@S.C.:
If Shutenmaru is our next big candidate, I hope he has a unique style and isn't just another bog-standard swordsman. Like he has a Kusarigama, or something.
He might/should have an oni club.
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)
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Eh, fuck it.
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So what does this cover mean?
And what about the 7 or 8 covers where Law was given equal billing, or the one where Kinemon was equal to the Strawhats? Or the multiple covers that had a lot of minks on them?
You have to narrow the criteria to a really narrow window to escalate the one cover with Carrot.
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So what does this cover mean?
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/a/ad/Volume_86.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/326?cb=20170714013014And what about the 7 or 8 covers where Law was given equal billing, or the one where Kinemon was equal to the Strawhats? Or the multiple covers that had a lot of minks on them?
You have to narrow the criteria to a really narrow window to escalate the one cover with Carrot.
Well, having a narrow criteria is sort of the point, isn't it?
I've thought about Pudding and Law and other noteworthy characters while working on the list, but none of them fit into the criteria I stated. In Pudding's case, she's only with Sanji; Luffy's set apart on another plain with a bunch of other characters. She's never interacted with Luffy on more than a rudimentary level, and that's important.
For Law, he's been in covers with Luffy only, and in covers with both them and others like Smoker and the Supernovae. He's important, obvs, but a crewmate also has to stand equally with other members of the crew, not just toe to toe with Luffy. The only time that happened before was Sanji and Luffy way back on vol. 7.
If you want to get really strict about it, only Nami, Franky and Jinbe have been in covers with the crew before joining and without extraneous characters around them. It's not like I'm espousing hard and verifiable science here, but I do think the covers can and have pointed to who's important to the crew on a deeper level than just arc character of the year.
And hey, I did talk about Kin'emon and the other Minks, I don't know why you think I ignored them.
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I think it has to be Jinbei and Carrot. Jinbei is already sworn into the crew. Carrot is the fresh-faced female version of Luffy. Oda said something about the next memebers joining in quick succession so why not have two memebers who’ve literally been on the ship and whose intentions we already know. You might be wondering why it hasn’t happened yet then. Well Oda just said it himself, there has to be a story reason to allow people to join. Everyone except Zoro literally had an arc dedicated to highlighting their reasons but the New world doesn’t have time to focus on one person’s drama(Except Sanji’s apparently) so Oda is getting clever by making sure you see the progression of the new Strawhats’ convictions to join the crew in real time as the hectic New world story chugs along. We see Jinbei’s fight with Luffy at Fishman Island to his quitting his old crew in WCI. We see Carrot’s stowing away on the ship just to go to sea to Pedro’s dying words that give her cause to consider the Strawhats as something special. And when the time comes, Jinbei would’ve saved his old crew and completely been freed from his old responsibilities and Carrot would’ve grown out of her naivity about just sailing the world and decided sailing with the Strawhats to bring about this “Dawn” as Pedro said is a more noble goal. And like that, a confluence of stories will occur and two Strawhats will join in quick succession just like Oda said.
And of course there’s the obvious reasons. Jinbei is a veteran so he must be balanced out with Carrot as a rookie. Jinbei is an old man, Carrot is a young chick. Jinbei has Fishman Karate, Carrot has Electro. Jinbei is a good Helmsman, Carrot is a good look out. Jinbei is a stiff, Carrot is goofy almost to Luffy levels. They both have very good unique designs(ahem to sell lots of toys ahem). They are both pretty strong. They are of different races which is big deal in the new world story. And lastly they both have good dynamics with the crew.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Is the Volume 88 Cover the first cover in which the same character. Appears twice. Carrot in Sulong appears there again
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Is the Volume 88 Cover the first cover in which the same character. Appears twice. Carrot in Sulong appears there again
here, have some Luffy twice.
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It’s a One Piece next generations scenario.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So it’s Carrot and Luffy then... Anyway I don’t really care about the covers. I just think that Sulong form was top 3 best moments in the whole Arc... Sexy AF
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@S.C.:
If Shutenmaru is our next big candidate, I hope he has a unique style and isn't just another bog-standard swordsman. Like he has a Kusarigama, or something.
Or a ninja like Raizou
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I think we’re passed entire arcs dedicated to single characters. So Carrot has had her ordeals scattered throughout the story since Zou with her growing out of her naivety first from almost having her country destroyed and later from Pedro’s demiseSame way Jinbei has had his ordeals scattered through the story since Fishman Island with him letting go of his responsibilities to bet on Luffy instead, First letting go of his hero status in FI by letting Luffy be the hero and then in WCI quitting his old crew but having to stay to save their lives.
I don’t think they’ll ever be an Arlong Park or Water 7 style arc again where a primary conflict can actually just center around one person. Luffy is dealing with threats that mess with the entire fabric of the One Piece world and it’s highlighted in stuff like the “the year of Sanji”. Where Sanji was relegated to a pawn in his own arc and the only tangible connection he had was the Vinsmokes who themselves still got relegated to Mere pawns in the eyes of the Main Villain. So my point is, these new Strawhats can’t be written to have huge stakes in the stories anymore and the biggest attribute I can see that defines these new Crewmates is being able to bet on Luffy despite all the shit they’ve seen in this New World. Jinbei knows the inner workings of even the WG by having been a Warlord and knows the Yonkou having been under Momma but still picks Luffy to be the man who will triumph over all the monsters of the world. Carrot is completely naive of the world in the opposite spectrum from Jinbei and for her the terrors of the World are truly terrors in her eyes like when she actually attacked Katakuri after Pedro’s death to completely no avail and was physically reminded of what this New world has to offer. But even in this Chaos around her, she steps up for Strawhats spurred on by Pedro’s last words that the Strawhats might be worth betting on despite the tragedy that might befall her in this crazy world. I think these New crewmates being after the time skip are people who are strong and can recognize the new world as strong but bet on Luffy nonetheless since this is the home stretch and Oda is conveying their faith in the crew by stretching their character arcs over time.
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after jinbe
the Next Straw Hat marco -
Well, having a narrow criteria is sort of the point, isn't it?
No, because that's isolating and ignoring data in order to build evidence around a theory, instead of a theory around evidence.
And hey, I did talk about Kin'emon and the other Minks, I don't know why you think I ignored them.
Because you mention one instance of them while ignoring multiple others to downplay just how often other characters have gotten equal billing.
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I wrote Ninja High School for about 10 years and a bunch of stuff for Antarctic Press, like Pirates versus Ninjas and the Zombie Recognition Guide, and some how to draw related books, and did editorial on more things than I can even remember.
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Ah judging from the titles I'll assume the target demographic were kids? Is there any work you're particularly proud/fond of that you might like to recommend to check out?
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No, because that's isolating and ignoring data in order to build evidence around a theory, instead of a theory around evidence.
Because you mention one instance of them while ignoring multiple others to downplay just how often other characters have gotten equal billing.
I said Kin'emon was in the same boat as Carrot in having been shown in an equal way with Luffy and the crew. I said the same about Momo from the cover with the Minks, who were clearly set into the background, including Carrot who I didn't try to claim was the focus there. I gave them all credit, so where do you get the gall to accuse me of downplaying anything?
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I don't know if it specifically got mentioned in this thread but there's a 4 entry gap between Brook and Roger in the new Vivre Card Databook. I assume the 4 missing entries are for the Strawhat crew.
#1 Luffy
#2 Zoro
….
#9 Brook
#10 ????
#11 ????
#12 ????
#13 ????#14 Roger
#10 is of course Jinbe and he's been teased as such in the cover story.
My own personal theory is that #13 is the ship/klabautermann.
The ship has a giant #13 on it. And based on the early crew art there was a midget shipwright that looks suspiciously similar to the Klabautermann.
Now I know that there'll be some debate whether Going Merry AND Sunny will get their own numbers but I don't think this is the case. Didn't Franky state that the spirit of Merry lives on in Sunny? And although not canon, Episode of Merry spelled it out that Merry and Sunny are inhabited by the same entity. The anime does fact check somethings with Oda, so I don't really have any reason to not believe that the anime in this instance. I know some things have been revealed by the anime before confirmed in the manga or SBS, such as Charlotte Kato being a member of the Big Mom family and not a homie like most people were assuming. So it only makes sense for the Klabautermann, Merry, and Sunny to have one entry (as #13).
The leaves #11 and #12 for new crew members.
Someone else pointed this out to me once that the name for the crew in Japanese is Mugiwara no Ichimi which could also be some wordplay which Oda loves. Ichimi = Ichi, Mi or 1, 3. We've already seen Oda use wordplay with the Strawhat's devil fruit numbers as well as the name of the ship, so I don't really take it as a stretch if Oda's using some wordplay again.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Oh yeah and I think Carrot is one of the 2 new members after Jinbe.
People are only ardently opposed to her because they think there's only 1 member after Jinbe. If the crew ends up being completed by end of Wano arc like most people are predicting then Carrot will probably end up being one of the characters since she'll have been with us for so long.
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I said Kin'emon was in the same boat as Carrot in having been shown in an equal way with Luffy and the crew. I said the same about Momo from the cover with the Minks, who were clearly set into the background, including Carrot who I didn't try to claim was the focus there. I gave them all credit, so where do you get the gall to accuse me of downplaying anything?
Because when you listed volume covers you skipped a whole bunch of them, downplaying the number of times various characters showed up, Law in particular, while using a very particular criteria to discredit other characters that have shown up a bunch of times, (Even Bege has been on like 4 different covers.) while emphasizing the one cover with Carrot as special, even though aside from that one cover, she has consistently also been with Pedro, Pekoms, Wanda, Sanji's sister, etc.
In particular
Whether Carrot is joining or not, she has clearly been placed among the upper echelons of such important characters by Oda himself. Pudding simply can’t compare.
Even though Pudding has appeared on the cover absolutely sharing main spotlight with Sanji on cover 86, but you don't list that because… she's not in the same row as Luffy? Because Sanji is the only other strawhat there? I'm not supporting Pudding in the least, but on that cover she was featured just as prominently as any other major character, with a strawhat and has been in a couple pieces since. It might also be significant that Pudding was NOT in the various Big Mom underlings covers.
And that's just one example. Then there's the volume 89 cover, it's just Luffy and Katakuri, and I can't think of any other time where it's JUST been Luffy vs one guy with absolutely no other characters in the cover. That's a first I think. (I could be wrong, but its the only one I can think of.) Surely that makes Katakuri important, unique and upper echelon in importance? He even appeared on that cover twice, which is one of the big deals being made about the 88 cover.
What about going all the way back to the volume 5 cover, where it four strawhats and the Usopp pirates? They were behind them but they were all in the same plane being given prominence. What about volume 15 whee it's Luffy, Usopp and the Giants all given the same priority while the villains are faded behind them? What about 19 where Luffy, Usopp and Pell are in the same space, and Koza behind them?
Etc. etc. every couple volumes from the start to present.
If you're going to do "covers/color spreads with only strawhats" that's fine, so you can point to some of the early volumes, to the Alabasta vs. spread, the one spread with Franky a year before he joined, or the Jinbe in the 10 vs 10,000 cover, but there's only been a very small handful of those as actual volume covers.
"Characters that had equal cover billing with Luffy/a strawhat" would be a much more informative data point than "covers that have strawhats prominently and one guest in a single row" for showcasing who Oda has deemed important. Even with that criteria just a casual glance at my volumes shows you've missed several.
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Now I know that there'll be some debate whether Going Merry AND Sunny will get their own numbers but I don't think this is the case. Didn't Franky state that the spirit of Merry lives on in Sunny? And although not canon, Episode of Merry spelled it out that Merry and Sunny are inhabited by the same entity. The anime does fact check somethings with Oda, so I don't really have any reason to not believe that the anime in this instance. I know some things have been revealed by the anime before confirmed in the manga or SBS, such as Charlotte Kato being a member of the Big Mom family and not a homie like most people were assuming. So it only makes sense for the Klabautermann, Merry, and Sunny to have one entry (as #13).
I don't know about this Episode of Merry, but I understand that Franky said that the Sunny inhiritted Merry's will. You see, "inhiritted will", this manga's main theme.
Franky's speech in this translation: https://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/439/11
In my opinion, it would take away a lot of Sunny's own identity if he was just the reincarnation of Merry… also, the whole idea that a ship dies if its "spine" is destroyed would be meaningless. Merry died... but his will was passed on to the next ship.
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I don't know about this Episode of Merry, but I understand that Franky said that the Sunny inhiritted Merry's will. You see, "inhiritted will", this manga's main theme.
Franky's speech in this translation: https://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/439/11
In my opinion, it would take away a lot of Sunny's own identity if he was just the reincarnation of Merry… also, the whole idea that a ship dies if its "spine" is destroyed would be meaningless. Merry died... but his will was passed on to the next ship.
Going off the VIZ translation it says "But that ship's brave soul… ...will be carried on by the Thousand Sunny!"
But there's also the other 2 points I brought up. 1) Episode of Merry spelling out that the spirit that possesses the Merry and Sunny are the same entity and 2) the early concept art shows the proto-Klabautermann as a member of the crew which gives us some insights toward how Oda's views the ship/spirit.
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Going off the VIZ translation it says "But that ship's brave soul… ...will be carried on by the Thousand Sunny!"
But there's also the other 2 points I brought up. 1) Episode of Merry spelling out that the spirit that possesses the Merry and Sunny are the same entity and 2) the early concept art shows the proto-Klabautermann as a member of the crew which gives us some insights toward how Oda's views the ship/spirit.
I'd really like to see a comment about the original phrase in japanese, because it's possible the phrase is ambiguos for translation.
About the other points, (1) I won't really take the Episode of Merry as canon because we can never be sure, and (2) we don't know what was Oda's planning for the series when he conceptualized that proto-Klabautermann. For instance, I've read once in an interview that Oda didn't think Merry would become this important ship in the story. We should remember that One Piece was not planned to become this gigantic story, so maybe Merry would be just a temporary ship.
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The problem is, you don't acknowledge when people have legitimate criticism with your theories. You can vouch for who you like, and you can argue against whomever you think won't fit. But you can't just stick your fingers in your ears and ignore rebuttals from those who disagree you, while still keeping on with the same "official" rankings as if no one said anything. And to complain about folks "refusing to back down" when that's really what you are doing, refusing to acknowledge anyone's arguments for characters you consider to be "not even in the running".
I point out how Oda chose to portray two characters, you respond with what amounts to mudslinging. I want to hear legitimate thoughts on why you think what I presented doesn't hurt Pudding's chances. I don't want pictures of pudding cups and carrot dishes without rhyme or reason to become the norm here. That's not conducive to real discussion, which is something I do take seriously, thank you very much.
And if you're tired of this kind of talk, why in the world are you still talking in here?
I have literally posted before on stuff preventing Pudding from joining the crew, listing stuff for and against her and considering other potential routes for her character's role. Just because I've degraded to funposting (and I'm sure users who've read like any 3 of my posts know not to take me seriously at all) doesn't cancel that out. She's a character I like regardless of whether she joins, and while I want her to join and feel she is better suited for it than other "candidates", I don't quite expect her to. I don't bother arguing your points because you've made it clear in these threads you refuse to acknowledge other people's valid counterpoints, cherrypick, and make a massive deal about it when other people disagree. I'd rather just have this be a fun thread, but you do you.
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It really all just goes to Pudding defeating Carrot in uniqueness match.
As also, leaving Big Mom aside, Pudding is literally the most relevant character of the Big Mom Pirates, and the only one who's existence goes beyond local plotlines, having all Cracker, Snack, Katakuri and Perospero with their strength and bounties being the only things going for them, while Pudding's native tribe is a mystery by itself, Brook had a strange reaction to realizing she was a third-eye, and the well known much more mysterious ability behind it.
plus the fact, she was introduced a long ago.
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Pudding also should have had more of an all-purpose psychic power DF.
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@S.C.:
Pudding also should have had more of an all-purpose psychic power DF.
that would probably come from her third eye, what´s intriging its the result of her third-eye ability combined with her DF.
for example, there´s a giant straw hat in Mariejois, to picture Pudding capable of getting memories out of an object, well, that´s nothing a SH member can do, as for now.
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It really all just goes to Pudding defeating Carrot in uniqueness match.
Except, again, Pudding's defining trait's ability very clearly infringe upon Robin's territory, so it's a moot point. Not to mention her profession.
As also, leaving Big Mom aside, Pudding is literally the most relevant character of the Big Mom Pirates, and the only one who's existence goes beyond local plotlines, having all Cracker, Snack, Katakuri and Perospero with their strength and bounties being the only things going for them, while Pudding's native tribe is a mystery by itself, Brook had a strange reaction to realizing she was a third-eye, and the well known much more mysterious ability behind it.
plus the fact, she was introduced a long ago.
No one said she has no relevancy, tons of characters do, so I'm not really understanding your point here.
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Because when you listed volume covers you skipped a whole bunch of them, downplaying the number of times various characters showed up, Law in particular, while using a very particular criteria to discredit other characters that have shown up a bunch of times, (Even Bege has been on like 4 different covers.) while emphasizing the one cover with Carrot as special, even though aside from that one cover, she has consistently also been with Pedro, Pekoms, Wanda, Sanji's sister, etc.
In particular
Even though Pudding has appeared on the cover absolutely sharing main spotlight with Sanji on cover 86, but you don't list that because… she's not in the same row as Luffy? Because Sanji is the only other strawhat there? I'm not supporting Pudding in the least, but on that cover she was featured just as prominently as any other major character, with a strawhat and has been in a couple pieces since. It might also be significant that Pudding was NOT in the various Big Mom underlings covers.
And that's just one example. Then there's the volume 89 cover, it's just Luffy and Katakuri, and I can't think of any other time where it's JUST been Luffy vs one guy with absolutely no other characters in the cover. That's a first I think. (I could be wrong, but its the only one I can think of.) Surely that makes Katakuri important, unique and upper echelon in importance? He even appeared on that cover twice, which is one of the big deals being made about the 88 cover.
What about going all the way back to the volume 5 cover, where it four strawhats and the Usopp pirates? They were behind them but they were all in the same plane being given prominence. What about volume 15 whee it's Luffy, Usopp and the Giants all given the same priority while the villains are faded behind them? What about 19 where Luffy, Usopp and Pell are in the same space, and Koza behind them?
Etc. etc. every couple volumes from the start to present.
If you're going to do "covers/color spreads with only strawhats" that's fine, so you can point to some of the early volumes, to the Alabasta vs. spread, the one spread with Franky a year before he joined, or the Jinbe in the 10 vs 10,000 cover, but there's only been a very small handful of those as actual volume covers.
"Characters that had equal cover billing with Luffy/a strawhat" would be a much more informative data point than "covers that have strawhats prominently and one guest in a single row" for showcasing who Oda has deemed important. Even with that criteria just a casual glance at my volumes shows you've missed several.
Why did I use the criteria of Luffy + 1 SH + 1 Other + Same Plain of Existence? It came from trying to boil down the elements of vol. 88, since that’s the volume in question and all. You ask why I didn’t compare it to 5 and 15? Because they showcase more than one character the same way: 5 has everyone together in the same real place, while 15 has two giants, not one.
I was trying to examine what other covers fit the theme 88 set, that of Luffy, members of his crew, and one other person without sidekicks and animal partners getting in the way, or at least set back a ways. Luffy by himself with one person most likely wouldn’t work to show them as a possible crewmate, because the crewmate has to get along with the rest of the crew. Same with having a crew member with one other person but no Luffy, because they’d have to get along with Luffy in particular. Having a lot of characters all together doesn’t let any one person stand out, unless it’s through something like color or a line clearly drawing them into the background.
To try and show you what I mean, I’ll take time to go through the list of every cover Pudding and Law appear in and examine how they’re placed among the other characters. Pudding first:
86: Pudding and Sanji in front, Luffy, CC, Bege and others in the background
88: Pudding in the yellow background with Bege, Chiffon and S.Carrot against the moonIn 86, she has her moment with Sanji, but Luffy’s not a part of it: he’s hamming it up with CC and Bege. If I was going to believe she had a chance of joining, I’d need to see her as one of Luffy’s real friends, more than just the friend of a friend. And in 88, she’s been shunted to the back and placed in monochrome. She has her role to play, but it’s not front and center with the SHs, and it’ll be a long time for that to possibly change.
Now for Law:
51: Law with the other 11 Supernovae
68: Law, Luffy and Smoker with CC surrounding them
69: Law in the BG, Luffy in the front with Mocha, Smoker, Zoro, etc. spread throughout
70: Law and Luffy in front, B5, Buffalo, N/U/F, Doffy, etc. in the BG
73: Law fighting Doflamingo, N/S/Ch/B with CC and Momo looking on, Luffy and King Riku in the BG
75: Law, Luffy, Zoro and Kyros in front, Sabo, Koala, Pica and Fujitora in the BG
76: Law and Luffy in full color, various characters including Cavendish, Zoro, Barto, Usopp, etc. in mono rainbow colors
78: Law, L/Z/U/R/F and all the Tontattas in one plain, various gladiators in the middle band51 and 69 have Law and Luffy in a big group shot.
68 and 75 has Luffy, Law, and one equally important non-SH character right beside them.
70 and 76 has Law and Luffy side by side set apart from everyone else.
73 has Law as the clear focus; Sanji and the others are mere onlookers.
78 is the only cover where Law seems to have equal standing with the other SHs, and he shares that with the Tontattas.In nearly all of those cases, Law is set apart; he’s a co-leader, not a follower. He’s Luffy’s equal, not his subordinate. He sorta has the opposite problem of Pudding’s portrayals: he’s too important, stands out ahead of the pack too much. What other SH besides Zoro stands a chance against him? It's the same issue with Luffy and Katakuri on 89.
Would you consider it biased if I examine the covers Carrot appears in as well? Since she's a part of this, too.
81: Carrot and multiple minks in the BG
82: Carrot, Pekoms, Pedro, L/N/Ch/B leaping off together, Vivi in the BG
85: Carrot, Pedro, L/N/Ch/B/J in battle formation together with Reiju in the front
88: Carrot, N/S/Ch/B/J in colored glass centered on LuffyIn every cover after 81, she’s an active part of the group, not separate, not standing alone or just with Luffy. That’s why I liked 64’s cover way back when, because Jinbe was finally a part of the core group and not just shown as the strong ally from the war, no longer someone larger than life that only Luffy could match.
I have literally posted before on stuff preventing Pudding from joining the crew, listing stuff for and against her and considering other potential routes for her character's role. Just because I've degraded to funposting (and I'm sure users who've read like any 3 of my posts know not to take me seriously at all) doesn't cancel that out. She's a character I like regardless of whether she joins, and while I want her to join and feel she is better suited for it than other "candidates", I don't quite expect her to. I don't bother arguing your points because you've made it clear in these threads you refuse to acknowledge other people's valid counterpoints, cherrypick, and make a massive deal about it when other people disagree. I'd rather just have this be a fun thread, but you do you.
By all means, show me where I’ve cherrypicked, or ignored your counterpoint or someone else’s. Personally, I feel I’ve made it a point not to skip any part of a reply to me, but do tell me where I’ve missed something. I’ll gladly admit when I’ve been mistaken or out of line, but you gotta do your part and demonstrate where that’s happened, rather than venting that I’m always like that.
And by all means, you do you as well, have fun. Just don’t spam.
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I can't believe people are still trying to rationalize Pudding as being a viable SH candidate. She's just like Hancock, Sugar, Perona, Viola, and Bonney. Someone with a DF so hax, it would never be viable in a fight. Think about any of them in a one on one fight for a second . Besides MAYBE Viola, all of them can use their DF power and defeat an enemy in one shot. Hell, Perona could probably defeat Kaido if she wanted.
That's how you know none of them were ever viable SHs. Even Robin with as broken a DF as she has couldn't easily do that. In the future, if you ever see another female candidate with a fruit like theirs, save yourself the trouble and look at someone else.
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I can't believe people are still trying to rationalize Pudding as being a viable SH candidate. She's just like Hancock, Sugar, Perona, Viola, and Bonney. Someone with a DF so hax, it would never be viable in a fight. Think about any of them in a one on one fight for a second . Besides MAYBE Viola, all of them can use their DF power and defeat an enemy in one shot. Hell, Perona could probably defeat Kaido if she wanted.
That's how you know none of them were ever viable SHs. Even Robin with as broken a DF as she has couldn't easily do that. In the future, if you ever see another female candidate with a fruit like theirs, save yourself the trouble and look at someone else.
To be fair, I think our current debate is more about whether vol. 88 has anything to do with anything more than the chances of any one character.
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Sugar is definitely the strongest character in One Piece.
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To be fair, I think our current debate is more about whether vol. 88 has anything to do with anything more than the chances of any one character.
The five post above yours were speaking to Pudding's viability, uniqueness, and potential skills. That vol. 88 debate is mostly between you and Robby. I'm not gonna touch that one. Lol
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The five post above yours were speaking to Pudding's viability, uniqueness, and potential skills. That vol. 88 debate is mostly between you and Robby. I'm not gonna touch that one. Lol
Yep, you've got a point there. XD
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Sugar is definitely the strongest character in One Piece.
Usopp beat her.
Twice.
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Usopp beat her.
Twice.
People don't call him God for nothing.
He beat Perona too. Both of whom could take down an emperor if they wanted. Kaido and Big Mom are lucky to have that plot armor magic. Wait, does that make Usopp the strongest SH? On second thought, nvm. No point in going OT. :ninja:
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I posted sth about Carrot in the databook-thread before, but it rather belongs to this thread:
http://www.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=49887&page=18&p=3928078&viewfull=1#post3928078
to put it simple, it just says, that Oda could use his "Food-logic" to establish Carrot as a supreme lookout/Scout (but still inferior to Violet).
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Except, again, Pudding's defining trait's ability very clearly infringe upon Robin's territory, so it's a moot point. Not to mention her profession.
.based on the little amount of info we got, it appears that, yes, it does messes around with Robin, tho I have to mention, we dont know what it is that she awakens along with her third eye and how it works, given that Big Mom only wants said ability for her benefit, while it could be a much bigger thing.
as for Sanji that's fair enough.still, in Carrot's case, Jumping(Sanji), Electricity(Nami), large-view(Usopp) and Transformation(Chopper), what makes her entire character is all already within the crew, that just kills any possibility of even being considered for a spot in the Sunny.
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still, in Carrot's case, Jumping(Sanji), Electricity(Nami), large-view(Usopp) and Transformation(Chopper), what makes her entire character is all already within the crew, that just kills any possibility of even being considered for a spot in the Sunny.
Couldn't the same thing be said for Brook, between his high jumping (Sanji), swordsmanship (Zoro), and musical skills (Franky)? Or Jinbei, between his hand-to-hand combat (Luffy) and communication with animals (Chopper)? This far into the series, there's going to be some overlap.
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@ Monquito
it's good you brought up Usoppe.
I am not saying "Carrot will definetely join". My Point was just, IF Oda picks Carrot as a nakama, it'd be likely, that he applies this Kind of "Food-myth-logic" to make her look like a good choice for a lookout.
At the tarai-current, (almost) no one (seriously)expected Jinbe to be a good helmsman.And I also understand the fans who think 7 SHs would be enough even though they love Franky and Brook.
Oda's Need to split up the Crew frequently became pretty obvious recently. -
Why did I use the criteria of Luffy + 1 SH + 1 Other + Same Plain of Existence? It came from trying to boil down the elements of vol. 88, since that’s the volume in question and all. You ask why I didn’t compare it to 5 and 15? Because they showcase more than one character the same way: 5 has everyone together in the same real place, while 15 has two giants, not one.
Yeah, sorry, I don't agree, it just seems like you're making up a pattern and creating a formula/theory that supports your stance by omitting anything else that would get in your way. I'm sure we could go through every cover in the series and get similar discussion and reason for you leaving it out, I stopped looking after I saw multiple examples within the first few volumes, and saw that the cover immediately following 88 also had the same character on it twice. That's less Oda doing a deliberate hint and more Oda playing with a new technique.
Is Carrot important? Obviously. Is Carrot one of the top tier most upper echelon elevated in importance characters in the series based on one cover? I'm not getting that. No more than Pudding or Katakuri have been given major emphasis.
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Always remember, this cover, with the most important goat and miner of all times:
3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837
SW-4128-8032-0729
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Also the camel that has equal billing with the crew.
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Huh… and? My argument was never that Carrot could not have another outcome for her character arc, as I'm saying since my first post in this thread. My argument is that becoming a Strawhats fits (just like other options, and better than many), and I told you before because you said that it would be pointless for her to get onboard the Sunny because she wouldn't have enough adventures. However, as you recognized later, becoming a Strawhat is to embark into the biggest adventure there is.
I didn't say useless, more like unsatisfactory. From what I understood, much like Pedro, I saw Carrot's dream to be more of an explorer. Pedro was just labelled as a pirate. Seeing the world, maybe dig in like an archaeologist, but this path includes many different places. If Carrot's dreams is to have adventures then obviously the quantity does not matter. I just understood her dream to have a bigger focus on the quantity of places to visit. Which, with the Straw Hats closing in on the final island, seems to cut it short.
And this sort of dream needs to be complete around the finale, because all of the Straw Hats dreams will be realized by then.
What matters is whether Oda created Carrot to become a Strawhat or not, which neither you or I know at the moment…
Luffy's first impression of the mink-race is not Oda whispering in our ears that no mink will join, because that comment was in-character with Luffy's perception.
But that was not the argument at all to begin with. The argument is that Chopper and Carrot share design traits. To which the evidence portrayed for that is Luffy's comment, which was not used as a gag. We are not arguing: Luffy's comment means that Carrot/Mink will not join.
And towards that argument, it is undeniably true. We can talk about the spectrum of design for days. But to the target audience, and most adults, that matters little to none. Put a picture of the Minks and Chopper besides them in Horn Point. No one would even doubt that Chopper belongs to the Mink tribe.
And to reiterate. This is not an argument for or against Carrot joining. It is an argument for the similarities of Chopper and the entire Mink tribe share. Not to mention that both of them transform.
Hell, Luffy would probably be happy to welcome Carrot as his crewmate… but it's Oda who decides if she will join or not based on his criteria that we can never be sure to understand completely (and that's why we talk about narrative, character arc, design and stuff).
I am sure he wouldn't mind neither, I like to imagine Carrot turning down an invitation.
When it comes to what the author speaks through its work, you can't compare one random comment by Luffy about minks with something so well established throughout many arcs as Oda's views on women.
To use your words: We cannot because you do not want to. I can absolutely compare them because this is not chapter one of One Piece. This was over the 800 chapter mark. I have enough data to understand how Oda expresses his view on different matters and especially on how Luffy acts and has been brought to life.
The reason why I do not compare them to gags, is because a gag has a primary motive. The gag needs to work in character, which is why Luffy's gag is mainly to misunderstand. However, as I also showed, Luffy cutting down the details has brought upon one of the most impactful moments this show has had.
When Luffy says a random line about the Minks which was not used for the comedic purposes other comparisons/confusions have been used before. We do not need to derive three planes of meaning of what he is trying to say. Much less think that this line shows the potential or not of someone joining the crew. What it shows, is that Oda as an author told its viewers to see the Minks as other Choppers, so it is easier to understand, and there are less questions to be asked about them.
Or, he makes that comparison, and because we know that Chopper is an animal that ate a devil fruit. What does that make the Minks? Are they like the Fishmen, are they descendants from the first users of the human human fruit. A lot of interesting thoughts can be brought upon that comment.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I decided to do a bit of research on the subject. And now, here is every volume cover that features Luffy together with at least one other crewmate and only one other character on the same plain of existence, IE not just in the foreground or background.
*Vol. 78 is the exception, as I’ll explain below.1: L/Z with Nami
3: L/Z
6: L/Z/N/U
9: L/Z/N/U/S
11: L/Z/N/U/S
12: L/Z/N/U/S
17: L/Z/Ch with Wapol and his men in the BG, the same volume Chopper joined
23: L/Z/N/U/S/Ch in the BG with Vivi, the same volume she stayed behind
26: L/Z/N/U/S/Ch/R
28: L/Z/Ch/R in the BG, with Wyper and his warriors on a separate plain in the foreground
32 L/Z/N/U/S/Ch/R
39: L/Z with Franky and with Robin and other characters in the BG
43: L/Z/N/U/S/Ch with Franky
46: L/N/Ch with Brook and with the zombie horde in the BG
50: L/Z/N with Brook, the same volume he joined
52: L/Z/N/U/S/Ch/R/F/B with Rayleigh, the same volume everyone was separated
61: L/Z/N/U/S/Ch/R/F/B
64: L/Z/N/U/S/Ch/R/F/B with Jinbe
71: L/Z/S/F with Kin’emon and with multiple characters in the BG
78: L/Z/U/R/F with seemingly only Law, yet also with the Tontattas in the same plain
81: L/N/S/Ch/B with Momo and with multiple Minks in the BG
88: L/N/S/Ch/B/J with Carrot in the same plain and with Sulong Carrot, Pudding, Bege and Chiffon in the BGOut of that list, the only singular not-yet-SHs who have been portrayed together with Luffy and other crewmates are Nami, Vivi, Franky, Brook, Jinbe, Rayleigh, Kin’emon, Momo and Carrot.
Of those, Nami, Franky and Brook have joined, Jinbe has pledged to, and Vivi is a crewmate in spirit. Meanwhile, Rayleigh is now one of the closest people to Luffy as his mentor, and Momo and Kin’emon remain vital to the current arc. Whether Carrot is joining or not, she has clearly been placed among the upper echelons of such important characters by Oda himself. Pudding simply can’t compare.
I don't know, I find this research to be misinterpreted because of the angle, the constraints your putting on it.
We can derive thousands of different meanings if we go asking for those questions. I think primarily, what needs to be answered is: What is the purpose of a volume cover?
To me is to summarize the events that transpire in that volume. I cannot really advance past that point without muddling my vision with bias. As much as I like to say that the cover is a confirmation of Jimbe joining the crew. That is merely my desire put upon it. At the end of the day, Jimbe was the only ally combatant and part of the 10 vs 10000. After Fishman Island ends and he is invited to the crew, we go back and say: see? This was proof. But it really was not.
Because then, we would need to add the descriptor to the volume cover as: Does Oda hide/hint at events through his covers? Which then gets weird, because if yes, when does it apply, to all of them? Some selected few? Why those?
I prefer simplicity, so I'd rather say that covers summarize events in the volume, rather than put it as evidence on future events that will occur in the story.
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Not related to Shuten, but speaking of crossdressing it still seems like a popular theory on Japanese discussion sites that Kiku is a man. Though I'm not fluent enough to tell through text whether they're serious or meme'ing.
It's not necessarily crossdressing, is it? Something like a cape with a hood to obscure one's face would be unisex, I would think, and a practical piece of apparel for a bandit. Do we know any details about Shuten's appearance that would concretely make it a masculine figure?
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It's not necessarily crossdressing, is it? Something like a cape with a hood to obscure one's face would be unisex, I would think, and a practical piece of apparel for a bandit. Do we know any details about Shuten's appearance that would concretely make it a masculine figure?
His name; "maru" is a suffix for male names in Japan, like Konohamaru in Naruto. (though I don't know how consistent it is)
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His name; "maru" is a suffix for male names in Japan, like Konohamaru in Naruto. (though I don't know how consistent it is)
Is that their real name or just what they're being called (i.e. Robin Hood rather than Robin of Loxley or whatever), and if the former, is that what they want people to think their name is and it's just a cover? We don't know yet. Yes, this is out of personal preference that the new nakama candidate be a female and it's just the first step because we have to see if they are indeed badass enough regardless of their sex and gender identity, but it still can't necessarily yet be ruled out. I already pointed out how being in disguise and having a dual identity, especially one where it's the opposite sex, would be the perfect cover for someone who operates as a notorious bandit.
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Do we know any details about Shuten's appearance that would concretely make it a masculine figure?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/SekienShuten-doji.jpg
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based on the little amount of info we got, it appears that, yes, it does messes around with Robin, tho I have to mention, we dont know what it is that she awakens along with her third eye and how it works, given that Big Mom only wants said ability for her benefit, while it could be a much bigger thing.
as for Sanji that's fair enough.still, in Carrot's case, Jumping(Sanji), Electricity(Nami), large-view(Usopp) and Transformation(Chopper), what makes her entire character is all already within the crew, that just kills any possibility of even being considered for a spot in the Sunny.
But those are combat-related similarities, some of which you're being a tad disingenous about, and that kind of overlap is something Oda is no stranger to. One can debate all day about how those similarities affects Carrot's chances in general, that's fine. But the fact remains that Pudding's coveted 3rd eye ability allows her to fulfill the extremely important niche that Robin already has, her whole bread and butter. If the main argument is that Carrot cannot join because she'd be redundant, then Pudding has even less of a leg to stand on. You say we've been given little info about what her 3rd eye can do, yet Oda through Big Mom clearly stresses that this is the only ability that matters. If you have to make up or assume she has other abilities to begin with to help her case, doesn't that say it all? We already have someone who reads Poneglyphs, and we already have a chef, so this notion that Pudding was ever a decent candidate since we've learned those details is one that escapes me. Like Law for example is unique as hell, but there was no point in ever considering him for even a moment despite all the boxes he checked because the crew already has a doctor. Pudding was in the same boat (now it doesn't even matter because she was left behind anyhow), but with even less boxes checked. The only thing left remaining is her Devil Fruit, but again, you would have to make assumptions on how that could utilized for combat, or that she can fight at all to begin with.
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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/SekienShuten-doji.jpg
I meant, the OP version of the character, but…ugh, that was ugly. Even better cover for someone if they are portraying a character who is supposed to look like that, when they really don't underneath. Plus aren't ninjas supposed to be good at disguising and shapeshifting?
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But those are combat-related similarities, some of which you're being a tad disingenous about, and that kind of overlap is something Oda is no stranger to. One can debate all day about how those similarities affects Carrot's chances in general, that's fine. But the fact remains that Pudding's coveted 3rd eye ability allows her to fulfill the extremely important niche that Robin already has, her whole bread and butter. If the main argument is that Carrot cannot join because she'd be redundant, then Pudding has even less of a leg to stand on. You say we've been given little info about what her 3rd eye can do, yet Oda through Big Mom clearly stresses that this is the only ability that matters. If you have to make up or assume she has other abilities to begin with to help her case, doesn't that say it all? We already have someone who reads Poneglyphs, and we already have a chef, so this notion that Pudding was ever a decent candidate since we've learned those details is one that escapes me. Like Law for example is unique as hell, but there was no point in ever considering him for even a moment despite all the boxes he checked because the crew already has a doctor. Pudding was in the same boat (now it doesn't even matter because she was left behind anyhow), but with even less boxes checked. The only thing left remaining is her Devil Fruit, but again, you would have to make assumptions on how that could utilized for combat, or that she can fight at all to begin with.
not extra abilities. I mean if Pudding can get info out of objects, then she's not solely trapped with the Poneghlyps, as I said, Ym is hiding a giant straw hat in Mariejois, said thing could probably tell a greater story than all poneglyphs and Pudding would be the only one capable of listening.
also, the third-eye people, if there's an entire tribe capable of getting info out of Poneglyphs, thats just makes them instant enemies of the WG, and rises all kinds of questions about it.
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not extra abilities. I mean if Pudding can get info out of objects, then she's not solely trapped with the Poneghlyps, as I said, Ym is hiding a giant straw hat in Mariejois, said thing could probably tell a greater story than all poneglyphs and Pudding would be the only one capable of listening.
also, the third-eye people, if there's an entire tribe capable of getting info out of Poneglyphs, thats just makes them instant enemies of the WG, and rises all kinds of questions about it.
Isn't it weird, then, that Big Mom bonked a 3-eyed guy and then, knowing full well their offspring would have a third eye, singled her out for abuse for being 'ugly' in that way? Did she have her ex-husband put a bag over his head so she wouldn't have to look at him or something? It's just odd if she ought to have known ahead of time Pudding would inherit a hard-to-ignore trait from her pop.
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Isn't it weird, then, that Big Mom bonked a 3-eyed guy and then, knowing full well their offspring would have a third eye, singled her out for abuse for being 'ugly' in that way? Did she have her ex-husband put a bag over his head so she wouldn't have to look at him or something? It's just odd if she ought to have known ahead of time Pudding would inherit a hard-to-ignore trait from her pop.
yeah thats super weird, been wondering what happened to her father, most likely he's dead I believe.
and yeh, Pudding apparently shows no interest in said ability, but neither does Sanji to the Raid Suit and we know both things will come along at some point. -
It could be as easy as the father covering his eye, getting kicked out, then when Pudding is born they realize the father's true origins.
