Talk Religion And Be Nice About It

[Femme]

[hide]@Lord:

1. ok, that makes sense.
2. the graves weren't marked, right? couldn't someone dig up a body by accident?
3. those aren't pre-islamic though, could you tell me witch ones you mean maybe i missed them.
also your link says:

Also seems infanticide was a problem in a few tribes and islam stoped it, but that wasn't really revolutionary and doesn't change that islam is deeply misogynistic.

2. I guess graves can be dug up by accident, but if they were, and I'm sure regular adult graves were dug into at some point in across the region, how much analysis is going to go into identifying the bones afterwards? If it was Saudi finding bones they'd probably stop digging or just not report it to the public. If we're talking Meccan tribes that did this practice, then the unwillingness of Saudis to actually identify bones in graves is a legitimate problem, because there wouldn't be enough information published about this.

3. Yeah, the poems near the beginning that are apparently pre-Islamic don't say infanticide, but honestly how much evidence will you need to conclude that this was a common enough practice in Arabia? At the beginning of this discussion you started off with the opinion that it didn't exist, now you're saying it did exist but it was exaggerated?

Your point is that you think that Muhammad wrote about this in like 2-3 verses in the Quran to exaggerate the pagan tribes' mistreatment of women, am I right? But last time I checked, the Muslims never used this issue as the driving reason to meet the pagan tribes in battle. It was just a practice that was abolished in Islam, and no one made a fuss about it until a few people mentioned they did it in past or they saved babies in past.

If it were such a big issue of slander, then of the many hadiths that record the verbal accounts of the Quraysh's criticism of Muhammad (and their criticism was harsh in the hadiths), they would have mentioned "You are slandering us about killing our female babies!" And that never happened, because they knew it was an issue in their society. [/hide]

Also I just want to say, Gaimon, is that I appreciate that we have kept our discussion civil. I've actually learned a lot from this discussion and I've never debated about these issues before, so it's given me a good chance to flex my brain muscles and recall all this knowledge which is stored somewhere in the back of my mind, which I've been in need of lately.

[xan]

I know I am invoking an exhausted thread again but I had a question which can be up for a mini discussion probably

What do you think would happen to religion in the next 1000 to 2000 years?

Some of the factors which might determine the next 2k years as compared to the changes which have happened over the past 2k years - ideological reformation, speed of communication and information exchange, increased inclination towards science, transition to provide more power to state than to religious leaders and increased shift towards nationalism

Whether these factors might affect or not or to the extent to which these factors might affect can be debatable. So I wanted to hear out some thoughts as to where religion will end up in the future

[RoboBlue]

I think the basic form and function of a faith-based system of beliefs will still exist, but the concept of a God or gods may change.

[xan]

@RoboBlue:

I think the basic form and function of a faith-based system of beliefs will still exist, but the concept of a God or gods may change.

I believe faith based system of beliefs are necessary so that humans don't end up indulging in self destructing behaviors so yeah some basic form might exist. The concept of God might probably be interpreted in a less ominous way perhaps and not in an omnipotent way as it is interpreted now.

At least throughout history there has always been a sine wave of highs and lows when it comes to any ideology. I wonder if religion might in any time have the kind of heyday it had centuries earlier or surrender its grip over people to nationalism

[sggupta]

@xan:

I know I am invoking an exhausted thread again but I had a question which can be up for a mini discussion probably

What do you think would happen to religion in the next 1000 to 2000 years?

Some of the factors which might determine the next 2k years as compared to the changes which have happened over the past 2k years - ideological reformation, speed of communication and information exchange, increased inclination towards science, transition to provide more power to state than to religious leaders and increased shift towards nationalism

Whether these factors might affect or not or to the extent to which these factors might affect can be debatable. So I wanted to hear out some thoughts as to where religion will end up in the future

I think religion has always been about,to some extent, a divine power,all powerful,all knowing existence.We have always worshipped an existence to make sense of the world around us,and because we seemed to be powerless.

Now humans are much,much more powerful and have the greatest understanding about the world than ever before.We are becoming much more like the Gods we worshipped.The difference between man and god is thinning.If i take the 3 aspects of Gods that i consider are present in religion(inspired from the Trimurti) are:
1.Creation
2.Preservation
3.Destruction

Now Destruction has already been mastered by us.We can destroy our entire world anytime now.The power to plunge the world into chaos is with us

Creation is currently not completely in the grasp of mankind,but we are getting there.genetic engineering and Genetic modification are already present.Soon we may even attain Divine mastery of this filed,and may even get the ability to bring into existence completely different forms of life.

And now about Preservation.I feel it is the hardest aspect of divinity to attain.Perhaps that is why Vishnu is highly regarded.But in the timespan of 1000 to 2000 years we may as well have the power to control the reality to such an extent that preserving and maintaining the world in any manner which we desire.

All of this is contingent obviously on how much ower can humanity as a whole get through technology and science in the coming time.As in,what is the upper limit of the potential of science and technology.
If we assume the upper limit to be substantially high,them i feel religion would be pretty meaningless.
Now any new ideology or philosphy will focus on us as central figures to the universe.

While i am including Hindu ideology in my argument,i feel that the trifecta of the aspects of Creation,Preservation and Destruction in Divinity are pretty universal in some form or other.

Tl:Dr God is dead.We will become the New God

[RoboBlue]

@sggupta:

Now Destruction has already been mastered by us.We can destroy our entire world anytime now.The power to plunge the world into chaos is with us

I don't believe we've even mastered that. We can destroy the larger human creations, but itself finds amazing ways to survive. We cannot yet recreate the devastation of the Oxygen Catastrophe, the Permean mass extinction or the Chicxulub asteroid impact that killed the Dinosaurs.

As far as smaller human creations go, I wouldn't be surprised to see copies of Super Mario Bros survive a nuclear apocalypse.

[sggupta]

@RoboBlue:

I don't believe we've even mastered that. We can destroy the larger human creations, but itself finds amazing ways to survive. We cannot yet recreate the devastation of the Oxygen Catastrophe, the Permean mass extinction or the Chicxulub asteroid impact that killed the Dinosaurs.

As far as smaller human creations go, I wouldn't be surprised to see copies of Super Mario Bros survive a nuclear apocalypse.

hmm,mastered was maybe the wrong word.Sufficiently adept at would be more like it.

While i think that there is definitely room for improvement,i think at the current time we do possess sufficient power to fuck up our world,maybe not as much as the universe does but still our current power is frankly frightening.

But anyway,if human advances continue at this pace and don't hit a glass ceiling,i think we would definitely master Destruction,along with creation and maybe even Preservation.

[Femme]

@AfroSamurai:

Out of curiosity, what should you do, as a Muslim, if the laws of the country you live in and Sharia law were to conflict? I'd love it for you to elucidate this point for me.

I've always regarded Sharia with a certain level of skepticism due to the treating of women as second class citizens within Sharia divorce proceedings, the anti-homosexuality stance of Sharia, and the punishments for leaving the faith.

But I'd never heard about the tenet for 'obeying the laws of the country you live in'. That seems like quite an important one that muslims should advertise more if they want to convince the wider public that Sharia is indeed not 'bad' or 'incoherent with western values'

Could you elaborate on it some more? Genuinely curious.

EDITED: to add more reasons why i'm skeptical about sharia.

Answering this here instead of the politics thread.

Ok first of all, it's important to note that sharia is just a system of judicial laws that were necessary in Islam because unlike Christianity, Islam was established among a thriving society, so to establish order rules were necessary just like any other society.

Second, sharia is a compilation of statements in the Quran and made by the prophet Muhammad pbuh on certain matters, such as the rules for giving out inheritance, business transactions, etc.

The world has made "sharia" such a scary and negative word, honestly, but to Muslims it's just a world that encapsulates all of the ways that we are taught how to live and interact with the world.

So let's get into it:

Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is necessary upon a Muslim to listen to and obey the ruler, as long as one is not ordered to carry out a sin. If he is commanded to commit a sin, then there is no adherence and obedience.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2796 & Sunan Tirmidhi)

There isn't any laws in western society that I can think of that is considered a sin, though, honestly. If compromises can be made, then we make them, and if one is forced or threatened to do something contrary to the beliefs in Islam then that is acting under compulsion and we are commanded to preserve our lives.

Even things like rules for burials are obeyed by Muslims in the west. Traditionally, in Islam people are buried wrapped in a white cloth. In Canada, you cannot bury a body without a coffin, so Canadian Muslims bury their dead in coffins. Simple.

If it was some sort of law forcing us to worship such and such entity, or like I dunno, every Tuesday all adults must drink a beer, then we don't follow it, cuz that's considered a sin. A better example is like home ownership, which mostly requires mortgages these days, but in Islamic law usury (interest) is prohibited, so Halal (permissible) loan services were established for those wanting to buy a house without paying interest.

So basically we compromise when we can, and use alternatives when we can, and otherwise obey all other laws of the land.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Oh, I thought of a better example. In my city there's a big hullabaloo because a bunch of racists found out that Muslim kids in public high schools have been using a spare room on their lunch breaks, under volunteered teacher supervision (aka teachers supervised the 10 min prayer on their lunch breaks), to pray their Friday prayers for the last 15 years, and there's been calls to have laws enacted banning prayer in schools.

Prayers are part of Islamic law too, so if prayers were to be banned from schools, students would simply leave the school grounds at lunch time and go somewhere else to pray. It's really that easy.

[wolfwood]

Tell me more about these no interest mortgages.

That and the voluntary ignoring of neighbours are good selling points to me

[Femme]

@wolfwood:

Tell me more about these no interest mortgages.

That and the voluntary ignoring of neighbours are good selling points to me

Lol. Well there's different ways to go about it, but it's privately established loan services where basically the company buys the house for you, and you pay back the company the loaned amount and set fees, not fees based on interest. The fees are known to you from the beginning and you usually have to put down a larger deposit at the beginning.

All in all it's not really saving you money here in this society, cuz mortgages are basically the only way to go. In Muslim countries I hear the loan system is way different but also not based on interest.

[Monkey King]

@wolfwood:

Tell me more about these no interest mortgages.

That and the voluntary ignoring of neighbours are good selling points to me

Christianity was historically the same way about money lending, leery as hell about it as predatory and sinful.

I'll give you one guess as to how the Jews ended up disproportionally working that profession in ye olde Europe.

[Lord Gaimon]

@Femme:

Oh, I thought of a better example. In my city there's a big hullabaloo because a bunch of racists found out that Muslim kids in public high schools have been using a spare room on their lunch breaks, under volunteered teacher supervision (aka teachers supervised the 10 min prayer on their lunch breaks), to pray their Friday prayers for the last 15 years, and there's been calls to have laws enacted banning prayer in schools.

Prayers are part of Islamic law too, so if prayers were to be banned from schools, students would simply leave the school grounds at lunch time and go somewhere else to pray. It's really that easy.

It seems that young canadian muslims are more dedicated than tunisians lol

[Femme]

@Lord:

It seems that young canadian muslims are more dedicated than tunisians lol

Well to be fair it's not a lot of them. When I was in high school I went a few times and there were under 10 kids. I'm sure it's probably the same around now, most muslim teens these days aren't that devout to be praying when their parents aren't there to tell them to :P

[Strooger]

@Monkey:

Christianity was historically the same way about money lending, leery as hell about it as predatory and sinful.

I'll give you one guess as to how the Jews ended up disproportionally working that profession in ye olde Europe.

and thus began all the anti-Semitic crankery about banks that's survived to this day. :ninja:

[Monkey King]

@Strooger:

and thus began all the anti-Semitic crankery about banks that's survived to this day. :ninja:

Yup. In the first half of the 20th century in the US, when we had major Jewish immigration, similar racism kept them out of many types of jobs and so they worked into areas where there was less pushback. One of which was the entertainment industry, movies, pop music, and theater for instance (and even very notable amounts in comic books and comedy!).
Some also decided that instead of writing stupid cutesy love songs, and doing standup, that they would rather work with other contemporarily marginazlied immigrant communities and work by the sweat of their brows and doing of hard deeds.
So the mafia had a Jewish element working with the Italians lol.
Now THEM EVIL JEWS CONTROL HOLLYWOOD. Because of course. Though thankfully Italian-Americans refused to let mafia stereotypes be surrendered to anyone else.

[NER]

Omg my thread! I will talk here lots of religion talk that I been keeping inside for a lack of space to talk about it in. I want you when you read my posts here to know that I am very entitled to my opinions due to living in a country where religion is controlling all aspects of my life (more or less)

Okay. I don't hate religion, because I believe everyone has one. A religion in my belief (Which changes more often than you think) is whatever a person believe in and depend on to give their lives validation. I am trying to do Esport things in the barren desert that is the entertainment scene in this country I live in. Esports became pretty much my religion. I talk about and defend it not that differently than a Muslim fundamentalist defends Wahabism.

With that being said, I must tell you what I think and feel towards Islam. I think its fake. It just makes sense that its not real. I went through many different phases, from being a Muslim, to being a skeptical one, into being a Muslim with very peculiar beliefs, and currently I am just a guy who wants to live (And do Esport events and cool stuff?)
Islam makes sense only in the sense that it was created to control people, gain political power, and wealth. It stayed alive because of two factors mainly: 1- People need something to believe in. 2- Leaders need to control said people.
And before you think my view is too shallow or simplistic, just be aware that when I talk of leaders seeking control and people needing a belief to fight for, they do not do it consciously. The leaders may very well believe in this religion they are controlling the masses through, thinking what they're doing is beneficial for all.

I'll end this post here for now and I will try to update it later because I really have a lot more to say in the context of where I live + More thoughts about human nature and how is religion is pretty much integrated into it .

[Monkey King]

@NER:

Omg my thread! I will talk here lots of religion talk that I been keeping inside for a lack of space to talk about it in. I want you when you read my posts here to know that I am very entitled to my opinions due to living in a country where religion is controlling all aspects of my life (more or less)

Okay. I don't hate religion, because I believe everyone has one. A religion in my belief (Which changes more often than you think) is whatever a person believe in and depend on to give their lives validation. I am trying to do Esport things in the barren desert that is the entertainment scene in this country I live in. Esports became pretty much my religion. I talk about and defend it not that differently than a Muslim fundamentalist defends Wahabism.

With that being said, I must tell you what I think and feel towards Islam. I think its fake. It just makes sense that its not real. I went through many different phases, from being a Muslim, to being a skeptical one, into being a Muslim with very peculiar beliefs, and currently I am just a guy who wants to live (And do Esport events and cool stuff?)
Islam makes sense only in the sense that it was created to control people, gain political power, and wealth. It stayed alive because of two factors mainly: 1- People need something to believe in. 2- Leaders need to control said people.
And before you think my view is too shallow or simplistic, just be aware that when I talk of leaders seeking control and people needing a belief to fight for, they do not do it consciously. The leaders may very well believe in this religion they are controlling the masses through, thinking what they're doing is beneficial for all.

I'll end this post here for now and I will try to update it later because I really have a lot more to say in the context of where I live + More thoughts about human nature and how is religion is pretty much integrated into it .

A thought or two.

1. Uh…is it safe to post that? From in SA? 0_o
2. Do you think that if you grew up in a place like say Bosnia or Azerbaijan, where people are very relaxed about Islam, that you might look at religion differently? Islam specifically? Not saying you would follow it or believe in it. But perhaps not look at so cynically? I would ask the same thing to someone making a post like that about Christianity if they grew up in rural Alabama, Northern Ireland, or Poland for perspective.

[BWYYWLTGHR]

@NER:

Okay. I don't hate religion, because I believe everyone has one. A religion in my belief (Which changes more often than you think) is whatever a person believe in and depend on to give their lives validation.

A rather strange definition of religion I think, it sounds more like… Eh, "existensberättigande", what is the English word... "Raison d'être"? :silly: That is, "reason for being." Anyway, I don't have any of it, I need no meaning nor validation for my life.

With that being said, I must tell you what I think and feel towards Islam. I think its fake. It just makes sense that its not real. I went through many different phases, from being a Muslim, to being a skeptical one, into being a Muslim with very peculiar beliefs, and currently I am just a guy who wants to live (And do Esport events and cool stuff?)

I'm with you there, I believe the same for not only all religion but all supernatural things. And welcome to atheism I suppose? :)

Islam makes sense only in the sense that it was created to control people, gain political power, and wealth. It stayed alive because of two factors mainly: 1- People need something to believe in. 2- Leaders need to control said people.
And before you think my view is too shallow or simplistic, just be aware that when I talk of leaders seeking control and people needing a belief to fight for, they do not do it consciously. The leaders may very well believe in this religion they are controlling the masses through, thinking what they're doing is beneficial for all.

I do think that your view is a bit simplistic. I'm sure the reasons you stated are a big part of religion but there are others that I believe are even more so. The good things religion brings, the good morals, helping others and such. A sense of community. Cool traditions and culture. Lots of stuff that is great.

[Monkey King]

Religion is almost invariably ugly when it becomes a lockstep expected communal norm. And poor Ner lives in one of the absolute worst examples of that on the planet short of ISIS territory.

[BWYYWLTGHR]

@Monkey:

Religion is almost invariably ugly when it becomes a lockstep expected communal norm. And poor Ner lives in one of the absolute worst examples of that on the planet short of ISIS territory.

Sure, but what isn't ugly when it becomes a lockstep expected communal norm? And I do realize that Ner might have some real horrendous experiences with religion. I hope I didn't seem too dismissive of him or anything.

[Monkey King]

@BWYYWLTGHR:

Sure, but what isn't ugly when it becomes a lockstep expected communal norm?

It doesn't even need to be Saudi levels. Even the basic Bible Belt form is pretty bad. I've long maintained that the difference in religious conservatism in the Northeast US compared to the South has a lot to do with this cultural difference.
I also think a good theory for Northern Ireland's extreme religious conservatism relative to the rest of the UK (with it's Protestantism being far far far more conservative than the rest of Protestant Europe) is that the civil conflict there contributed to a greater sense of communal lockstep everything. Which in turn results in the state of things there as we know it.
I would offer the relatively conservativism on some topics religion wise in the Irish Republic has some roots in Catholicism being likewise communally entrenched through a sense of nationalism in their recent history. Even if obviously not as fraught and high stakes as Northern Ireland.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Hell I'll extend that theory to the Arab world as a whole.

Though this is by no means a perfect theory, I mean, I beleive it explains this sort of thing some places. But not all cornered communities turn out that way. So it maybe just one factor.

[NER]

@Monkey:

A thought or two.

1. Uh…is it safe to post that? From in SA? 0_o
2. Do you think that if you grew up in a place like say Bosnia or Azerbaijan, where people are very relaxed about Islam, that you might look at religion differently? Islam specifically? Not saying you would follow it or believe in it. But perhaps not look at so cynically? I would ask the same thing to someone making a post like that about Christianity if they grew up in rural Alabama, Northern Ireland, or Poland for perspective.

1- I hope so.
2- To answer your question: of course my perspective won't be the same. I live in a place dictated by religion and I am deprived of a lot of the joys of life y'all here take for granted. I

I do want to point out that I am no where near as cynical as you may think, whether you judge me for what I believe in or compare me to others. I'll talk more in depth later.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@BWYYWLTGHR:

Sure, but what isn't ugly when it becomes a lockstep expected communal norm? And I do realize that Ner might have some real horrendous experiences with religion. I hope I didn't seem too dismissive of him or anything.

You didn't, and I am nowhere near done with the explanations of my philosophies so it is easy to expect people reacting to my thoughts the way you did, its fine.

[Femme]

It really is such a different experience being born in a family or country where you're forced to practice religion instead of choosing to do so by choice. I probably wouldn't have the same attitudes towards religion had I been born in a muslim country and forced to practice Islam. I'm not the perfect example of a muslim by any means, but to me, Islam's beauty really shines when a person chooses to study it, believe it, and practice it completely of their own free will.

I've heard people moving here to Canada from muslim majority countries saying that they were not or were barely practicing Islam before coming here and being shocked by how small communities go out of their way to practice, and how they were inspired by them to become more devout.

It's an odd observation but it makes sense. When you do something out of love and devotion then you find it more meaningful to your life, but when you do something because you're told to, it doesn't affect you the same way.

[Hanz]

@NER:
you've been burned out by how much of the religion is shoved down on you, i get it. but you have to understand that it has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the people who enforce it upon you. even the coolest of things will seem shitty once they've been forced upon someone.
in short, islam is not to blame here but it's strict practitioners are.
@NER:

Islam makes sense only in the sense that it was created to control people, gain political power, and wealth. It stayed alive because of two factors mainly: 1- People need something to believe in. 2- Leaders need to control said people.
And before you think my view is too shallow or simplistic, just be aware that when I talk of leaders seeking control and people needing a belief to fight for, they do not do it consciously. The leaders may very well believe in this religion they are controlling the masses through, thinking what they're doing is beneficial for all.

manipulative people have tons of things they can exploit to control others, it's not just religion.
outside of saudia arabia and isis i've never actually seen any leader use islam to force orders on people. actually, fear and intimidation are mostly the methods dictators use and not religion.
so yeah im not sure about your point.

[NER]

@Hanz:

manipulative people have tons of things they can exploit to control others, it's not just religion.
outside of saudia arabia and isis i've never actually seen any leader use islam to force orders on people. actually, fear and intimidation are mostly the methods dictators use and not religion.
so yeah im not sure about your point.

I know fully well that religion is not the only thing one can exploit to control the masses, but its been proven historically to be the best, if only because its something totally intangible.
I think religions make the best tools to control people because you have to fight to prove them, since there is literally no other way to do it. Its a twisted and sickening yet the most human of all paradoxes. I always believed that crusaders never fight and war to prove their religions to others, more so than they do it to prove them to themselves. If I risk my life for something, if I see both the blood of my friends and enemies being spilled, how can this religion be fake? If I fast from food, drinks, and sex half of my days during Ramadan, how can Islam be fake? You keep fighting (preaching, fasting, praying, doing haj, visiting a church, etc) because it is the only way you can silence your doubts in what you believe in.

Like I said before, religion is to me anything that one believe in to push them forward and gives their lives reason and validation. There is a huge number of Saudis who claim that they're Muslims, but its so apparent that what they actually worship is the status quo and the traditions of those who preceded them. That's very evident with Hijab. Only one of the top four Muslim scholars saw it as a must to cover a female's face, and there are several evidences that women even in the days of the prophet did not cover their faces and that the idea of today's hijab was born of nothing more than misteachings and misconceptions that grew stupidly large in the past 300~ years or so. Yet if you try to argue with a typical Saudi about this you should be prepared for an insane lash out by them.

Last thing I feel like addressing currently (I wish I could just document all and each of my thoughts but TIME ugh) is your "islam is not to blame here but it's strict practitioners are."
I'll go the extra mile and give you some context: there isn't anything against females working or showing their faces in Quran and Trusted hadiths (Words and sayings) of the prophet. But you want to know what undisputedly is said in them?
1- Females cannot marry without the consent of a male guardian
2- In court, the testimony of a female has only half of the value of that of a male.
3- If a father dies, males take generally 50% more of the inheritance that females would.
4- Homosexuality is punished by death.

These four things I can provide you (or you can pay the effort to do your research) with Islamic texts that support them undisputedly.

I know it can easily be thought that I am bitter at Islam for giving me a limited and worse life than I could have had otherwise, but my current thoughts and beliefs are way more thought out and objective than that. I am very certain of this.

[Femme]

There are historical and logical reasons for all of those points but personally I don't really feel like debating.
I'm sorry that your experience with religion has been so negative. The Saudi culture of Islam has had a really bad effect on you, as I understand. The niqab/women working/driving isn't a thing anywhere else in the world so sometimes I can hardly understand an entire country to not have improved in those matters for eons.

But instead of analyzing all the cultural Saudi additions to Islam, how about the basics? Do you believe in God or a higher power at all?

(Also I just want to note, following MK's comment, if you feel unsafe continuing this discussion then please don't feel obligated to continue, and posts can be deleted.)

[NER]

@Femme:

There are historical and logical reasons for all of those points but personally I don't really feel like debating.
I'm sorry that your experience with religion has been so negative. The Saudi culture of Islam has had a really bad effect on you, as I understand. The niqab/women working/driving isn't a thing anywhere else in the world so sometimes I can hardly understand an entire country to not have improved in those matters for eons.

But instead of analyzing all the cultural Saudi additions to Islam, how about the basics? Do you believe in God or a higher power at all?

(Also I just want to note, following MK's comment, if you feel unsafe continuing this discussion then please don't feel obligated to continue, and posts can be deleted.)

I don't think it's my experience being negative is most of the reason I'm saying what I am. I'm not being bashful or hateful of others and I honestly try to be as objective as my situation allows me to be. My thoughts on how religions function within us are separable enough from the fact I'm Saudi and all I think.

Regarding whether or not I believe in God, I don't really know. The question of creation and how the world came to be is not one I think is that relevant, for example. And regarding God, I don't think one exists solely because I don't think we are important enough for a higher power to care about overseeing and judging us.

[Monkey King]

@NER:

I don't think it's my experience being negative is most of the reason I'm saying what I am. I'm not being bashful or hateful of others and I honestly try to be as objective as my situation allows me to be. My thoughts on how religions function within us are separable enough from the fact I'm Saudi and all I think.

Regarding whether or not I believe in God, I don't really know. The question of creation and how the world came to be is not one I think is that relevant, for example. And regarding God, I don't think one exists solely because I don't think we are important enough for a higher power to care about overseeing and judging us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

[Nilitch]

btw, why aren't "all" Christians doing the Lent like Muslims do the Ramadan?

[firelord111]

I believe that jihad main reason was to encourage people defend themselves when the are attacked and the main purpose of all real religions are so that people live a healthy life and don't kill each other for things like greed

[BWYYWLTGHR]

@NER:

I know fully well that religion is not the only thing one can exploit to control the masses, but its been proven historically to be the best, if only because its something totally intangible.

How so? How do you even seperate religion from the culture at large? Even in a modern context it's not something I would wish even on my worst enemies(well, maybe I would if I had any). Let alone in a historical context.

@Femme:

There are historical and logical reasons for all of those points but personally I don't really feel like debating.

There most certainly are no logical reasons for any of those points. Females are equal to male and there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

@NER:

Regarding whether or not I believe in God, I don't really know. The question of creation and how the world came to be is not one I think is that relevant, for example. And regarding God, I don't think one exists solely because I don't think we are important enough for a higher power to care about overseeing and judging us.

The question of creation and how the world came to be is highly relevant. Modern medicine have tight bonds with evolution. All of science is interconnected to a very high degree. And as an e-sporter I hope I don't have to debate you on the relevance of science? :P
As for gods existence, if god had existed and were of the omnipotent kind, overseeing us and judging us would be effortless for him. Myself, I don't believe that he exists because there is no proof to suggest that he does. It's the old flying teapot of Bertrand Russell, I'll quote him here because,

I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist. I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely.

[sggupta]

I see that every discussion about religion invariably turns to "existence of God".

Personally,i think it's a very reductionist way of going about things.All religion wouldn't become meaningless even if there was no tangible,cohesive entity called God,that isn't the only way how Gods are supposed to be understood.

maybe Gods are just representation of natural forces and energy?

If you look back,many gods were based on naturally occurring phenomena.The Egyptians had a huge cult of worship around the Sun God.The Sun as a motif is very prevalent across religions.Some pagans even worship fire,trees,animals,and many other objects.

Even if you look at Gods that often resemble a human-like figure,they can just be manifestations of various energies/forces in the world.

so i find that reducing Religion to just a question of "Is God Real? not really useful.Maybe "God" is a device for us to understand the world?maybe it's all a big metaphor?

If I risk my life for something, if I see both the blood of my friends and enemies being spilled, how can this religion be fake? If I fast from food, drinks, and sex half of my days during Ramadan, how can Islam be fake? You keep fighting (preaching, fasting, praying, doing haj, visiting a church, etc) because it is the only way you can silence your doubts in what you believe in.

Like I said before, religion is to me anything that one believe in to push them forward and gives their lives reason and validation.

that's a nice way you put it.

[BWYYWLTGHR]

@sggupta:

Personally,i think it's a very reductionist way of going about things.All religion wouldn't become meaningless even if there was no tangible,cohesive entity called God,that isn't the only way how Gods are supposed to be understood.

Dunno about you, but I find it a good idea to establish the more basic facts first. The existence of a god being one such. If you prefer, it could be any supernatural thing though. Any religion claiming such a thing is wrong of course, but as I've said before I don't think that that makes the religion meaningless. There are lots of things I like about religion… But they are wrong and thus I dunno why anyone would bother with them. :p

[sggupta]

@BWYYWLTGHR:

If you prefer, it could be any supernatural thing though.

no,not necessarily a "supernatural" thing.maybe you think that what i am referring to is "supernatural",but again that's not necessarily the case.

As i pointed out,is the Sun supernatural?is fire supernatural?are trees supernatural?

Nature is not supernatural. And nature gives us energy,we survive by nature.That is not a supernatural concept,that is reality.and nature worship is a part of many religions,past and present

maybe "energy" is seemingly supernatural to you,but what about human consciousness then?It is a very much real and poorly understood entity,and spirituality and religion both try to make sense of it.maybe they are wrong,maybe they are not.depends on specifics imo.

but regardless as i said maybe it's all a big metaphor.I find concentrating on being literal about religion can be missing the point completely.

[BWYYWLTGHR]

@sggupta:

and nature worship is a part of many religions,past and present

They ascribe supernatural characteristics to them though.

maybe "energy" is seemingly supernatural to you,but what about human consciousness then?It is a very much real and poorly understood entity,and spirituality and religion both try to make sense of it.maybe they are wrong,maybe they are not.depends on specifics imo.

I'm not sure what you mean by "energy", but if you speak of energy as in, say, kinetic or thermal, then no, that doesn't seem supernatural at all to me. It's one of the fundamentals of the natural world.
Human consciousness is nothing but neurons communicating. Science is also trying to figure the brain out.

but regardless as i said maybe it's all a big metaphor.I find concentrating on being literal about religion can be missing the point completely.

What is a metaphor for then? And what is the point?

[sggupta]

@BWYYWLTGHR:

They ascribe supernatural characteristics to them though.

not necessarily.they just portray them symbolically.Like,what supernatural charactersticks would you need to ascribe to the sun?it is the epitome of power!and even 500 years back,the sun's power was unparalleled.Now you may think it is not that necessary for survival with the advance of technology,but back then it was already akin to a supernatural being

What is a metaphor for then?

like for example,poseidon represented the ocean.Indra and ares represents war

[NER]

@BWYYWLTGHR:

Two points

For the first quote: I don't know what I am supposed to say to this exactly

For the second one: I meant its not relevant in an existential level. I know a lot of folks who went from being Muslims to Atheists/Agnostic, and then back to being Muslims just because the question of where the world came to be daunted them too much and they needed to believe that some mighty being above the cloud created it and gave it (and thus also these individuals existence) a clear definitive purpose.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@firelord111:

I believe that jihad main reason was to encourage people defend themselves when the are attacked and the main purpose of all real religions are so that people live a healthy life and don't kill each other for things like greed

This is wrong. Mohammad did not condone fighting for the sole purpose of spreading Islam and expanding its territorial presence. On the contrary, dying while in Jihad is one of the greatest things a Muslim can hope to achieve.

[firelord111]

The reason prophet had wars was that he and Muslims were being attacked so he in order to stop it he attacked to defend themselves
Attacking other countries just for expanding religion is wrong nobody is gonna really support a beliefif they lose someone for it

[Monkey King]

The expansions of the early Muslims really weren't much about spreading religion anyway, mostly because uh….they didn't really convert the populations they conquered right away. It took a long long time for places like Egypt, North Africa, and the Levant to covert to Islam from Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Christianity. And some people never even did, ergo the Christian populations that still exist in these locations.
Things were a little different in Iran, because there was less protection given to Zoroastrians, but the main population wasn't exactly ZOROASTRIAN since it was kind of a secretive priest monopoly type religion, rather than something heavily integrated into the lives of day to day people.

Local Arabian paganism got kiboshed though. But hey if there's one thing all the Abrahamic religions agree on, it was kiboshing pagans.

[RoboBlue]

@Nilitch:

btw, why aren't "all" Christians doing the Lent like Muslims do the Ramadan?

Many Christians are very casual with their beliefs and practices. Lent is a pain.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

@Nilitch:

btw, why aren't "all" Christians doing the Lent like Muslims do the Ramadan?

Not all Christian denominations recognize Lent as an observance. I don't think the Bible commands Christians to observe something like it.

[Monkey King]

@Kaido:

Not all Christian denominations recognize Lent as an observance. I don't think the Bible commands Christians to observe something like it.

Yeah, its widespread but not all Protestant sects observe it.

[Lord Gaimon]

Not all muslims fast either, most smokers (the majority of men in my country) don't do it.

[Monkey King]

@Lord:

Not all muslims fast either, most smokers (the majority of men in my country) don't do it.

Is there any sect/school or anything like that in Islam that doesn't observe Ramadan though?

[Lord Gaimon]

@Monkey:

Is there any sect/school or anything like that in Islam that doesn't observe Ramadan though?

No i don't think so since it's mentioned in the quran.

[akagami7]

In Spain, the only special thing catholics do during Lent is not eating meat on Fridays, nothing else that I'm aware of.

[Monkey King]

@akagami7:

In Spain, the only special thing catholics do during Lent is not eating meat on Fridays, nothing else that I'm aware of.

Yeah, that's the other thing. Lent practices differ around the globe and so on. Lent is pretty hardcore in Cyprus, and not eating meat on Fridays and Wednesdays is a year round practice lol.

[C_uggs]

I used to be an atheist, or, in actual terms, someone who didn't had a religion, my family and the schools that I went taught me about Jesus and Christianity, but everything I learned from them were vague and disconnected.

In the past, I used to had a thought that god was a person, that if I prayed to god, I would be talking (or more likely, asking for something) to someone. Until recentely I figured it out something that changed my whole idea about religion. This is, that god is not a person, god is a concept. I always thought that compassion (for exemple) was something human, its not, its religious.

I know some atheists, and what I found funny is that, they talk about Christian morals not knowing that its Christians morals, thinking its something everyone has.

Now I know that I am a pile of shit compared to Jesus and I probably will not go to heaven (that is, if I believed in heaven and hell) nevertheless, I am a Christian because of who I am, I was always a Christian and I never knew.

Edit:
~Just a minor correction~
I said "Christian morals" because that is my religion, a better term would be "religious morals".

[Nilitch]

Agnostics are the worst though.

[C_uggs]

At least they believe in something, it's a start.