Oh boy, all of these replies are going to be exciting to compile and respond to.
@brennen.exe:
@Count Mario: I don't like responding to things in-line, so I'm spoilering the entire reply to make my life easier.
No problem.
! > All of these were actually covered in the film, so you probably just missed it. Hux told Ben when he woke up that Rey escaped and stole Snoke's personal ship. She found the Resistance and where they were on the planet by using the tracking device– she even stated, "They should be right here, where are they??" at one point. Lastly, just before she dropped out of hyperspace in the Falcon she told Chewie to wait for her signal or something... I don't recall exactly, but more or less she told him she'd escape the ship and meet up with him, and to wait for her.
! Oh. So they just talked about it. And Snoke has an imaginary off-screen ship. Okay, I guess. Still would have preferred at least seeing a glimpse of Rey escaping or noticing an escape pod or something to fully immerse myself into the surprise return. I vaguely remember her saying that to Chewie too, but we don't know what that signal is. Eh, I'll just let it go. But it's not even like she has a grand entrance that's meant to garner shock out of how she made it there. She just… casually shows up in a flying Millennium Falcon. So the intent here of cutting out the transition is weird and I don't know why the choice was made other than to save time.
! > For this one, the idea was that Ben allowed Snoke to read his thoughts in that moment, and organized his thoughts in a misleading way so that he could "turn on his lightsaber" and "kill his enemy"; so in a classic villain monologue "basking in my own glory" moment he misses the subtle turning of Rey's saber on himself. (Ben said in VII the blue one belongs to him). It does suspend disbelief a bit, but if you allow yourself to enjoy the moment of it then it works out OK. I was surprised they killed him in this movie, and am not sure how they will make Ben a credible villain for IX, but… we'll see I guess.
! Meh, still had sloppy execution to it for the sake of the twist instead of something more clever. And say this as somebody who wanted Ben to betray Snoke and become the main villain. But yes, giving Ben credibility as a villain concerns me.
! > Yeah I'm not thrilled with what they did with Luke's character. I suppose I always believed he had matured by the end of the first trilogy, even though yes he was tempted and even succumbed a bit during VI, and was always irritated with EU plot-lines that forced the whole "oops he fell to the darkside for a while". I'm burnt out on shows/movies making characters overly emotive or reactionary. Even worse, to me, was the fact that it was a big misunderstanding apparently? "I had a moment of weakness but then stopped… but Ben didn't know that I had stopped... so I left him alone to become a galactic terrorist." Sure, I get it, Ben was already corrupted and the darkness was growing in him, so naturally you just give up and become a hermit.
! Ugh, I don't like narrative misunderstandings like that too lol. Although you can't really explain away "hey, I was just CONSIDERING to kill you, that's no big deal, right?"
! > I think Finn's behavior at the start of the film was fine and in-line with his portrayal in VII. He didn't get over his fear of the First Order for the sake of the Alliance in VII, he got over his fear of it for Rey, and that was all he wanted to do in the beginning of VIII; find Rey and make sure she's safe. Rey and Finn had great chemistry (IMO), and their interactions and relationship in VII were a lot of fun, so when they doubled-down on that in this movie I was on board that ship. What I didn't like was the whole Rose romance thing– it's a minor thing to be annoyed with, and their interactions were instructive for Finn to grow as a character, but the attempt at romance was just so sloppy I don't buy it for a second. Unrequited feelings, sure, but that's not what the ending scene portrayed with Rey looking at Finn looking at Rose.
! I was fine with it too, just listing a complaint I kept seeing other people make to hear some thoughts. But yes, I completely agree on how last-minute and sloppy the romance is.
! > I've never really bought into this argument, personally, but I remember my friend reading the novelization of VII a few days after it came out in theaters and apparently the book expands on this a little more? It expands on a lot of things, apparently, but this was one of them, sort of. Rey says in VIII that she always felt the force but it was always dormant, and the book for VII apparently described her time living on Jakku as "training" of sorts, I guess? She spent all her life around advanced space tech, knew the in's and out's of ships and their parts (mechanic), and knew how to work them. She spent all her life protecting herself and defending herself from others who would steal from her, so she knew how to fight and use a weapon. Put this all together and when "the force awakens" in her she has all that she needs to be the perfect heroine. It's a bit contrived, but I was ok with it. Same as her beating Ben in VII, which to me was obviously because 1.) he was off balance from killing his dad (it made him weaker, not stronger) , 2.) he was shot by Chewie's bow which had been built up all movie as a devastating weapon, and 3.) he was trying to turn her, not kill her. I guess I can overlook that aspect of her… it never bothered me.
Might as well note that I thought it was obvious prior to VIII that her parents were nobodies. I walked out of Force Awakens certain that her parents were just random people that left her behind because they sucked... that's the type of place Jakku was. I thought Maz made that point clear when she said that Rey knows deep down that they are never coming back. When I heard people argue that her parents might be Skywalkers, or Solos, or Windus, or whatever I didn't really understand it. Not the desire for her to come from a bloodline (don't we hate that stuff?) or the need to know more about her parents.
Edit: One more thing! Ben/Kylo says in VII (while trying to read Rey's thoughts) that he could see her dreaming of a small island surrounded by an ocean. That obviously suggested that while she was living as a normal person on Jakku, she was having force visions of meeting Luke (at the end of the film).
! Eh, it's contrived… But I can buy into it, I guess. To be honest, Rey's proficiency doesn't bother me as much as other people. What irks me more is that she lacks the characterization to make up for that and more, so I have no qualms with her being the protagonist. Because she's really, really bland.
! I also expected the parents to be nobodies. At least, that's what I was hoping for instead of another Skywalker bloodline. But my issue with that is it got dragged out this long and Rey's character is so... hollow that I don't think it adds anything to her motivations or perspective aside from a Dark Side tempt offer that I never bought into her taking since she is always stubborn about doing the right thing. It just happens, and then that's it. Nothing really changes for her. Maybe we will see effects of this in the third movie, but it still feels, I don't want to say underwhelming, it's just there. Probably for meta commentary about how you don't have to be from a special bloodline to be special, but I've seen other stories tackle that so much better by making their protagonists a lot more charismatic to explain why they're special.
! > I think you are answering your own question here, that it's meant to be just like the cave on Dagobah. I agree though that the whole thing was sloppy, with Luke's concerns and her actions having no consequence or follow up. It was just… there.
! Pretty much.
@Daz:
Kylo Ren is a pretty awesome character, and Adam Driver plays the hell out of him.
Completely agree.
Might as well throw my hat into this “fight” as well:
Sweet.
I loved the Canto Bight sequence. It felt new and fresh, adding to the iconography rather than rehashing it. It might go on a little too long, but the sequence is well told, and the simple fact of hanging out with new characters in fun situations in a new location was enough to satisfy me. And it was just fun (I realize the comedy has become a point of contention for this movie, but seeing as how I was positive towards the movie, I at least was quite susceptible to it. I found it frequently hilarious.)
It was okay. But it didn't really impress me a a locale because of how it was… just a casino town. As weird as this is to say, it didn't look Star Wars-y or sci-fi enough for me. Sure, it was new, but it was pretty much just a real world location. Except with aliens instead of humans/animals, and slightly quirky clothing. So I thought it was just okay on a visual level, although the action scenes toward the end were kind of exciting, I can admit that.
! > Also, in regards to the sequence being a “PSA” or “moralizing” or whatever: Good. Too often blockbusters feel wishy-washy or bland in their messaging, I like seeing Star Wars take a determined, progressive stance. Makes it feel more heartfelt, less like the corporate product that it is. Also, Canto Bight has truckloads of character and thematic relevance, and is worth it a thousand times over for that final shot. So good.
! As somebody who used the PSA wording, I am NEVER against stories having good moral messages. People who complain about stories "moralizing" are dumb as hell and don't realize that stories of escapism don't have to just be escapism and can be more useful by shedding light on good knowledge and ethics to practice back into reality. That casino stuff elaborating on how royals profit off of the war and how kids get left behind and enslaved to pay off debts was decent worldbuilding and it brings in a bit more depth to the conflict of all the star wars that doesn't just focus on another way to make the Empire/First Order look even more evil. The problem for me is that I didn't feel like I could care about that as much as I should. Likely because of how the only focal point for that is Rose, and Rose is… eh. Along with how minor all of the casino stuff is in the plot and doesn't really go much of anywhere in a way that isn't just side quest stuff. Robby is completely right by saying that an adventure like that can work in an episode of a tv show, but faces problems when it's inserted into a movie.
! That's why I said "PSA" in relation to what Robby said, because it's like an episode of a show you only remember for its PSA message (like don't do drugs, or don't cut down rain forests), but the actual content itself wasn't that interesting or entertaining. We don't even really dig into it that much aside from seeing some animals get whipped and slave kids like Anakin. Which is sad, but I don't have that much of an attachment to what was happening. And even then, I don't mind minor plotlines that doesn't have major consequences either. Humor is often unnecessary too. So long as it's entertaining, I can get into it. And for me... it was okay. But nothing that memorable.
! The Mos Eisley and Jabba the Hutt scenes in the original trilogy made much more memorable impression on me in showing the dark criminal underbelly of the Star Wars universe with a unique ambiance and compelling characters being involved. Along with just being fun.
Count, a few more comments to your pile, regarding some of the stuff others haven’t covered extensively. Not trying to convince you to the “right perspective”, obviously, just putting my own take out there.
For the record, I consider myself to have a pretty strong attachment to the Original Trilogy. And what I was looking for was more great stories building on that iconography, that tone, that universe…something I found to an extent in the EU novels, for a time. I even dug the hell out of the New Jedi Order, because it felt like a progression rather than a retread. This all caused TFA to be a massive disappointment to me – Really, we’re doing this again? This is all Star Wars can be? - And also what caused me to like The Last Jedi. The foundation was still to similar to the Star Wars of old for my liking, but it actually managed to surprise me, most importantly through its surprising thematic heft. Seriously, when a movie feels assured of itself and its vision it makes me forgive a lot; I consider Speed Racer great for the same reason.
That's all fine. I just feel like even though I liked watching the movie, in light of all these mostly valid complaints, we're purposefully letting a bunch of small flaws/nitpicks that noticeably pile up go unnoticed just because the movie is trying new things and has good meta messages. And both of those things are fine, it's about time that we're seeing interesting things like that. But great stories, in my opinion, find a way to do that while also making the story itself feel consistent to preserve immersion, delivers satisfying payoff on overarching plotlines, and can be successfully entertaining and meaningful in and of themselves as stories/characters, not just for the messages they express.
And that's where I feel the movie stumbles in a few areas. Both the literal and figurative side of a movie should be awesome, not just one half with the other side just being okay or good enough despite having issues. You know, like maintaining balance in the Force.
! > I get the let down/”betrayal” of Luke getting a downer ending rather than Jedi Academy Headmaster Luke, but it worked for me based on several factors: A) The real life/fictional jump of 40 years makes such change go down easier. B) ROTJ had previously shown Luke to be prone to impulsiveness; All it takes is light goading from Vader to make Luke to absolutely postal on him, pacifist approach be damned. I can buy a flaw like that lingering, especially considering C) I got the impression Snoke was egging the process along, and only needed a single instance of weakness from Luke D)Mark Hamill sells the hell out of it, goddamn.
The map makes no sense, but I hated that aspect of TFA, so I let it slide in this.
! But that's the thing! I don't need Jedi Academy Headmaster Luke, I could less of a damn about that. I just don't want cynical hermit Obi-Wan and Yoda again for a character like Luke who was all about redeeming their mistakes and proving them wrong lol. That's my problem. Have Luke change as much as you want, just not in a way we already saw before for his mentors that he was an antithesis to as a youngling. And when that light goading comes from the guy who blew up Alderaan, froze Han alive, killed Obi-Wan, sliced off your hand, refuses your attempts to reach out to you, and is threatening to kill your sister in the middle of the stress of a life-or-death battle, I don't call that as just being light goading. At least not enough to make me buy into him considering to kill his nephew, who has committed no heinous actions yet, just because of having bad thoughts in his head from a negative influence instead of at least trying to talk to him. Especially when he went on and on about wanting to redeem his father who did all of those terrible things I mentioned above (plus child/Jedi slaughtering).
! But yes, Mark Hamill does sell the hell out of it. So I can enjoy cynical hermit Luke despite it not being my preferred direction for such a character. But it feels like as much of a step backwards as making a third/fourth Death Star.
! > I too wish we were given more detail on Snoke given the new trilogys status as sequels, but I place the fault of that squarely on TFA, which couldn’t be bothered to establish much of anything. And while the details on him and his turning of Ben are needlessly vague, the first movie never establishes him as some mystery to be cracked- in story, theres no characters going “who is this guy? Where did he come from? Whats his deal?”. Any elaboration on him would be purely for the benefit for us viewers, and run the risk of feeling inorganic. I wish he was more fleshed out, but I don’t begrudge TLJ for looking at the shit hand it was delt and going “…yeah, I don’t have time to clean up this mess, I’ll just address what I need to tell a complete a story as possible”.
! Nobody's asking those things in the plot, sure, but these are still major things that are creating problems for my suspension of disbelief. If The Force Awakens can't do that, then The Last Jedi should pick up at one more scene worth of slack for elaborating on Snoke if they're so willing to have casino world side quests and lackluster Phasma returns for Finn.
! > And Snokes backstory was simply not essential to the telling of TLJ’s story.
! I don't need a whole biography about him. Just at least one sentence or two about why he has such a hard-on about recreating the Empire in everything but name, and how he might have come to learn the Force if he is not a Sith or Jedi. Seriously, this all could've worked out if they just slightly alluded to him being Plagueis.
! > Also, Leia force-pulling herself to safety was cool as balls. My entire theatre were “oooh” ing. Just putting that out there.
! It looked so freaking silly to me, man lol.
! > Have the Knights of Ren ever been mentioned by name the actual movies? Did TFA ascribe any significance to them beyond a split second montage image? I could be wrong honestly don’t think so. The Knights of Ren are only significant insofar as the hype/speculation game has made them. They were a product of the ad-libbed JJ/TFA mystery box hype machine that never got capitalized on, so I don’t feel TLJ was obligated to follow up on them.
! I feel like they might have been mentioned once, very briefly. I don't know. But they're still connected to why Ben calls himself Kylo Ren. So that would be interesting to know. But I suppose we have to let it go without question the same way the original trilogy never really explains why Darth Vader is called Darth Vader aside from a vague way to cast aside his old identity of Anakin Skywalker. But besides that, I mention the Knights of Ren primarily because that is who I assume to be the other students who ran away with Ben. I would've liked to learn more about them. Sure, we could do that in the third film, but it feels weird for them to be completely in the background until then. Especially when Ben by himself doesn't have any wins under his belt to make his villain ascension status feeling more meaningful than being a cool twist. That's just me.
! > Meta answer: because shes the first main female protagonist in the series
Story Answer: Because she just is. Because fuck hereditary Chosen One-ness. Rey is a force prodigy for the same reason Remy is a cooking prodigy despite not even being Gusteau reincarnated in rat form. And for the same reason a random stableboy can casually use force telekinesis, showing innate force skill beyond any character in the series to date. You can argue that “that’s not how Star Wars used to work”, but frankly, I much prefer the shift from Destinity Genetics towards The Force is For Everyone. You don’t need to be a Skywalker/Obi Wan/Whatever spawn to be a hero, you can be some rando with no important ancestors whatsoever. Incidentally, the entire Canto Bight sequence was worth it for that meta/thematic payoff alone.
Star Wars is more than Skywalkers. Finally.
! At least we saw Remy talk about sneaking into human houses to play around with food and watch cooking shows lol. But yeah, I said all of that not because I actually want Rey to be another Skywalker. God, I could care less for having another chosen one. But mainly that I feel like the "I have no parents" reveal came too late in this trilogy. Although you could easily blame that on The Force Awakens. I don't feel like it noticeably adds anything to Rey's characterization because of how bland she is. It only makes her seem like she might join Ben, but that was obviously never going to happen she never shows any real temptations of going evil aside from not being afraid to explore a damn cave. Luke even points out earlier in the film that she has no reason to be on the island at all except for wanting answers about her parents. It only serves as a meta message about how you don't need to be born special to be someone great. Which is awesome. Except… She was born special with her huge affinity for the Force. So she was just lucky. So all of it feels... rather meh.
! Seriously, I could forgive all of this if Rey was at least an interesting protagonist. But she's not. So yeah.
! > I thought it was quite clever how the Meta Commentary of OT worship was woven into a commentary on hero worship and failing teachers in general, as a subheader to the general theme of learning from failure. Lukes arc is about him coming to terms with his failures and his status as a legend, the first scene with Rose has her instantly disillusioned with Finn, Ren rejects both his mentors who saw him as a potential/wanted him to be a new Vader. But the story is also about taking the positives from the past, and of the sowing of hope- hope that can be instilled by the legends of the past, but need not be directly connected to it. At all levels, it’s a story about moving on.
! It was clever. But it feels like they put meta commentary above actual story quality and consistency. That's my issue. I don't like praising a movie just because it had a good message tell, but I also want to praise it for how well of a job it does telling that story in-universe. And in-universe… there's issues. Most of it's minor stuff, but it all piles up too much for me to ignore. And that's precisely the problem, because you can tell how many shortcuts had to be made for the sake of getting that meta commentary through no matter what.
! Personally, I would prefer for this whole trilogy to just move on from the start and not bother with making so many rhythmic patterns and twists chained to expectations from the old trilogy. Or at least get that over with in the first film, not do it after a copy and paste of an older trilogy installment. The only storyline that I felt really did the whole meta commentary of OT worship awesomely was Kylo Ren's progression of living up to Vader's legacy only to end up wanting to let everything go.. Everything else is lackluster, redundant, or forceful in some way or another even if there are positives.
@andre:
! I personally think that's missing the point. That Rey is so naturally strong in the force isn't a big deal. She's the main protagonist, so yeah, we expect that. I don't think it's a problem that she's so strong and a "nobody" either, or that she's good as a mechanic or flying ships. It's the amalgamation of all of it together. She's the strongest in the force while also being immediately great with a lightsaber, and a better pilot than Han Solo. What?
! I think for those of us who have issues with her lightsaber mastery, it'll probably never change because if as Brennen mentioned, one can be convinced that her bo staff training prepared her, than we're on a different page altogether. I've always understood lightsabers to be uniquely difficult to use proficiently. Not sure if this is old EU or canon, though. Even if it is old EU, the difference between her training and Luke's or even Anakin's is what's so jarring. She's positioned as better with a saber than freaking Kylo Ren. Not just from the first film, but because she's the one that saves him in this second one after disposing of her guards more quickly. Is there really anything that can give credence to this when she wasn't trained at all to use a lightsaber, only a bo staff, while he was trained by Luke and Snoke? I'm not sure if the answer can be "because shes the first main female protagonist in the series" and be satisfying to a large section of people, when all could be well if she was… trained? Would a one week timejump and that much training, even begrudgingly, from Luke really be too much to ask for?
! Because all in all, we're not really dealing with the issue of inheritance as a measure of ability. We're dealing with randoms not just being powerful in the force, which is fine, (sheev) but randoms being proficient in everything just to one-up the past. I guess it's partly the thesis of it all; forgetting the past. I'm not so sure I'm ready to let it all go, especially in a series that was labeled as a continuation of the Skywalker saga, before the first came out. I think most of the fans with complaints aren't either. I'm also aware how that'll sound after the reaction that TFA received, but there has to be some happy medium.
! One last thing. The hints of any type of development toward competency, not devotion, but competency, we thought we'd get for Finn in this film will make me always hate everything about the casino scenes, even if that kid becomes the next coming of Obi Wan. I was invested in his journey and so ready for him to do something cool after the bait and switch of TFA's marketing and this was all proof to me that he'll probably be relegated to comic relief till the end. Not quite a boon for black male representation that I was hoping for, but, I guess we'll always have... Falcon..
Exactly.
@ Demon Rin
! @Demon:
! > How long has it been since you saw RotJ? After Vader takes Luke to the Emperor, the emperor spends the entire "fight" taunting Luke to give into his anger and his "Journey to the Dark Side will be complete". He gives into his anger TWICE.
He tries to strike down the Emperor, only to be blocked by Vader, and then when Vader taunts him about Leia he goes berserk and attacks Vader, only stopping when he slices off his hand and that shocks him out of it.
So yeah, this isn't the same guy who "Remained Steadfast" in redeeming Darth Vader, this is the guy who snapped and gave into his anger and fear twice before finally getting it together at the end to redeem his father.
So yeah, not inconsistent at all.
! I'm going to copy and paste what I said to Daz because I still feel like that is large ignoring overall context about who exactly Darth Vader is in comparison to pre-turned Ben Solo and the tension of being in that kind of fight.
! @Count Mario:
! > But that's the thing! I don't need Jedi Academy Headmaster Luke, I could less of a damn about that. That also wouldn't also been a bit boring and predictable, especially in making up excuses as to how and why he doesn't save the day instead of the new main characters.. I just don't want cynical hermit Obi-Wan and Yoda again for a character like Luke who was all about redeeming their mistakes and proving them wrong lol. That's my problem. Have Luke change as much as you want, just not in a way we already saw before for his mentors that he was an antithesis to as a youngling. And when that light goading comes from the guy who blew up Alderaan, froze Han alive, killed Obi-Wan, sliced off your hand, refuses your attempts to reach out to you, and is threatening to kill your sister in the middle of the stress of a life-or-death battle, I don't call that as just being light goading. At least not enough to make me buy into him considering to kill his nephew, who has committed no heinous actions yet, just because of having bad thoughts in his head from a negative influence instead of at least trying to talk to him. Especially when he went on and on about wanting to redeem his father who did all of those terrible things I mentioned above (plus child/Jedi slaughtering).
But yes, Mark Hamill does sell the hell out of it. So I can enjoy cynical hermit Luke despite it not being my preferred direction for such a character. But it feels like as much of a step backwards as making a third/fourth Death Star. I'm game for showing some of Luke's flaws, just not in such a redundant direction.
! > That's not how it went. Nobody ever said Luke left the map.
Admittedly, this is a failure of TFA and not TLJ, the novelization of TFA clears this up IIRC.
He was going to the first Jedi Temple. Leia knew where he was going but not how to get there, which is how Luke wanted it. The Map wasn't a map to Luke that he left them it was a Map to the First Jedi Temple. The only reason it was a "Map to Luke Skywalker" was because they knew he was there.
! Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
! > From the way he talks about the Jedi order in TLJ, I assume when he went there he wasn't as jaded as he would become later. He read up, learned about the failures of the Jedi order and got more jaded
! Seems likely. Although lackluster.
! > I never got cowardace from Finn in the beginning of TLJ. He didn't want to leave to get away from The First Order, but just like he was in the latter half of TFA, he cares about Rey first, the Resistance second. He looked at the situation and thought there was a chance they would be destroyed, so that "Rey first" mentality kicked in and he wanted to get the Beacon she was going to follow far away from this so she didn't come back right into the hands of the First Order.
I got this impression because the second an alternative was presented to save the Resistance and thus accomplish both goals, he was immediately on board without issue.
! I agree. That was my impression too, caring about Rey more in the current situation. Just wanted to list that complaint since other people have said it.
! > Ok, answer the following question using ONLY information in Episodes 4-6. So NO EU or Prequel information at all.
Who is Palpatine? How did he learn the Force? How did he come into contact with Anakin? How did he convince Anakin to turn to the Dark Side? Why did he want to start the Empire?
Are we now saying that Empire and Jedi were bad films because they didn't tell us any of this? The Force Awakens doesn't telegraph any of this stuff being a big mystery we need answered either. Everyone just already knows who Snoke is at the start of the movie.
Plus, Kylo Ren is our new Big Bad and he's not making his own thing, he's taking over the First Order. A lot of these questions DO remain relevant going into Episode IX. We may still get answers to some of them.
! All of that mystery worked for Palpatine because the original trilogy operates off the status-quo of after Palpatine's takeover. We barely learn much about the Jedi days at all besides vague references. Repeating that again for the new trilogy makes suspending that disbelief harder because you have all of the questions Palpatine has but also "why does somebody want to recreate Palpatine's empire in a near-exact fashion", "how does somebody who is neither a Jedi nor Sith become so proficient in the Force?", and "How does he manage to influence one of Luke's students to join the Dark Side under Luke's nose?" Which are the straws that break the camel's back for immersion this time around of the story.
! So I have to give the benefit of the doubt that we're going to learn more stuff about a character who's already dead in a sequel when somebody has already taken his place? Okay then. There's not much precedent for flashbacks in this series aside from Rey's Force Vision and Luke considering to kill Ben. So we have to hope for the best from words, I guess. Then again, Obi-Wan showed up as a Force Ghost again. Although I doubt Snoke can do that. Even if we do learn more about Snoke, it's not going to change the flaw of how much Snoke's characterization lacks in The Last Jedi. Especially when I could at least get into the Ian McDiarmid's hamminess as the Emperor.
! > The Ren lightsaber thing I thought was clever. He was doing the same thing in his hands as if he was about to kill Rey as he was with the saber next to Snoke to trick him.
! I could actually buy into the twist if that single line about Snoke reading Ben's mind for all of the shenanigans that ensured throughout the story was never said.
! F
! > or the life of me I don't understand why people hate the Leia thing. She didn't use the force to fly or anything, she was in the vaccum of space floating. It doesn't take much effort or energy at that point to move when there's no gravity. All she had to do was use basic force pull on anything stationary in the ship and it would gently pull her in like it did. If she'd Blown the door open when she got in there and then sucked it up and went "Ok cool, let's make the next plan!" that would have been a little much, but what we got wasn't weird at all.
! It's not Leia using the Force in and of itself. It's Leia surviving the vacuum of space, and then using the Force with presumably little-to-no-training in such a dire situation. And maybe this just me being stupid because of faulty memory, but I even vaguely remember hearing her somehow knocking on the door of the hatch she entered the ship through lol.
! > Again, with Ren now being the main antagonist of IX, this would be an excellt thing to bring up there. This movie didn't need to answer this one.
! It's still weird that we never see them for two whole films. And it would help give Ben more credibility as an antagonist if we saw him have these presumably powerful henchmen under him while being hyped for the third film instead of his track record two humiliating losses against the Jedi and nothing else. Besides fooling Snoke, I guess.
! > What special bloodline did Mace Windu have? What about Yoda? What was his special Bloodline? Obi Wan? What awesome parents did he have?
Before the fall of the Republic, the Jedi were barred from having spouses or kids. They never bred before. How did they get Force users before? Finding random, semingly insignificant people who are force sensitive and training them. Rey is basically just one of those.
! What do I do know is that they at least got years of training as Jedi Knights. Rey being sensitive to the Force isn't the issue I'm calling attention to. It's her quick acclimation to being proficient in it, along with a bunch of other skills, that makes her existence look awkward if her parents are scumbag nobodies. Read Andre's posts to get what I mean.
! > As to why she is as powerful as she is. Snoke answered this. The Force is a living thing, that's why it's often called "The Living Force". It can take action itself to help if there is an imbalance. That's why Anakin was virgin birthed.
Rey being as powerful as she is is the force's attempt to Self-correct since Kylor Ren and Snoke have tipped the balance to the Dark. Snoke flat out says this at one point.
! Okay, I can kind of buy that. I remember that now. He said something like he thought Luke would counter Ben, but it turns out that Rey did.
@Kaido:
! @Kaido:
! > Luke successfully redeemed Vader in their first encounter after their first duel, after reconciling Vader's revelation with Kenobi's POV truth. He became a hero after everything was said and done and you can bet it filled him with a lot of self-confidence. Though I would say and you'd probably agree that maybe the movie could have tackled this better and not left as much to other sources, I don't believe Ben was instantly turned. Snoke influenced him over a period of time, and Luke tried to correct his course, but was unsuccessful. Realizing he's falling short of his "hero" moment must hurt pretty badly and his botched assassination attempt just put the icing on the cake. Luke fell hard after previously being defined by his success and that's what Yoda gets at in their discussion. I hope we see more of Ren's past in IX to look into how irredeemable he is.
! If we saw one, just one quick flashback scene of Luke trying to talk to Ben before feeling forced to consider killing him, or at least Luke mentioning that he tried to unsuccessfully talk to Ben beforehand, then Luke's characterization here would be a lot more easier and compelling to swallow. But no, we just get "I could tell it was already too late, he had turned" or shlock along those lines just from reading thoughts and deciding to preemptively consider killing a child, his own nephew (like how Vader was his father, who Luke never even grew up with and only knew as an awful villain). That's all we have to go on as far as we definitively know. I don't like giving movies the benefit of the doubt for taking obvious shortcuts just to do whatever they want to do. And that still doesn't mean I approve of seeing Luke becoming Obi-Wan/Yoda 2.0. because we already saw that story and the point of Luke's interactions with them aside from training was proving them wrong about how there is another way, that there is redemption. That just got copy and pasted for Rey, except with the good twist that Ben doesn't fully turn. And that twist's quality is not enough to justify all of the redundant retreading in my eyes.
! > I'm totally fine with this; Finn explicitly stated in the last act of TFA that he only went on Starkiller Base to save Rey and that got a bit of a wtf reaction from Han. His motivation early in this film fit with that.
! I'm fine with it too. Just listed it to get your thoughts since other people list it as a complain.
! > I don't consider Snoke's role in this film a plothole because he was essentially an open book in TFA. Someone who more or less just resembled a shallow copy of the emperor; he had no known ulterior motives and seemed to be doing just typical dark side stuff for the unlimited powah. So him getting killed was certainly unexpected and subverted a lot of fan expectations, but it didn't really cut short any character progression he might have had since he didn't have any to begin with. I do agree that I'd definitely like to learn more about him in the next film, specifically how he lead Kylo astray and how he came into power to begin with, but I think his role in the film worked well since TFA left his future actions an open book.
! Snoke's existence isn't as big of a plot hole so much as it is weird to swallow. He's basically as mysterious as the Emperor was before the prequel films came out, on top of being a copycat for some reason, masterly proficient in the Force despite not being a Jedi or Sith for some reason, and influencing Ben under Luke's nose somehow for some reason.
! > That's more of a complaint about the series as a trilogy so far, and one that I'd say applies more to TFA than TLJ because TLJ mainly focused on Ren's personal training under Snoke. Given Ben's heritage, he was probably a pretty big shot among Luke's other pupils and so it would definitely make sense for some to follow him under a group leader mentality.
! Did it really focus on Ben's personal training? All we got was chastisement from Snoke, manipulation from Snoke, an explanation about how Ben was defeated at the end of The Force Awakens, and how Ben was chosen because he is has Skywalker blood. We didn't learn anything specifically about the training and influence to jump over to the Dark Side that Ben got from Snoke. Learning more about Ben and Snoke's relationship over the years in-between the old and new trilogies would have been great in my opinion. I easily welcome it over any of Finn or Poe's side plots, not that they were bad. And if such things were covered, I would expect the other pupils to at least get a cameo as well. Let's hope for the best in the third film.
! And speaking of training, did we ever find out what Luke's third lesson for Rey was supposed to be? The first is about how the Force is what connects all things and how light/dark coexist, the second is about the Jedi's flawed hubris and how legends can still fall short, but Rey leaves before the third lesson. I'm still curious about that. Who knows, maybe he shows up as a Force Ghost for the third film to teach Rey whatever that is.
! > Because the point of the movie is that you don't have to have a special bloodline for the Force to awaken in you.
! It's not the Force awakening in Rey that is the issue, it's her huge proficiency in it that is the problem. Hence what Luke said about how he saw such absurd power in Ben before and how it scares him now. I doubt he would say the same thing about his other students' potential, and Ben at least descends from the Chosen One. For more clarification, read any of Andre's recent posts.
! > I never really cared for that part of the movie either but that's filed under standalone story beats rather than bigger scope problems.
! True, but I was really getting into typing all of the issues in my mind about the film if I was going to go into this much detail anyways lol.
! > It would make sense for Luke not to be able to communicate with Force ghosts if he's turned his back on the Force.
! …GREAT POINT. I can totally buy that now! Thanks for telling me, you're the first person to say that. Wow, I should've realized that lol.
! > It was stated that she had taken Snoke's escape vessel. Given that she got to the Supremacy on the Falcon, I'm not surprised that she was able to arrange for the Falcon to return. As for finding the Resistance, I would presume that she just followed their trail and found the planet with the help of Leia's tracking device. Maybe a few too many connect the dots for your liking, but it can be pretty easily explained.
! Yeah, it is too many dots to connect for my liking. It can be explained, but it's a bit too big of a skip without at least a visual tease of Rey seeing an escape vessel in the midst of all the chaos.
! > So I guess we'll agree to differ on whether or not the breadcrumbs are still there. Yes, the potential for how Rey's parentage and Snoke's legacy could factor into the third film is murkier than Luke's parentage and Han's legacy in the original trilogy, but beyond the obvious of having to reconcile Obi-Wan's story and get some kind of indication on Han's ultimate fate, who could have honestly said where those plotlines would have gone in the next film? They could have been quickly resolved or turned into the main parts of the movie - thankfully it's the latter, and for the most part it did a good job. You yourself said that you didn't like how little the reveal about Rey's parentage influenced her for the rest of the movie, but who says it can't impact her in the next one? Luke's reaction to Vader's reveal was rather simple - just getting emotional and escaping, in addition to the brief mental connection the two shared at the end which didn't really indicate anything other than Luke's acceptance of the fact. Where Luke went with that was addressed in the next movie. That's why I'm less inclined to think all is said and done here. Plus Snoke's death sends Kylo going full steam ahead into the finale, so that's a lot of immediate potential right there.
! If the previous movies have good quality and are known for giving enough time for certain plot threads and beats, then it's understandable to give the benefit of the doubt to Return of the Jedi. Although I recognize your point of how it could have still gone awry. And it could impact her in the next film! I just wish there was more leeway to suggest that it could get expanded upon instead of me just hoping it gets expanded upon without much evidence. Even if we find out more about them, it doesn't change the lack of an effect the reveal has in this specific installment. And Luke's reaction to Vader got paid off onto the whole redemption storyline in the next film, made Luke's decision to refuse him more impactful, and helped the overall downer ending of The Empire Strikes Back tonally. Cross off the first point and you still have the latter two, and Luke couldn't do anything besides hang onto an antenna before getting rescued, which is where his role essentially ends. In contrast, we get enough focus on Rey saving the day at the end of The Last Jedi and an uplifting ending to not really get if there was any point to the reveal about Rey's parents besides the meta commentary of how you don't need a renowned bloodline to be special. Just sheer lucky odds, apparently.
! > This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the sequence as well. I can agree with the basic detractions that it's too long and its atmosphere is a bit jarring compared to the ones in the rest of the film. But given how it developed Finn's character, established Rose's, showed the First Order's pitfalls beyond its simple antagonism, looked stunning and was ultimately engaging even though its role might be questionable, its strengths outnumber its weaknesses for me. It reminded me a lot of Han and Leia camping out in the Sea Slug in Episode 5.
! It would have had more of an impact on me if it dug deeper into the royals aside from just seeing them party and Rose talk about them, along with more stuff about the Resistance profiting off of war too.
@desa:
I enjoyed the movie.
I felt like they were at least 3 plots in there but with the long 2h33mn there was time for this.
I didn't hate Finn and Rey which is pretty great improvement considering how much I hated them last time. Rey felt less like a mary sue to me.
Rey/Kylo is about the only thing I truly cared about in the movie and it was by far the most interesting to me.
Luke was strnge compared to where we left him from my point of view. Not a fan of where the movie leave him either.
The twist I enjoyed since it gives more space to the interesting part of the saga. Also like the reveal of Rey's lineage.
I mostly agree with your thoughts, but want to elaborate on a couple points.
! > Luke trying to kill his nephew doesn't make sense to me. 40 years ago he tried to reedeem his father when 2 wise old mentors told him he couldn't and he succeed. I have a hard time buying he would try to kill his nephew over conflict. Banish him from the school maybe but not kill him. And no I don't think being impulsive explain it. Impulsiveness is something I expect from young men plus it's not like Ben was taunting him or a master manipulator (which the emperor suposedely was). The kid was sleeping.
! Agreed.
! > Pass that I will say I loved the 3 flashback. It proved the shame of Luke, the horror of this awful betrayal for Ben and the consequence of a moment of doubt. Plus it helps me get more invested in the tantrum kid. I was never invested by grandson of the general of Hitler wants to be like him. But betrayal of the one family member I can definitely get behind.
! Agreed.
! > I didn't mind the map. You can just consider he was the one to shut down with the force R2D2 and Rey open it up with her force powers.
! Agreed.
! > I don't get people invested enough to hate snoke's death. The emperor wasn't a thing in the original trilogy. It was all about Vador. The only thing the emperor serve was a tool to make the redemption more challenging but you were not suppose to get invested in him as a character.
! I don't mind Snoke getting killed. Moreso how I don't buy the way he got killed and it's hard for me to not wonder where this guy came from when he has all of the mystery the Emperor had, but also coming after the status-quo of the original trilogy, also being a copycat, also not being a Jedi or Sith yet still being strong in the Force, and also influencing Ben under Luke's nose somehow. It's too much for me to accept without question like with the Emperor. And at least the Emperor had a fun hammy personality lol.
! > I liked the death because it gives more place to Rey and Kylo and I am much more interested in that than whatever BS that was going with Snoke's planning.
! I am too.
! > Everything about the connection between Rey and Kylo I liked. Anything between Luke and rey I didn't care much. Most were stuff I would think Luke should know and Rey didn't get much teaching.
! Agreed. Although the Force gag was great, and I liked him commenting on the Jedi's flaws even if I don't like his fall from grace.
! > Rey not having great lineage is definitely a plus.
! Eh, I would've preferred getting that over with in the first film than dragging it out this long. Doesn't really add much to Rey's character anyways, because she barely has character to begin with. Also doesn't explain why she's so skilled, even if she lost to Snoke and Ben was having physical and emotional issues in the end fight of The Force Awakens. Like Snoke said, she still held a lightsaber for less than a day.
! > By being less of a Mary Sue I mean she didn't ace'd anything for the first part of the movie. Her and Kylo are simply 2 young people having a real discussion, she gets corrected by Luke about the force, get play around by snoke and I consider Kylo did better with the guards. The only moment of Mary suing was the rock thing that should simply have been given to Leia.
! Agreed.
! > Leia should have died either in medical bay after contacting Luke or at last assault as a sacrifice. In Space would have been silly since Kylo did not take the shot.
! Sort of agree, but at least Poe got enough build up to believably take over her position as leader for the third film.
! > I didn't mind Finn during the movie or think he was a coward. His friend Rey was going to get captured if she came to that position so he tried to change the position of the beacon. Felt a little long but I liked that Poe wasn't right and his recklessness caused trouble. Altough I am not sure why it had to be kept a secret.
! Agreed.
! > I liked that Luke didn't sacrifice himself against Kylo since there was no reason to. But then he dies anyway which than begs the question why the whole projection thing? I mean it means Leia never actually reunited with Luke but some cheap copy who gave her fake dice which seems weird. I believe he should either have been there and die or do the astral thing and live.
! I'm still okay with it, although I get why it was redundant. Sending in a Force hologram stalled for more time, while real Luke would have been decimated by that first onslaught of laser fire. We already saw Han get killed by Kylo, I'd rather have Luke do something different. And at least the binary sunset scenery was gorgeous and brought back nostalgia that made it feel like Luke came full circle in his adventures.
! > Force ghost have physical powers now which could end up being quite problematic if not handled well. And Yoda lecturing Luke about how evolving is weird since I am pretty sure that was the whole point of Luke doing things his way and not listenning to Yoda and Obi-Wan.
! Yeah, that was weird. Although still funny lol. It's also ironic when you consider how Force Lightning is a Dark Side power…
So yeah I enjoyed but it was flawed.
That's my opinion too.
who are protecting the fanbase from any originality that might force them to step outside their franchise comfort zones.
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