For YOU maybe, LOL. Even Hancock turned that one around, so who knows. I wonder what if any DF power she might have. Besides, are we crediting any of Big Mom's family having an overabundance of intelligence or filters on their mouths or behaviors?
Honestly, if I had one little wish, there would have been something about Luffy questioning Katakuri's motives and ambitions (in comparison to his own), and really making him confront what kind of leader he would be for the family in the future, something he probably didn't really think about much being such an enforcer and not a leader. Now that Kata threw away all that pride and family respect crap, that would probably really shake him and give Luffy much more of an edge in terms of 'I need to win this fight, and I will because I want it more'.
A tad harsh on that last bit. Only things like the Lucci fight really ended with an asspull, but Luffy wasn't on the receiving end of nearly all the ass-kicking during that fight. With this one, Oda not putting in little things like, "Oh, Luffy's been munching on mochi the entire time, using that to curb the damage and restore his energy throughout, ergo him being able to take all that damage without just completely succumbing," was really asking a lot and I'd prefer not to go with this excessive approach in the future. Hopefully Oda gets some feedback on that if a significant amount of the fanbase is of that mind and will take heed.
This is it in a nutshell. I could have sworn even before grabbing Brulee and jumping out of the mirror for a breather, Luffy had gone G4 and called it off before he lost the ability to move, so him later on stating that it was strong enough to beat Kata made no sense (assuming I'm not mistaking it for G3) since if it was indeed as strong as that, no amount of size or blocking on Kata's part should have made a difference. Now, Kata having never faced an opponent of that magnitude before and allowing Luffy to recover so he could go G4 again after having run out of time would have been a really awesome turnaround even if Luffy had been getting bitch-slapped around in base form and G2 and G3. They could have had one of those meaningful conversations while Luffy's laying there, promising to kick his ass once he was able to stand up and use Haki again. But there was no balance here and while I can theorize that Kata never having a worthy opponent and not being used to taking punishing levels of damage made him a bit soft in terms of how much of it he could take before going down, that still doesn't cover why Luffy was able to keep going the entire time.
I dont think he threw away his respect for his family but just the image they made for him
Chapter 896: The Last Request
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I liked the post fight scene. The guy with Future Sight complimenting the guy who cant about how hes looking into the future. Katakuri falling on his back which signals he truly is defeated. And Luffy showing his respect. Its just such a shame that the fight didnt lead into that at all.
The arguments about Luffy winning due to durability/endurance are nothing more than a giant No Limits Fallacy. If Luffy took 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000 or w/e amount more hits, people would still defend it by saying "Luffy has stamina and endurance, therefore its okay" But clearly it isnt. Luffy being made out of Rubber does not justify having an endless amount of damage thrown on him and then being completely fine. Katakuri has taken less than 1/10 of the damage that Luffy has received. Katakuri has shown to be superior to Luffy in basically every single aspect of the fight. Yet he lost, because Oda cannot make a fight end logically to save his life.
If this was between individuals who had the same power roughly like Gear 2nd Luffy and Leopard Rob Lucci, then I wouldnt have a problem with this. Because it clearly was a back and forth that could go either way. But the gap here between Katakuri and Luffy was simply too big for this conclusion to the fight to make any sense. If Fairy Tail did this we would rightfully criticize it. If Natsu was getting his ass kicked 90% of the fight and then somehow starts defeating his opponent, we obviously would call it out. Yet because its One Piece this gets a pass.All Oda would have needed to do was simply have Katakuri stand over a defeated Luffy, but because he is honorable and respects him, throws him outta the Mirror World so Luffy can meet up with his crew and escape Big Mom. There. The hype of Katakuri remains intact, and the plot continues just like before. Then when Luffy faces his next foe in the next arc, he can say he got stronger from his loss or w/e and continue like normal. Everything resolved nicely.
I just like my fights to make sense. Its important. Its what keeps things believable and allows for tension to exist. When fights end in ridiculous ways where the MC clearly shouldnt have won, the tension decreases
Most One Piece fights do not even adhere to strict logic and instead advocate willpower persevering against imposing odds. I like fights to make sense too, but One Piece isn't really that type of strict no-nonsense meticulous fighting strategy story. This does not mean that there isn't a limit to this, hence why Luffy lost to Kuma and the Admirals. But Oda is more interested in writing stories based on concepts he thinks look "interesting" and "cool to him" in balance with having emotional narrative weight. Stories can balance these two things with more consistent fighting procedures, but Oda's not into that.
Oda's emphasized how Luffy has been blocking, dodging, and countering plenty of Katakuri's attacks throughout the fight and even had a "resting" period. We've seen Katakuri remark how Luffy keeps dodging his attacks annoyingly before Luffy even started mastering Observation Haki foresight. We saw Base Luffy getting in more hits on Katakuri over time. This is actually one of the more intricate fights Oda's made for Luffy instead of having keep tanking everything and the villain's pride making them tank an obviously powerful attack.
I don't mind the timeskip of hours, which is an exaggerated stalemate to the point that we shouldn't take it seriously (and right before this, we had Luffy lasting a long time against Cracker too). The only moment that bothered me is Luffy countering Awakening Square Mochi with Elephant Gun after a string of those attacks overwhelmed Bound Man. Especially when Katakuri was overpowering Elephant Gun without Square Mochi earlier in the fight.
For YOU maybe, LOL. Even Hancock turned that one around, so who knows. I wonder what if any DF power she might have. Besides, are we crediting any of Big Mom's family having an overabundance of intelligence or filters on their mouths or behaviors?
I won't suffer petty prejudicial idiots, so feel free to claim whats yours lol. And what a surprise, I don't like Hancock that much either. Especially given what she ended up as after being introduced as a Warlord. And people love to praise Katakuri's seriousness and Baron Tamago warning his comrades to not underestimate the Straw Hats for a reason, so it's nothing new.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Well, that thought makes perfect sense in Hancock. She lives in a (somehow) secluded warrior culture made entirely of women who see themselves as the strongest warriors and look down at the rest of the world. Hancock (or any Kuja) hating on men is them rejecting the outside world and its culture, not simply a gender matter.
On Cinnamon is just the typical Little Rascal girl x boy feud. "Boys are stupid", "girls are boring", and things like that. And I really liked Smoothie telling her to not say that while turning to the rest of the crew entirely made of men (so it actually read as Smoothie saying "respect our underlings").
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@.access:
Well, that thought makes perfect sense in Hancock. She lives in a (somehow) secluded warrior culture made entirely of women who see themselves as the strongest warriors and look down at the rest of the world. Hancock (or any Kuja) hating on men is them rejecting the outside world and its culture, not simply a gender matter.
On Cinnamon is just the typical Little Rascal girl x boy feud. "Boys are stupid", "girls are boring", and things like that. And I really liked Smoothie telling her to not say that while turning to the rest of the crew entirely made of men (so it actually read as Smoothie saying "respect our underlings").
I know Hancock's mindset makes sense considering her background. It's straight-up Wonder Woman and the Amazons. Never said she had bad characterization. But it still doesn't make me actually like her as a character lol. I like her backstory, Devil Fruit, and snake pet, if those things still count.
And I agree on the latter paragraph.
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@Long:
I dont think he threw away his respect for his family but just the image they made for him
My bad, I meant he threw away the family's respect for him (or his valuing of it, at any rate), not the other way around. He just stopped caring about their opinions and about following orders, it was all about his pride and ability, not actually doing what Mama told him to. Gotta respect someone breaking free of that when their whole family is all indoctrinated and screwed up psychologically.
@Count:
Most One Piece fights do not even adhere to strict logic and instead advocate willpower persevering against imposing odds. I like fights to make sense too, but One Piece isn't really that type of strict no-nonsense meticulous fighting strategy story. This does not mean that there isn't a limit to this, hence why Luffy lost to Kuma and the Admirals. But Oda is more interested in writing stories based on concepts he thinks look "interesting" and "cool to him" in balance with having emotional narrative weight. Stories can balance these two things with more consistent fighting procedures, but Oda's not into that.
Oda's emphasized how Luffy has been blocking, dodging, and countering plenty of Katakuri's attacks throughout the fight and even had a "resting" period. We've seen Katakuri remark how Luffy keeps dodging his attacks annoyingly before Luffy even started mastering Observation Haki foresight. We saw Base Luffy getting in more hits on Katakuri over time. This is actually one of the more intricate fights Oda's made for Luffy instead of having keep tanking everything and the villain's pride making them tank an obviously powerful attack.
I don't mind the timeskip of hours, which is an exaggerated stalemate to the point that we shouldn't take it seriously (and right before this, we had Luffy lasting a long time against Cracker too). The only moment that bothered me is Luffy countering Awakening Square Mochi with Elephant Gun after a string of those attacks overwhelmed Bound Man. Especially when Katakuri was overpowering Elephant Gun without Square Mochi earlier in the fight.
I won't suffer petty prejudicial idiots, so feel free to claim whats yours lol. And what a surprise, I don't like Hancock that much either. Especially given what she ended up as after being introduced as a Warlord. And people love to praise Katakuri's seriousness and Baron Tamago warning his comrades to not underestimate the Straw Hats for a reason, so it's nothing new.
True, where have we heard that before? Bellamy getting his face bashed in, Enel and his priests' overconfidence, Doflamingo being way too lax and standing back rather than getting personally involved early on, etc. It's kind of a lame trope at this point, but it's always fun to watch someone get their ass kicked for not taking a threat as seriously as they should have.
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I feel really dumb for not having understood the point of the fight until this reread. Maybe not the whole big picture, but it really does treat Katakuri more as the protagonist, in that he develops in character, whereas Luffy develops in ability. He comes to respect Luffy for doing the one thing, over and over, that he saw as disgraceful, that turned him to a legend in his families eyes, and that he did himself when at full comfort, fall on his back. Rubber is better than Mochi because Luffy always bounces back, whereas once Katakuri fell on his once, he stuck. Lolololol. It works though.
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Chapter observations(jeje):
Really looking forward to seeing the other members of Harjudin's crew. I wonder what Buggy will do now…
I love when cold calculate people try to figure out the thought process of someone like Luffy. Always getting it wrong, and he will probably Enel face. A direct confrontation with the Big Mom pirates seems impossible. Everyone in Cacao seems that can at least tango.
I hope it has nothing to do with a kiss. Maybe she asked him to come back for her one day? But why would she remove the cig?! She still wanted to be close without smoke all over her face. Or if it was, then Sanji better have dodged that like a jellybean.
I still wish we could have seen the impact and how Katakuri was pushed back. I hope this kind of thing is not skipped with Kaido. I am glad he is such a tank, someone can finally be wombo combo'd and not be sent flying. Katakuri looking at a hole and saying to himself: damn, got to wait 10 minutes, the floor seems like a nice place to rest.
Morgans, please be safe. Realize you have the scoop already and just go take a picture of Pedro... :D
I thought the Germa would show up, I wonder how Big Mom goes to Cacao with time constraints into consideration. Or is she even going there anymore.
Carrot being surprised of how many things Luffy cannot keep track of, was pretty neat.
Katakuri was done, Luffy even took a fighting pose, and Katakuri was barely even looking at him. I still cannot erase Rush Hour from my mind when Luffy left the hat. "Wipe yourself off, you dead"
Aww, Pekoms says Pedro died instead of sacrifice(which could end with....legs if/when Pedro showed up) Did Mystoms even confirmed it? The last panel with all the Big Mom pirates getting ready, with the three brothers on top of the mirror, it looks really good.
Still not sure how this goes from the great escape to friendly party with the BMP.
Predictions: Not many besides Pek..Mystoms being awesome, if he transforms in a spectacular way, with that mask on. Luffy is going to ask him to do it every full moon.
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@Count:
Most One Piece fights do not even adhere to strict logic and instead advocate willpower persevering against imposing odds. I like fights to make sense too, but One Piece isn't really that type of strict no-nonsense meticulous fighting strategy story. This does not mean that there isn't a limit to this, hence why Luffy lost to Kuma and the Admirals. But Oda is more interested in writing stories based on concepts he thinks look "interesting" and "cool to him" in balance with having emotional narrative weight. Stories can balance these two things with more consistent fighting procedures, but Oda's not into that.
Oda's emphasized how Luffy has been blocking, dodging, and countering plenty of Katakuri's attacks throughout the fight and even had a "resting" period. We've seen Katakuri remark how Luffy keeps dodging his attacks annoyingly before Luffy even started mastering Observation Haki foresight. We saw Base Luffy getting in more hits on Katakuri over time. This is actually one of the more intricate fights Oda's made for Luffy instead of having keep tanking everything and the villain's pride making them tank an obviously powerful attack.
I don't mind the timeskip of hours, which is an exaggerated stalemate to the point that we shouldn't take it seriously (and right before this, we had Luffy lasting a long time against Cracker too). The only moment that bothered me is Luffy countering Awakening Square Mochi with Elephant Gun after a string of those attacks overwhelmed Bound Man. Especially when Katakuri was overpowering Elephant Gun without Square Mochi earlier in the fight.
I love this argument(sarcasm): X doesn't have logic all along so is this makes this Y bullshit, not really bullshit.
The most amazing thing is that the X not being something is not even proven, and the fact that it even being proven only makes things worse, not better. Addition of bad things doesn't make something less bad. Though I understand that the point is that is a normalization, but if you're doing that, you're accepting that not only is bad, but is frequently bad.I also love the argument(sarcasm): X was bad but I don't care about the X, so X in fact is not bad.
Like what we are discussing is what you're thinking, instead about the story and the writing in it.And I also love the argument(sarcasm): Don't really "Strict Logic"(What the meaning of strick logic? I hope you not confusing real life physics or facts with Logic. They aren't in anyway the same. And if you're confused with their relantion, is just that Physics uses Logic as a tool), so is Y(Some unreal and abstract stuff).
Not only the "Strict Logic" is not proven to not be. In fact most times the person doesn't even understand what "Logic" is or just uses the extreme of Logic(the "strict" logic). So or is 8 or is 80, because something in between just cannot be. Also is implied that without "logic" of course we have Y, but not only that doesn't have to be true, most times it isn't. And is implied their exclusivity character. Like, you can't have "logic" and Y at the same time. Is "logic" or Y, if not "logic" than Y.
Note: By arguing and making your points you're using logic, though you're not using physics nor facts.Also I love the(You get it): Author showed X, Y, Z and W and more. So he knew what he was doing and expressed everything alright.
Like bullshit is not bullshit if the author tries to show something else to hide it. You don't need the thing to actually be well written or right, what you need is some excuse. In this case, Katakuri said that Luffy was the guy that could evade him most, so what? That take anything from what happened? In fact doesn't it make it worse? The guy that most could avoid Katakuri, couldn't avoid him much, but not only Katakuri still waited many times for him to compose himself but lost just because of that little difference. Basically that means Katakuri is incompetent.
Oda shown Luffy focusing in evading, and while doing that he's showed taking the beating of his life for hours. And still standing over and over and over again.
This seems totally like the misderaction of Kuroko, I couldn't believe you could do that in real life, but it seems that authors do that all the time.Please show me an example in One Piece where "logic" wasn't there(You can't use this fight :P), and where "Strict logic" also didn't. This is not me joking, I'm trying to understand what do you mean by Logic and Strict Logic.
You know what, that defense is basically the defense that fans of Naruto, Bleach and Fairy Tail, had throughout their series. And I'm seeing that it really doesn't matter what was done wrong, but really which author did it and how much a fan the one reading is. Well is not like this is the first time I seen this phenomena, the place where there is more of it is Togashi with HunterxHunter and Yu Yu Hakusho. Yu Yu Hakusho ending that is a beauty.
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Please show me an example in One Piece where "logic" wasn't there(You can't use this fight :P), and where "Strict logic" also didn't. This is not me joking, I'm trying to understand what do you mean by Logic and Strict Logic.
Usopp and Chopper vs. Mr. 4 and Miss Merry Christmas: Usopp gets struck in the face with a 4-ton bat. Gets bones broken all over his body. Yet he still gets back up to fight because he can't stand his captain's dream being laughed at. And he is only a normal human.
Luffy vs. Crocodile Round Three: Luffy gets poisoned from being stabbed Crocodile's poison hook, but survives and keeps fighting purely because of determination.
Luffy vs. Lucci: Luffy gets back up after being seemingly defeated by a Ryokugan, tanks another Ryokugan, and then finally defeated Lucci all because of the willpower he gained from Lucci being killed.
Zoro vs. Kuma: Zoro, already wounded from fighting Oars/Moria and withstanding Kuma's Ursus Shock, manages to take in all of Luffy's pain throughout the entire arc and still be alive purely out of badass illogical willpower.
Hajrudin vs. Machvise
But yes, let's assume that fights in the series where characters heal broken teeth/flesh wounds are healed by eating and unexplained inconceivable power-ups like Zoro's Asura are going to have perfectly logical fights. And lack of complete logic isn't going to make things worse when the series has been defined by this procedure for decades now.
The difference between One Piece and other shonen series is that it practically borders on having toon force for its characters a lot of the time. Right from that moment where Luffy punches a Sea King's face at the end of Chapter 1, this was never going to be a consistently meticulous fighting manga. Oda has a lot of freedom to play around how absurdly strong and durable his characters can be purely by making heir victories cathartic bouts of willpower winning the day. What matters is that the gap between opponents isn't ridiculously huge and that Oda can convincingly invest people in the emotional fortitude of his main characters achieving the impossible.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Don't forget Zoro defeating Mr.1 with a single attack after getting sliced up the whole fight. It's pretty much a shorter and and more ridiculous version of Luffy vs Katakuri.
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@Count:
Luffy vs. Lucci: Luffy gets back up after being seemingly defeated by a Ryokugan, tanks another Ryokugan, and then finally defeated Lucci all because of the willpower he gained from Lucci being killed.
Correction: Luffy eats three ryokugans in total.
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@Count:
Usopp and Chopper vs. Mr. 4 and Miss Merry Christmas: Usopp gets struck in the face with a 4-ton bat. Gets bones broken all over his body. Yet he still gets back up to fight because he can't stand his captain's dream being laughed at. And he is only a normal human.
Luffy vs. Crocodile Round Three: Luffy gets poisoned from being stabbed Crocodile's poison hook, but survives and keeps fighting purely because of determination.
Luffy vs. Lucci: Luffy gets back up after being seemingly defeated by a Ryokugan, tanks another Ryokugan, and then finally defeated Lucci all because of the willpower he gained from Lucci being killed.
Zoro vs. Kuma: Zoro, already wounded from fighting Oars/Moria and withstanding Kuma's Ursus Shock, manages to take in all of Luffy's pain throughout the entire arc and still be alive purely out of badass illogical willpower.
Hajrudin vs. Machvise: Hajrudin
But yes, let's assume that fights in the series where characters heal broken teeth/flesh wounds are healed by eating and unexplained inconceivable power-ups like Zoro's Asura are going to have perfectly logical fights. And lack of complete logic isn't going to make things worse when the series has been defined by this procedure for decades now.
The difference between One Piece and other shonen series is that it practically borders on having toon force for its characters a lot of the time. Right from that moment where Luffy punches a Sea King's face at the end of Chapter 1, this was never going to be a consistently meticulous fighting manga. Oda has a lot of freedom to play around how absurdly strong and durable his characters can be purely by making heir victories cathartic bouts of willpower winning the day. What matters is that the gap between opponents isn't ridiculously huge and that Oda can convincingly invest people in the emotional fortitude of his main characters achieving the impossible.
Heal broken teeth/flesh, wound being healed by eating, and unexplained "inconceivable" power-ups aren't illogical things, again you're confusing physical/factual/realistic with logic. What is important to a story is to being logical, not realistic, factual or in agreement of the rules of physics.
what power-up was inconceivable? Zoro Asura? Asura is as "inconceivable" as a flying slash, meaning not inconceivable at all. It being explained or not being explained is really irrelevant. Many times explained things is in fact bad. I understand that is why people love info dumps, even though is maybe the single worst error an author can do.
Note that like I said in my previous post, the fact that you're assuming that Logic and Willpower are exclusive is not true.
Ussop case. Somebody getting up through sheer willpower, even though they are badly hurt, is something that even happens in real life. You just exaggerate that and you get Ussop case. Given the fact that real life certainly is logic(you agree?), so an proporcional exaggeration of it is also logical.
See, Logic and Willpower at the same place.Luffy poison. The error of taking the word of a person inside the moment in the story as 100% certain. Are you just assuming that every character in the story is the word of god? That role is just to narration, not the characters inside the story. Crocodile being surprised Luffy endured the poison doesn't say that he was only enduring it because of is sheer willpower.
Willpower was involved, but not only, different bodies and different people endure different times, and is proven medical that your state of mind also influences your resistance, even if most times just because the placebo effect, but also due to improvement in the immunitary system. Also note that Luffy is Rubber, certainly it also counted. Normally Poison is used to stop or stress the heart, a rubber heart.
Still, that just excuses. The fact his that Luffy endured it for a bit longer, and the reason was not told to us, only the surprise by the enemy was shown. It would be a different thing if the effect would never kick in and an explanation why Luffy is poinson resistance never was told.
It doesn't remove the logic of the scene just because Luffy endured it with willpower. Also is important to note how much time he endured it. days? hours? minutes? In that moment? And how did he endured it? Like it was nothing? it affected him?Luffy vs Lucci: You're wrong here. He is seemingly defeated after the second Ryokogan not the first. The first Luffy took it(then right after that evading a rankyaku). The second time was when Ussop appeared, and the third was when it was supposedly really over, but he endured and gave it is all.
In fact this is similar with how some coaches/personal trainers train, they see when they are at their limit, and make them push pass that. It really hurts, but you basically pushed after your limits. In this case totally exageratted, but as we know One Piece and any fantasy series, specially Shonen Jump, have big exaggerations of reality.
The logic of that makes sense so, is pretty good and Ok scene(opposite with Katakuri, where not only wasn't just 3 times, but where Katakuri stayed waiting for Luffy to compose itself. Lucci in the first time threw right away a Rankyaku, the second and third he thought Luffy was done for. Katakuri never thought Luffy was done for, but he waited).Zoro vs Kuma: Is nothing illogical about Zoro surviving what he survived in Thriller Bark, he is the guy that the second arc he was in got canon balled and a house fell on him(in reality he was in the house) and he was survived.
Note that with Luffy vs Katakuri the problem isn't that Luffy survived, the problem is how did he came after it. Zoro after the canon and the house, passed out/slept, basically out of commission. With Kuma he was out of commission/lost before taking Luffy attack, after Luffy attack he couldn't move and soon passed out.
Luffy was pawned time and time again against Katakuri and he not only stand up, but kept fighting, over and over and over again, and for hours.
Note the situation of Luffy and Magellan, he got covered in poison. He didn't die, he survived. But he lost and passed out.Hajrudin, is basically parts of all the above. Ussop with the bones and getting up, Luffy with surpassing his limits and making an ultimate attack, and like Zoro and enduring all the pain not dying, but passing out.
Note how throughout the series, when characters got through tremendous stress(physically) they endured a lot, but never ridiculous and continuous amounts of it, and during and after the stress was always shown negative effects on them, ending out of commission(don't remember one where this didn't happen, probably zoro fights). Note how this is all throwed out of the window in this fight. Ridiculous and ocntinuous amounts of stress and basically no visible negative effect seen and even after the fight instead of out commission Luffy is just walking normally.
About Logic, logic is not the rules that reign reality of the fictional world, Logic are the guides/Truths that you follow in managing those Rules/Knowledge. For example, if you say something is A, then the inverse of A is different of A, unless they are the same thing.
Logic is, if I define that ,[ A < B OR B < C], then, [A is not >= B And B is not >= C]. Not mattering what A, B and C is.
The fact that logic is not restricted to the real life is what make it so powerful, flexible and useful in all fields. Just like Mathematics.The fundamental Logical operators are: Not, Or, And.
Logic is not that healing bones is wrong, Is that if you have the rule that bones heal, then when it doesn't that is incorrect/illogical(unless another rule exist that adds context).
Saying that a One Piece fight is Illogical, is meaning that doesn't follow the fictional rules that Oda placed himself. Or that Oda placed contradictory/conflicting rules and that they still happen at the same time.
Also note that storytelling, and most things, fall to the minimum denominator. Meaning that when some rule is not defined, that you go/assume the closest similar thing you know about. Meaning that anything that isn't defined in One Piece is considered just like real life(our closest minimum denominator), but opposite with other rules placed by the author, that are fixed(he can't just say, haki wasn't what I said, in fact is just something different), this are just "assumptions/guesses" and can be overwritten by the author whenever he pleases.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Don't forget Zoro defeating Mr.1 with a single attack after getting sliced up the whole fight. It's pretty much a shorter and and more ridiculous version of Luffy vs Katakuri.
Nope, he was sliced one time. The other he got one minced punch(just like Katakuri Minced punch). Those were the only attacks that he took, and with them he pretty much got KO. Now compare that with Luffy vs Katakuri. If you think is the same thing your scale is completely atrophied.
Until that point, and I believe even know, Swords don't need to make much hits to make definitive damage. This is one of the things where One Piece has been closer to real life than other manga of the kind.
Still the Mr. 1 Slice to Zoro made no sense at all. He sliced the building behind Zoro but not Zoro.
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@Bigivel, I don't think Luffy is walking normally. That is why Pekoms is there, Luffy might try to put up a fight, but he is done fighting.
About the consequences: would it be okay if/when Luffy is safe and on the ship he is unconscious until Wano?
What would fix the problem you are talking about moving forward to the next chapters?
Hidden:
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@Medical:
Which Charlotte family member has your favorite design? Personally, I think that former Sweet Commander looks like a Snack.
Katakuri….....16chars
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Luffy is usually always going to keep pushing forward so long as he has an objective he needs to complete. The only time he wasn't able to do that was at the end of Enies Lobby when he needed to return to his crew and escape, although it was pretty much met halfway by the escape method being a suddenly sentient ship. So with the extremely specific goal of getting to Cacao Island to reunite with his crew still in mind Luffy needs to keep conscious long enough to get out of Mirro-World. It's not any different from running to the outskirts of Sweet City to return to his waiting spot for Sanji after he had gone hours without eating and had sustained a ridiculous amount of injuries that never really healed (since the Book Prison stops the passage of time on one's body, and Luffy nearly pulled off his arms while he was inside it). But he kept going and going until he got to that spot, and then he collapsed and lost consciousness.
You seem to be under the impression that it's inconsistent for Oda to up Luffy's stamina to last several hours…why? Honestly, increasing endurance time is probably the most natural possible growth a character can have. It's not like Luffy has gained the ability to regenerate the wound on his side or to survive attacks that would be unquestionably fatal like a stab in the heart. He's just starting to gain the capabilities of a real pirate, the guys we've witnessed and heard about for hundreds of chapters, the ones who can fight for days at a time, survive traumatic injuries and still kick ass, people who don't easily succumb to stuff. So yeah, I really, really do not see how Luffy's feats beginning to exactly replicate those of several other characters is in any way inconsistent with One Piece.
Luffy will need time to recover from this bout. Lest we forget he was unconscious in that chasm for ~10 minutes and still only has just enough strength to crawl out and walk slowly. He's not going to get out of Cacao Island by himself. But until he's on the Sunny, he's going to rely on his willpower as long as he can to complete this mission, and only once he completes it will he shut down.
Spoiler:
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Luffy was wobbling away from Katakuri at the end. The official translation included sound effects.
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Enjoyed the outcome of this fight more than I can express. The respect was foreshadowed and deserved. I will admit the only reason I accept Luffy’s God Tier Stamina is because he is the embodiment of God Tier Willpower.
PS: Ya’ll need to chill with the fuckin 8 paragraphs quotes. Holy shit. Tag the person and snip out the parts you want to talk about. Writing damn 147 page thesis statements arguing over the color and smell of a characters balls.
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I feel like most of the hate for this ending comes from the fact that we waited 2 weeks for it after the single greatest fight chapter in all of one piece. The combination of contrast, hype, and anticipation led to some people being disappointed.
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To be quite honest, even though the end was quite cool, I really wish there was 1 more chapter like 895 then it would have felt a bit more complete to me.
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I've read some people arguing whether it was a draw or Luffy's win. Let's break it down:
- It was normal fight - it was a draw, both got KO'd
- It was fight to death - Luffy won. He was standing while Katakuri fell down. He could have easily finish Katakuri.
- It was fight with objective - Luffy had to KO Katakuri and be able to keep on walking - he achieved that goal.
It was 3) scenario so I say that Luffy won that fight.
Also It was very close fight. Katakuri even stood up for moment. I'd say most crucial part of Luffy's victory was Luffy's motivation and conviction. If Katakuri had better motivation he could muster some more strenght I'd say. Luffy just wanted to win MORE because more was at stake for him.
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…...I'm starting to think the introduction of days-long battles wasn't such a good idea, after all.
I mean, it was great when it was used as a hype-tool. But once we found out what the BIG big names are capable of, and then remembered that Luffy has to become the biggest of the big names--well, Oda kinda put himself in a tight spot. I don't think any of us want to actually see a fight go for hours or days, cause then we can't help but get caught up on the logistics of it, and the scenario starts to fall apart. Neither do I think Oda wants to really draw that out (double meaning intended), cause it sounds really monotonous. I wonder how many of the complaints would have been nullified had this fight been of a normal One Piece length...
@Count:
Well-reasoned and thoughtful post Still, this is easily the best post-timeskip fight we've had thus far. Which isn't THAT high a bar to pass, but still matters.
Here here! This was finally a fight without some countdown-to-doomsday component, and I'm okay with Oda taking a break from that trope for an arc.
Rubber is better than Mochi because Luffy always bounces back, whereas once Katakuri fell on his once, he stuck. Lolololol. It works though.
HA! A+, solid math.
@Kaido:
met halfway by the escape method being a suddenly sentient ship.
Speaking of people being mad that this fight isn't "logical" by One Piece standards
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@Count:
Usopp and Chopper vs. Mr. 4 and Miss Merry Christmas: Usopp gets struck in the face with a 4-ton bat. Gets bones broken all over his body. Yet he still gets back up to fight because he can't stand his captain's dream being laughed at. And he is only a normal human.
Luffy vs. Crocodile Round Three: Luffy gets poisoned from being stabbed Crocodile's poison hook, but survives and keeps fighting purely because of determination.
Luffy vs. Lucci: Luffy gets back up after being seemingly defeated by a Ryokugan, tanks another Ryokugan, and then finally defeated Lucci all because of the willpower he gained from Lucci being killed.
Zoro vs. Kuma: Zoro, already wounded from fighting Oars/Moria and withstanding Kuma's Ursus Shock, manages to take in all of Luffy's pain throughout the entire arc and still be alive purely out of badass illogical willpower.
Hajrudin vs. Machvise
But yes, let's assume that fights in the series where characters heal broken teeth/flesh wounds are healed by eating and unexplained inconceivable power-ups like Zoro's Asura are going to have perfectly logical fights. And lack of complete logic isn't going to make things worse when the series has been defined by this procedure for decades now.
The difference between One Piece and other shonen series is that it practically borders on having toon force for its characters a lot of the time. Right from that moment where Luffy punches a Sea King's face at the end of Chapter 1, this was never going to be a consistently meticulous fighting manga. Oda has a lot of freedom to play around how absurdly strong and durable his characters can be purely by making heir victories cathartic bouts of willpower winning the day. What matters is that the gap between opponents isn't ridiculously huge and that Oda can convincingly invest people in the emotional fortitude of his main characters achieving the impossible.
And still I get bashed if I wanna have a Yonkou-commander who can hold his breath for some time ;).
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@Count:
Oda has a lot of freedom to play around how absurdly strong and durable his characters can be purely by making heir victories cathartic bouts of willpower winning the day. What matters is that the gap between opponents isn't ridiculously huge and that Oda can convincingly invest people in the emotional fortitude of his main characters achieving the impossible.
Hody and Luffy, ridiculously huge gap strength-wise
Luffy almost died without Jinbe's help.Dammit Oda xD Why you nerfed so much Doflamingo and Katakuri??? If you can make willpower do the things that nobody can do, let them go serious on Luffy!
Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it. Even if something can be known about it,knowledge about it can't be communicated to others. Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood.
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@Shobu:
Hody and Luffy, ridiculously huge gap strength-wise
Luffy almost died without Jinbe's help.Everyone thought that was dumb back when it happened, and inconsistent with all of the other Luffy fights prior. It was the opposite extreme.
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@Shobu:
Hody and Luffy, ridiculously huge gap strength-wise
Luffy almost died without Jinbe's help.Dammit Oda xD Why you nerfed so much Doflamingo and Katakuri??? If you can make willpower do the things that nobody can do, let them go serious on Luffy!
Luffy didn't almost die because of Hody. He almost died because the effort required to destroy a country-sized ship caused his wounds to worsen and his blood to flow.
Purely coincidence
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Luffy didn't almost die because of Hody. He almost died because the effort required to destroy a country-sized ship caused his wounds to worsen and his blood to flow.
Normal building 10T approx
Gomu Gomu no Storm on a square of 10 buldings to raise Crocodile in to the heavens, already using blood to fightRly, you can't defend the undefendable.
Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it. Even if something can be known about it,knowledge about it can't be communicated to others. Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood.
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@Shobu:
Normal building 10T approx
Gomu Gomu no Storm on a square of 10 buldings to raise Crocodile in to the heavens, already using blood to fightRly, you can't defend the undefendable.
?
Are you saying that what Luffy did to Croc was more strenuous than him trying to break something the size of a mountain?
Purely coincidence
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Would it have been better if Katakuri were a less redeemable villain? Oda spent a lot of time softening his edges; there probably would have been better (and more appropriate) drama if Katakuri were more consistently ruthless.
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Would it have been better if Katakuri were a less redeemable villain? Oda spent a lot of time softening his edges; there probably would have been better (and more appropriate) drama if Katakuri were more consistently ruthless.
In the midst of Big Mom being the central antagonist focus, I don't think making Katakuri less redeemable as a character. Especially when his redeemable traits redeemed the character's generic stoic edgy appearance foe me after his appearance in the wedding.
I think the answer is making Katakuri's internal conflict and influence feel as memorable as Franky vs. Señor Pink with the latter's flashback, but on the scale of a climactic Luffy fight. Which Oda tried do, and did a tolerable job of. But it suffers from all of the setup starting during the fight and the fight being segmented all over the place to disrupt the pacing, and thus disrupt how much we care about the fight. Better buildup and tragedy on that front which amounts to more than "I'll disappoint my shallow siblings" and Luffy himself being more invested in the fight somehow. Like Luffy consciously proclaiming to prove Katakuri's principles of molding his life based on his family's expectations wrong, and that's why he has a better relationship with his crew/family, rather than that being something he does incidentally because Luffy is only interested for getting stronger.
Basically, Luffy needed more of the thematic weight he had when knocking out Bellamy's ass in Jaya to avenge his friends and prove the value of dreams, while Katakuri needed more consistent and compelling internal conflict build-up on the tension level of Señor Pink's flashback. But for what Oda did do for these character's motivations, it's still tolerable.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Would it have been better if Katakuri were a less redeemable villain? Oda spent a lot of time softening his edges; there probably would have been better (and more appropriate) drama if Katakuri were more consistently ruthless.
People definitely wouldn't be jumping over hoops to call it a tie, that's for sure…
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@K.:
@Bigivel, I don't think Luffy is walking normally. That is why Pekoms is there, Luffy might try to put up a fight, but he is done fighting.
About the consequences: would it be okay if/when Luffy is safe and on the ship he is unconscious until Wano?
What would fix the problem you are talking about moving forward to the next chapters?
The walking normally or not is really irrelevant. What is important is that he is walking, and that is one more thing bad about this fight.
The consequences had to also happen during the fight, they didn't. And that is even more important due to the time the fight took and the number of attacks that he took and the times he went down. That already is out of the question given that is already in the past and it was done horrible. Now about the after battle effects, you also have the problem of the walking, so another bad thing. For all the bad things we have already, the only saving grace right now is is condition after getting out of the mirror world(or in the mirror world if next chapters still show him on it). The until Wano, depends how long it takes to Wano.
Also note that given the fact that he walking after the battle, suddenly going unconscious for a long time is a negative as well. So it now Oda has to be careful about how much of inanctive Luffy will become and for how long. Given how this fight was made I'm not hopefull he will even care and I will not even be surprised if he gets at least another clash with Big Mom.The problem can't be really fixed anymore given that is depended on something done really badly. What Oda can do is softening the following problems related with the fight against Katakuri, and in next fights, that aren't related with this fight and arc, he becomes more careful and makes a fight that makes more sense. Unfortunately humans, specially authors, when go as far on something their common action is not to retract but continuing in that path.
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Can't believe people are genuinely griping about Luffy wobbling about. The only thing that would actually resonate with me negatively is if he found himself fighting someone else in this same arc. But obviously that won't happen.
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@Kaido:
Luffy is usually always going to keep pushing forward so long as he has an objective he needs to complete. The only time he wasn't able to do that was at the end of Enies Lobby when he needed to return to his crew and escape, although it was pretty much met halfway by the escape method being a suddenly sentient ship. So with the extremely specific goal of getting to Cacao Island to reunite with his crew still in mind Luffy needs to keep conscious long enough to get out of Mirro-World. It's not any different from running to the outskirts of Sweet City to return to his waiting spot for Sanji after he had gone hours without eating and had sustained a ridiculous amount of injuries that never really healed (since the Book Prison stops the passage of time on one's body, and Luffy nearly pulled off his arms while he was inside it). But he kept going and going until he got to that spot, and then he collapsed and lost consciousness.
You seem to be under the impression that it's inconsistent for Oda to up Luffy's stamina to last several hours…why? Honestly, increasing endurance time is probably the most natural possible growth a character can have. It's not like Luffy has gained the ability to regenerate the wound on his side or to survive attacks that would be unquestionably fatal like a stab in the heart. He's just starting to gain the capabilities of a real pirate, the guys we've witnessed and heard about for hundreds of chapters, the ones who can fight for days at a time, survive traumatic injuries and still kick ass, people who don't easily succumb to stuff. So yeah, I really, really do not see how Luffy's feats beginning to exactly replicate those of several other characters is in any way inconsistent with One Piece.
Luffy will need time to recover from this bout. Lest we forget he was unconscious in that chasm for ~10 minutes and still only has just enough strength to crawl out and walk slowly. He's not going to get out of Cacao Island by himself. But until he's on the Sunny, he's going to rely on his willpower as long as he can to complete this mission, and only once he completes it will he shut down.
Up Luffy's stamina -> this is one thing
Up Luffy's stamina to last several hours -> Another
Up Luffy's stamina to last several hours of beating -> AnotherIf you can't understand the difference of things, and if you think that because "Up" something is OK, anything that can be reduced to "Up" is also OK, know that you're completely wrong.
Increasing endurance time -> Again, don't reduce things to unqualifying measures and accept the generality of it. While increasing his endurance time is Ok, increasing to any extent his endurance time is not acceptable. While there is a interval, possibly a big one, where increasing endurance time is OK even Excellent, it doesn't exclude the existence of another interval, intervals where is just unnaceptable.
It's not like Luffy has gained the ability to regenerate the wound on his side -> It seems exactly like he has. More, it seems like he has auto ressurection.
Again, fighting even is totally different from fighting a beating down. Equating the two is a huge act of stupidity. Is common sense that if one person is taking a beating that he will loose rather quickly, that if he's giving the beating that he will win rather quickly and if he is even that the fight with take longer and longer.
Is like we are throwing common sense out of the window, just to justify what you want to be true." I really, really do not see how Luffy's feats beginning to exactly replicate those of several other characters is in any way inconsistent with One Piece" -> How about him fighting a 8 hours battle against an even enemy? What about days? Because by taking hours of a beating he totally isn't replicating Akainu and Aokiji, they were even, not even Jinbei and Ace, they also were even.
Oh, he took a beating for hours, and after 10 minutes of resting he can only crawl out and walk slowly. That is totally a credible the reaction of somebody that takes a beating for hours.
So basically he has infinite charge until the mission is over, and that is OK, because the excuse is "Willpower"? It will totally be exciting seeing him fighting Kaido with his infinite charge until he is able to end him. It will be an incredible number of days of beating.
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@Sibersk:
Luffy was wobbling away from Katakuri at the end. The official translation included sound effects.
Oh, that changes everything. Instead of walking he is wobbling.
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I feel like most of the hate for this ending comes from the fact that we waited 2 weeks for it after the single greatest fight chapter in all of one piece. The combination of contrast, hype, and anticipation led to some people being disappointed.
Nope, nothing to do with the 2 week wait.
If you look at the panelling and the drawing and the dynamic of the fighting, yep it was great. Unfortunately the fight isn't with two random guys and isn't happening in a vaccumm. And all of that is horrible.
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I've read some people arguing whether it was a draw or Luffy's win. Let's break it down:
- It was normal fight - it was a draw, both got KO'd
- It was fight to death - Luffy won. He was standing while Katakuri fell down. He could have easily finish Katakuri.
- It was fight with objective - Luffy had to KO Katakuri and be able to keep on walking - he achieved that goal.
It was 3) scenario so I say that Luffy won that fight.
Also It was very close fight. Katakuri even stood up for moment. I'd say most crucial part of Luffy's victory was Luffy's motivation and conviction. If Katakuri had better motivation he could muster some more strenght I'd say. Luffy just wanted to win MORE because more was at stake for him.
It doesn't matter what kind of fight it is. The last guy standing is the winner, and that is all. The rest is just excuses people do to get things their way.
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Here here! This was finally a fight without some countdown-to-doomsday component, and I'm okay with Oda taking a break from that trope for an arc.
Speaking of people being mad that this fight isn't "logical" by One Piece standards
What is the time they have to meet? Isn't it a countdown? The only difference is a countdown to what possibly, really just possibly, will be the resolution of the arc. Note that Big Mom is a catastrophe herself.
What do you mean by "logically by One Piece Standards"? That sentence makes no sense?
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Would it have been better if Katakuri were a less redeemable villain? Oda spent a lot of time softening his edges; there probably would have been better (and more appropriate) drama if Katakuri were more consistently ruthless.
It has nothing to do with Katakuri as a character.
About his character, is horrible written, I tried not to mix that with the problems of the fight, but another horrible thing in this part is Katakuri and his character. The fact that people think that he is pride and honourable and like his respet for Luffy just shows how easily they are emotionally manipulated. This could very well be a serial killer that was showing his "pride" and "honour" with his killing of random people, by just continuing to kill random people instead of taking a pattern. And You just had to show a character which mother was one of his random victims feeling respect by the serieal killer due to his showing of "pride", "honour" and preserverance.
This is basically the same situation, only the fact that the "pride and honour" and "respect" comes from the same person instead of two. Katakuri actions are the ridiculously disgraceful and treasonous and stupid(at least if you going to betray someone and disgrace yourself do it for an minimally inteligent reason), still people look at it in an isulated glance and think is amazing.
Why the word ruthless is in here? Killing or capture your family and mother failed assassin in an efficiently way has nothing to do with ruthless. In fact the ruthless is the assassin, you know Luffy.
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@Kaido:
Dude, learn to use multiquote please
Learned, and used it a lot of times. It really isn't worth the effort you need to make it, most of the times.
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Learned, and used it a lot of times. It really isn't worth the effort you need to make it, most of the times.
If it's not worth the effort to write, then its rarely worth the effort to read. You seemed to have 8 different thoughts in response to that chunk of text and its really hard to tell what exactly you are replying to if you don't separate it out.
Purely coincidence
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I think he meant that multiquoting takes time, and most of the times doing all that formatting is irrelevant because the response quotes and snips the content.
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If it's not worth the effort to write, then its rarely worth the effort to read. You seemed to have 8 different thoughts in response to that chunk of text and its really hard to tell what exactly you are replying to if you don't separate it out.
How in the hell did you took the interpertation of "not worth the effort to write" with those exchange of words?
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Learned, and used it a lot of times. It really isn't worth the effort you need to make it, most of the times.
Not to you maybe but it's considerate to not ping people multiple times.
Anyways, a lot of your argument seems to rest in your perception that Luffy has been constantly being beaten up, and getting up only to be slaughtered again. But was that really the case? Here's an exchange from earlier on in the battle -
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Luffy has been working to dodge Katakuri's attacks and hasn't constantly been barraged by them. When Katakuri pulled out Mogura, Luffy dodged those strikes until Flampe interfered. We see another exchange like this in Chapter 891:
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So with this in mind, how does the fight go?
Luffy and Katakuri trade initial blows. Katakuri demonstrates that he can do anything that Luffy can but better and gets hits in.
Luffy gets assaulted by Katakuri as he gets distracted helping his crewmates. Katakuri attempts to attack him with Mogura but the hits don't land, and although difficult, Luffy manages to dodge a fair number of attacks once he gets his head in the game.
Katakuri buries Luffy in mochi for merienda. Luffy breaks Katakuri's concentration after catching him in his gluttony, allowing Luffy to go Gear Fourth and hit Katakuri with at least two Kong Guns and a Rhino Schneider - this should not be understated.
Katakuri regains the advantage and hits Luffy with Power Mochi, but it's uncertain how much damage this causes considering Gear Fourth causes a lot of attacks to bounce off of Luffy.
Luffy escapes the Mirro-World while Gear Fourth recharges, giving both fighters a bit of a rest break.
The battle resumes, and although Luffy works on using his Haki to dodge Katakuri's attacks, Katakuri's more advanced Haki allows him to get hits in each time they tango like this.
Flampe interferes, allowing Katakuri to pierce Luffy and then barrage him with attacks he is now unable to dodge. After finding out about her interference, Katakuri pierces himself to remove his unfair advantage.
Luffy's Haki reaches Katakuri's level, allowing him to both dodge Katakuri's hits with greater frequency and hit the Sweet Commander who hasn't been hit in years before this day. The two fight on an even playing field until their final clash, which Luffy emerges from triumphant.So yeah, I don't really see how Katakuri has been massacring Luffy here. Yes, Luffy has taken the brunt of the damage, but it cannot go unstated how he has managed to avoid the brunt of Katakuri's attacks most of the time and how he was able to lay in several Gear Fourth hits early on. So in addition to your standards for how long someone should be able to last being entirely your own invention, your perception of this fight being just Luffy constantly getting kicked around without a break into the end has colored this fight in a way it really shouldn't be.
Spoiler:
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Rubber is better than Mochi because Luffy always bounces back, whereas once Katakuri fell on his once, he stuck. Lolololol. It works though.
I've seen people bring this up as a possible metaphor in the fight (MiyamotoMusashi brought it up in Greg's thread. And while it makes perfect sense and is possible, I'm convinced that Oda would come up with it after the fact of introducing Katakuri/starting the fight), I would have preferred this being a literal focus in the fight. Keeping up that "I can everything you can do better" theme in the start of the fight instead of that becoming an afterthought. So instead of all this arbitrary focus on seeing the future and whatnot that I'm sure is going to be forgotten by the time Luffy fights Kaido the same way normal Observation Haki is mostly ignored (prove me wrong, Oda), their fight would focus more on these different specialties.
The three main differences I can find between rubber and mochi are two things:
1. Rubber is somewhat stretchy but always snaps back into its original shape, mochi can stretch into all sorts of shapes but can't revert back to its original shape.
2. Rubber is bouncy while mochi is sticky.
3. Mochi is edible, rubber is not.Katakuri's stretchiness is greater than Luffy's, meaning that a lot of his mochi constructs are stronger than Luffy's rubber attacks. But the drawback for this would be that Katakuri can't revert his mochi transformations back to normal, he can only enlarge them. Unlike how Luffy's extended limbs will snap back into place. So Luffy would have greater mobility in using his rubber body to grapple all over the place. If you stretch and let go of a rubber band, it's fly to the other side of the room. If you stretch a piece of gum, it just stays in that new shape. You can maybe clump it back into a smaller shape, but it will never look exactly the same as that sleek manufactured shape when it came fresh off the wrapper. At best, Katakuri would grapple in slower way like somebody using a rope to climb up a mountain or like how a cowboy uses their lasso to wrangle cattle.
Meanwhile, after Katakuri uses an attack, he would probably have to shed whatever parts of his body. He can do this like like a snake shedding its skin, cutting his own arms off and then regrowing normal sized arms like Piccolo does with Namekian regeneration, inflates them with heat like microwaved popcorn to use them as missiles and bombs like his Grilled Mochi attack, or he just freaking eats himself with those chompers of his (you can't tell me this is too "graphic" when Wapol ate himself and Luffy ate Cracker's soldiers). What do you do whenever you chew gum for while, to the point where you get tired of chewing or the gum looses its taste? You throw it out and get a new piece of gum, right? That is what Katakuri is essentially doing by cutting off used mochi constructs to grow new ones. And Luffy would need to focus on evading attacks and waiting for these short severing/regeneration periods to hurt Katakuri.
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Now you might think "hey, wouldn't that leave a bunch of creepy severed Katakuri mochi limbs all over the place"? Yes and no. And I don't see why it would be a bad thing, it'd look cool as hell. But even if it's too creepy, all of those severed body parts will boil down to regular mochi by being cut off. Regular STICKY mochi. So the longer the fight progresses, the more that sticky swamp pools of mochi litter the ground. If Luffy steps on them, his movement will get impeded from the stickiness like Trebol's mucus (but maybe not as powerful just so Trebol's Devil Fruit doesn't become an "inferior" Devil Fruit, so Luffy only gets slower than stopping dead in his tracks). Katakuri even used this type of tactic once, but my idea has one more key difference:
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When enough mochi is spread throughout the battlefield, THAT is when Katakuri can activate his Awakening. He forms those Peerless Donuts of his from all of the sticky mochi littered on the ground from melted down pools of his his severed mochi body parts, not shapeshifting the actual ground to have mochi like properties like Doflamingo's Break White Awakening. It would also help Awakening look like it makes more sense than transforming the environment despite it being made of completely different properties.
This type of scenario would also give Gear Fourth more weight (no pun intended) because he needs to rely on flight to avoid these mochi pools and counter Katakuri's Power Mochi fists. And if he needs to recharge himself from Gear Fourth usage? He can eat Katakuri's mochi leftovers the same way he ate Cracker's crackers.
And Luffy could perhaps be inspired by either Katakuri's mochi constructs or the Mirror World mirror transportation to come up with Snakeman. Boundman won't be enough to defeat Katakuri because of how most of its attacks rely on close contact, so Katakuri's Power Mochi will always react too fast for Boundman's attacks to connect. He needs long-range and perhaps even more speed to counter Katakuri's reaction time.
Also, Luffy knows that he can use Brûlée and the Mirror World mirrors to enter/leave the fight constantly and attack Katakuri from other directions he can't predict. But Luffy refuses to do that because it would be cheating and a crutch that doesn't make him improve his own capabilities. So he comes up with a way to work that punch redirection principle into a new power-up's specialty. Then everything about the ending of fight starting from Snakeman's introduction stays the same. We could also get a killer visual of a Jet Culverin actually punching through the middle of a Peerless Donut to deal a haymaker straight across Katakuri's jaw right before he can react.
This even makes the "rubber is better because Luffy always bounces back" metaphor even stronger. Luffy willing to get back up from his injuries proudly while Katakuri is ashamed of being knocked on his back, that part's obvious. But Katakuri has to constantly change his shape like the way he has to change his persona in front of his family, and technically hurt himself after every attack to grow parts of himself back to normal the same way he's mentally hurting himself by living up to these ridiculous standards instead of being himself. Luffy adapts his body to meet certain needs too, but he is still comfortable with returning to his new shape without any self-harm, because he embraces who he is without any facades for the entire world to witness. The more Katakuri cuts off parts of his true self, the more he just feeds everybody else's selfish egos with his mochi/facade instead of helping himself.
Mochi can stick and stretch into all sorts of directions, but it's always hard to peel it off whatever it touches and return it back to its original form. But rubber can always fling as far as the eye can see and bounce back to its true shape without any trouble. It is the humble creativity and honesty Luffy embodies as a rubber man that makes him the winner of this fight.
But hey, Super Saiyan Observation Haki foresight lessons and random trident drill summoning are cool too. I guess.
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@Count:
In the midst of Big Mom being the central antagonist focus, I don't think making Katakuri less redeemable as a character. Especially when his redeemable traits redeemed the character's generic stoic edgy appearance foe me after his appearance in the wedding.
I think the answer is making Katakuri's internal conflict and influence feel as memorable as Franky vs. Señor Pink with the latter's flashback, but on the scale of a climactic Luffy fight. Which Oda tried do, and did a tolerable job of. But it suffers from all of the setup starting during the fight and the fight being segmented all over the place to disrupt the pacing, and thus disrupt how much we care about the fight. Better buildup and tragedy on that front which amounts to more than "I'll disappoint my shallow siblings" and Luffy himself being more invested in the fight somehow. Like Luffy consciously proclaiming to prove Katakuri's principles of molding his life based on his family's expectations wrong, and that's why he has a better relationship with his crew/family, rather than that being something he does incidentally because Luffy is only interested for getting stronger.
Basically, Luffy needed more of the thematic weight he had when knocking out Bellamy's ass in Jaya to avenge his friends and prove the value of dreams, while Katakuri needed more consistent and compelling internal conflict build-up on the tension level of Señor Pink's flashback. But for what Oda did do for these character's motivations, it's still tolerable.
It's certainly tolerable, but I think you've hit the salient points. I had forgotten that characters like Katakuri and Tamago play the much-needed role of balancing the dysfunction that plagues the rest of the crew (including Big Mom).
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Count Mario, your posts are insightful as always even if I don't agree with a lot of what you say here. I think there is a lot going on thematically with the Katakuri fight and literally almost all of it is unspoken. We actually still don't even know how Katakuri feels about Luffy, but I took his "Will you come back to defeat Big Mom?" line to actually be a bit hopeful, like he had faith in Luffy somehow freeing him of his position. I don't think that Katakuri betrayed Big Mom, but I think his characterization throughout the fight heavily suggested that after awhile he started pulling his punches. I absolutely love the thing about mochi sticking whereas rubber always bouncing back but I unfortunately think it's giving Oda too much credit.
I would have loved to see Katakuri's characterization happen prior to the fight (an issue post-timeskip in general is that there are just so many characters that it's so hard to devote time to the ones that matter), but at the same time, I really like what little information we were given about him and they made for some really awesome moments like him stabbing himself. Luffy really hasn't ever had a rivalry quite like this before, and the fact that it was explored in such a silent way was really compelling. Like you said, it's easily the strongest fight scene we've gotten post-timeskip.
Now that the dust has settled a bit, I think seeing Katakuri in a worse state would have gone a long way. Like, Luffy lost a tooth in this fight, y'know? I can't help but feel like if Luffy had knocked one of Dog's Tooth out, this would have made sense to a lot more people. It makes me wonder if Katakuri was deliberately written to mask the actual state of his endurance because he took his image so seriously, so it gave the impression that he was in fine shape until it was all over. I think that most of Gear 4's abilities are visually confusing, especially shit like Culverin, but I still would have liked to see an actual final blow panel. It doesn't matter that much to me because One Piece isn't about the fight scenes in the same way shit like Naruto was, but I didn't get the sense that it was an epic clash.
One last critique that I have is that the whole 10+ hour fights thing is kind of dumb to me. It was cool to read that Akainu and Aokiji had fought for ten days on Punk Hazard and we later saw that the island's climate was changed forever, but this is the first fight that really seems to prove beyond a doubt that the fights will actually go on to reach that length. I don't know how I feel about that. I like things like Luffy resetting G4 because it gives some narrative breathing room and builds hype (and also feels realistic), but the fight with Katakuri actually lasting like 10 hours just doesn't feel right to me. I prefer these things to be more of a moment of ideals, and if Oda wanted the fight with Katakuri to be a battle of endurance, that's perfectly fine… but I can't shake the feeling that this is just setting the stage for what will culminate to a ten day battle with Shanks or Blackbeard or whatever at the end of the series and I'm not on board with that.
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Lol when the guy doesn't use multiquote and you get 44819947 notifications.
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Count Mario, your posts are insightful as always even if I don't agree with a lot of what you say here.
Thank you for both the praise and honesty.
I think there is a lot going on thematically with the Katakuri fight and literally almost all of it is unspoken. We actually still don't even know how Katakuri feels about Luffy, but I took his "Will you come back to defeat Big Mom?" line to actually be a bit hopeful, like he had faith in Luffy somehow freeing him of his position. I don't think that Katakuri betrayed Big Mom, but I think his characterization throughout the fight heavily suggested that after awhile he started pulling his punches. I absolutely love the thing about mochi sticking whereas rubber always bouncing back but I unfortunately think it's giving Oda too much credit.
I think we at least know that he respects Luffy's tenacity. Hence taking issue with Flambe's supporting attack and seeming satisfied by Luffy's answer of still wanting to beat Big Mom. I doubt that Katakuri held back at all, rather, he got even more into the fight as it progressed because an opponent like Luffy pushed him, which forced him to liberate himself figuratively and literally to keep up. He was ashamed about falling on his back at first, but he's content enough with Luffy's commitment to this fight and his dream while finally succumbing to the fatigue, making him finally lay on his back. While all of the plot-threads when it came to Luffy's escape and Katakuri's big brother pride/discrimination could have been executed with more relevant build-up before the fight started, his relationship with Luffy was handled decently. Although I would have preferred getting more immersed in Katakuri's struggle than a short last minute flashback and bratty little sister spitting space. It's typical One Piece shallowness, sure, but almost to the point of being a cheesy parody.
My problem mainly lies with Luffy's side of the fight. To me, Luffy could care less about Katakuri. I bet he only looks at Katakuri as "that strong guy from Big Mom's crew who I needed get away from my friends. Wait, I know! I'll use him to push myself and get stronger. And I slightly respect him as a fighter."
But yes, I do think that rubber>mochi metaphor is giving Oda too much credit. I only saw Luffy being stubborn like usual. Oda's usually a lot more blatant about underlying themes like this. MiyamotoMusashi posted in another thread how Luffy told Moria that rubber always bounces back as a retort, which is a line this fight should have had.
I would have loved to see Katakuri's characterization happen prior to the fight (an issue post-timeskip in general is that there are just so many characters that it's so hard to devote time to the ones that matter), but at the same time, I really like what little information we were given about him and they made for some really awesome moments like him stabbing himself. Luffy really hasn't ever had a rivalry quite like this before, and the fact that it was explored in such a silent way was really compelling. Like you said, it's easily the strongest fight scene we've gotten post-timeskip.
I don't think we needed to actually see more of Katakuri before the fight (aside from maybe seeing a hint of his "Snack Time worship"). His mysterious hard-to-read stoicalness (which seemed bland to me at first but now I like it in hindsight) helps the fights twists work better. What we should get more of are his family's reactions to him. To help establish what he means to the family as the stern unyielding backbone of the Big Mom Pirates. Which really helps emphasize how much of a facade Katakuri is pulling when all of the characterization we're getting about him comes from what people are saying ABOUT him, not from himself. We only got last minute hints of that from Brûlée and Flambé.
Now that the dust has settled a bit, I think seeing Katakuri in a worse state would have gone a long way. Like, Luffy lost a tooth in this fight, y'know? I can't help but feel like if Luffy had knocked one of Dog's Tooth out, this would have made sense to a lot more people. It makes me wonder if Katakuri was deliberately written to mask the actual state of his endurance because he took his image so seriously, so it gave the impression that he was in fine shape until it was all over. I think that most of Gear 4's abilities are visually confusing, especially shit like Culverin, but I still would have liked to see an actual final blow panel. It doesn't matter that much to me because One Piece isn't about the fight scenes in the same way shit like Naruto was, but I didn't get the sense that it was an epic clash.
Showing more damage to Katakuri to emphasize how he is shapeshifting to dodge Luffy's attacks less and less because of caring less about his image or something like that could work. I don't think we were ever meant to think that Katakuri was left unfazed by all of these attacks until the end so much as refusing to be seen as being inhibited by them, hence not wanting to ever lie on his back as a neon sign of "defeat".
Visually confusing how? Is it because Luffy's limbs being coated with stiff-as-steel Haki makes it hard to buy into the elastic properties of his moves like Kong Gun and Culverin? If so, I agree, but I've gotten used to it. But aside from that, I can follow his attacks well. And from the final fights, I didn't get "clash" so much as them both hitting each other with their attacks.
I would have liked to see the final blow impact too. Especially when that is always a highlight for Luffy's fights.
One last critique that I have is that the whole 10+ hour fights thing is kind of dumb to me. It was cool to read that Akainu and Aokiji had fought for ten days on Punk Hazard and we later saw that the island's climate was changed forever, but this is the first fight that really seems to prove beyond a doubt that the fights will actually go on to reach that length. I don't know how I feel about that. I like things like Luffy resetting G4 because it gives some narrative breathing room and builds hype (and also feels realistic), but the fight with Katakuri actually lasting like 10 hours just doesn't feel right to me. I prefer these things to be more of a moment of ideals, and if Oda wanted the fight with Katakuri to be a battle of endurance, that's perfectly fine… but I can't shake the feeling that this is just setting the stage for what will culminate to a ten day battle with Shanks or Blackbeard or whatever at the end of the series and I'm not on board with that.
It is unsettling to think about how this might set up a new status-quo, but we should keep in mind how unique this arc's circumstances are. So it may not be an ongoing thing barring those formulaic moments where Luffy has to be stuck in one place during the middle of the arc so the plot can progress around other characters. The final fight against Blackbeard though… That can be great or terrible, especially if that fight is as segmented between other scenes like the Katakuri battle was.
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Even if Shanks and Blackbeard have a 10 year battle it would all be off screened with a little snippet informing us of the aftermath. So you won't even feel like it dragged on for very long if that's what your issue is. The 10 hour fight was needed to show the level these two are at. Have you noticed that fights drag on for a lengthy period when the two at loggerheads are very equal in strength and power? Ace and Jinbei, Akainu and Aojiki, Luffy and Katakuri. There is the exception of having a very defensive and impregnable DF power that drags the fight on longer than need be, Cracker comes to mind. All in all, it helps us understand that they're pretty much on the same level and who "wants it more" is the eventual winner.
Why was there no visually stunning final blow that gave us the sense of an epic end? To maintain the status quo that Luffy and Katakuri respected one another. There should be no humiliating ugly panel of one or the other's face getting contorted every which way to the point of looking comical. This was no mere fight where Katakuri actively threatened to kill Luffy's comrades or abandon the fight mid way to give chase to Robin in order to carry out some execution. It was a fitting end, maybe not satisfying from a fighting perspective but if Oda wanted us to like this so called Villain he definitely wrapped it up appropriately so that he retains some dignity in the readers eyes. I prefer it that way too.
Year of Sanji, let's go!
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Even if Shanks and Blackbeard have a 10 year battle it would all be off screened with a little snippet informing us of the aftermath.
I actually think Oda would at least show a part of it like he did for Ace vs. Blackbeard. Shanks' defeat is too major for Oda to completely off-panel.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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@Count:
I actually think Oda would at least show a part of it like he did for Ace vs. Blackbeard. Shanks' defeat is too major for Oda to completely off-panel.
I would hope so too, except that would be wishful thinking. It will definitely be given spotlight if Luffy is watching on as the fight unfolds. If Shanks dies in the next great war I can see it being given a whole arcs worth of focus, ala Whitebeard.
Also, I would have thought Luffy's dad and co. Versus Blackbeard would be given some spotlight too. I mean it's a big deal…
Count you mentioned above that the awakening used by Katakuri makes use of his dropped/shedded limbs as obviously it's not logia so it can't magically go back to being absolutely original shape. But doesn't he shape shift the mirror world constructs around him and turn them into Mochi too? Or did I completely miss the point of what you were trying to get at?
Year of Sanji, let's go!
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Count you mentioned above that the awakening used by Katakuri makes use of his dropped/shedded limbs as obviously it's not logia so it can't magically go back to being absolutely original shape. But doesn't he shape shift the mirror world constructs around him and turn them into Mochi too? Or did I completely miss the point of what you were trying to get at?
My shedded+melted mochi limbs idea is a replacement for Katakuri shapeshifting the Mirror World and transforming the environment itself into mochi. So that his Awakening has conditions for being activated and a more intuitive origin than "I can transform whatever the environment is into mochi/strings/whatever".
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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I highly recommend you guys watch this video
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I know I'm in the extremely small minority here, but I personally wouldn't mind super long fights as a way to keep characters engaged in something during these large arcs with tons of different things happening at once (which seems to be the norm nowadays) as opposed to just having them running around. We could still see the important parts (discovering enemy weaknesses, stating reasons they have to win, reacting to major events, finishing blows, etc.), keeping the skipped parts to "they hit each other for 3 hours without either side making progress". Doesn't Zoro fighting King the Calamity for 5 hours while all the events leading up to the climax of Wano simultaneously take place sound better than Zoro chasing King as the latter shifts through all the stone on the island, causing Zoro to run around like a headless chicken for half the arc before cornering King (plot twist: he was a swordsman all along) and beating him in two hits?
