charges of seditious conspiracy against some defendants. Sedition is the crime of conspiring to overthrow the government. People who conspire to “oppose by force the authority” of the government or use force “to prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States” can be charged with sedition. “I personally believe the evidence is trending toward that, and probably meets those elements,” Michael Sherwin said, the federal prosecutor who had been leading the Justice Department’s inquiry. “I believe the facts do support those charges. And I think that, as we go forward, more facts will support that.” Sherwin also reiterated that prosecutors were examining Trump’s role in inciting the mob that marched to the Capitol. “It’s unequivocal that Trump was the magnet that brought the people to D.C. on the 6th. Now the question is, is he criminally culpable for everything that happened during the siege, during the breach?” Sherwin said. “We have people looking at everything.” Federal prosecutors, meanwhile, are preparing to start plea discussions with many of the more than 300 suspects charged in the riot. (New York Times / Washington Post)
9/ The House Oversight Committee held a hearing on legislation that the House passed last year to make Washington, D.C., the 51st state. Democrats argued that Washingtonians are treated as second-class citizens, performing the responsibilities of citizens but not receiving representation in Congress in return. Republicans, meanwhile, are uniformly opposed to the idea, claiming that the legislation violates the Constitution and accused Democrats of backing it in an attempt to improve their majorities in the House and the Senate. A new national poll finds that 54% of likely voters think D.C. should be a state, a record high level of support. (NBC News / New York Times / CBS News / Washington Post)
10/ The White House is considering a $3 trillion infrastructure and jobs package as part of Biden’s “Build Back Better” agenda. That effort is expected to be broken into two parts, rather than trying to push a single package through Congress. One plank would be focused on infrastructure, roads, bridges, and several climate change initiatives. The other would be centered on reducing economic inequities through investments in paid leave, universal pre-K, and community college, and extending the Child Tax Credit. Advisers are expected to present the proposal to Biden this week. (New York Times / Washington Post / CNBC)
11/ The Education Department canceled $1 billion in student loans for 72,000 students defrauded by for-profit schools. The move reversed a Trump administration policy that had provided only partial relief. Former Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos overruled department officials on student loan forgiveness in 2019, which Congress tried to overturn last March. Trump vetoed the measure. (Associated Press / Axios)
12/ Betsy DeVos earned at least $225 million in outside income while Trump’s education secretary. DeVos’s exact income is unclear because her income was reported in such wide ranges, with many assets being reported as “over $5 million” or “over $1 million.” (Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington / Forbes) -
So Marty Walsh is now the Labor Secretary:
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/22/975397099/marty-walsh-boston-mayor-with-union-roots-confirmed-as-labor-secretary-at-key-ti?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1uB9GdnW4BjUV17T6mLnBqeDHf8VG5TsSrpOePKZvEEqPoVMbOEc7kgCYStupid Dem presidents, first they steal our senators for their cabinets, now they steal our mayors! (Walsh is the mayor of Boston)
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pRo-LiFe
"Should it become law, a physician could refuse to treat a transgender person, a mental health professional could end treatment with a young teenager who just revealed to them he is gay, a pharmacist could refuse to dispense contraceptive medication even if prescribed for non-pregnancy-related illnesses, and a student nurse could refuse to assist with an abortion, even if it were medically necessary to save the life of a woman."
Hey, um, what about the Hippocratic oath? I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure some (if not all) of these spit right in the face of what's generally known as "being a healthcare worker". It spits in the face of being humane person as well, but that's beside the point.
Utterly despicable. They have the gall to use the word "conscience" like they have the faintest idea what that means. It's not even about religion anymore. It's about being a spineless, fear-mongering bastard who seems to be unable to live in a society with their fellow human beings.
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Hey, um, what about the Hippocratic oath? I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure some (if not all) of these spit right in the face of what's generally known as "being a healthcare worker". It spits in the face of being humane person as well, but that's beside the point.
Utterly despicable. They have the gall to use the word "conscience" like they have the faintest idea what that means. It's not even about religion anymore. It's about being a spineless, fear-mongering bastard who seems to be unable to live in a society with their fellow human beings.
Key word here is fellow, their idea of it is people of equal skin colour, similar social standing or above, similar income, same religious - ethnicity - gender - sexual orientation and political alignment.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So mass shouting in Boulder,CO.
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So mass shouting in Boulder,CO.
Business as usual: pointless senseless deaths and people either bullshitting about it or giving tone deaf reactions.
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The new shooter is from Syria. Let the cries of "Islamic terrorist" and "kill the brown people" begin.
Never mind that the guy has lived in the US most of his life.
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The new shooter is from Syria. Let the cries of "Islamic terrorist" and "kill the brown people" begin.
https://www.rawstory.com/right-wing-boulder-shooter-heritage/
It's almost like the Atlanta Mass Shootings didn't happen.
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The bear rhyme needs an update for mass shooters:
"if it's black shoot 'em in the back, if it's brown bomb 'em down, if it's white he had a bad night."
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https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2021/03/23/day-63/
[h=1]Day 63: "An American issue."[/h]
! 1/ Biden called on Congress to “immediately pass” legislation that would close loopholes in gun background checks and ban the purchase of assault weapons a day after the mass shooting at a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, which left 10 dead. “I don’t need to wait another minute, let alone an hour to take common sense steps that will save the lives in the future,” Biden said, adding that background checks “should not be a partisan issue — it is an American issue […] We have to act.” Earlier this month, the House passed a pair of bills aimed at strengthening the nation’s gun laws. One would expand background checks and the other would extend the waiting period for background checks to 10 days from three days. Both bills face opposition in the Senate, where they don’t not currently have the 60 votes needed to advance. (USA Today / NPR / New York Times / NBC News / Wall Street Journal / Bloomberg / CNBC / Washington Post)
! * The Boulder attack was the seventh mass shootings in the past week across the United States. On Tuesday, March 16, eight people, including six Asian women, were killed at three spas in Atlanta, Georgia; Five people were shot in a drive-by shooting in Stockton, California on March 17; Four people were taken to the hospital after a shooting outside of Portland, Oregon on March 18; Five people were shot inside a club in Houston, eight people were shot in Dallas, and one person was killed and five others injured during a shooting in Philadelphia on March 20. (CNN)
! 2/ A Colorado judge blocked Boulder’s ban on assault weapons 10 days ago – the gunman used an AR-15 rifle he purchased six days ago. In 2018, following the school shooting in Parkland, Florida, the city of Boulder passed an ordinance banning the possession, transfer or sale of assault weapons, and large-capacity magazines. But on March 12, Boulder County District Judge Andrew Hartman sided with the plaintiffs (the Colorado State Shooting Association and Boulder-based Gunsport of Colorado), ruling that a 2003 state law banned cities and counties from restricting guns that are otherwise legal under federal and state law. (Washington Post / Denver Post / Associated Press / New York Times)
3/ The second-largest teachers union is “not convinced” it’s safe to reduce social distancing in schools to three feet between students. Last week, the CDC updated its guidance for social distancing in schools to prevent the spread of Covid-19 from six feet to three feet. CDC Director Rochelle Walensky, citing studies of limited virus transmission from the WHO and the American Academy of Pediatrics, said the “updated recommendations provide the evidence-based roadmap to help schools reopen safely, and remain open, for in-person instruction.” Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers, however, said: “We are not convinced that the evidence supports changing physical distancing requirements at this time. Our concern is that the cited studies do not identify the baseline mitigation strategies needed to support 3 feet of physical distancing.” (CBS News)
4/ AstraZeneca’s recent Covid-19 vaccine trial results “may have included outdated information” that “provided an incomplete view of the efficacy” in its announcement touting its shot’s 79% effectiveness against the coronavirus, according to a statement by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. AstraZeneca unveiled its interim results on Monday without conducting the full analysis requested by the Data and Safety Monitoring Board. While the company announced its vaccine was 79% effective, the panel said it had seen data showing the vaccine may be 69 to 74% effective, and had “strongly recommended” that that information be included in the news release. “This is really what you call an unforced error,” Dr. Anthony Fauci said. “Because the fact is: This is very likely a very good vaccine, and this kind of thing does, as you say, do nothing but really cast some doubt about the vaccines and maybe contributes to the hesitancy.” (NBC News / Washington Post / New York Times / STAT News / Politico / ABC News)
! * [h=4] Dept. of “We’re gonna get through this.”[/h]- Global: Total confirmed cases: ~123,978,000; deaths: ~2,729,000
- U.S.: Total confirmed cases: ~29,907,000; deaths: ~544,000; fully vaccinated: ~13.0%; partially vaccinated: ~25.3%
- Source: Johns Hopkins University / Washington Post
- The Biden administration is not confident Johnson & Johnson will meet its deadline to deliver 20 million coronavirus vaccines by the end of March. Johnson & Johnson shipped four million doses at the end of February and an another 1.2 million doses since. (CNN)
! 5/ Postmaster General Louis DeJoy’s 10-year strategic plan for the U.S. Postal Service includes higher postage rates, slower services, and reduced post office hours. “Does it make a difference if it’s an extra day to get a letter?” DeJoy told the House Oversight and Reform Committee in February. “Because something has to change. We cannot keep doing the same thing we’re doing.” (NBC News / CNN / NPR / Washington Post)
6/ Lawyers for pro-Trump attorney Sidney Powell claimed that “no reasonable person” would believe that her false conspiracies about widespread election fraud were “statements of fact.” Powell also asked a federal court to dismiss a $1.3 billion defamation suit filed against her by Dominion Voting Systems over her conspiracy theories. (CNBC / CNN / Wall Street Journal / The Guardian)
7/ The Trump administration impeded at least nine key oversight investigations, and 11 inspectors general or their senior aides said hostility to oversight reached unprecedented levels during Trump’s time in office. (Washington Post) -
6/ Lawyers for pro-Trump attorney Sidney Powell claimed that “no reasonable person” would believe that her false conspiracies about widespread election fraud were “statements of fact.” Powell also asked a federal court to dismiss a $1.3 billion defamation suit filed against her by Dominion Voting Systems over her conspiracy theories. (CNBC / CNN / Wall Street Journal / The Guardian)
Using the sake excuse Fox News used to defend Tucker, no sane person would believe such garbage. Is this the 21th century twink defense?
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You're restricting it to the Abrahamic ones? Because the same applies to pretty much all of them, including condescending or proselytist atheists.
I think the safer to say that has zero hatefulness in it is Buddhism.Literally the day after I moved to Japan I encountered some sect/offshoot of Buddhists who tried recruiting me. After talking with them awhile their beliefs were very similar to our western religions. They were very adamant I could not visit any Shinto shrines or else demons or the like would attack me (which only made me want to visit them) and that their god, can't remember the name, was the one true god (couldn't pray to anything else). They also seemed to have some pope-like cult leader and invited me to go to an event to see him.
Seems all religions have their extremists types. Can't just settle for peace and harmony.
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